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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1560
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:24 pm 
 

Oh, god...

1. I am 38 years old and I've been listening to thrash since 1986 thanks to sharing a room with a big brother, building my own personal collection since 1989. I was into Municipal Waste and Hypnosia when they came out.

2. Fuck your strawmen:
Quote:
"The idea of going, "yeah, this is OK. But it's not better than The Legacy!", and then going to listen to The Legacy for the 4,059th time sounds depressing to me."

AGAIN, you ignored anything I had to say about new bands. Listen man, if you just wanna vent, do it but don't drag me into it putting words in my mouth. You love the new thrash scene, I'm happy for you, really, I am, it' always cool to see someone enthusiastic about music. It just so happens that I firmly believe that the old classics are BETTER. See? Better. I AM SORRY. And still I listen to neothrash and I have already told you bands that I think are awesome. What do you want? For me to say that the new thrash scene is filled with great music and innovation? Sorry, I really, really don't think so and I certainly don't think they are knocking it out of the park.

Can you live with this or are you gonna tell me about how I only listen to The Legacy?
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42

Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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~Guest 98976
Metal Pounder

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
Posts: 8000
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:27 pm 
 

No, I recognize what you said about new bands, too! But you mentioned that was a small percentage of the new stuff you liked. I made edits in my last post from "all new albums" to "some new albums" to reflect this. But I don't have anything to comment about that, it's your philosophy I was addressing.

And the only reason I responded again was because I said I didn't agree, but then you replied back all smarmy so I felt like I had to address what was in your post.

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Mistereyedee
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:54 am
Posts: 264
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:46 pm 
 

Forbidden Evil and most of Twisted into Form are worthwhile, but everything else by the band can go fuck off. Craig Locicero is a joke.
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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:51 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
No, I recognize what you said about new bands, too! But you mentioned that was a small percentage of the new stuff you liked. I made edits in my last post from "all new albums" to "some new albums" to reflect this. But I don't have anything to comment about that, it's your philosophy I was addressing.

And the only reason I responded again was because I said I didn't agree, but then you replied back all smarmy so I felt like I had to address what was in your post.


"All smarmy"... :roll:

I am tired of you throwing psychological evaluations about my posts (cynical, defensive, smarmy) and pretty much responding to stuff I did not say. Stick to the point, if you please.

In any case, yes, I did say it is a small percentage of what is out there that is actually GOOD, good enough to be remembered in history (by my reckoning anyway). You have not addressed my philosophy, you have set up a strawman, you describe someone (certainly not me) and proceed to explain why you think that's depressing. What I describe is waaaay more simple: the new scene isn't as good as the original artists. You can try and explain that away but it all boils down to that: the new thrash scene on the whole isn't exactly spectacular.

Quote:
Most of what I listen to, I don't like. And I'm not even that fucking picky. State Of Euphoria got way more time in my CD player than it had any right to. And that's true for pretty much ever genre of music. I think the expectation of wanting to like the majority of what you listen to is some ridiculous, utopian, idealogical pursuit that is impossible to maintain.


So, what you're saying is that basically I am right in my assessment (maybe off in my percentage) but that is the natural order of things and I shouldn't particularly diss the neo-thrash scene.

Here is a discussion from another forum that might help clarify my point. It is an important one, so it is a long one but it might help overcome this back-and-forth about our feelings. In spoiler cause it's a biggy.

Spoiler: show
Vic wrote:
ThrashMetalRiffs wrote:
Today's budding Thrash Stars have such an awesome start compared to their eighties counterparts:-
Modern production techniques and a decent production using an average home computer certainly beats an old school musician's shitty Tascam 4 track tape recorders.
The digital age and has meant anyone can record something half decent using Cubase/Pro Tools (without the need to spend a fortune).


True. This means that anyone, including lazy mediocrities can now record with absolute ease a decent enough product and thus saturate the market with shit, making it triple hard for us to fliter out the good shit.

However, most modern productions suffer from the plague of sameness and uniformity. That andy Sneap/Municipal Waste production. Clean, precise, sterile. It works but when everyone and his grandma sounds roughly the same, that's a big problem. So, I'll take less than stellar productions that have character over the n-th clean, thrash sound of 85% of the NWOTM scene. Again, point for the old school.

Quote:
t'internet has so many resources to learn riffs and songs (YouTube lessons, Guitar tabs, almost any album is downloadable)
You can even get lessons from the great Gary Holt on Youtube.
Any budding musician can now enrol in music college studying guitar/bass/drums.
You probably could back in the 80s but nowhere near as easily as nowadays.

Technical proficiency is the LEAST of the problems today. The younger generation is better than the previous technically. it's the musicality and music vision that leaves a lot to be desired.

Quote:
So why the f*ck are there so many classics from the 80s when it was really difficult to do all the above. And very rarely does anything recorded nowadays match these so called classics.

Maybe musicians back then were just more dedicated as they didn't have Xboxes or iPhones and were just hungrier and more pissed then the pampered generation of today.


Because we are almost 30 years PAST THE PRIME. It's true for all things in life. The peak of metal was in the 80s and 90s. Bands then were part of something new and exciting, with lots of different avenues to express yourself. Bands did not think much about what they were writing. They were trying to be MORE. More aggressive. More technical. Uglier. Nastier. Scarier. Most exciting. Most evil. Most beautiful. Most open-minded. Coolest. SOMETHING.

Compare this today with the chat we were having some time ago with Lich King, who said he vetoes riffs that aren't thrash. And Lich King is one of the better examples, who at least worked on their vocals and skills. But can you imagine Hetfield telling Burton "what is this mellow shit?" when he showed him the Orion bridge?

How far can you go when your music vision is to copy the past glorious bands? When your vision is to be retro and old school and wear the jeans and hi-tops and the shirt and you know, live your fantasy thrash lifestyle. It's cool, I get it, but artistically it won't take you far. I remember interviewing Nekromantheon, asking them about their vision: (I probably paraphrase, it's from memory) "We wanted to take the early dark thrash and make it CRAZY again, take it further from where it left off (before all the death/black stuff happened). You know that's immediately something that gives them an edge over the band that tries to ape a good thrash riff.


Every music scene has roughly a 10 year period that is its peak. It happened with prog rock, with punk, with glam, with new wave, with the old jazz eras, blues eras, fusion, "grunge", whatever. Metal enjoyed a much longer than usual age of prosperity so to speak. You don't expect groundbreaking punk SCENES. Or blues SCENES or jazz SCENES. You expect to see individual artists that stand out and a lot of "regulars" that are usually interesting for the fans of the genre. Same with metal (any metal, power, thrash, prog, death - each genre had its best time).

You'll get a handful of bands or albums that are truly unique and would stand out even in the old days. I consider Vektor one such band and I've shown a few times my love for Deathhammmer, Nekromantheon and Trallery as bands that released albums that I don't differentiate as "new stuff". So, they exist. I love Wolf, best heavy/power metal band of the past 15 years. How many more are there like them? 2? 3? (like Enforcer maybe, Slough Feg, Grand Magus? - only Slough Feg compares imo, and has a matching discography). It's just a fact of life.

I love metal enough to look for the 10 albums a year (out of the 1000) that will be very much worth my time but most of the time I stumble upon "good" albums that normally wouldn't see a top 50 in 1988. I am lucky to enjoy heavy music outside metal, so I did have my System of a Down to keep me happy but really, for me the superiority of old school is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS.
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42

Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1560
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:52 pm 
 

Mistereyedee wrote:
Craig Locicero is a joke.


Why? Cool dude.
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42

Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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thesilentenigma
Puddlemonkey

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:22 pm
Posts: 696
Location: In a pocket full of posies
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:19 am 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
Who's the thrash lord?


You ring?

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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1560
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:56 am 
 

Nice try Mr. Anathema Song. :P
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42

Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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thesilentenigma
Puddlemonkey

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:22 pm
Posts: 696
Location: In a pocket full of posies
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:23 pm 
 

:panda:

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 3118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:16 pm 
 

Bringing this thread back because two things came to my attention the other day:

1. Tim Calvert played in the California thrash metal band MILITIA before he joined FORBIDDEN
2. MILTIA's 1990 demo sounds the most similar to FORBIDDEN than any band I've ever heard (maybe because Tim wrote the music and vocal melodies before he left?) So if you are looking for a new FORBIDDEN fix since the band is inactive (again) then be sure and check this out.

Apparently MILITIA are active again with a new song called "Seeing Red" but to me it doesn't sound all that impressive.

I'm always looking to expand my list of "releases similar to FORBIDDEN" so please let me know if you guys find anything that fits the bill.
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~Guest 74046
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:42 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:16 pm 
 

Acid Storm - Biotronic Genesis sounds quite like Forbidden, especially with their choppy, technical rhythm section. My guess is that you're probably familiar with them however.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:22 pm 
 

Rippingheadache wrote:
Acid Storm - Biotronic Genesis sounds quite like Forbidden, especially with their choppy, technical rhythm section. My guess is that you're probably familiar with them however.


Yeah, that's a good release. I'll go back and listen to it looking for Forbidden similarities in mind this time.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:44 am 
 

I actually vaguely remember that Militia band from way back in the day. I checked em out when they played a show with Forbidden once, I remember them being a bit like Overkill, particularly the vocals- definitely not bad.

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brain hammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:55 pm
Posts: 174
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:13 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I'm always looking to expand my list of "releases similar to FORBIDDEN" so please let me know if you guys find anything that fits the bill.


Narcotic Greed "Fatal" is the closest match I can think of. Reminded me a lot of Forbidden Evil.

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StainedClass95
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:14 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:40 pm 
 

Interesting thread, not sure how I missed this back in 2016. To the question of better album, I usually prefer the debut, much more immediate album with noticeably more intensity. As far as the vocalist goes, I'm a bit surprised to read that he was that highly thought of. I'm giving them another listen now, and I don't feel like I'm listening to an exceptional vocalist. He's better than Killian, but I wouldn't think of him immediately as a top-notch thrash (or metal in general) vocalist. Most of the enjoyment I derive from Forbidden comes from the guitarwork. As for where they slot in as a thrash band, they had two solid but not truly exceptional albums. They had some strong stuff on those first two albums, but there are plenty of less impressive tracks, and it's really only the riffs and occasionally solos that stand out to me. Off the top of my head, I believe I would have them behind Testament, Heathen, Paradox, and Sadus but ahead of Laaz Rockit as far as late-80's/early 90's bands that have been thrown out. They were fine, but I don't know that I view them as particularly underrated or underappreciated within metal circles.

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 2182
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:40 am 
 

The Outer Limits sound very much like Forbidden.

https://stormspell.bandcamp.com/album/apocalypto

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 3118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I actually vaguely remember that Militia band from way back in the day. I checked em out when they played a show with Forbidden once, I remember them being a bit like Overkill, particularly the vocals- definitely not bad.


That's awesome that you've seen them live. I bet you've seen a ton of good shows being a native of Cali back in the day when thrash was going strong.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:40 am 
 

brain hammer wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
I'm always looking to expand my list of "releases similar to FORBIDDEN" so please let me know if you guys find anything that fits the bill.


Narcotic Greed "Fatal" is the closest match I can think of. Reminded me a lot of Forbidden Evil.


Yeah, it's on my list. I was listening to it this weekend. Interesting stuff.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:42 am 
 

Dembo wrote:


Yeah, that one is also on my list.

Here is my current list:

Releases that sound like Forbidden (sorted in order of Forbiddenosity):
Militia – 1990 demo
The Outer Limits - Apocalypto
Vulture – Easier to Lie
Azotic Reign – Abstract Maledictions
The Outer Limits - World metal Domination
Mosh-pit Justice - Stop Believing Lies
Narcotic Greed – Fatal
Mosh-pit Justice - Justice is Served
Mosh-pit Justice - Mosh-pit Justice
Azotic Reign - Beyond the Blood EP?
Azotic Reign - Demo 2002?
Black Crusader – Born Evil 1990 demo?
Vulture - Fatal Games?


I still need to check out any that have question marks by them.

http://www.thethrashmetalguide.com has some other good recommendations that I need to hear as well.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:07 pm 
 

Did Tim Calvert actually play in Militia? If so, then their band page on the site needs to be updated with that info. I was not aware of that, if it is true.

Yeah, I remember quite a few good shows from the Omni (Oakland) and the Stone (in SF) during the late 80s/early 90's but even then there were a couple bands that flew "below my radar" so to speak, and I didn't start really going to the small "Club" shows until around late '87 or so.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:23 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
Did Tim Calvert actually play in Militia? If so, then their band page on the site needs to be updated with that info. I was not aware of that, if it is true.


I had only heard this recently, but I saw it on a few pages on The Interwebs. It makes sense to me, but I can't verify it.

Quote:
Yeah, I remember quite a few good shows from the Omni (Oakland) and the Stone (in SF) during the late 80s/early 90's but even then there were a couple bands that flew "below my radar" so to speak, and I didn't start really going to the small "Club" shows until around late '87 or so.


Did you see Legacy and Forbidden Evil live back then?

What about Blind Illusion?

*jealous*
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:02 pm 
 

Forbidden Evil, yes; a couple times in the fall of 1987, about eight months or so before they renamed themselves simply "Forbidden."
I don't recall ever seeing Blind Illusion, as I was never really that into them. Legacy- I just missed out on seeing them; by the time I was old enough to go into the city to see shows, they had just re-formed as Testament and had just released their debut album. By that time, Possessed was finished, Insanity was no longer playing shows, Metal Church and Death had already relocated, and Exodus and Metallica were too big to play small clubs anymore.

For whatever reason Testament never sounded very good live back then. Part of the fault might have been with their sound engineer, but they had a tendency to just turn everything up to full volume until all the instruments just drowned each other out, and you just had a wall of sloppy sounding noise. Sloppy because, well, what you could hear often was sloppily played (too much cheap beer before going onstage maybe). Kind of unfortunate. And oddly, Forbidden, Death Angel, Vio-Lence, and most of the other bands that played back then didn't suffer from that issue as much as Testament did. In fact, when I saw Forbidden (Evil) open for Testament in '87, Forbidden Evil was actually the better of the two bands.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:33 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
For whatever reason Testament never sounded very good live back then. Part of the fault might have been with their sound engineer, but they had a tendency to just turn everything up to full volume until all the instruments just drowned each other out, and you just had a wall of sloppy sounding noise. Sloppy because, well, what you could hear often was sloppily played (too much cheap beer before going onstage maybe). Kind of unfortunate.

Looks like some things never change. Testament is by far one of the worst live bands simply because they sound so terrible.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:22 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
Forbidden Evil, yes; a couple times in the fall of 1987, about eight months or so before they renamed themselves simply "Forbidden."
I don't recall ever seeing Blind Illusion, as I was never really that into them. Legacy- I just missed out on seeing them; by the time I was old enough to go into the city to see shows, they had just re-formed as Testament and had just released their debut album. By that time, Possessed was finished, Insanity was no longer playing shows, Metal Church and Death had already relocated, and Exodus and Metallica were too big to play small clubs anymore.

For whatever reason Testament never sounded very good live back then. Part of the fault might have been with their sound engineer, but they had a tendency to just turn everything up to full volume until all the instruments just drowned each other out, and you just had a wall of sloppy sounding noise. Sloppy because, well, what you could hear often was sloppily played (too much cheap beer before going onstage maybe). Kind of unfortunate. And oddly, Forbidden, Death Angel, Vio-Lence, and most of the other bands that played back then didn't suffer from that issue as much as Testament did. In fact, when I saw Forbidden (Evil) open for Testament in '87, Forbidden Evil was actually the better of the two bands.


Thanks for the info.

That's funny, the early bootlegs I've heard from Legacy/Testament sounded really good: one from 85/86 or so with Souza on vox and also Live at Eindhoven which sounds AMAZING IMHO.

I'll definitely take your word for it though. Skolnick in his book complained about their live sound as well.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm 
 

OK, Top 11 favorite Forbidden songs or dream set list????

I saw them live on the Omega Wave tour and was disappointed that their setlist wasn't more like this:

Parting of the Ways / Inifinite
Adapt or Die
March into Fire
Hypnotized by the Rhythm
Out of Body (Out of Mind)
Forsaken at the Gates
One Foot in Hell
No Reason
Step by Step
Through Eyes of Glass
Chalice of Blood

(those Distortion songs I listed above are amazing and don't deserve to be ignored just because that album is pretty boring over all).
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:29 pm 
 

After the critical and financial disappointment that was "Green", Loccicero dismissed all the other members claiming they were "superfluous" and released this controversial album under the Forbidden name:

Image
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Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:24 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
Oxenkiller wrote:
For whatever reason Testament never sounded very good live back then. Part of the fault might have been with their sound engineer, but they had a tendency to just turn everything up to full volume until all the instruments just drowned each other out, and you just had a wall of sloppy sounding noise. Sloppy because, well, what you could hear often was sloppily played (too much cheap beer before going onstage maybe). Kind of unfortunate.

Looks like some things never change. Testament is by far one of the worst live bands simply because they sound so terrible.


I saw them live once (playing with Exodus and Megadeth) and I couldn't even make out the riffs of songs I hadn't heard before. I just sat at the edge of the room (it was just a concrete room with a bunch of folding chairs in it, with the acoustics to match) ignoring them until they left the stage and Megadeth came on. Exodus were in full Rob Dukes douche-groove mode at the time, but at least you could make sense of their music. Testament were just a disgrace.
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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:39 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
After the critical and financial disappointment that was "Green", Loccicero dismissed all the other members claiming they were "superfluous" and released this controversial album under the Forbidden name:

Image


ha ha, you actually had me going there with that one! I've never heard of the rapper Forbidden (but then again I don't follow rap that closely, so...)

I would have added "Follow Me" from the first album, to your dream set list above.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:00 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Spiner202 wrote:
Looks like some things never change. Testament is by far one of the worst live bands simply because they sound so terrible.


I saw them live once (playing with Exodus and Megadeth) and I couldn't even make out the riffs of songs I hadn't heard before. I just sat at the edge of the room (it was just a concrete room with a bunch of folding chairs in it, with the acoustics to match) ignoring them until they left the stage and Megadeth came on. Exodus were in full Rob Dukes douche-groove mode at the time, but at least you could make sense of their music. Testament were just a disgrace.

That is an amazing description because my experience was exactly the same the first time I saw them. The only song I recognized was Over The Wall because I knew how to play it on guitar and recognized how Eric/Alex were moving their hands.

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