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ADreamOfWolves
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 11:41 pm
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 pm 
 

A vocalist that starts crying in the studio during a song and it's actually kept in the song is something you see a lot of in DSBM. But, it can also spread to other metal genres. One of the most famous ones being Korn's Jonathan Davis breaking down and losing it at the end of "Daddy" off of their first album.

On one hand, I appreciate it when a vocalist just completely gives it their all and loses themselves in the music they make. So, if they start crying, I'm all for it. As long as it's genuine and not forced just to be "edgy". But, I've also seen people comment on it saying how ridiculous and cheesy it sounds. I can see this side as well.

Are you OK with vocalists that do this or do you instantly turn off the music once you hear it?

You can just skip to the 7 minute mark if you only want to hear Jonathan lose it in the studio. But, the song itself is pretty good if you want to listen to all of it.

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pale_horse
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 681
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:06 pm 
 

And that my friends is why we should add Korn to the archives.
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Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 10167
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:22 pm 
 

Silly pale_horse. Korn already was added to the archives back on April 1st, 2009. You just weren't around then to see the incredible debate that took place leading to their almost immediate deletion from the archives the next day.

A legendary day in Metal Archives history, for sure.
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Gunslinger21
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:11 am
Posts: 421
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:52 pm 
 

Um, what kind of people cry when they are recording music? if that happens then you probably should go see a psychiatrist or something. That's pretty unstable behaviour.

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 2390
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:18 pm 
 

I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Though not exactly the same thing, I do enjoy when a vocalist "loses it", for a serious example in Autopsy's "Robbing the Grave" where the music slows down and Chris goes insane laughing, growling incoherently, and then starts lighting up a bong.....or in a more humorous example, the sound of Glen Benton getting hammered in the ass during "Vengeance Will Be Mine". Those moments where you wonder "what was going through his head" while recording that part :lol:.
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Xymosys
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:19 am
Posts: 1247
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:32 am 
 

only sissies cry
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Terri23
Veteran

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 3175
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:14 am 
 

It's only metal to cry when Joey DeMaio deems it metal to do so.
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Xenophon
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am
Posts: 1184
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:23 am 
 

true_death wrote:
I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Korn vocals in general just sound like a grown adult throwing a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old. Always sounded cringey and embarrassing to me. Sorry Korn fans.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 1046
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:37 am 
 

The Boiler by The Specials isn't metal but the ending gets pretty hard to listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=METbQ6mnWzI

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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 174
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:42 am 
 

I think, as with any vocals, sincerity is the deciding factor. But then you never really know how sincere and honest someone else is, that’s trust dependent.

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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1560
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:06 am 
 

Fascinating topic. I did not know that crying was a thing. I like Korn and althogh I find the music path they carved along with Roots Sepultura to be very unfortunate, I admire Jonathan Davies as a vocalist.

Sincerity is impossible to judge, so I guess the deciding factor is how *convincing* the performance is, which is true about any kind of performance really.

I remember Martin from Skyclad sounds like he cries (about the environment) on It Wasn't Meant to End This Way from Jonah's Ark. Actually, I believe his performance is sincere and convincing but still, not my favorite Skyclad moment.

Speaking of convincing and crying (I guess), I became convinced Midnight was certifiable after listening to this, which is among my favorite metal songs ever (this means top 20 ever). I am pretty sure everyone knows which song it is without clicking, just from context.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:03 am 
 

I'd probably find it amusing and would wonder about the reasons for releasing it like that. Depends, I guess. Don't think I've heard a track like that.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4580
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:44 am 
 

To each their own but I don't listen to metal to hear men cry, women either. Not into whiny music though.

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~Guest 285196
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
 

The example that stands out in my mind is Silencer. The vocalist, Nattramn, is whimpering, crying, screaming and moaning throughout the album. I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, almost to the point of self-parody.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 3118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:12 pm 
 

Metal bands don't cry. Except when Dio died.
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DecemberSoul
Mirties Metafora

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 am
Posts: 1399
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:00 pm 
 

My personal highlight is still Quorthon sneezing.
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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 174
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:10 am 
 

raumr wrote:
[....] I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, [...]

That's more or less my view. But I find method acting fascinating and like the idea of vocalists who write personal lyrics feeling what they felt as they wrote them when they perform.

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299796kms
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:28 pm
Posts: 477
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:53 am 
 

Xenophon wrote:
true_death wrote:
I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Korn vocals in general just sound like a grown adult throwing a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old. Always sounded cringey and embarrassing to me. Sorry Korn fans.

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~Guest 171512
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:18 am
Posts: 2099
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:47 am 
 

I used to think that Rainer Landfermann was actually breaking down during the recording of 'Dictius Te Necare', because someone told me he committed suicide right after performing his vocals for that album (which he didn't). Regardless of the non-suicide, the question remains: was he really breaking down? I don't think so any more; I just think it was a damn inspired performance, and can be quite affecting when you're in the right (or wrong) mood.

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pfk505
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 420
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:53 pm 
 

Thiestru wrote:
I used to think that Rainer Landfermann was actually breaking down during the recording of 'Dictius Te Necare', because someone told me he committed suicide right after performing his vocals for that album (which he didn't). Regardless of the non-suicide, the question remains: was he really breaking down? I don't think so any more; I just think it was a damn inspired performance, and can be quite affecting when you're in the right (or wrong) mood.


Agreed, its a great performance, and I think Nattramn's is certainly an homage if not a blatant ripoff.

When I think of earnest, sincere emotion to the point of tears I always think of Uaral. People tend to criticize the vocals on their albums but I think they are sublime in terms of range, variety, and authenticity.

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g_k
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:35 pm
Posts: 944
Location: Washington
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm 
 

what about Nattramn? he always sounded like Yoda crying.
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blackmantram
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 997
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:47 pm 
 

Uaral has the most heartbreaking vocals I've ever heard in music. You can legitimately feel the pain and emotion put into it. No wonder they only released two albums, I can't imagine coping with all that suffering while recording. Just judge by yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaxcCrde2QY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp8J5OooyRs

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5153
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:56 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
The example that stands out in my mind is Silencer. The vocalist, Nattramn, is whimpering, crying, screaming and moaning throughout the album. I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, almost to the point of self-parody.


Whenever Silencer gets mentioned in theses kinds of thread I'm wrestling with opposing views on the matter because as much as I appreciate when music is such a genuine, uncensored and authentic expression of raw emotions, I can't shake off the fact that Nattramn is actually mentally ill and extremely unstable and can't help but feel that this guy needs actual help. I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record, and it made me feel basically the same. I don't know if I like the idea of commercializing the product of mental illness and making a profit out of it. But again, artistic expression can't be reserved to people who are mentally stable. Art is for everybody. So yeah... I'm still struggling here, haha!

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pfk505
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 420
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:53 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Whenever Silencer gets mentioned in theses kinds of thread I'm wrestling with opposing views on the matter because as much as I appreciate when music is such a genuine, uncensored and authentic expression of raw emotions, I can't shake off the fact that Nattramn is actually mentally ill and extremely unstable and can't help but feel that this guy needs actual help. I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record, and it made me feel basically the same. I don't know if I like the idea of commercializing the product of mental illness and making a profit out of it. But again, artistic expression can't be reserved to people who are mentally stable. Art is for everybody. So yeah... I'm still struggling here, haha!


I've heard these stories many times (Nattramn is a psycho, Nattramn was committed, Nattramn attacked someone with an axe, that's Nattramn's own blood in those pics in the Sliencer liner notes)... they always come across as more than a little exaggerated. Whatever his mental health status, when I first heard Dictius Te Necare (which admittedly was after the first time I heard Death - Pierce Me) I was convinced that the latter was a ripoff of the former. I think Nattramn's performance could just as easily be theatre as a genuine example of despair/agony/terror. I enjoy that album quite a bit musically, but the vocals only do it for me when they become more forceful (e.g. I Shall Lead, You Shall Follow). One thing is undeniable though, that people are still talking about that album after all this time.. it definitely leaves an impression.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Veteran

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 2956
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:12 am 
 

Matt Barlow, Warrel Dane and Tom S. Englund have a lot of vocal moments where they sound as though they are on the verge of tears. Matt overdoes it more than the others ("Melancholy", "I Died For You") but they all have their moments when it enhances the songs.
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Lane
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:54 am
Posts: 1088
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:10 am 
 

French avant-gardists Misanthrope's 1994 album 'Miracles: Totem Taboo' includes a lot of theatrical crying. It sounds damn awful.
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Last edited by Lane on Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gunslinger21
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:11 am
Posts: 421
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:06 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record...


I wouldn't call that a ''project'' dude, I'd say that's just fucking noise. Lol.

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SuspirianSuspicion
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:54 pm
Posts: 15
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:24 pm 
 

Not sure if we'll find anything else as over-the-top as that Korn song. Varg's vocals on the pre-Filosofem releases often resemble a cry. Not sure if it's a true example of someone breaking down in studio, but it's worth the consideration. Here are a couple examples:

Key to the Gate, @2:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnc8uKJt-vs
Speaking of crying, that drum blunder at @3:33 makes me cry...

Inn I Slottet Fra Drømmen, @4:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslfRgTjw_E

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Wrath6909
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:36 pm
Posts: 42
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:41 pm 
 

gay as fuck, crying???

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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 174
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:21 pm 
 

SuspirianSuspicion wrote:
Not sure if we'll find anything else as over-the-top as that Korn song. Varg's vocals on the pre-Filosofem releases often resemble a cry. Not sure if it's a true example of someone breaking down in studio, but it's worth the consideration. Here are a couple examples:

Key to the Gate, @2:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnc8uKJt-vs
Speaking of crying, that drum blunder at @3:33 makes me cry...

Inn I Slottet Fra Drømmen, @4:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslfRgTjw_E


I'd often thought that actually, not just Varg either but quite a few bm vocalists he's inspired/influenced, lots of DSBM stuff, Ghost Bath etc.

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Chadh0le
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:45 pm
Posts: 4
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:26 am 
 

Depends on the context. Charles Bradley breaks down a bit in the video but it is an amazing live cover.

https://youtu.be/z8qTC47S8Fw

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zen3001
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:58 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:21 am 
 

As long as it's not too often, I mean like over 30% of an album.
Metal is kind of a cheesy genre anyways, especially sub genres like power metal
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Aydross
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:21 pm
Posts: 552
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:35 pm 
 

Wrath6909 wrote:
gay as fuck, crying???


Metal is all about raw emotion, not sure why some people are so defensive about bands expressing a "weak" or vulnerable side.

Maybe it hits home for you?
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:06 pm 
 

vocalists breaking down = not metal
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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 174
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:08 am 
 

Aydross wrote:
Wrath6909 wrote:
gay as fuck, crying???


Metal is all about raw emotion, not sure why some people are so defensive about bands expressing a "weak" or vulnerable side.

Maybe it hits home for you?

zen3001 wrote:
As long as it's not too often, I mean like over 30% of an album.
Metal is kind of a cheesy genre anyways, especially sub genres like power metal


Art being an expression of a feeling or thought, music using sound and metal being more raw this’ll happen. But there’s a way of doing things that seems raw and intense and then too far seems cheesy, not far enough seems insincere.

Yeah, the “Man up and blah blah”, IMO, only negatively affects things.

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CloggedUrethra
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:30 am
Posts: 499
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:47 pm 
 

Xenophon wrote:
Korn vocals in general just sound like a grown adult throwing a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old. Always sounded cringey and embarrassing to me. Sorry Korn fans.

haha this is so true, along with their over-the-top "don't pick on me" lyrics. But I actually like it and the singer's pretty talented. Honestly, musically I really like some of their stuff, especially that first album they made where the only song I don't like is track 7. Way better than the awful classic Metallica albums I've been listening to lately.
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