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theneuromancer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:33 pm 
 

For some reason I cannot find the moderator who closed the report "Storm of the Light's Bane" otherwise I would have just PM'd him to resolve this. My report was concerning the band Batushka. They are obviously a satanic band that simply uses Christian imagery for the purpose of mockery not veneration, but the phrase clarifying this was removed in a previous report, and the way the page is now left is misleading since it implies they are a Christian or "White" metal band, which they are not at all.

May I please have some clarification on this?

The report I made included links to their satanic imagery (inverted crosses; Christ being beheaded in their music video) and lyrics (referencing Satan by replacing Orthodox prayers with the word "I" instead of "God") yet it was simply ignored and closed without any change to the page. I would highly appreciate some clarification on this, thank you
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:54 pm 
 

We don't make any of those subjective judgments about bands; what we record is what their lyrical themes happen to be. In this case, Batushka's lyrical themes are thematically Eastern Orthodox. Whether they believe or don't believe in what they sing about is none of our business, really, and rather outside the scope of what we do. We're not really here to guess what someone's beliefs are, or to make value judgments about their music, their scene or themselves. Our focus is on the music - what's played, who plays it, what is sung about, and when and where and how it came out. Beyond that, we leave it up to the user to make whatever judgments they feel they want to make about the band and its music -- with the best means for doing so through reviews -- but it's not the site's job to do that.

theneuromancer wrote:
The report I made included links to their satanic imagery (inverted crosses...

Well, I guess the Pope is satanic. :evil:
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theneuromancer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:07 pm 
 

I understand that but you are mistaken in calling this a "subjective judgment". It is objectively the case that the lyrical themes are NOT Christian; in fact they are the opposite. I am not talking about their personal beliefs but rather what is explicit.

Their demo album cover art has an inverted Orthodox cross on it, how can any metal database possibly classify this as Christian? Their lyrics essentially amount to them writing "not" in front of every single Orthodox prayer, again how can anybody reasonably call this Christian? Their music video has Christ being beheaded and maggots coming out of the virgin Mary, yet the database classifies this as Christian, do you think this is objectively accurate?
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--> Female, male, French, and English melodic black metal from Montréal, Québec:
http://vehemal.bandcamp.com/

--> Old school heavy metal: http://www.madparish.com/

--> Experimental project: https://soundcloud.com/neuromancerwintermute


Last edited by theneuromancer on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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theneuromancer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:11 pm 
 

The pope uses an inverted Western cross (the cross of St. Peter) not an inverted Orthodox cross that is found in their album art and music videos. An inverted cross is a clearly explicit satanic symbol, not a Christian one. Taking Christian prayers and negating them is a satanic theme not a Christian one. This has nothing to do with judging their personal beliefs it is explicitly evident in the content.
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--> Old school heavy metal: http://www.madparish.com/

--> Experimental project: https://soundcloud.com/neuromancerwintermute

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:25 pm 
 

When it comes to lyrical themes, it does not matter what their imagery happens to be -- it only matters what they sing about and the subject of their lyrics. That's the explicit. In the case of this band, their lyrical themes are accurately represented on their band page; they're religious in nature, particularly Eastern Orthodox, and very carefully crafted to be that way. They're not about Satan. They're not about the Antichrist. They're not anything remotely satanic or anti-Christian. Admittedly that's part of the band's assumed schtick -- as you say, an "anti-Christian" band playing religious themes and making it seem as though they are practioneers of Eastern Orthodoxy -- but that wouldn't change the fact that their lyrics are inherently religious and that there's nothing really anti-Christian within their lyrics.

I will admit that maybe it might not hurt to have an additional note on the band's page to clarify this, if there is concern that users might be misled into believing the band is a Christian band singing praise of Christianity. Normally that is the case for bands that sing about Christian themes, and so a note could be useful. But as far as lyrical themes are concerned, they seem pretty accurate.

On the other hand, the band has been pretty careful about being ambiguous about their actual religious beliefs, and so that kinda puts shade on their schtick. It's our duty to be critical of the facts as we know them, and so whatever note we did make has to be cognizant of that. Our duty is to be as accurate as possible, without relying on assumption and guesswork. It would be simply guesswork to factually state that the band is or isn't anti-Christian in their beliefs, because we just don't know them (even though we may be able to guess them). What we do know is that their lyrical content is religious, and so we note that.

Do you see why this can be awfully complicated, and why we may choose not to try to figure out a band's beliefs or intentions based on our own guesswork about them? Even if it might seem obvious to us, there's still so much that's murky and unverifiable. How can we be a credible encyclopedia this way? It is so much easier, and less complicated, to just state what is and not what we think it might be. We can verify what bands sing about. We can't really verify, unless they tell us, whether they believe in what they sing about.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:51 pm 
 

Added a note to the band's page.
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theneuromancer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:05 pm 
 

Thank you. I was wondering why the note was removed in the first place, since it was there originally to avoid confusion, but was then removed for some reason. Anyway having it back I think is definitely best to remove confusion.

As for their lyrics, you can do what you wish with the lyrics themes but I have to disagree that the theme is Christian. It is 100% explicitly NOT Christian in theme, regardless of their personal beliefs or imagery. To replace the word "God" with the word "I" is a direct reference to the angel Lucifer who substitutes himself in place of God and who urges other to do the same. This is THE fundamental philosophical basis for Satanism; that is, satanism is simply the inverse of Christianity. Instead of worshiping God, Satanists worship the self, meaning that all one would have to do to write Satanic lyrics is to do exactly what Batushka has done. In fact there is no more theologically/philosophically satanic theme one could write lyrically (that I could think of) than simply taking the most holy and venerated Christian prayers over the past 2000 years and replacing God with the self; this is textbook satanism.

Anyway I disagree completely that these are not explicit satanic lyrics, but at least with the note people will not be misled (both Satanists and Christians alike) if either one is using the database to either avoid or listen to this band.
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--> Old school heavy metal: http://www.madparish.com/

--> Experimental project: https://soundcloud.com/neuromancerwintermute

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theneuromancer
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 pm 
 

I just saw the note: "In spite of claims by others that they may be blasphemous and anti-Christian, the band is ambiguous about whether they are genuinely religious or not. The band "leaves its audience to decide what it is - black or unblack."

I thought your point was that the band's statements/image should not affect the lyrical themes? Whether the band is ambiguous or not, the fact remains that there is nothing less Christian one can possibly do that replace the self with God, in fact this is exactly what caused Lucifer's fall in the first place and is the most fundamental central axion defining satanism as aphilosophy, I think both Satanists and Christians would agree on this point, but I guess it's better than nothing so I won't complain, but I do strongly disagree that the band's statements about this matters at all when the lyrics, when considered in themselves, clearly speak for themselves. I do not understand how any Christian would accept this as Christian when the lyrics defile God or how any Satanist would confuse this with genuine Christian "White" metal but again I guess this is better than nothing, thanks again.
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--> Female, male, French, and English melodic black metal from Montréal, Québec:
http://vehemal.bandcamp.com/

--> Old school heavy metal: http://www.madparish.com/

--> Experimental project: https://soundcloud.com/neuromancerwintermute

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