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ADreamOfWolves
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 11:41 pm
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:58 pm 
 

A vocalist that starts crying in the studio during a song and it's actually kept in the song is something you see a lot of in DSBM. But, it can also spread to other metal genres. One of the most famous ones being Korn's Jonathan Davis breaking down and losing it at the end of "Daddy" off of their first album.

On one hand, I appreciate it when a vocalist just completely gives it their all and loses themselves in the music they make. So, if they start crying, I'm all for it. As long as it's genuine and not forced just to be "edgy". But, I've also seen people comment on it saying how ridiculous and cheesy it sounds. I can see this side as well.

Are you OK with vocalists that do this or do you instantly turn off the music once you hear it?

You can just skip to the 7 minute mark if you only want to hear Jonathan lose it in the studio. But, the song itself is pretty good if you want to listen to all of it.
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pale_horse
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 503
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:06 pm 
 

And that my friends is why we should add Korn to the archives.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 7869
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:22 pm 
 

Silly pale_horse. Korn already was added to the archives back on April 1st, 2009. You just weren't around then to see the incredible debate that took place leading to their almost immediate deletion from the archives the next day.

A legendary day in Metal Archives history, for sure.
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Gunslinger21
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:11 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:52 pm 
 

Um, what kind of people cry when they are recording music? if that happens then you probably should go see a psychiatrist or something. That's pretty unstable behaviour.

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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1572
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:18 pm 
 

I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Though not exactly the same thing, I do enjoy when a vocalist "loses it", for a serious example in Autopsy's "Robbing the Grave" where the music slows down and Chris goes insane laughing, growling incoherently, and then starts lighting up a bong.....or in a more humorous example, the sound of Glen Benton getting hammered in the ass during "Vengeance Will Be Mine". Those moments where you wonder "what was going through his head" while recording that part :lol:.
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Xymosys
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:19 am
Posts: 267
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:32 am 
 

only sissies cry
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Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2380
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:14 am 
 

It's only metal to cry when Joey DeMaio deems it metal to do so.
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Xenophon
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am
Posts: 828
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:23 am 
 

true_death wrote:
I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Korn vocals in general just sound like a grown adult throwing a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old. Always sounded cringey and embarrassing to me. Sorry Korn fans.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 721
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:37 am 
 

The Boiler by The Specials isn't metal but the ending gets pretty hard to listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=METbQ6mnWzI

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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 70
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:42 am 
 

I think, as with any vocals, sincerity is the deciding factor. But then you never really know how sincere and honest someone else is, that’s trust dependent.

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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 767
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:06 am 
 

Fascinating topic. I did not know that crying was a thing. I like Korn and althogh I find the music path they carved along with Roots Sepultura to be very unfortunate, I admire Jonathan Davies as a vocalist.

Sincerity is impossible to judge, so I guess the deciding factor is how *convincing* the performance is, which is true about any kind of performance really.

I remember Martin from Skyclad sounds like he cries (about the environment) on It Wasn't Meant to End This Way from Jonah's Ark. Actually, I believe his performance is sincere and convincing but still, not my favorite Skyclad moment.

Speaking of convincing and crying (I guess), I became convinced Midnight was certifiable after listening to this, which is among my favorite metal songs ever (this means top 20 ever). I am pretty sure everyone knows which song it is without clicking, just from context.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 41
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:03 am 
 

I'd probably find it amusing and would wonder about the reasons for releasing it like that. Depends, I guess. Don't think I've heard a track like that.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 458
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:44 am 
 

To each their own but I don't listen to metal to hear men cry, women either. Not into whiny music though.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 999
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
 

The example that stands out in my mind is Silencer. The vocalist, Nattramn, is whimpering, crying, screaming and moaning throughout the album. I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, almost to the point of self-parody.

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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 1879
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:12 pm 
 

Metal bands don't cry. Except when Dio died.
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DecemberSoul
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 am
Posts: 809
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:00 pm 
 

My personal highlight is still Quorthon sneezing.
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wednesdaysixx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm
Posts: 70
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:10 am 
 

raumr wrote:
[....] I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, [...]

That's more or less my view. But I find method acting fascinating and like the idea of vocalists who write personal lyrics feeling what they felt as they wrote them when they perform.

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299796kms
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:28 pm
Posts: 374
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:53 am 
 

Xenophon wrote:
true_death wrote:
I remember hearing the first Slipknot album when I was like 11 years old, and I'm pretty sure that in the last song, the singer did something like that. It was an obvious attempt to mimic the Korn song but just sounded really forced and fake to me, I remember thinking it sounded like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and always gave me a laugh at the time. In comparison, I remember thinking the Korn song was really emotional and depressing, but it's been like 15 years since I've heard either song so it's long forgotten now...

Korn vocals in general just sound like a grown adult throwing a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old. Always sounded cringey and embarrassing to me. Sorry Korn fans.

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Thiestru
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:18 am
Posts: 1927
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:47 am 
 

I used to think that Rainer Landfermann was actually breaking down during the recording of 'Dictius Te Necare', because someone told me he committed suicide right after performing his vocals for that album (which he didn't). Regardless of the non-suicide, the question remains: was he really breaking down? I don't think so any more; I just think it was a damn inspired performance, and can be quite affecting when you're in the right (or wrong) mood.
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pfk505
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 237
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:53 pm 
 

Thiestru wrote:
I used to think that Rainer Landfermann was actually breaking down during the recording of 'Dictius Te Necare', because someone told me he committed suicide right after performing his vocals for that album (which he didn't). Regardless of the non-suicide, the question remains: was he really breaking down? I don't think so any more; I just think it was a damn inspired performance, and can be quite affecting when you're in the right (or wrong) mood.


Agreed, its a great performance, and I think Nattramn's is certainly an homage if not a blatant ripoff.

When I think of earnest, sincere emotion to the point of tears I always think of Uaral. People tend to criticize the vocals on their albums but I think they are sublime in terms of range, variety, and authenticity.

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g_k
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:35 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Washington
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 pm 
 

what about Nattramn? he always sounded like Yoda crying.
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blackmantram
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:47 pm 
 

Uaral has the most heartbreaking vocals I've ever heard in music. You can legitimately feel the pain and emotion put into it. No wonder they only released two albums, I can't imagine coping with all that suffering while recording. Just judge by yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaxcCrde2QY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp8J5OooyRs

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 979
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:56 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
The example that stands out in my mind is Silencer. The vocalist, Nattramn, is whimpering, crying, screaming and moaning throughout the album. I just view it as part of the performance, it's an extreme and almost cathartic expression of the feelings involved, almost to the point of self-parody.


Whenever Silencer gets mentioned in theses kinds of thread I'm wrestling with opposing views on the matter because as much as I appreciate when music is such a genuine, uncensored and authentic expression of raw emotions, I can't shake off the fact that Nattramn is actually mentally ill and extremely unstable and can't help but feel that this guy needs actual help. I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record, and it made me feel basically the same. I don't know if I like the idea of commercializing the product of mental illness and making a profit out of it. But again, artistic expression can't be reserved to people who are mentally stable. Art is for everybody. So yeah... I'm still struggling here, haha!

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pfk505
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:04 am
Posts: 237
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:53 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Whenever Silencer gets mentioned in theses kinds of thread I'm wrestling with opposing views on the matter because as much as I appreciate when music is such a genuine, uncensored and authentic expression of raw emotions, I can't shake off the fact that Nattramn is actually mentally ill and extremely unstable and can't help but feel that this guy needs actual help. I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record, and it made me feel basically the same. I don't know if I like the idea of commercializing the product of mental illness and making a profit out of it. But again, artistic expression can't be reserved to people who are mentally stable. Art is for everybody. So yeah... I'm still struggling here, haha!


I've heard these stories many times (Nattramn is a psycho, Nattramn was committed, Nattramn attacked someone with an axe, that's Nattramn's own blood in those pics in the Sliencer liner notes)... they always come across as more than a little exaggerated. Whatever his mental health status, when I first heard Dictius Te Necare (which admittedly was after the first time I heard Death - Pierce Me) I was convinced that the latter was a ripoff of the former. I think Nattramn's performance could just as easily be theatre as a genuine example of despair/agony/terror. I enjoy that album quite a bit musically, but the vocals only do it for me when they become more forceful (e.g. I Shall Lead, You Shall Follow). One thing is undeniable though, that people are still talking about that album after all this time.. it definitely leaves an impression.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 350
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:12 am 
 

Matt Barlow, Warrel Dane and Tom S. Englund have a lot of vocal moments where they sound as though they are on the verge of tears. Matt overdoes it more than the others ("Melancholy", "I Died For You") but they all have their moments when it enhances the songs.

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Lane
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:54 am
Posts: 213
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:10 am 
 

French avant-gardists Misanthrope's 1994 album 'Miracles: Totem Taboo' includes a lot of theatrical crying. It sounds damn awful.
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Last edited by Lane on Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gunslinger21
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:11 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:06 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I remember that the guy was interned in a psychiatric hospital at some point and that he got involved in a musical project in which he and other patients were basically just going insane on record...


I wouldn't call that a ''project'' dude, I'd say that's just fucking noise. Lol.

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SuspirianSuspicion
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:54 pm
Posts: 11
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:24 pm 
 

Not sure if we'll find anything else as over-the-top as that Korn song. Varg's vocals on the pre-Filosofem releases often resemble a cry. Not sure if it's a true example of someone breaking down in studio, but it's worth the consideration. Here are a couple examples:

Key to the Gate, @2:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnc8uKJt-vs
Speaking of crying, that drum blunder at @3:33 makes me cry...

Inn I Slottet Fra Drømmen, @4:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslfRgTjw_E

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