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HamburgerBoy
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 am
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:22 pm 
 

cultofkraken wrote:
Yeah sorry there’s no fucking way anything on Painkiller comes close to Van Drunen extremity on Malleus or Consuming Impulse. That’s ridiculous hyperbole or someone needs a hearing aid.


Painkiller was extremely unpleasant when I first heard those vocals. Halford on Painkiller had some of the most intense, over-the-top vocals in all of metal. Van Drunen is harsh and mean but pretty easy to get into. He doesn't even do death growls on the first album (which is a fairly musically-accessible album as well), he sounds like a gruffer Lemmy or something there.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:26 pm 
 

Welcome to droneriot's world of being completely alone with an opinion on the metal-archives forum, because you're really fucking alone with that one.
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:39 pm 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
cultofkraken wrote:
Yeah sorry there’s no fucking way anything on Painkiller comes close to Van Drunen extremity on Malleus or Consuming Impulse. That’s ridiculous hyperbole or someone needs a hearing aid.


Painkiller was extremely unpleasant when I first heard those vocals. Halford on Painkiller had some of the most intense, over-the-top vocals in all of metal. Van Drunen is harsh and mean but pretty easy to get into. He doesn't even do death growls on the first album (which is a fairly musically-accessible album as well), he sounds like a gruffer Lemmy or something there.


I just... totally disagree. You have a weird take on aesthetics, but I’ll respect it.

In fairness, just went back and listened to Painkiller and threw on Consuming Impulse. Holy hell you are so off. Nope nope nope. Van Drunen sounds like a near indecipherable savage, Halford sounds slightly nasal but, I mean the guy is singing, it’s completely in the realm of mainstream acceptability.
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Tanuki
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:06 pm 
 

You could almost make the argument for Halford's Resurrection. I mean, 'Fetish' has got Halford shrieking about asphyxiation-boners. Painkiller, though... If that's extreme metal, what does that make the Death cover? Extremer metal?

Like others have said, I think it's mostly down to the vocals. Evil Invaders and Skeptic's Apocalypse are both speed metal albums from 1985, and only one of them's extreme in my book.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:25 am 
 

I have my CDs split into four sections: metal/hard rock, extreme metal, classical, prog rock/jazz/pop.
According to my system, extreme metal is death and black. Gothenburg do pose a problem. I have In Flames and DT in metal and At the Gates in extreme. I don't have any funeral doom albums, but I'd say funeral doom is closer to death/doom than regular doom.
And no, thrash wasn't extreme back in the day either.
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Epicureo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:55 pm 
 

Like you said OP, thrash depends on the school/sound/current.
Fastkill, Evil and Rosenfeld might be considered extreme, just like lots of other evil/violent thrash bands mainly inspired by the teutonic shredders of the 80s.

Speed metal can be quite edgy and cut a lot but I don't think it can labeled as extreme metal, not even stuff like Midnight.

Groove metal is the like polar opposite of extreme metal, at least for me.

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Tornado
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:06 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
And no, thrash wasn't extreme back in the day either.


I would have to disagree with this. In 1986, arguably the year thrash metal peaked musically, albums like Reign in Blood, Darkness Descends and Pleasure to Kill were some of the most extreme albums out there. The average fan of Saxon, Maiden, Thin Lizzy, Dio etc wouldn't have gone near them due to their harsh, uncompromising ferocity.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:43 pm 
 

Tornado wrote:
The average fan of Saxon, Maiden, Thin Lizzy, Dio etc wouldn't have gone near them due to their harsh, uncompromising ferocity.

Yet I did. No one saw them as any "harsher" or more "ferocious" then other metal.
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Tornado
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:07 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Tornado wrote:
The average fan of Saxon, Maiden, Thin Lizzy, Dio etc wouldn't have gone near them due to their harsh, uncompromising ferocity.

Yet I did. No one saw them as any "harsher" or more "ferocious" then other metal.


Yet I did. Lol. As did many others back then. Dude, are you really saying that Reign in Blood, Darkness Descends and Pleasure to Kill are no more ferocious sounding than Strong Arm of the Law, Piece of Mind or Sacred Heart are? Seriously?

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
And no, thrash wasn't extreme back in the day either.


But like I stated earlier, thrash metal gave birth to the two genres that most of us agree to be extreme metal. At some point, thrash had to be at least "kind of extreme" for it to spawn black metal and death metal.

That's why I don't like the expression "extreme metal". It doesn't refer to anything objective. It's just a word to describe stuff that non-metalheads or that the pop metal fans wouldn't enjoy because it's too intense for them. I've personnally never been a fan of classifying my music based on how it's perceived by outsiders.

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MawBTS
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:41 pm 
 

What music was heavier/more extreme than Darkness Descends in 1986?

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:40 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
What music was heavier/more extreme than Darkness Descends in 1986?

Kreator, Sepultura, Vulcano, Repulsion, Nuclear Death, Morbid Angel, Xecutioner (Obituary), Napalm Death, Hellwitch, Bathory, Mutilator, Sarcófago...
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Ktulu
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:22 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
What music was heavier/more extreme than Darkness Descends in 1986?

Kreator, Sepultura, Vulcano, Repulsion, Nuclear Death, Morbid Angel, Xecutioner (Obituary), Napalm Death, Hellwitch, Bathory, Mutilator, Sarcófago...


I would debate quite a few of those.

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TrooperEd
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:37 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
What music was heavier/more extreme than Darkness Descends in 1986?

Kreator, Sepultura, Vulcano, Repulsion, Nuclear Death, Morbid Angel, Xecutioner (Obituary), Napalm Death, Hellwitch, Bathory, Mutilator, Sarcófago...


Not a single one of those are heavier than Darkness Descends. Also, Bathory didn't have an album in 1986 you argumentative prick.

But back on topic, what makes a band or genre extreme metal are the vocals. Period.

cultofkraken wrote:
I mean the guy is singing, it’s completely in the realm of mainstream acceptability.


In other words, what this guy said. Same thing with King Diamond. King Diamond's vocal tone and style are indeed drastically different to what most casual listeners have heard of singers, but at the end of the day, the guy is singing.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:56 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Also, Bathory didn't have an album in 1986 you argumentative prick.

That doesn't make them less heavy in 1986.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:56 am 
 

Opus wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
Also, Bathory didn't have an album in 1986 you argumentative prick.

That doesn't make them less heavy in 1986.



If you're trying to imply that The Return (as brilliant and innovative as it is) is heavier than Darkness Descends, then :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:15 am 
 

Every single one of them is heavier than Darkness Descends, and probably a few hundred more albums from the time. Spending half an hour playing guitar trills doesn't have any particular heaviness to it. Some label offered to put out an album of theirs and they didn't have any material for it, they messed around making it up as they went and because there's no songwriting whatsoever there isn't any particular energy to it, just some basic warm up exercises. You're really in the wrong genre if you think bands can be heavy or even the heaviest without even writing riffs.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:37 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Every single one of them is heavier than Darkness Descends, and probably a few hundred more albums from the time. Spending half an hour playing guitar trills doesn't have any particular heaviness to it. Some label offered to put out an album of theirs and they didn't have any material for it, they messed around making it up as they went and because there's no songwriting whatsoever there isn't any particular energy to it, just some basic warm up exercises. You're really in the wrong genre if you think bands can be heavy or even the heaviest without even writing riffs.


Droneriot, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. You are a sorry, musically ignorant troll, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:07 pm 
 

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Develop a taste in music or at least some basic understanding of it, then we'll talk. The only trolling is the fake hype created around the album two decades after it was released by people who knew full well it was shit, just to see how many they could trick into buying into the artificial hype. You eat it like candy of course, and you probably only listened to it once or twice and the rest of the time you just read UltraBoris reviews over and over.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:46 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Develop a taste in music or at least some basic understanding of it, then we'll talk. The only trolling is the fake hype created around the album two decades after it was released by people who knew full well it was shit, just to see how many they could trick into buying into the artificial hype. You eat it like candy of course, and you probably only listened to it once or twice and the rest of the time you just read UltraBoris reviews over and over.



Do you have a source for this "fake hype" rumor your spreading or are you full of shit like you usually are? Also good job on that first smiley not coming through. Learn to code, faggot.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :getout:

Also learn that Darkness Descends is more memorable than whatever you can spit out of that empty skull of yours.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:51 pm 
 

I'd say as a kid in the late 80's thrash was definitely considered on the extreme end of the spectrum around where I lived. Some of it still seems extreme to my ears.

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PluviaSomniums
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:56 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:37 pm 
 

Pleasure to Kill imho is heavier/more extreme than Darkness Descends. Not as technically accomplished to be sure but it has a meatier production and meaner execution. Syzygial Miscreancy, too. Both are basically death metal albums.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 am 
 

I only just realized that I THINK (since there are a few albums named "darkness Descends" and I have not listened to Dark Angel in some time) that you guys are referring to Dark Angel's 1986 release.

If so, don't flame me, as I remember very much liking Dark Angel and have not listened to them for years now, but I'd consider all the early Bathory albums heavier and darker than anything Dark Angel ever did.

Dark Angel was thrash without black included and Bathory was very much black metal, at their softest black-thrash, but really I think most would agree they are pretty much the first example of PURE black metal.

I don't know if I'm stepping on a mind field between Trooper Ed and Drone Riot in this debate, and since I've listened to Bathory recently and not Dark Angel I can't be unbiased...but I have to side with Drone Riot here.

Bathory = black metal and SOMETIMES black thrash wheras IMO Dark Angel just = very inspired and pissed off thrash.

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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:31 am 
 

Speed, no. Groove, no. Thrash, depends--Vektor yes, Metallica no.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:33 am 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I'd say as a kid in the late 80's thrash was definitely considered on the extreme end of the spectrum around where I lived. Some of it still seems extreme to my ears.


But that is just the thing, that even though you are older than me (I was born in 1980), we have to think of what we STILL view as "extreme" now.

It's all semantics, cause some posters said that nothing from the 80s (or not much) would seem extreme to them now, whereas I disagree.

I don't know if I 100% think to be extreme you need harsh or growling vocals, but I'd say about 80% of the time if you don't you wouldn't be in my personal opinion, but it will depend on style.

I consider the earliest extreme music to be bands like Hellhammer, Celtic Frost (even despite lack of growling), Bathory, and quite possibly, even despite lack of growling, I MAY consider Venom to be the first ever extreme metal band.

I also consider Kreator and Sodom extreme, but it really all is semantics, and that's why it's fun to talk about IMO.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
Speed, no. Groove, no. Thrash, depends--Vektor yes, Metallica no.


What is the difference between speed metal and thrash metal anyway?

I never thought there was one, or if there is, it's just a matter of semantics I think, but I could be wrong.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:05 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
droneriot wrote:
Every single one of them is heavier than Darkness Descends, and probably a few hundred more albums from the time. Spending half an hour playing guitar trills doesn't have any particular heaviness to it. Some label offered to put out an album of theirs and they didn't have any material for it, they messed around making it up as they went and because there's no songwriting whatsoever there isn't any particular energy to it, just some basic warm up exercises. You're really in the wrong genre if you think bands can be heavy or even the heaviest without even writing riffs.


Droneriot, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. You are a sorry, musically ignorant troll, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Hey, that's the Billy Madison speech :lol:

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Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:23 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I'd say as a kid in the late 80's thrash was definitely considered on the extreme end of the spectrum around where I lived. Some of it still seems extreme to my ears.


But that is just the thing, that even though you are older than me (I was born in 1980), we have to think of what we STILL view as "extreme" now.

It's all semantics, cause some posters said that nothing from the 80s (or not much) would seem extreme to them now, whereas I disagree.

I don't know if I 100% think to be extreme you need harsh or growling vocals, but I'd say about 80% of the time if you don't you wouldn't be in my personal opinion, but it will depend on style.

I consider the earliest extreme music to be bands like Hellhammer, Celtic Frost (even despite lack of growling), Bathory, and quite possibly, even despite lack of growling, I MAY consider Venom to be the first ever extreme metal band.

I also consider Kreator and Sodom extreme, but it really all is semantics, and that's why it's fun to talk about IMO.


I guess so. I just remember the Ozzy, Priest, and Crue fans telling me that Kill 'Em All and Ride were just noise with no real playing, etc. Lets not even mention Slayer. Thrash was definitely the next level up and too big a step for many of the kids in my high school who loved their Dokken and WASP. I think you have to look at the times otherwise you are like a 18 year old today who thinks metal is Lamb of God or Hatebreed at the minimum and classic Priest and Maiden is dad rock, slightly harder than Aerosmith.

Listneing to Blood Fire Death lately, but is it that much more intense than Ride the Lightning? Vocally sure, but musically?

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:47 am 
 

Do kids today still listen to Lamb of God and Hatebreed or are they considered dad rock too by now? Considering both are among the bands used as examples of "modern" metal since I was a teenager, I really hope for the latter.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:52 am 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
Do kids today still listen to Lamb of God and Hatebreed or are they considered dad rock too by now? Considering both are among the bands used as examples of "modern" metal since I was a teenager, I really hope for the latter.



LOL yeah probably not the most current examples but those are bands with double bass drumming and harsh vocals, which is pretty much standard in most modern radio metal I've heard around here.

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:28 pm 
 

LoG were held up as the example of modern metal for so many years. Once that perceived "newness" wears off, hopefully more folks will soberly listen to their actual music and realize that their songwriting is worthless.

They're probably comparable to a moldy oldy band like Uriah Heep, Nazareth, or Molly Hatchett.
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:12 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I only just realized that I THINK (since there are a few albums named "darkness Descends" and I have not listened to Dark Angel in some time) that you guys are referring to Dark Angel's 1986 release.

If so, don't flame me, as I remember very much liking Dark Angel and have not listened to them for years now, but I'd consider all the early Bathory albums heavier and darker than anything Dark Angel ever did.

Dark Angel was thrash without black included and Bathory was very much black metal, at their softest black-thrash, but really I think most would agree they are pretty much the first example of PURE black metal.

I don't know if I'm stepping on a mind field between Trooper Ed and Drone Riot in this debate, and since I've listened to Bathory recently and not Dark Angel I can't be unbiased...but I have to side with Drone Riot here.

Bathory = black metal and SOMETIMES black thrash wheras IMO Dark Angel just = very inspired and pissed off thrash.


For what it’s worth I’m in agreement with you and Droneriot.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:51 pm 
 

Actually you know what, I'm willing to accept that Pleasure To Kill is in fact heavier than Darkness Descends. However, it is by a slim margin, and even then there are a couple of things that work against it in a pound for pound breakdown:

- Pleasure To Kill starts with Choir Of The Damned, a haunting but ultimately dragging atmospheric piece. Darkness starts with 16 seconds of raw feedback, a drum lick and a massive "big chord crash" that's usually saved for the ends of songs (there's an official musical term for this, but I can never remember what it is, and google searches with that description are usually fruitless). That's as no-nonsense as it gets. Hell that's a big reason why Reign In Blood is held in such high regard: press play and instant Angel of Death.

- While Mille's vocals are unquestionable menacing and nightmarish, are just not as fast as Don Doty's who tries his damnedest to get every syllable in at a million miles an hour, as opposed to the dumb grunts of death metal and grindcore that don't sound like anything. To the casual listener, a song's rhythm is determined by drums and vocals, and how rhythmically the vocals fit between the beats. Songs where the vocalist does a relatively easy speaking or slow cadence over a blast beat usually fall flat to me.

-Gene Hoglan's drumming has more finesse than Ventors. I understand finesse is not a very liked attribute in extreme metal, but when it adds to the heaviness, it works. and Gene's absolutely adds to it.

Heaviness can be subjective, but in my book, it's about intensity, fast will always beat slow. You really have to bust your ass to have your doom song out gun a thrash song, and when a thrash band puts that kind of effort in, they're unstoppable.

There's no denying that Bathory, Kreator, Sarcafago, Repulsion and a few other bands from 85-87 were more innovative to metal, but in terms of objective intense entertainment, Dark Angel has 99% of them beat, hands down.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:36 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Speed, no. Groove, no. Thrash, depends--Vektor yes, Metallica no.


What is the difference between speed metal and thrash metal anyway?

I never thought there was one, or if there is, it's just a matter of semantics I think, but I could be wrong.

Speed metal is, generally speaking, exactly what it sounds like--faster paced heavy metal. Thrash metal is more chaotic-sounding but not necessarily chaotic mechanically (though some bands very well can be), and while it does owe its existence to speed metal, power metal does also.

The difference between speed metal and thrash metal is as simple (and probably as definitive) as the difference between "Ace of Spaces" and "Motorbreath."
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:46 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Speed, no. Groove, no. Thrash, depends--Vektor yes, Metallica no.


What is the difference between speed metal and thrash metal anyway?

I never thought there was one, or if there is, it's just a matter of semantics I think, but I could be wrong.

Speed metal is, generally speaking, exactly what it sounds like--faster paced heavy metal. Thrash metal is more chaotic-sounding but not necessarily chaotic mechanically (though some bands very well can be), and while it does owe its existence to speed metal, power metal does also.

The difference between speed metal and thrash metal is as simple (and probably as definitive) as the difference between "Ace of Spaces" and "Motorbreath."


So basically, you think thrash is a heavier, faster and more chaotic type of speed metal, and would consider Motorhead's stuff Speed metal and Metallica's faster stuff thrash?

Interesting.

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree, or whether or not most metal experts around here agree with you or not.

I would kind of consider Motorhead just fast paced traditional heavy metal and metallica's faster stuff thrash.

I'm not even sure I consider Motorhead fast enough or heavy enough to differentiate them from bands like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden, just different, but maybe I might.

I have always thought that most people considered speed and thrash to be interchangable terms, and my guess is that if we ask others on here there are going to be many who agree with you and also many who think they are interchangable.

I'm not really sure which is the truth as people back in the 80s probably used both terms in both ways at times back when they were both relatively new genres.

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Lionel Fauquier
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:40 pm 
 

Well I personally don't consider the " extreme metal " tag useful at all , but with that said I'd say that thrash metal ( especially harder edged thrash metal ) can be considered to be extreme when compared to traditional/power/speed metal . When it comes to black/death/grind then the common grouping generally doesn't hold up as well IMHO .

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Tanuki
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:13 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I have always thought that most people considered speed and thrash to be interchangable terms, and my guess is that if we ask others on here there are going to be many who agree with you and also many who think they are interchangable.

The genres definitely acknowledge each other, and adding to the confusion is "speed/thrash", which usually refers to any speed metal band that carries a bit of malice in its riffs or vocals, like Whiplash, Exciter, Meliah Rage, and I'd even call Kill 'Em All that, honestly. So yeah, the similarity is there, but they're completely different genres if you ask me.

Tröjan - Chasing the Storm
Morbid Saint - Spectrum of Death

Note how completely barbaric (and extreme) thrash metal can get, whereas speed metal focuses more on intricate harmonizing riffs and an abidance to vocal melody. Which is why Zelkiiro's right when he said speed metal can really never be considered extreme. Even when the production is as terrible as Tröjan's.

And as for all the goobers that say speed metal isn't a proper genre...

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:55 am 
 

Tanuki wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I have always thought that most people considered speed and thrash to be interchangable terms, and my guess is that if we ask others on here there are going to be many who agree with you and also many who think they are interchangable.

The genres definitely acknowledge each other, and adding to the confusion is "speed/thrash", which usually refers to any speed metal band that carries a bit of malice in its riffs or vocals, like Whiplash, Exciter, Meliah Rage, and I'd even call Kill 'Em All that, honestly. So yeah, the similarity is there, but they're completely different genres if you ask me.

Tröjan - Chasing the Storm
Morbid Saint - Spectrum of Death

Note how completely barbaric (and extreme) thrash metal can get, whereas speed metal focuses more on intricate harmonizing riffs and an abidance to vocal melody. Which is why Zelkiiro's right when he said speed metal can really never be considered extreme. Even when the production is as terrible as Tröjan's.

And as for all the goobers that say speed metal isn't a proper genre...


So Trojan is your example of speed metal here and Morbid Saint of thrash?

Well I love that Morbid Saint album and it's certainly heavy thrash, and I'd never heard Trojan before, but upon listening to them they sound a lot like Running Wild to me who is generally considered Power Metal, and they also sound very NWOBHM influenced, probably by bands like Diamond Head and Angel Witch.

In checking Running Wild's page, they are considered heavy, power and speed, but I could just see leaving the speed out altogether when it comes to Running Wild.

Honestly, you could even leave out the Power Metal with that band Trojan and just call them pretty generic heavy metal IMO and I'd be fine with it.

No offense of course, but that example doesn't prove to me that speed is a unique genre, nor does the Motorhead comparison as I just see them as fast paced heavy metal and rock and roll.

I'd REALLY need an example of a genre that is distinct from not just thrash but power metal and all forms of traditional heavy metal, and I'm not quite sure that exists without falling into one of those.

I'm still going with it as interchangable with thrash.

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PurpleDoom
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:41 am 
 

Running Wild gets the mixed genre label because they underwent a gradual shift from speed metal on the first couple of records to a hybrid style and finally to mostly power metal. A bunch of other German bands had a similar evolution. Compare one of their first two records to something they put out in the 90s - there are absolutely shared elements, it's not like it's two entirely different bands, but it would be a stretch to say you could drop the speed metal tag on those early records since they're, well, predominantly speed metal with only a little bit of the power metal they'd become. The German scene in the 80s as a whole might prove a fruitful place to look in identifying the differences between thrash and speed: what's the difference between Gates to Purgatory and Pleasure to Kill? Or Battalions of Fear and Persecution Mania?

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joppek
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Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:12 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I would kind of consider Motorhead just fast paced traditional heavy metal


you have just described speed metal

you say that you see speed and thrash as interchangeable, but speed is a lot closer to trad heavy than thrash - often just nwobhm played faster. after that, some speed metal bands lean more towards a thrashy sound, while others are more proto power metal
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