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Vipunen
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:32 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:05 am 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA4yuz8qgj4

In retrospect some of his stuff becomes quite disturbing.

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Kveldulfr
Veteran

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:00 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
By that logic, there's no point in getting upset at Cosby's crime. It's just human nature for a man to want to dominate and subjugate women. And I shouldb't "be upset" at trolls and idiots because hey, it's the internet.

Or, you know, we can try to be better than that. If people aren't interested, well, they'll be shown the door.


As some people here know, I work at a prison and I've seen plenty of convicted guys of all kinds; from the 'starving' robbers that did it out of true need to the Cosby-like scum and let me tell you, some people is just that inhuman. Those kind of beings do really deserve a calm talking about how bad they are and how they should get some 'help' to change and get back into society? That scum never changes and should be put down for good.

Yesterday one inmate killed himself. He was about to be sentenced by the rape and death of his family: he raped and killed his wife and 8 years old daughter. He was not under the influence of any kind of drug or alcohol, he did it cause 'he felt sick of the family life' and wanted a new one. No one here feels any kind of pity for him.
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Thumbman
Big Cube

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:45 pm 
 

Don't know how anyone could play the "we can't know for sure" card with so many people coming forward. Dude is obviously guilty. There was evidence out there for a long time, and a lot of people probably ignored it because of the role he had in their childhoods made them feel awkward. Jian Ghomeshi is also the first guy who came to mind after hearing this, and thankfully it's likely that he will spend some time behind bars.
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:02 pm 
 

That and how people still believe this is some film/media industry conspiracy to discredit him, or, even better, how it's just the "liberal media" putting him through the grinder for being conservative more than it would a liberal star accused of such actions. (My mother actually made the latter argument when we were discussing this).
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:31 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
[Those kind of beings do really deserve a calm talking about how bad they are and how they should get some 'help' to change and get back into society? [...] No one here feels any kind of pity for him.

That's not what I was talking about and I certainly don't feel any pity. I honestly have no idea what you're even arguing about.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:55 pm 
 

It's only natural that people want some kind of vengeance/justice with scum like Cosby and I don't personally see anything wrong with it, taking into account the bastard got away with it for 40 years (?). If the justice system can't send him to prison, people is expecting any kind of punishment and I'm all in for a massive beating or any other way to make him feel at least a bit of the suffering he gave to all those ladies.

While it's true that a torture won't un-rape the ladies, to think otherwise is too lenient on such bastards. Since their crimes and own nature is totally beyond the current limits of mankind/morale, they don't deserve any civilized treatment.
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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:53 pm 
 

I think something like being forever confined to a tiny, cramped cell without anyone to talk to or interact with in any way should be sufficient punishment. Do you know what that kind of imprisonment does to a person's mind?

I'm all for solitary confinement for life when it comes to cases such as this. Feels like a much stronger, yet still humane, punishment than the kind of bloodthirsty fantasies that people tend to bring out when shit like this happens (something which I've been guilty of in the past, too).

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Nochielo
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:07 pm 
 

I don't think it's humane either. It's still very much torture. At that point some of them would beg for a bullet to the head. It's quite an old question: what constitutes proper punishment? I don't think the general population, many of us included, can reliably answer that. The only thing we can do is rely on our broken-but-at-least-something judicial systems, frustrating as that may sound.
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~Guest 282118
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:38 pm 
 

Well, more humane than the kind of punishment that people usually cry for in these situations, at least. I don't know, I think it's the kindest fate someone like Cosby should get. Which only illustrates your point, I guess.

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captain_che
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:22 pm 
 

My brother theorized for years that something was up with Cosby. He was suspicious because one of the actresses on The Cosby Show refused ever to appear with Cosby after the show ended. Of course plenty of actors and actresses don't associate with former cast members but my brother thought something else, possibly sinister, was going on in this particular instance. Turns out he was right.

But the scope of this is incomprehensible. This is the kind of crime that indicts the legal system as a whole. Obviously Cosby needs to be held accountable for his crimes but something is deeply wrong when the legal system fails its victims to an extent this terrible. Plus this seems like more proof that an entire culture exists to marginalize, ignore, and dismiss women in general. It's horrific that a first-world country still treats more than half of its population like second-class citizens. Even more horrific that the US isn't the only one.

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stickyshooZ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 pm 
 

It still annoys me that it took people so long to take these allegations seriously. I can understand maybe doubting a single accusation, and only a single accusation, but when multiple women started coming forward with details that are very consistent with one another it should have been a serious signal that there was something going on. So it takes 35 women coming forward before people finally see that Bill Cosby is a piece of shit?
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Blrp
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:12 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:02 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Did somebody say DEVIL'S ADVOCATE?!

Image

Granted, I don't know a lot of details about this specific case and I could be totally smackdown'd in the very next post, but it is estimated that 99.2003 ± 0.14289 × cosh(π/e) / 37^1.1 percent of people who hate Bill Cosby are about as informed as a medieval European farmer in a witch hunt mob, so I don't feel too bad about my ignorance. Also, what I'm really here to talk about is the reaction, because I don't really give a shit about whether the story itself is true. Frankly I don't have a drop of fuck in me for this whole thing, for a number of reasons:

First off, everyone already agrees that (female) rape is worse than the eternal damnation of all of existence, to the point where popular demand would have it that due process be replaced by a lynch mob and a noose. Meanwhile there are so many completely fucked up yet easily solvable things happening in the western world that most people don't even care about, and I don't want to get bogged down in an unrelated issue so I'll just mention prison rape as a relatively uncontroversial example. I remember reading that in the US, more men are raped in prison than women outside prison. Not completely sure about that one, but either way, it's fucking rampant and it's fucking evil that people are being sent there by the state (and that's just one of many fucked up things about US prisons).

That's not to say that any one individual is wrong for caring passionately about rape, but humanity as a whole would be far better off with a bit more rationality in selecting issues to care about. But this is not about rape; it's one individual case, and it doesn't matter. And while we all care about some things that are not important to the world, in cases like this it's better to keep your reaction to yourself rather than broadcasting it and perpetuating the idea that this is something to care about.

Another reason I'm not upset is that this whole thing reeks of mob mentality, and that skeeves me the fuck out. Wherever the mob is headed, I tend to keep a healthy distance from, because groups of people just don't function the same way individuals do. There have been studies where participants were asked to fill out a survey and then the room started filling up with smoke, and if they were alone in the room they'd just get up and leave, whereas if you put multiple participants in the same room they'd just stand around like morons, waiting for someone else to react and take action.

An individual can reason and be reasoned with, whereas a mob is driven by the basest of human instincts. Fear, hatred of otherness, dehumanization, the desire to fit in and so on. The mob mentality has had a hand in a lot of bad things, such as witch burnings, all those lynchings of black men in the US as soon as a white woman cried rape, and pretty much all social ostracizations throughout history.

To generalize the point about mob mentality, another thing displayed in spades in the reaction to this story is certainty, which is a feeling that's hardly ever warranted. Pretty much everyone who has ever lived has been both certain and wrong about pretty much everything. Even today, almost everyone disagree with you about something of which you both feel certain, even only counting people who are educated and intelligent. And it's not just this story you could be wrong about, but any of the many, many conscious and subconscious assumptions and biases that lead you to that conclusion. Now some of you might find it rather petty that I bring up these points since they could be applied to pretty much anything, and I would argue that they should be applied to everything, because certainty is one shitty thing about human nature that's not discussed nearly enough. Still, in this particular case I find it especially applicable.

Now, on to the actual issue itself:

We do know for a fact that some women lie about rape. They might do it because they want attention and sympathy, because they're embarrassed about a hookup, to explain away adultery or pregnancy, to save 13 dollars, or just because America loves and reveres victims of all kinds. Some say the frequency of false allegations is 2% (this seems to be the most widely discredited figure), some say 20%, some say 50%, and some say anyone who claims to know with any certainty is full of shit. This article says 5.9% of allegations at a large university are proven to be false, and just as rape is difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, so is the falseness of an allegation. Intuitively I'd say only a small fraction of false allegations are proven false, which would put the real number far above 5.9%, but that's just speculation.

Feminist Wendy McElroy set out to prove that false allegations almost never happen, but concluded: "even a skeptic like me must credit a DNA exclusion rate of 20 percent that remained constant over several years when conducted by FBI labs. This is especially true when 20 percent more were found to be questionable". Here's another article that says we don't have a clue.

It's certainly possible that the reason so many alleged victims are coming forward in such a short period of time is that they didn't dare before or didn't think anyone would take them seriously. But another possiblity is that once the ball had started rolling, more people jumped on to get their 15 minutes of fame. In fact, even if I believed that only 2% of accusations are false I'd still find it likely that there was a false allegation because at 47 allegations the probability that all are true would be 39%, and that number drops to zero quickly as the rate of false allegations rises. At 5% it would be 9% and at 10% it would be 0.7%. Of course, that's assuming the probabilities are independent and the more we knew were true, the higher the probability of repeat offense would be. But that works the other way too, and we have no idea how strong that effect might be. It's worth considering: if the first allegation (chronologically) was false, or the first two, or three, we'd become more and more certain very quickly that all the allegations were false and the rest were due to a snowball effect, whereas if we knew the first one or two or three were true, it would still be worth considering (perhaps even probable) that there might be an attention-seeking false accuser somewhere in there.

If I had to guess I'd say he probably did sexually assault some of them (by the way, I haven't looked into the victims' stories a lot but it seems important here to distinguish between rape and sexual assault). But I don't hesitate to listen to black metal musicians that have been convicted for worse things.


Last edited by Azmodes on Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User was banned for this post (trolling + ban evading)

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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2388
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:16 pm 
 

Blrp wrote:
Did somebody say DEVIL'S ADVOCATE?!

I'm going to assume this is in response to me since I brought up my curiosity towards hearing a devil's advocate, but I meant I wanted to hear an argument in favor of the statute of limitations (since I have literally never heard someone supporting it), not the Cosby business itself.

Blrp wrote:
There have been studies where participants were asked to fill out a survey and then the room started filling up with smoke, and if they were alone in the room they'd just get up and leave, whereas if you put multiple participants in the same room they'd just stand around like morons, waiting for someone else to react and take action.

Could you source this? I'm not doubting what you said, I simply find it hilarious/depressing (!?) and would like to read up on some details.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:24 pm 
 

Did somebody say BAN EVASION?
Blrp wrote:
Did somebody say DEVIL'S ADVOCATE?!

Actually, no. Also, that post is so full of gish gallop that it's really best ignored, but still, fucking lol @ listing Fox News and National Review as sources.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Grave_Wyrm
Metal Sloth

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:28 pm 
 

Thank you for putting this up, Morrigan.
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:25 pm 
 

The urge to inflict severe justice on a perpetrator of heinous crimes is a far, far more common one than the urge to rape someone. That urge is solely confined to sick pieces of shit. Mob mentality is still a strong part of the human psyche, after all it's not so long since people were hanged in public in many places.

Not saying that I support the idea of executing Cosby or having all sorts of nasty rape and violence inflicted on him, but it's hardly surprising that a lot of people do. I also see it a lot in people getting upset over trophy hunting in Africa, which is a different story with the same basic plot.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:27 am 
 

chaossphere wrote:
That urge is solely confined to sick pieces of shit.

Yes and no; I agree that anyone who commits or would even seriously consider doing such a vile, reprehensible act like that is indeed a sick piece of shit but the whole "sociopathic amoral bogeyman in the bushes as rapist" trope is both ridiculously uncommon and also does much more harm than good. Did you see the blaseness with which Cosby acted in most of the testimonies? I fully believe at least at one point he convinced himself there was nothing wrong with what he was doing... and the thing is, and here's the part that hurts, many of his cohorts and peers and possibly even lovers concurred.

And yeah, I'm sure a big part of it is because he was exploiting his "good guy" persona in the sickest, most perverse way possible, but the uncomfortable fact is, the fact that almost everyone even tangentially related to this story is desperately trying to kick under the rug and ignore because fucking nobody wants to deal with it, is that there are certain behaviors men in powerful positions (especially in the entertainment industry, but you'll find some variety of it pretty much anywhere where money is involved) believe they are entitled to.

I can only hope that more brave victims--of either gender, this is hardly confined to women--will be willing to step forward in the coming years. If there's any silver lining to these atrocities and permanently damaged lives, let it be this.
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:43 am 
 

People who delude themselves into thinking they're doing nothing wrong are far more reprehensible than those who admit they have a problem, when it comes to this sort of thing.

Random sexual assaults (statistically) occur less frequently as those committed by someone known to the victim, but generally the former are carried out by someone with serious behavioural issues. The latter are generally a mix of calculated druggings, coercion by means of duress, and predatory teenagers taking advantage of narcotically induced communication barriers (no means no but intoxicated incoherence means yes syndrome) - the rape-culture perpetuated by misogynistic assholes and self-entitled idiots perhaps, in some fucked way, stems from some fucked up sense of reproductive advantage-pushing, like the old "caveman hits cavewoman on head with club and drags her into the nearest cave" scenario, but it's mainly caused by the way society grants too much leeway to people who have a complete lack of respect for their fellow humans. Basically, a lot of people will behave like cunts if they see other people behaving like cunts and getting away with it.
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despotband
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:02 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:17 am 
 

That post by Blrp is just fucking sick. This guy is a sociopath, as demonstrated in other occasions under a different user name. And he hates women with a vengeance. It's disgusting how many of these types seem to be attracted to Metal. Then people still wonder why the ratio between men and women in metal communities is so biased.

Bill Cosby is obviously a fiendish psychopath of the worst, most dangerous kind: the type that plays the fatherly figure and earns people's trust. And I don't think he doesn't see any moral issues with what he does, he just chooses to ignore them.

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nekuomanteia
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:37 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:54 am 
 

So you would boycott a Cosby production. How about a Roman Polanski film?

On 11 March 1977, Roman Polanski, then 43 years old, was arrested in Los Angeles for the sexual assault of 13-year-old Samantha Geimer during a photo shoot for French Vogue magazine. Polanski was indicted on six counts of criminal behavior, including rape.[109][111] At his arraignment he pleaded not guilty to all charges. Many executives in Hollywood came to his defense.[112] Geimer's attorney next arranged a plea bargain in which five of the six charges would be dismissed, and Polanski accepted.[113]


Polanski in 2007.
As a result of the plea bargain, Polanski pleaded guilty to the charge of "Unlawful Sexual Intercourse with a minor,"[114][115] and was ordered to undergo 90 days of psychiatric evaluation at California Institution for Men at Chino.[116] Upon release from prison after 42 days, Polanski understood that at the final sentencing he would be put on probation. However, he learned that the judge, Laurence J. Rittenband, was planning to renege on his promise of no further jail time.[117][115][118] Polanski's attorney suggested that despite the fact that the prosecuting attorneys recommended probation, "the judge could no longer be trusted..." and the judge's representations were "worthless".[119]

Upon learning of the judge's plans, Polanski fled to France on 1 February 1978, just hours before sentencing.[120] As a French citizen, he has been protected from extradition and has lived mostly in France since then.[121] However, having fled the country before final sentencing, the charges were never dismissed and still remain pending.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:06 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I think something like being forever confined to a tiny, cramped cell without anyone to talk to or interact with in any way should be sufficient punishment. Do you know what that kind of imprisonment does to a person's mind?

I'm all for solitary confinement for life when it comes to cases such as this. Feels like a much stronger, yet still humane, punishment than the kind of bloodthirsty fantasies that people tend to bring out when shit like this happens (something which I've been guilty of in the past, too).


I pretty much know a lot of it since I see it everyday. Not going full pages about this matter, I can tell you that most of inmates are pretty sane, just assholes/evil by nature people. Imprisonment usually do 2 things to them: a) Teach them a lot to get more effective as a criminal (especially about robbery and homicide) and b) cements their own visions of life as they go out to be even worse. The amount of people who truly repent and change is less than 1% and they never consider imprisonment as a punishment, just an obstacle to get in the road again.

Before working here I also was one of those guys who said 'imprisonment should be enough'. Now that I've seen the real deal I think they deserve much more punishment.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:15 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Imprisonment usually do 2 things to them: a) Teach them a lot to get more effective as a criminal (especially about robbery and homicide) and b) cements their own visions of life as they go out to be even worse. The amount of people who truly repent and change is less than 1% and they never consider imprisonment as a punishment, just an obstacle to get in the road again.

Before working here I also was one of those guys who said 'imprisonment should be enough'. Now that I've seen the real deal I think they deserve much more punishment.


That sounds like an issue with not only the Chilean prison system but Chilean society as a whole. I mean more than 99% of your prisoners are incapable of change and repenting? Hogwash and balderdash, sweetie!
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~Guest 282118
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:17 pm 
 

I wasn't talking about regular imprisonment, Kveld. I was referring to solitary confinement. For life.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:24 pm 
 

Here there's no solitary confinement. The 'human rights' thing is too strong to allow that.

@waiguoren: You're partially right. Chilean society is usually pretty shitty and repentless but is changing a bit nowadays. The problem is laws are currently too bland and delinquents do whatever the fuck they want; politics use delinquency rates for election purposes so they don't care about doing something about it, since they can always promise they'll stop criminals (and most of elders actually believe them - that's changing, thanks to Cthulhu).

People here is done with this and there has been some lynchings. The police can't do much; they get the criminals but judges release them instantly. The political situation here is getting really delicate; people is totally disenchanted with Executive and Legislative powers and is actually protesting to both of them. Once people is done with the Judicial power the civil law begins (this actually happened here twice).
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:56 pm 
 

nekuomanteia wrote:
So you would boycott a Cosby production. How about a Roman Polanski film?



He's a hack anyway. Rosemary's Baby is one of the most overrated films in existence.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:34 pm 
 

Fuck no it's not.

Hate the sinner, not the work of the sinner. Or are you trying to tell me Wagner and Tolstoy should also be boycotted/ignored?

Who was nekuomanteia even addressing? Has anyone in this thread advocated boycotting everything Cosby has made or will make? Seems like typical nekuomanteia-ing to me.
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Razakel
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:48 pm 
 

I've "boycotted" Bill Cosby forever because he's a terrible comedian and has never made me laugh. And no, this isn't a revisionist opinion of mine in light of him being a rapist, I really just think his comedy is really unfunny and dumb. Lowest common denominator type stuff.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:56 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Who was nekuomanteia even addressing?

No idea. I haven't seen anyone either advocate for boycotts nor defending Polanski. Going into a thread about a scumbag and saying "but what about other scumbag?!" is just pointless, disingenuous nonsense.
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a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:20 pm 
 

I like how he just copied the Wikipedia page and didn't even bother to take out the broken citations. :lol:

Razakel wrote:
I've "boycotted" Bill Cosby forever because he's a terrible comedian and has never made me laugh. And no, this isn't a revisionist opinion of mine in light of him being a rapist, I really just think his comedy is really unfunny and dumb. Lowest common denominator type stuff.

He's never done anything for me either but The Cosby Show had a profoundly positive effect on the lives of many people, both black and white. His stand-up fucking sucks though.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:25 pm 
 

I wouldn't say it's "pointless" or "disingenuous"... not when both individuals are in the same industry and one of those individuals has already proven a method to get away with this crime indefinitely. There have been numerous defenders of Polanski over the years, and some folks have chosen to boycott his work as well, but in general - and maybe this is just the case of how public memory tends to work - the fact he was able to flee and stay in exile for decades has led most people to grow apathetic towards him (or at worse continue to feel powerless). He still does work in his industry; he still receives awards; he still gets recognition and actors as well as actresses still visit him. You have to wonder if the same "fate" will befall Cosby, too. Seems pretty common for those individuals who have wealth and influence. That's not disingenuous or pointless, it's telling.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:10 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
That's not disingenuous or pointless

Perhaps drawing a parallel between the two isn't, but what nekuomanteia did certainly was.

Even still, I'm not sure a single atrocity for which the perpetrator was immediately reprimanded should be comfortably paralleled to what Cosby did. The reason most people are blunted to what Polanski did is either because 1) they believe that rehabilitation can actually happen or 2) because time has healed those wounds or 3) they show sympathy for the fact his wife was murdered by a death cult just a few years before he committed the crime. Also, AFAIK Polanski has not been embroiled in any other assault (sexual or otherwise) either before or after what he did in 1977.

Just to be clear, I am in no way "defending" Polanski; he drugged and sodomized an unconscious 13 year old girl. Just typing that out makes me sick. But I see a big difference between doing something horrible once and doing something horrible again and again and again and again.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:21 pm 
 

Another big difference between the cases is Polanski's victim doesn't want to press charges and feels that his effective exile from the US has been punishment enough. Would she even testify against him if he were tried for the original crime? It's doubtful. Cosby's victims most certainly do not feel the same way. This isn't really the place to argue extensively about Polanski's case, we could easily have a whole different thread about that, but it's clear that some form of justice has at least been done, even if it's not the exact kind dictated by the justice system. In Cosby's case, he has repeated his crime many, many, many times, and suffered exactly zero consequences until just now.

I agree with darkeningday that the cases are only comparable in the very broadest sense.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:42 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Another big difference between the cases is Polanski's victim doesn't want to press charges and feels that his effective exile from the US has been punishment enough. Would she even testify against him if he were tried for the original crime? It's doubtful. Cosby's victims most certainly do not feel the same way. This isn't really the place to argue extensively about Polanski's case, we could easily have a whole different thread about that, but it's clear that some form of justice has at least been done, even if it's not the exact kind dictated by the justice system. In Cosby's case, he has repeated his crime many, many, many times, and suffered exactly zero consequences until just now.

I agree with darkeningday that the cases are only comparable in the very broadest sense.

She doesn't want to pursue charges anymore. That's an important point you've omitted; she's admitted that her unwillingness to continue to pursue charges is bore more out of how the justice system and media were so "slow" to believe her, and instead sensationalized her case, than to her feeling that his exile is punishment enough. Her comments make it pretty clear that she blames the "climate of the era" which allowed and still continues to allow powerful and influential people to get away and be defended by others of their kind and their fans. That's not justice. The only difference between that case and this case is that Cosby got caught doing it again and again and his victims have one another to support each other as they pursue any justice. It's pretty clear, especially from yours and darkeningday's posts, that "strength in numbers" is the only reason this has garnered the attention and backlash that it has.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:28 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
It's pretty clear, especially from yours and darkeningday's posts, that "strength in numbers" is the only reason this has garnered the attention and backlash that it has.

:lol: Next you're going to say that the only reason 9/11 has gotten more attention and backlash than the average car bombing is because of STRENGTH IN NUMBERS! HEAVENS!

I'm really struggling to understand what point you're trying to make here. Rich, famous people can use their influence to get away with crimes normal people couldn't? Public response increases depending on the severity of the crime? Roman Polanski and Bill Cosby are both rapists? All of these are obvious and not really relevant to...anything. Morrigan said it best:

Morrigan wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Who was nekuomanteia even addressing?

No idea. I haven't seen anyone either advocate for boycotts nor defending Polanski. Going into a thread about a scumbag and saying "but what about other scumbag?!" is just pointless, disingenuous nonsense.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:03 pm 
 

chaossphere wrote:
Barbarism begats barbarism. It's human nature, no point getting upset over it.

Aye, bro; I know that with being a metalhead and all, it's fun to play into the stereotype of fuck everyone / everything / we're all doomed anyway-type shit, but this line of thought in the face of actual fucking tragedy and misfortune is exactly what keeps us classed in with animals and feral creatures below us. We can think for ourselves. We can make rational, safe and healthy decisions. Human beings, as a species, are capable of doing so. Just because I enjoy sex with a female, doesn't mean I have an unending urge to violently rape any woman I see, and more often than not, unhealthy decisions and urges, beyond extremely poor mental health, exist in a cycle which through mental power, forethought and intervention, can be stopped, curbed or changed.

This isn't some seventeeth century bullshit. Your line of thinking is outdated and wrong.

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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:05 pm 
 

I can't believe you guys are preoccupied with celebrity sexual assault cases when there are starving children in Africa!
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chaossphere
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:14 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
BR abp="249">Aye, bro; I know that with being a metalhead and all, it's fun to play into the stereotype of fuck everyone / everything / we're all doomed anyway-type shit, but this line of thought in the face of actual fucking tragedy and misfortune is exactly what keeps us classed in with animals and feral creatures below us. We can think for ourselves. We can make rational, safe and healthy decisions. Human beings, as a species, are capable of doing so. Just because I enjoy sex with a female, doesn't mean I have an unending urge to violently rape any woman I see, and more often than not, unhealthy decisions and urges, beyond extremely poor mental health, exist in a cycle which through mental power, forethought and intervention, can be stopped, curbed or changed.<BR abp="250"><BR abp="251">This isn't some seventeeth century bullshit. Your line of thinking is outdated and wrong.


You have far too much faith in humanity. You also completely misinterpreted the point of my statement, which was in response to Morrigan's annoyance at people wanting to see Cosby raped or murdered for his crimes. If you actually bothered to read my previous post (the one after the one you just completely misread) where I made it quite clear that rape does not happen because of human nature, it happens because of social and cultural failings.
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chaossphere
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:16 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Fuck no it's not.

Hate the sinner, not the work of the sinner. Or are you trying to tell me Wagner and Tolstoy should also be boycotted/ignored?

Who was nekuomanteia even addressing? Has anyone in this thread advocated boycotting everything Cosby has made or will make? Seems like typical nekuomanteia-ing to me.


I'll quite happily enjoy the work of a racist or a commie if it's of good quality. However I generally find Polanski's films to be rather dull and the fact that he's a rapist just makes me even less interested.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:30 pm 
 

chaossphere wrote:
FasterDisaster wrote:
Aye, bro; I know that with being a metalhead and all, it's fun to play into the stereotype of fuck everyone / everything / we're all doomed anyway-type shit, but this line of thought in the face of actual fucking tragedy and misfortune is exactly what keeps us classed in with animals and feral creatures below us. We can think for ourselves. We can make rational, safe and healthy decisions. Human beings, as a species, are capable of doing so. Just because I enjoy sex with a female, doesn't mean I have an unending urge to violently rape any woman I see, and more often than not, unhealthy decisions and urges, beyond extremely poor mental health, exist in a cycle which through mental power, forethought and intervention, can be stopped, curbed or changed.

This isn't some seventeeth century bullshit. Your line of thinking is outdated and wrong.

You have far too much faith in humanity. You also completely misinterpreted the point of my statement, which was in response to Morrigan's annoyance at people wanting to see Cosby raped or murdered for his crimes.

I was piggybacking Morrigan's train of thought of "being better than that" in the post AFTER your post I quoted. I can make a few edits, but the general thought remains the same.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:35 pm 
 

OK this thread is going way off the rails. Can we please return to the original subject? I think we can all agree that Roman Polanski is also a famous rapist who got away with it and that raping/murdering/burned and died-ing Bill Cosby is not a civil solution.
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