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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10527
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:48 pm 
 

Germany is well-known for having strict laws about NS stuff (to the point of, as Zodi said, absurdity, but oh well). This shouldn't be a shocker at all.

narsilianshard wrote:
For those making the "arbitrary guidelines are terrifying!" arguments, have some examples:

"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect." - Amazon's Content Guidelines
Anything that is "offensive or profane" is in violation. - Bandcamp's Terms of Use
"offensive or obscene" - Spotify
"obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd - Visa

Every major online service you will ever use has arbitrary guidelines when it comes to being able to ban/remove content. Some of them even include phrases like "we can disable/ban you from the service without a given reason." If this never worried you before, but all of a sudden a bunch of racists get affected and you're suddenly worried, you should probably ask yourself why that is.

Can't wait to see the panicky pearl-clutching over Amazon or Spotify's ToS now.
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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8816
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:47 am 
 

Acrobat wrote:
It reminds me of an old poem:

'First the virtue-signalling liberal cucks came for the NSBM bands, and I did not speak out - because I was not an NSBM fan'.

Act now, guys! Before they ban metal!

:lol: Political correctness gone mad.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:00 am 
 

All this banning just makes me want to buy shit I wouldn't consider otherwise*. It's like drugs, so much more interesting if illegal.

*I even own a confederate flag and I've never even been near the south of Trumpistan. One day it will be worth something! Or I can use it to offend the whole planet. Either way it will be some kind of Demolition Man sort of awesome.

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4793
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:03 am 
 

But is there ANY official statement? :scratch:

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narsilianshard
Veteran

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 3616
Location: PDX
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:34 am 
 

Why would they ever give an official public statement? PayPal is not a public service, and probably ban hundreds of accounts on a daily basis, just like every major online service does. This isn't even news. You realize this very board bans nazis without giving "official statements", right?
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PurpleDoom
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:47 pm 
 

I thought he meant from WTC or another affected label.

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Draehl
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:13 pm
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:16 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
This is an interesting point. Maybe they should be regulated like a utility. Are they regulated by FDIC or anything now?


That's the angle I have on it. There are corporations that have such reach they're (almost) a for-profit public utility, especially when it's related to tech companies where the userbase reaches critical mass like YouTube, Twitter, etc. that they eclipse most/all competitors. It's easy to say that a competitor will come around to fill the need, but will a niche even be recognized or deemed worthwhile for something as small as underground black metal?

That said, I take no issue with companies deciding to block transactions of blatantly problematic stuff, but banning entire labels is a concern. Especially when (incoming slippery slope) one album misinterpreted can potentially taint an entire label. Also, do we start factoring in artist's views that aren't expressed in the art? Burzum, for instance, I don't believe Varg's more extreme views are inherently expressed in the lyrics, album art, etc.

In the end I think this decision is okay, but we need to watch keenly for it potentially getting out of hand.

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Mass Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:32 am
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:46 pm 
 

It seems to me that this whole process started as an action against Darker than Black and everything else was spillover. WTC is run by a former Absurd member, so no surprise here.

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4793
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:21 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
Why would they ever give an official public statement? PayPal is not a public service, and probably ban hundreds of accounts on a daily basis, just like every major online service does. This isn't even news. You realize this very board bans nazis without giving "official statements", right?

PurpleDoom wrote:
I thought he meant from WTC or another affected label.

Draehl wrote:
But banning entire labels is a concern.

None? :scratch:

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PurpleDoom
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:37 pm 
 

You don't need a written statement from a label for it to be clear that Paypal has abruptly become unusable as a payment option... you could say it's an open question as to whether or not they were banned/suspended or whether they just decided to stop using Paypal, but I think in the latter case it would be more likely for them to issue a statement explaining their reasoning.

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Bates
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 82
Location: South Sound, WA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 pm 
 

Draehl wrote:
pale_horse wrote:
This is an interesting point. Maybe they should be regulated like a utility. Are they regulated by FDIC or anything now?


That's the angle I have on it. There are corporations that have such reach they're (almost) a for-profit public utility, especially when it's related to tech companies where the userbase reaches critical mass like YouTube, Twitter, etc. that they eclipse most/all competitors.


I'm sure that will go well. Which Trump appointee would end up in charge of Paypal? :hmm:
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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 864
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:05 pm 
 

I said this earlier but I feel like the important thing to remember here is that PayPal has been doing this for as long as they've been in existence. Only now, it's trickled into the racist metal world so some folks are just seeing it for the first time. PayPal has a history of regulating porn, drug paraphernalia, tobacco/alcohol, etc. They do not want to be connected to any transactions that *could* come back to haunt them.

For example, PayPal and many other money services don't allow "adult" related transactions in case people use it for illegal means (prostitution, for instance). Or companies that sell bongs/pipes/etc to prevent being linked to selling those products across state lines (it can be illegal in some states/countries). Now they have added businesses that are linked to racist/prejudice materials and groups.

Another example could be the legal marijuana business. Most financial institutions refuse to do business with these companies because it is still illegal at the federal level. This is why you have to pay in cash if you go to a dispensary.

Banks do the same thing. None of these organizations are required to do business with anyone - especially if they think the transaction could be nefarious.

This is not new. And they are certainly within their rights to do it.

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~Guest 474227
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:08 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:16 pm 
 

And now Moribund Records is no longer accepting Paypal due to "unethical business practices".

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4793
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:54 am 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
But is there ANY official statement? :scratch:

BasqueStorm wrote:
None? :scratch:

empirealgol wrote:

Thanks! :beer:

http://www.moribundcult.com/FPPAL.html

Quote:
NOTICE of Unethical business practices by paypal:

Like thousands of business now, we are not accepting PayPal. We apologize for the inconvenience; we do still accept all major credit cards, western union and other forms of payment! 'Due to the nature of activities' on our website (not our web-store), PayPal has permanently restricted our business account. We were given no options to correct this issue; we may safely assume that this arbitrary action is based on our affiliation with the Church of Satan and our evocation of the right to free-speech, which we've championed for, through production and publication of Satanic Heavy Metal. We take such unethical business practices very seriously and will no longer be supporting PayPal as a result of their policies and practices. As a Satanist owned and operated business, we will not cater to, nor will we continue to engage with companies or individuals that compromise our freedoms, integrity and/or the security and confidence of our customers. For basic Organizational Principles & additional reference please visit the C.O.S. official website: https://www.churchofsatan.com/espirit-d ... -infernal/

Upon researching the disreputable activity by PayPal, we are finding that the company has been engaged in actively committing various acts of 'harassment' since being instituted- not just with business accounts but private and individual accounts as well, and by the tens of thousands! Do a web-search and inform yourself!

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pale_horse
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 681
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:07 am 
 

Any individual users being harassed?
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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1621
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:29 am 
 

What density. If PayPal doesn't want to deal with labels that distribute far-right music, so be it, as others have pointed out. And its a nice try by Moribund to deflect that and make it about Satanism (which this has nothing to do with), but they've been dealing in far-right bands recently too (see Northern (fka Cold Northern Vengeance) as one example).

And it's completely laughable to invoke "free speech" when this is not an issue of censorship by the US government, as misinformed people oftentimes try to do (if anything, the current government in the US would laud this label for distributing far-right bands). No one's rights to free speech are being infringed upon by the government, which is what free speech in the US is supposed to protect against.

Again, if PayPal does not want to deal with far-right elements by proxy, then that's fair play to them (and I personally applaud this move). There are other ways these labels can process payment. Nobody's a victim here. Everyone will survive in the end.

As someone on this board once said, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". These labels free to deal with far-right bands all they want, but the risk of dabbling with far-right elements has ramifications, as we've come to see in this case.
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gasmask_colostomy
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 1639
Location: China
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:50 pm 
 

If you really love metal and stand for what you say you believe, isn't forgoing Paypal for your credit card a tiny little sacrifice to make? This sounds like millennials losing their shit about something that doesn't even matter. If I want the music, I'll just pay for it in another way.

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Zodijackyl
63 Axe Handles High

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7601
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:02 am 
 

I guess they didn't like the order confirmation emails that said "Thank you for supporting the downfall of christ. Hail Satan!!" :lol:

Moribund has earned a great reputation over the last 25 years, and is worthy of our support. Paypal can fuck off with whatever it is that they're doing, not that they'll stand behind it enough to explain it, because this is less than a drop in the bucket for them.

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BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4793
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:07 am 
 

Could this be related with this?
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=2824666#p2824666

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1516
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:31 pm 
 

k311250 wrote:

Yes, PayPal can do whatever they want as a private company potentially informed by legal penalty, but no, you're not a fucking Nazi sympathizer if such arbitrary language worries you, especially when a shit-ton of benign, apolitical metal bands have violent imagery or discriminatory lyrics. There is still a place for liberal principles and values in metal that exceeds the emotional safety of particular individuals, and it's perfectly fine to defend it.

It's funny how people like you claim to be neutral yet you are clearly siding with the nazis. Everything you said is just bullshit. The "benign, apolitical metal bands" that "have violent imagery" aren't really promoting violence. The same way a gore film isn't promoting murdering your neighboors. Cannibal Corpse lyrics aren't for real, only a child or someone really dense would think so. On the other hand, nazis actually stand for what they say and they have no right to voice their shitty opinions. There's a huge difference and the fact that you can't see it is what makes you a nazi sympathizer who's always siding with the oppressor while claiming to be neutral. You can't be neutral to situations of injustice, if you do you are part of the problem.
[/quote]

If it were as simple as that it wouldn't be such an issue. Pretty much the whole Martial-Industrial scene is going to get sucked up in this because in all the recent hysteria the ability to distinguish between using imagery and endorsing it wholeheartedly has gone out the window. We are rapidly sliding towards a place where unless you didactically spell it out as you would to a 10 year old any art touching on totalitarianism will be in the crosshairs. Joy Division, Throbbing Gristle,Laibach more or less the entirety of European Neofolk and Industrial - art which was made in an entirely different context and tradition of situationist provocation now perceived to be exactly what it was protesting.

As for "There's a huge difference and the fact that you can't see it is what makes you a nazi sympathizer who's always siding with the oppressor while claiming to be neutral. You can't be neutral to situations of injustice, if you do you are part of the problem." that's borderline hysterical. Personally I think moralistic scolds are a much bigger threat than the tiny number of actual nazis out there. But then that brings me to another point. A page back someone astutely put this in an American-centric context in light of the bizarre shit going on there....fine, insofar as it goes, but I'm not American and I dont really give a fuck what you people do to each other except in the context of your tech companies overreacting and applying solutions for domestic issues on a global basis. Put simply, there are no issues with Nazis in Australia (we have 99 other problems but that shit just hasnt taken off here), so I'm much more concerned about the collateral damage and inconvenience these kind of heavy-handed solutions to non-existent problems create.
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SD Plissken
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 126
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:41 pm 
 

pale_horse wrote:
Any individual users being harassed?


I'm wondering when this will transpire if it hasn't already. I have placed orders with some of the distros that have been blackballed.
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pale_horse
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 681
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:15 pm 
 

Regarding people saying to boycot PayPal, I feel like PayPal is an extra layer of defense to giving out card info on small websites. When it is an option, I prefer to use it.
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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1516
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:09 am 
 

I used to work in the E-commerce sector, and I tend to agree that it's become an essential part of the commerce chain now. As some have said previously, it's almost like a utility because its cornered the market in it's own niche. This stuff is part of the argument in favour of crypto/blockchain tech - what business is it of a basic service provider to apply moral judgement to delivery of service? Slippery slope for now, but look at the Chinese "social credit" system and see the future
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