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TimeDoesNotHeal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:08 pm 
 

My thoughts on the matter are that Twisted into Form had better songs and performances (specifically on the part of Calvert and Bostaph), but I will say that the rhythm guitar crunch on Forbidden Evil is heavy as hell, and certain songs (Chalice of Blood, Through Eyes of Glass) are definitely top 5 in their discography.

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SkullFracturingNightmare
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:05 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
SkullFracturingNightmare wrote:
You wanna talk about slightly goofy choruses and not bring up One Foot in Hell? Infinite and Step by Step are normal as shit compared to that.


Hmm, to me that one is not bad at all. Do you have a problem with the lyrics in the chorus or the way it is sung?

And Step by Step is not too bad. I think Infinite is the worst of the three.

The way its sung, pretty much.
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Master_Of_Thrash
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:02 am 
 

I was listening to Liquid Metal today morning, and Robb Flynn was hosting a little segment. He was talking about how he wrote 4 songs on Forbidden Evil, "Chalice Of Blood" being one of them. He mentioned that he wanted the song to have "an Exodus vibe with an Egyptian melody", and I can totally hear that now. I always thought that riff was really unique, but I couldn't quite make the connection. Thankfully, Robb clarified it.

What I thought was even more interesting was the fact that Mr. Flynn actually wrote some songs on Forbidden's debut album. He knew how to thrash back then, eh?
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~Guest 282118
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:53 am 
 

You're talking about one of the main guys behind Eternal Nightmare. Kind of a given, at least at that point in time.

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:50 am 
 

Who's the thrash lord?
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
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Master_Of_Thrash
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:59 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
You're talking about one of the main guys behind Eternal Nightmare. Kind of a given, at least at that point in time.

Yeah, kind of shocking how he would go on to form one of the most ordinary metal bands in the world.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:08 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Quote:
Overall I prefer Toxik though, both albums. But Toxik is REALLY special in my book. I am a huge Josh Christian fanboy, one of my favorite people to air guitar too! :P


Absolutely! When I first heard that solo on "World Circus" I was hooked on this band. That's still one of my favorite all-time solos.

Vic, since you love TOXIK you really need to check out this band AZRAEL. Bobby Koelble from DEATH was on leads and he is easily one of the most amazing thrash/death metal guitarists ever. The vocalist is a really amazing melodic singer too, although not high-pitched like TOXIK and REALM.

Their demos just got remastered and rereleased on CD from Divebomb Records so you have no excuse not to pick it up!

http://tribunalrecords.bigcartel.com/pr ... -series-16


Will look into them. I knew the name from the Bobby connection but never really bothered. I like Bobby's work but I'm not sure I share that much enthusiam. I'd like to be proven wrong though. I will hopefully seeing him live in the DTA tour in April, if I can make it.
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:43 pm 
 

TimeDoesNotHeal wrote:
My thoughts on the matter are that Twisted into Form had better songs and performances (specifically on the part of Calvert and Bostaph)


I can definitely see how someone say Bostaph sounds much better on "Twisted" than on the debut. Some of the beats to me sound like Sean Reinert from CYNIC!

Calvert and Alvelais are pretty much equally awesome I think, in different styles. I guess I prefer Alvelais because he sounds a bit more like Skolnick who was probably my earliest guitar hero.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:45 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
Twisted into Form > Forbidden Evil


A million-word rebuttal cannot and will not matter. A thrash lord has spoken.


It's not a "rebuttal", it's a "discussion".

As in the phrases:
"Forum Index » Music Talk » Metal Discussion"
"FORBIDDEN (the thrash band) discussion / questions"
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:47 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
Who's the thrash lord?


Yeah, no kidding.

Haven't we all been listening to this style for 30 years or so? Oxenkiller even said he has been following the band since their demo days. I nominate him for thrash lord.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:22 pm 
 

Master_Of_Thrash wrote:
I was listening to Liquid Metal today morning, and Robb Flynn was hosting a little segment. He was talking about how he wrote 4 songs on Forbidden Evil, "Chalice Of Blood" being one of them. He mentioned that he wanted the song to have "an Exodus vibe with an Egyptian melody", and I can totally hear that now. I always thought that riff was really unique, but I couldn't quite make the connection. Thankfully, Robb clarified it.


That's interesting. He also wrote a song that was never recorded called "Egypt has Fallen" that apparently he referred to as a "Mercyful Fate" rip off. Another example of his love of Egyptian-sounding melodies?

To me, you could see how this sound was becoming more prominent in thrash as the 80s went on: ex: the main riff in EXODUS "Pleasures of the Flesh", LEGACY/TESTAMENT "Burnt Offerings" main riff, Megadeth's twisted riffing, etc.

This twisted/diminished/Egyptian melodic quality is what IMHO differentiates THRASH from SPEED metal. Not tempo or vocal style as most claim.

The main sources I have found for early FORBIDDEN info were the Snakepit interview with Craig Loccicero from years back, and Joel McIver's book about Machine Head:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/178038 ... oks&sr=1-1

An earlier chapter talks about his tenure and contributions to FORBIDDEN. Apparently he lost interest in the band after hanging out with the guys in VIO-LENCE and quit while telling them Russ was a crappy singer. My guess is that Robb and the guys in VIO-LENCE bonded over enjoying the same drugs at the time. FORBIDDEN wrote anti-drug songs (like "Off the Edge", ha!) and VIO-LENCE were admittedly hopped up on speed and other things in those days. A lot of interesting tidbits in here if you click the "look inside" option and read the first chapter.

BTW, Robb also did some vocals for FORBIDDEN in the early days, I think on tunes like "March into Fire" and the live cover of EXODUS's "A Lesson in Violence". Flynn said years ago that EXODUS was his favorite band of all-time.

IIRC Robb is doing vocals for FORBIDDEN EVIL on their contribution to this compilation here:

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album ... thies_inn/
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:51 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
You're talking about one of the main guys behind Eternal Nightmare. Kind of a given, at least at that point in time.


I thought Flynn wrote very little on that album because he joined right before the recording, and only started really contributing on "Oppressing". Or am I mistaken?
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Master_Of_Thrash
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:48 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
That's interesting. He also wrote a song that was never recorded called "Egypt has Fallen" that apparently he referred to as a "Mercyful Fate" rip off. Another example of his love of Egyptian-sounding melodies?

To me, you could see how this sound was becoming more prominent in thrash as the 80s went on: ex: the main riff in EXODUS "Pleasures of the Flesh", LEGACY/TESTAMENT "Burnt Offerings" main riff, Megadeth's twisted riffing, etc.

This twisted/diminished/Egyptian melodic quality is what IMHO differentiates THRASH from SPEED metal. Not tempo or vocal style as most claim.

He did mention Mercyful Fate along with Exodus and the Egyptian stuff. I agree with Testament using Egyptian-sounding melodies on The Legacy, especially the chorus of "Alone In The Dark" and most of Artillery's By Inheritance sounds like it was influenced by Middle Eastern melodies.

I wouldn't necessarily say that thrash and speed are very different from one another, but there are clear differences that give it away. To me, speed metal is just heavy metal played faster (for example, "Aces High", "Fast As A Shark", etc). Thrash is clearly a heavier, more punky take on heavy metal. Also, the melodic factor isn't really what differentiates thrash from speed, as they can both be equally aggressive and melodic.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:56 pm 
 

TheExodusAttack wrote:
At the end of the day, Laaz Rockit and Vio-lence are my go to late 80s bay area thrash fix... Sadus, even Testament got more plays from me.


For me, it's TESTAMENT > FORBIDDEN > VIO-LENCE > SADUS > LAAZ ROCKIT.

I enjoy all of them to a degree, but for me the main thing is the quality of the songwriting.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:00 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
I don't remember "Off The Edge" being any worse than any number of Anthrax songs post-Fistful Of Metal, or worse than OverKill's "Fatal If Swallowed" or "PowerSurge".


I think the music to all three of those songs is excellent. Yeah, the lyrics to "Fatal if Swallowed" are too cheesy and the innuendo isn't that clever or charming.

I'm not sure thrash humor aged well at all. In fact, I'd say it nearly all completely sucks.

My band used to cover "PowerSurge" at our first shows and it always went over well. I like the main riff and the prominent bass. To me, that album reminds me musically (not lyrically) of "Show No Mercy". They are in the same ballpark IMHO.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:23 pm 
 

SkullFracturingNightmare wrote:
As for Anthrax, I'd take all of Among the Living over Off the Edge.


I loved that album back in the day, but I'm of the opinion that it is the single most overrated thrash release. It didn't age well at all for me.

I don't think the riffing on that album was that amazing either. B- at best. I think the riffing on "Off the Edge" is a lot more twisted and intense, which is what I really enjoy.

Their "socially aware" lyrics to me are no less corny than the ones about "Little Johnny" from "Off the Edge".
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:25 pm 
 

IntenseHatred wrote:
Although I am a huge fan of Dave's playing with Slayer, when I heard Paul was going to Slayer I was completely blown away. He is an amazing drummer. I love that "attack" style of drums.


He obviously practiced his butt off to get the gig, and while he was in SLAYER. His drumming got MUCH better, although he was great before. Frankly, he is the best thing about a lot of the SLAYER songs he has played on ... especially "Repentless". That's easily some of the best thrash drumming I have ever heard.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:35 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
My reissue of Suiciety has liner notes where they basically admit that the songs on that album are far beyond their abilities as musicians today. They probably tried already, but their legacy was built on a ludicrously difficult album to play and they can't get to that level anymore. Some of the shit they pull off on that album is just astonishing.


I can kind of understand that but that sounds like a bit of a cop out. I mean, TOXIK reunited and can play their material. John Arch came out of retirement after decades of inactivity. WATCHTOWER have recorded new songs. Is REALM's music really THAT hard? I thought their main guitarist had stayed active musically all these years.

Quote:
That is the worst rock cover I've ever heard in heavy metal (second worst being Flotsam and Jetsam butchering "Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting"). What the fuck were they thinking? Why would you cover that song at all?


I think it's a great cover, and I liked the way they changed it into a power metal song. It's easily one of the catchiest songs on the album.

Why cover it? So you can change it in a creative way and because even though you like metal, you may like other non-metal bands too ... like the Beatles. Not to mention that back in those days it seemed like EVERY thrash bands was forced to record a cover song for a stab at radio/MTV play.

I think the worst cover is DARK ANGEL's "Creeping Death" ... even worse than their butchering of "Immigrant Song"!

Quote:
Their new demo is a bomb though. Crushingly disappointing.


I thought it was OK. It didn't blow me away or stick with me much but I will definitely pick up "In Humanity" when (if?) it ever comes out.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:43 pm 
 

Master_Of_Thrash wrote:
He did mention Mercyful Fate along with Exodus and the Egyptian stuff. I agree with Testament using Egyptian-sounding melodies on The Legacy, especially the chorus of "Alone In The Dark" and most of Artillery's By Inheritance sounds like it was influenced by Middle Eastern melodies.


Gene Hoglan said this is why he started playing guitar in the first place. He would play with guitar players who he wanted to play "Egyptian-sounding" riffs and they either didn't know how to or wouldn't so he just took it upon himself to do it.

Quote:
To me, speed metal is just heavy metal played faster (for example, "Aces High", "Fast As A Shark", etc).


Yeah, exactly.

Quote:
Thrash is clearly a heavier, more punky take on heavy metal. Also, the melodic factor isn't really what differentiates thrash from speed, as they can both be equally aggressive and melodic.


I do think there is a dissonance/chromatic quality to thrash that isn't in speed metal.
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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:14 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
TheExodusAttack wrote:
At the end of the day, Laaz Rockit and Vio-lence are my go to late 80s bay area thrash fix... Sadus, even Testament got more plays from me.


For me, it's TESTAMENT > FORBIDDEN > VIO-LENCE > SADUS > LAAZ ROCKIT.

I enjoy all of them to a degree, but for me the main thing is the quality of the songwriting.

If this is the game we're playing, I'd re-arrange it to:

Vio-lence > Testament > Forbidden > Sadus > Laaz Rockit.

Vio-lence is one of the greatest bands ever, and Eternal Nightmare can't be topped. Oppressing the Masses is a great follow-up too. Testament, while being overrated by the mainstream at large, still had a number of killer records, and their new stuff rules too. Forbidden and Sadus each have some good material: a strong debut with a weaker follow-up. I have 3 Laaz Rockit albums, and while I enjoy them all to some extent, I don't find anything special about the band.

Temple Of Blood wrote:
FasterDisaster wrote:
I don't remember "Off The Edge" being any worse than any number of Anthrax songs post-Fistful Of Metal, or worse than OverKill's "Fatal If Swallowed" or "PowerSurge".


I think the music to all three of those songs is excellent. Yeah, the lyrics to "Fatal if Swallowed" are too cheesy and the innuendo isn't that clever or charming.

I'm not sure thrash humor aged well at all. In fact, I'd say it nearly all completely sucks.

My band used to cover "PowerSurge" at our first shows and it always went over well. I like the main riff and the prominent bass. To me, that album reminds me musically (not lyrically) of "Show No Mercy". They are in the same ballpark IMHO.


Maybe I'm just not as old as you guys, but I still love thrash humour. I know people hate it when someone calls music fun, but that's what thrash is to me. It's just a bunch of kids playing loud, fast, and (occasionally) hilarious music. I find the bands that sometimes go too far with the humour things are the ones that end up having bad music anyways.

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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:51 pm 
 

So really "Suiciety" is "Beyond their abilities as musicians today?"

That does not make sense. How does one lose their ability to play music as they age? Musicianship is a mental ability, not physical, Its not like playing sports; where your body breaks down and you get slower, less strong or resilient as you age. If they could play the songs back then, they should have the ability today, unless something else (drugs, booze for example) has taken its toll. I can see that being true of vocals, or maybe even the drumming, but not string instruments?

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~Guest 98976
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:50 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
TheExodusAttack wrote:
At the end of the day, Laaz Rockit and Vio-lence are my go to late 80s bay area thrash fix... Sadus, even Testament got more plays from me.


For me, it's TESTAMENT > FORBIDDEN > VIO-LENCE > SADUS > LAAZ ROCKIT.

I enjoy all of them to a degree, but for me the main thing is the quality of the songwriting.

I don't think I've ever seen a more worthless ">" list than yours. Testament isn't even that good when it comes to the pantheon of great thrash. I like Forbidden, but Vio-Lence is crushingly awesome, Sadus is fucking ridiculous and Laaz Rockit is just awesome.

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:15 am 
 

Yeah, because your comment of "Sadus is fucking ridiculous" is such a treasure of wisdom!

Here, GOD'S GIFT TO THE METAL CROWD, Bay area, post-86:
Forbidden Evil > The Legacy > Nothing$ $acred / Chemical Exposure > Victims of Deception > Eternal Nightmare (don't love the vocals, don't hate them either) > The Ultra-Violence (half of it is great, half forgettable)

All good. Somewhere between Laaz Rockit/Sadus and Heathen I would put Possessed's Eyes of Horror EP.
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:24 am 
 

I'm sorry. I just really cannot take anybody who seriously puts Testament above Sadus. Sadus was one of the first uber-brutal technical thrash bands with a death metal tinge, and their first couple demos, EPs and albums are insanely good. Testament is the most middle-of-the-road generic kinda-catchy, maybe kinda-technical thrash metal. If you could make Master Of Puppets or The Black Album any less interesting, listen to any Testament album, (minus when they get to the Demonic phase). I never want to listen to The New Order again. Souls Of Black suuucks. The Legacy isn't terrible, but eh.

Also, Eternal Nightmare is one of the best Bay Area thrash albums ever. The same with The Ultra-Violence. What the hell is wrong with all of you?

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:38 am 
 

I was quite clear what my problem with those two albums. I know others worship Vio-Lence, I like 'em well enough and the music is awesome but the vocals never sat well with me. Thankfully, not to the point of ruining the album as is often the case. The Ultra-Violence to me for the past several years has been Thrashers, s/t, Voracious Souls and Mistress of Pain. Lovely album but I haven't played it in its entirety for many years. Still think it's their best.

I have listened to Testament countless times and I find them great and I'm sure you're aware this is not a minority opinion. Not a huge fan of Souls of Black or The Ritual myself but even those are decent enough and with some of the finest soloing in the genre too to make the listens worthwhile. I LOVE Low and The Gathering and I find their last two more than decent with some excellent songs. The Legacy is nothing short of a masterpiece. Demonic is one of their worst and most one-dimensional albums in their career.

As for what the hell is wrong with us... that's rich, coming from a guy who wrote "If you could make Master of Puppets any less interesting"! :P I also think Sadus is "insanely good" as you put it but I can stomach if someone else prefers another band!
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:52 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
Eternal Nightmare can't be topped. Oppressing the Masses is a great follow-up too.


I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer "Oppressing" by a large margin. I admit that it had to grow on me though. "Eternal Nightmare" has 3-4 songs that I really like and a bunch of others that I think are pretty good. I think Robb Flynn's influence helped a lot on the second album, and I think the drumming was better.

Quote:
Maybe I'm just not as old as you guys, but I still love thrash humour. I know people hate it when someone calls music fun, but that's what thrash is to me. It's just a bunch of kids playing loud, fast, and (occasionally) hilarious music. I find the bands that sometimes go too far with the humour things are the ones that end up having bad music anyways.


LICH KING are the funniest to me. But the 80s thrash humor like "I'm the Man" or anything like that? Absolute crap IMHO. It probably has a lot to do with the age they were when they made that music and the age that I am now. I just don't think it's clever any more.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:00 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I can see that being true of vocals, or maybe even the drumming, but not string instruments?


Yeah, there is DEFINITELY a physical component to it, especially with singers and drummers. That's one reason so many of these bands get younger replacements in these areas.

I can see how they could be very rusty and need months to get up to the level they were before, but just to say it's impossible ... that sounds lazy or that there is just too much of a logistical problem. No one expects the singer to hit every single note he hit in the 80s but frankly he doesn't need to.

Pretty much every other technical band has reformed and found replacement musicians if they need to ... I don't see why REALM is such an exception.

And let's face it, more metal musicians have technical chops these days than the 80s/90s. Not songwriting chops mind you, but playing chops. There is just too many good instructional videos and great material on the internet available to help musicians advance.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:34 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen a more worthless ">" list than yours.


OH NOES. Is this the part where I am supposed to feel inferior to you?

Are you a "thrash lord" too?

Aren't you the one who was telling me that Annihilator's first two albums were garbage, and that recent Overkill is great? You come across like a noob internet warrior. If you think Dave Linsk is such a great songwriter then more power to you. It's no surprise to me that they can crank out material of that caliber so quickly these days. Linsk sucks and needs to listen to a lot more Mercyful Fate and a lot less Black Label Society IMHO.

I have no idea why you chose to discuss the music that we love in such an insulting way here. I am not interested in your nonsense. Why don't you ask me about why I ranked them the way I have so you might learn what informed my decision? Could it be that we prioritize different aspects of music differently? Is that acceptable?

Have you been listening to thrash longer than I have? Do you have a larger vinyl/CD/cassette collection than me? Have you been playing thrash metal longer than I have? Have you heard more thrash releases/demos than I have?

Quote:
Testament isn't even that good when it comes to the pantheon of great thrash.


If you say so. If you prefer thrash with melody and great solos there aren't many (any?) better over all.

I'd take Dark Angel and Artillery over Testament any day of the week, but they certainly have their share of great stuff. Also a ton of mediocre stuff in their discography and I didn't enjoy their latest album at all.

Quote:
Vio-Lence is crushingly awesome


I like them a lot. I don't care about their vocals, one way or another. I can hear that they are not of the same caliber as Araya or Billy but all I really care about is the riff/drum interplay. I never thought "Eternal Nightmare" was as good as some say it was.

Quote:
Sadus is fucking ridiculous


I have all their albums and enjoy them all, even "Out of Blood" which most thrash diehards panned.

Their songwriting needs work though. It doesn't rise to KREATOR, SLAYER, DARK ANGEL standards. For that reason, it doesn't surprise me that they didn't make it further than they did. Getting through one of their albums all the way is more of a slog than a lot of their extreme thrash contemporaries.

Great musicianship all around, except for solos really which are generic. Love those vocals.

Seems like you think they are so amazing because they are:
ULTRA TECHNICAL
and
BRUTAL

Yeah, they are ... so? How well do they do that style? I think DARK ANGEL blow them out of the water in that regard. I even like HYNPOSIA better, a latter-day band that was probably influenced by them.

Why not just listen to bands like SPAWN OF POSSESSION if those are the main qualities that you think are so amazing?

Quote:
Laaz Rockit is just awesome.


I only have "Nothing Sacred" but I like it. I don't have their early stuff but have heard bits and pieces. I just don't think their songwriting sticks very well. Good musicians though. To me, they are about the same level as DEFIANCE or something like that. Their one dimensional vocalist held them back too.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:52 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
Forbidden Evil > > Nothing$ $acred / Chemical Exposure > Victims of Deception > Eternal Nightmare > The Ultra-Violence (half of it is great, half forgettable)



Mine (a bit different than those rankings before, because these are specific releases) would be:

The Legacy > Forbidden Evil > Eyes of Horror > Chemical Exposure > Eternal Nightmare > The Ultra-Violence > Nothing $sacred > Victims of Deception

The only HEATHEN song I like is the demo version of "Dying Season". They check off all the boxes of stuff I normally like but their riffs and songs don't grab me. I keep trying them out and they keep putting me to sleep.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:23 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
The Ultra-Violence to me for the past several years has been Thrashers, s/t, Voracious Souls and Mistress of Pain. Lovely album but I haven't played it in its entirety for many years. Still think it's their best.


Personally I think Act III is the highest quality release they did although it is in that "thrash band trying to go mainstream" style that I don't often listen to. I do enjoy tracks like "Mistress of Pain" and "Road Mutants" though but not many. I thought their old drummer and guitarist were very good and haven't been as impressed with their replacements since the reunion.

I also don't think Osgeuda's voice has held up that well. I used to think he would be the perfect replacement for Belladonna in Anthrax but hearing him these days, he just can't sing at the same level as Bush, Nelson, or Belladonna. He's more of a yeller.

I don't like "I'm Bored" at all and as far as "Angel" bands go I think DARK ANGEL are far superior to this band, in every way.

Quote:
I have listened to Testament countless times and I find them great and I'm sure you're aware this is not a minority opinion. Not a huge fan of Souls of Black or The Ritual myself but even those are decent enough and with some of the finest soloing in the genre too to make the listens worthwhile. I LOVE Low and The Gathering and I find their last two more than decent with some excellent songs. The Legacy is nothing short of a masterpiece. Demonic is one of their worst and most one-dimensional albums in their career.


"The Legacy" - masterpiece and my pick for best thrash debut album of all-time. Love the songs, almost all the riffs, and all the solos. I wouldn't even change Clemente's drumming a bit on this one. I think part of the reason for the quality for this album is that these songs were formed over a period of years and not just in a few months to try to jump on a tour. Also, I prefer Souza's lyrical/melodic approach and his influence is strongly felt on this album.

Quote:
"If you could make Master of Puppets any less interesting"!


Yeah, talk about a metal album that made no impact at all on anyone at the time of release. Move along, nothing interesting to see here.

Quote:
I also think Sadus is "insanely good" as you put it but I can stomach if someone else prefers another band!


How do you ever hope to make it as a thrash lord (tm) with that kind of attitude?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:08 am 
 

Alright, so far there's too much bullshit to tackle head-on right now, so I just wanted to cover a couple of key points:

First off, I'm not the only person who thinks Master Of Puppets isn't a very good album in retrospect. There's a ton of influential and great stuff on that album, but half of it is bloated thrash / heavy metal containing not very interesting riffs ("Master Of Puppets", the song, contains probably the most annoying main thrash riff and most unnecessarily long song in all of history). There's more to thrash than the big four and if you only stopped there, then we don't really have much in common.

In terms of stuff being BRUTAL AND TECHNICAL AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU PUT YOU CAPS TO DISTILL MY POINT OF VIEW TO, I honestly don't even listen to that much old thrash anymore. Eighties and nineties thrash and deathrash ate up the first decade of my discovery into metal, and honestly once I started hitting C-levels of thrash like Xentrix and Risk, I moved onto other genres since I know there's still so much to discover.

I've since shifted to contemporary thrash ever since three or four years ago, and there's so much really awesome shit coming out that it's reinvigorated my favorite subgenre of music. We're basically in a thrash renaissance, and it's great.

Testament still sucks though. I will fucking go to the mat on that one.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:23 am 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
I'm sorry. I just really cannot take anybody who seriously puts Testament above Sadus. Sadus was one of the first uber-brutal technical thrash bands with a death metal tinge, and their first couple demos, EPs and albums are insanely good. Testament is the most middle-of-the-road generic kinda-catchy, maybe kinda-technical thrash metal.

The problem with this statement is that it implies that death metal is superior to thrash. Regardless of our individual rankings of bands/albums, I can assure you that myself/Temple of Blood/Vic don't agree (been arguing with these guys on thrash forums for a long time :P)

Now if you want to discuss individual song quality, that's fine, but being closer to death metal than standard thrash isn't inherently problematic.

The reason why Sadus is worse than Testament is because Sadus only had one good album, and the only real appeal of that album is the sheer absurdity/brutality of it. On the other hand, Testament has had numerous good albums, and even some decent songs on the albums that could be considered mediocre as a whole. Yeah, it might be "generic thrash", but if the riffs are good and the songs are memorable, that doesn't matter to me.

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Quote:
Laaz Rockit is just awesome.


I only have "Nothing Sacred" but I like it. I don't have their early stuff but have heard bits and pieces. I just don't think their songwriting sticks very well. Good musicians though. To me, they are about the same level as DEFIANCE or something like that. Their one dimensional vocalist held them back too.


I'm gonna have to chime in and say Defiance is much better than Laaz Rockit. The first Defiance album is really great. The riffs are insanely tight (and surprisingly technical). I like the second one a lot too (though it isn't as memorable as the debut). It's been a while since I've heard the third album, but I tend to revisit Defiance as a whole way more than Laaz Rockit. Defiance doesn't have a particularly unique sound, but it's fantastic.

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:40 am 
 

Hey man, Sadus most definitely have more than one good album (I guess you mean the debut). The following two for starters, which I consider exceedingly awesome. And i like Elements of Anger as well. The last one hasn't done anything for me yet.

And I prefer Laaz Rockit to Defiance too :P

Risk is not C-level thrash. It's a fine specimen of german speed/powerthrash, the debut particularly and the EP. Not the greatest band but much better than their reputation. And Ratman still is one of my holy grails in shirt collecting, been wanting that since I was 12!
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:29 am 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
Now if you want to discuss individual song quality, that's fine, but being closer to death metal than standard thrash isn't inherently problematic.

I never stated I believed such a thing.

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
Risk is not C-level thrash. It's a fine specimen of german speed/powerthrash, the debut particularly and the EP. Not the greatest band but much better than their reputation. And Ratman still is one of my holy grails in shirt collecting, been wanting that since I was 12!

My intention with that comment is you hit the level where the bands don't sound as interesting, refreshing, or they ape whole-cloth from better bands. There's a lot of redundancy when you get to the obscure sectors of thrash with bands like Xentrix and Slammer.

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:01 am 
 

Yeah, I got what you were saying. There was a ton of boring thrash released after 88, bands I don't even remeber now. Xentrix I also think weren't that great but they certainly weren't obscure and they are enjoyable.

Thing is, I don't understand this "moving on to other genres" you describe. I mean thrash has been my favorite since forever but that doesn't mean I will only concern myself with thrash. If you can't find any more thrash that you like from the 80s does that mean that you will stop listening to the good albums? (I will set aside the MoP argument, it's tiresome and it's bordering on the retarded - and no, nobody on this thread is stuck with the big 4, far from it).

In any case, I guess my biggest surprise is that you speak so highly of the new thrash scene, which is ten times more filled with boring mediocrities apeing the classics. There are some good stuff but I'd say a good 70% of it is samey, redundant and mediocre. I mean you will find plenty of 6-7 albums but rarely an 8 or a 9 (Vektor's the only 10 I know of). And they all suffer from the same problems too: same production (Municipal Waste / Andy Sneap-ish kind), same damn vocals by almost everyone and an almost obsession not to tread on different paths than those trodden (already and more competently) by the greats of the 80s. It's like music masturbation, not really going anywhere, which is why in the end only about ten bands will be really remembered from the hundreds and hundreds out there. I don't see the renaissance you speak of, is what I mean.
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
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Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:16 am 
 

Most of the bad thrash fizzled out by 2008 / 2009. There is certainly (and will always be) bad thrash, but their numbers are nowhere what they were back around 2006 / 2007. In the last several years, most of what you're getting are bands who are starting up in the ashes of other bands that didn't work, or bands who stuck around long enough to actually grow and change. I would consider Fueled By Fire to be among the ones who stuck it out long enough to evolve, I would also list WarBringer and Evile in that list, (I'm torn on Evile though, but that's another post for another day). Mason, Harlott, Power Trip, Noisem, Infinite Translation, Exarsis and Soldier are all great examples of modern thrash that are interesting, heavy or technical or catchy or groovy and bring their own energy to the subgenre.

If you've been paying any attention to contemporary thrash in the last three or four years, it's completely stupid and ignorant to discount an entire league of bands, especially when you say "thrash is your favorite genre".

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:30 pm 
 

Warbringer, Exarsis, Power Trip are the best of the bands you mentioned. All good, although none would make a top 20 in the golden days of thrash. Noisem weren't bad either. Mason never heard of them.

Like I said though, none of them are actually *bad*, they just don't excite and they sound SO alike.
Evile never took the step forward and they remained a Metallica-clone band with some good songs. Very likeable people but musically nothing to write home about. Harlott is another most typical NWOTM band. Slayer/Exodus/Testament, that's it. With the same vocals and production like everyone else. It's like you're trying to prove my point.

I have been paying attention and I am not discounting an entire league of bands. I love good thrash, yes, perhaps I have a higher standard. I want bands with CHARACTER that write GOOD SONGS. Thrash, death, prog, power, same standard. The worst offense is the vocals and the formulaic songwriting. Gama Bomb at least have their vocals to differentiate them from the herd and have catchy songs. Havok, Hexen, they had good songs and took a step away from the typical (although I had higher expectations from both). Lich King released a promising album with Born of the Bomb, but the best song on the album was the Agent Steel cover. That's the problem right there. And of course you didn't mention any of my favorites.

I love Nekromantheon and Deathhammer from Norway, both doing their own thing and they have the craziness to boot.
I love Trallery from Spain who are releasing their sophomore album this year. Aggression from Spain also had a very cool tech-thrash release a couple of years ago... From my parts, I very much enjoyed Exarsis last year, Bio-Cancer, Benefactor Decease, Chronosphere, Accelerator and Convixion (well, I've heard some pre-production stuff from the coming album and they made leaps forward). Ghoul is great fun. Hypnosia did it among the first and they were actually quite distinctive. At the time they dismissed them as Kreator clones but boy, compared to what is out there today (still) they sounded like pioneers. Deathraiser from Brazil, another band that is good, not really new but so convincing in their ferocity and put their Kreator worship to good use. And of course Vektor who pretty much embarass the entire neo-thrash scene and are the only band that I would put their albums next to the classics of the genre (I would for Nekromantheon and Deathhammer actually).

All these from the top of my head. Those bands represent what? 10% of what is out there? And I am being very generous. There are many, many great *songs* from the new scene but very few albums and fewer bands still.

At the end of the day, the most telling thing is that the best thrash releases of the past years, except for the three I mentioned (IMO) come from the old guard: The Gathering, B.A.C.K., Collision Course, M-16, Antichrist, Tempo of the Damned, Ironbound, Slaves to the Grave... I'd take any of those over any of the bands you mentioned. In a heartbeat.

Yes, thrash is my favorite genre.
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:39 pm 
 

It just sounds like you're trying to be cynical and find something you don't like. Saying the old stuff "sounds better" when compared to every. Single. New. Band. is a self-fulfilling prophecy, why even listen to new stuff at all? I slogged through so much of the bad retro stuff for so long that I think contemporary thrash is in the best possible position that it could be. I mean, I just don't agree with that assessment. That's it.

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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:50 pm 
 

Good for you man, I'm sharing my opinion too, what's the problem? I'm not being cynical at all, obviously you missed the part about Nekromantheon, Trallery and Vektor and every other good word I said about new bands.

I think you answered your own question though "I slogged through so much of the bad retro stuff for so long that I think contemporary thrash is in the best possible position that it could be". Yeah, that's it. If I eat shit for years, then even a decent hot-dog will taste like the best fucking gourmet food ever.

I listen to new stuff because there is good stuff among it. The problem is that I find one good song for every twenty generic unspectacular I hear. I am not a Lenny Troo Frasher type, I have bought neothrash albums and shirts but I am telling it like I think it is. That's it.
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Vic's Dungeon - Remember the Fallen:
Jeff Hanneman: Evil Notes and Sad Riffs
Chuck Schuldiner (Death)
Paul Baloff (Exodus)
Holy Terror and Keith Deen
Roger Patterson (Atheist)

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~Guest 98976
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:11 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
Good for you man, I'm sharing my opinion too, what's the problem?

Why are you getting so defensive?

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
I think you answered your own question though "I slogged through so much of the bad retro stuff for so long that I think contemporary thrash is in the best possible position that it could be". Yeah, that's it. If I eat shit for years, then even a decent hot-dog will taste like the best fucking gourmet food ever.

I think it's funny you keep trying to turn my words against me, but that shit ain't working. If an entire subgenre keeps getting it wrong for a period of time, finally hearing them get it right and knocking it out of the goddamn park is better than them just doing it right the first time. The new wave of contemporary thrash is walking all over the broken, ashed corpses of the "retro" thrash that existed back around 2006 and 2007 and just completely obliterating whatever they tried to do. And it's a glorious sight.

Most of what I listen to, I don't like. And I'm not even that fucking picky. State Of Euphoria got way more time in my CD player than it had any right to. And that's true for pretty much ever genre of music. I think the expectation of wanting to like the majority of what you listen to is some ridiculous, utopian, idealogical pursuit that is impossible to maintain. Listening to 5 bands get it wrong and then hearing the 1 get it right is like... that's what we do. That's why we even go so deep down the subgenre rabbit hole.

The idea of going, "yeah, this is OK. But it's not better than The Legacy!", and then going to listen to The Legacy for the 4,059th time sounds depressing to me. And then doing that again. And again. And again. There's so much old shit I absolutely love, but the idea of suicide-bombing some new bands, new albums, new directions for thrash at the expense of X old album sounds like the worst. It's great to have albums to hold up and go, "this is how you do it," but to compare most of what you're listening to, to that? Like, why? What does that even get you? If you just started listening to old stuff and are developing your tastes, I totally understand wanting to draw more of a hard line.

I'm fucking more than a decade this point into thrash, I ain't got time for that bullshit. There's too much shit to listen to, and too much shit to discover.

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