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Damballah
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm
Posts: 98
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:44 pm 
 

But Goth Music evolved from postpunk and in Bands like "Sirenia" i can sense none of this influence.

Here is a Goth Song:
Youtube: show
Totally different atmosphere than above mentioned bands.
Energy is totally different. It's just one example of many of course... But thats what i'm talking about.. since when does Gothic became a synonym for "slow and acoustic guitar (and female vox)" ?

If we're beeing rational it all comes down to how much Sisters of Mercy - influence do you have in your Metal to call it Gothic Metal.

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The_Apex_of_Collapse
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:29 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:48 pm 
 

Rosner wrote:
Also, it seems like the industrial/dance culture is often associated with the word 'gothic'. I understand bands that have a dark synthpop/darkwave sound like De/Vision or Cold Cave, but music that seems straight out of the rave from Blade's opening scene


That sound had nothing to do with Gothic though. That specific sound is called ACID and could be attached to Trance, techno, house, etc. the sound is created by a synthesizer called the TB-303 and its famous for its 18db filter that could make it scream when the resonance is turned up high and you crank the filter. Adding amps/distortion to it made it sound mean as hell. When Blade used the song (New order - Confusion (Pump panel Mix) The acid sound was at its height and lots of movie soundtracks were using songs from the various genres that were doing the acid thing.

That being said, if you actually like the sound hit me with a PM as my knowledge runs pretty deep and I can give you some recs.
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Damballah
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm
Posts: 98
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:58 pm 
 

The Industrial/Electronic Scene is connected to Goth Culture through 80's Synthesizer Music. Bands like Cabaret Voltaire played music since 1979 and used a lot of electronic elements early on

Basically this:
Youtube: show


evolved to this:
Youtube: show


Sometimes i wonder myself how can all this music placed under the same genre term.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:33 pm 
 

Damballah wrote:
But Goth Music evolved from postpunk and in Bands like "Sirenia" i can sense none of this influence.

Here is a Goth Song:
Youtube: show
Totally different atmosphere than above mentioned bands.
Energy is totally different. It's just one example of many of course... But thats what i'm talking about.. since when does Gothic became a synonym for "slow and acoustic guitar (and female vox)" ?

If we're beeing rational it all comes down to how much Sisters of Mercy - influence do you have in your Metal to call it Gothic Metal.

The influence isn't obvious, but it's there. Listen to this Sirenia song, it's definitely influenced by gothic rock. The clean guitars at the start are totally gothic, the drum beat and bass after the distorted guitars are gothic too.

Even though gothic rock evolved from post-punk, a lot of it doesn't sound like post-punk. Check out Elusive's debut, it's a band formed by members of Tristania/Sirenia and Theatre of Tragedy. They definitely don't sound like post-punk, but you can't deny they are gothic rock. This is an example of the third wave of gothic rock. In the starting post they were referred to as not true according to goths, but the thing is that genres evolve. Black metal today doesn't sound like thrash metal of the 80's from which if evolved. There are original black metallers from the 80's who don't like the second wave of black metal. I think it's the same with gothic rock. Even though bands like Elusive and Paralyzed Age don't sound like post-punk, they are still gothic rock.

If you listen to Fields of the Nephilim's Elizium (an example of a true gothic rock album that was very influential to gothic metal, if you don't believe me, compare Sirenia's In Sumerian Haze to the last two songs of that album, the atmosphere is identical) or to Elusive, Paralyzed Age, and Love like Blood you'll hear a lot of similarities with the gothic metal bands. Yeah, it's mostly just the drum beat, bass, clean guitars and vocals, but that's already enough to make a band gothic metal. Gothic metal bands definitely have an "alien" quality to them, they have elements that are simply not present in the other metal genres. If you were to label Sirenia's Sister Nightfall as some other genre apart from gothic metal, what would it be? These gothic elements that Morten Veland uses are simply not present in the other genres.

Some bands even borrow whole riffs from gothic rock bands. A riff from Lethean River by Tristania is a straight copy from Sisters of Mercy Vision Thing.

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LycanthropeMoon
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 216
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:21 pm 
 

That really, really depends on the type of gothic metal you're listening to. Early and late Theatre of Tragedy, early Sirenia, Beseech, Type O Negative, Moonspell, Sentenced after they switched from death metal (and Crematory too come to think of it), The Sins of Thy Beloved - there's some clear post-punk and gothic rock influence in all of that. I have no problem with that being connected to "real goth music". Even Therion's "Theli" album has some pretty obvious gothic rock influence in it. Hell, "Saffron's Curse" by Cradle of Filth sounds like goth rock before it starts speeding up.

Now, bands like Nightwish, Epica, Visions of Atlantis, Amberian Dawn and Edenbridge aren't particularly gothic - those are power metal bands, and they seem to get lumped in with gothic metal simply due to the fact that there's keyboards/orchestra and a woman singing. I have nothing against those bands mind you (I'm quite fond of earlier NW and I dig most of Epica's work), it's just annoying that they get tagged 'gothic' all the time.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:14 pm 
 

LycanthropeMoon wrote:
That really, really depends on the type of gothic metal you're listening to. Early and late Theatre of Tragedy, early Sirenia, Beseech, Type O Negative, Moonspell, Sentenced after they switched from death metal (and Crematory too come to think of it), The Sins of Thy Beloved - there's some clear post-punk and gothic rock influence in all of that. I have no problem with that being connected to "real goth music". Even Therion's "Theli" album has some pretty obvious gothic rock influence in it. Hell, "Saffron's Curse" by Cradle of Filth sounds like goth rock before it starts speeding up.

Now, bands like Nightwish, Epica, Visions of Atlantis, Amberian Dawn and Edenbridge aren't particularly gothic - those are power metal bands, and they seem to get lumped in with gothic metal simply due to the fact that there's keyboards/orchestra and a woman singing. I have nothing against those bands mind you (I'm quite fond of earlier NW and I dig most of Epica's work), it's just annoying that they get tagged 'gothic' all the time.

I agree with you, however, where do you hear gothic rock elements in The Sins of Thy Beloved? I recently argued that they are just symphonic doom metal, and nobody gave me an example of a song of theirs that has gothic rock elements. Only one song from the second album kinda sounds gothic.

And not even bands like Moonspell are considered gothic music by real goths.

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Bates
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:28 pm
Posts: 79
Location: South Sound, WA
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:39 am 
 

What real goths? The retirement age folks who were into the original batcave stuff? The current crop of kids fetishizing those days? Or mallgoths who don't like anything that doesn't have a florescent color scheme overriding the proper bleakness?

At the end of the day, there is no good objective discernment of 'goth', as it has more to do with the use of a certain sound palette and overarching themes of romanticized depression, not so much a specific beat, or instrumentation, or anything easily quantified, as the emotional value of music is easy to feel, but hard to describe. I'm with LycanthropeMoon and the other previous posters in that the Nightwish/Epica strain is def not goth and right the fuck out.
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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:00 pm 
 

Bates wrote:
What real goths? The retirement age folks who were into the original batcave stuff? The current crop of kids fetishizing those days? Or mallgoths who don't like anything that doesn't have a florescent color scheme overriding the proper bleakness?

At the end of the day, there is no good objective discernment of 'goth', as it has more to do with the use of a certain sound palette and overarching themes of romanticized depression, not so much a specific beat, or instrumentation, or anything easily quantified, as the emotional value of music is easy to feel, but hard to describe. I'm with LycanthropeMoon and the other previous posters in that the Nightwish/Epica strain is def not goth and right the fuck out.

Well, from what I saw in the goth forums, gothic metal is usually brought up to show one's elitism. It's the same way nu-metal is used by metalheads. So if someone likes gothic metal, he's an untrue goth and a poseur. Kinda like untrue black metallers listening to Dimmu Borgir.
I also saw goths bashing metal musicians' neoclassical darkwave projects like Elend and Dargaard.

Obviously, I don't know how it was in the 90's and early 00's in the pre-Internet era, but probably "true goths" laughed at those people who listened to Tristania, Moonspell, etc...

Overall, I think there are two variety of goths, one of them is about the music (and there are further subcultures within this group), the other is about gothic fashion. I got an impression that the second group likes gothic metal, but they are usually viewed as poseurs by the first one.

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Damballah
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm
Posts: 98
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:01 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
Overall, I think there are two variety of goths, one of them is about the music (and there are further subcultures within this group), the other is about gothic fashion. I got an impression that the second group likes gothic metal, but they are usually viewed as poseurs by the first one.


I disagree strongly with that comment. Even the 80's Goth who evolved from Postpunk give a damn lot about fashion these days. Check this out: https://www.pinterest.de/phill9339/deathrock/

It may seem casual and rancid but it's actually quite thoughtful how they dress. I'm not saying every Goth gives a lot about clothes or anything. But compared to Metal listeners? You can damn sure bet there is a lot more people who are GOTHS (by the definition of batcavers) who care about style (and gothic fashion). Myself, someone who is his whole life into Black Metal and in addition just lately into Batcave/Deathrock/Darkwave i find this quite fascinating. Rancid but thoughtful dressed. Kinda like first wave Black Metal listeners these days, yeah. Give them a comment about their Petroff jacket and they will ejaculate.

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Diplomate
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:31 pm 
 

Damballah wrote:
Diplomate wrote:
Overall, I think there are two variety of goths, one of them is about the music (and there are further subcultures within this group), the other is about gothic fashion. I got an impression that the second group likes gothic metal, but they are usually viewed as poseurs by the first one.


I disagree strongly with that comment. Even the 80's Goth who evolved from Postpunk give a damn lot about fashion these days. Check this out: https://www.pinterest.de/phill9339/deathrock/

It may seem casual and rancid but it's actually quite thoughtful how they dress. I'm not saying every Goth gives a lot about clothes or anything. But compared to Metal listeners? You can damn sure bet there is a lot more people who are GOTHS (by the definition of batcavers) who care about style (and gothic fashion). Myself, someone who is his whole life into Black Metal and in addition just lately into Batcave/Deathrock/Darkwave i find this quite fascinating. Rancid but thoughtful dressed. Kinda like first wave Black Metal listeners these days, yeah. Give them a comment about their Petroff jacket and they will ejaculate.

Yeah, I never really believed that "true goth" lie that it's all about the music, they clearly focus a lot on the fashion. But the difference between the two categories of goth is that the first one isn't gothic. The pictures that you linked have nothing to do with Romanticism, gothic poetry, elaborate dresses, etc. But the second category dresses in that fashion.

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Damballah
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm
Posts: 98
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:06 pm 
 

Diplomate wrote:
Damballah wrote:
Diplomate wrote:
Overall, I think there are two variety of goths, one of them is about the music (and there are further subcultures within this group), the other is about gothic fashion. I got an impression that the second group likes gothic metal, but they are usually viewed as poseurs by the first one.


I disagree strongly with that comment. Even the 80's Goth who evolved from Postpunk give a damn lot about fashion these days. Check this out: https://www.pinterest.de/phill9339/deathrock/

It may seem casual and rancid but it's actually quite thoughtful how they dress. I'm not saying every Goth gives a lot about clothes or anything. But compared to Metal listeners? You can damn sure bet there is a lot more people who are GOTHS (by the definition of batcavers) who care about style (and gothic fashion). Myself, someone who is his whole life into Black Metal and in addition just lately into Batcave/Deathrock/Darkwave i find this quite fascinating. Rancid but thoughtful dressed. Kinda like first wave Black Metal listeners these days, yeah. Give them a comment about their Petroff jacket and they will ejaculate.

Yeah, I never really believed that "true goth" lie that it's all about the music, they clearly focus a lot on the fashion. But the difference between the two categories of goth is that the first one isn't gothic. The pictures that you linked have nothing to do with Romanticism, gothic poetry, elaborate dresses, etc. But the second category dresses in that fashion.


You're talking about victorian fashion... But honestly i never saw that in connection with Gothic Music. It's more of a historical reenactment (to me). I was at Wave Gothic Festival (the biggest goth festival in the world)in Leipzig, Germany this year and they have an event called "Victorian Picnic". Basically people go there all dressed up in victorian clothes and sit down with a blanket on the grass (in a park). Some even wear white wigs, like back in the day. It's pretty interresting to see....but nobody there played music or something. It was more or less a pure "look how dressed up" thing.

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