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SmallPoxie
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:56 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:58 pm 
 

Most of us have heard about the "NSBM" movement or bands (any genre) that support Nazism, Racism, Fascism, Xenophobia and more of that stuff.

The thing is some people like the band's music but they don't like or support the band's beliefs or ideology and they listen to that band only for fun.

My experiences: I know friends who have been called "Nazis" or "Racists" only because they listen to Deathspell Omega or Goatmoon.
And i have been called a "Fascist", "Racist", "Nazi" and more only because i listen to Anal Cunt. Not necessary to mention that i don't support such things.

Experiences like this? Or thoughts?

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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:07 pm 
 

SmallPoxie wrote:
Most of us have heard about the "NSBM" movement or bands (any genre) that support Nazism, Racism, Fascism, Xenophobia and more of that stuff.

The thing is some people like the band's music but they don't like or support the band's beliefs or ideology and they listen to that band only for fun.

My experiences: I know friends who have been called "Nazis" or "Racists" only because they listen to Deathspell Omega or Goatmoon.
And i have been called a "Fascist", "Racist", "Nazi" and more only because i listen to Anal Cunt. Not necessary to mention that i don't support such things.

Experiences like this? Or thoughts?

One derailed thread and a fresh new one, what joy.

Listening to DsO isn't really decisive re: being fash or racist (as for liking shitty dissonant stuff, whole other ball game). Still, some connections will make people wonder, and the more impatient ones will react.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 27698
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:11 pm 
 

There are so few musical genres where a legit problem is "am I bad for supporting these fascists?" and it's weird that people don't see how insane that is.
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Mellifleur
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Posts: 427
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:20 pm 
 

There's a handful of genres out there with large nests of racists. Metal isn't the only. Punk has a large infestation as well as a lot of electronic/industrial and post-punk styles; noise, power electronics, neofolk, martial industrial. There's also RAC and Vikinga Rock... They're out there, man.
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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:25 pm 
 

We know these threads are bound to keep happening over and over again, because of how far-right ideologies are so common within black metal. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to this so it doesn't crawl all over the forum.

Empyreal, you do know it's far more complex than what you're saying anyway. Your post borders on strawman fallacy. I gets increasingly complicated the further away from the flatout racist bands you go. So yes, of course when the bands were talking about are Absurd or Goatmoon, your point pretty much applies and it becomes pretty difficult and rather quickly to morally justify supporting these bands directly.

But on the other hand, what do you do about bands like Marduk, Mgla, Darkthrone or Mayhem? Should we not listen to these bands at all, even if we're not buying the records or merch?

But yeah, anyway. These debates should be kept in one thread... we're having pretty much the same discussion in the Peste Noire thread that got bumped a few days back and that's been on the 1st page of the forum ever since.

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SmallPoxie
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:56 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:49 pm 
 

Mellifleur wrote:
There's a handful of genres out there with large nests of racists. Metal isn't the only. Punk has a large infestation as well as a lot of electronic/industrial and post-punk styles; noise, power electronics, neofolk, martial industrial. There's also RAC and Vikinga Rock... They're out there, man.


I know that there are these types of ideologies in other music genres (Specially Punk), i just mentioned the cases i know the most

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jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 2021
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:47 pm 
 

This thread again! How long will it last this time?


Last edited by Ilwhyan on Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This kind of a post is completely unnecessary and unwanted non-contribution

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The Christian Bible
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:39 am
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:15 am 
 

This is such a dumb non-issue. If you want to listen to shitty Nazi metal then have at it, no one is actually going to do anything to stop you. "A person who I'll never meet called me a fascist online!!!!" Racists are such whiners.

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Kennermahn
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am
Posts: 81
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:22 am 
 

I like Oi!-influenced metal, I listen to quite a few of these RAC metal bands, but I'm by no means far-right. My girlfriend and the friends that I've told about this find it quite bizarre but are okay with it. It's not something I would speak openly about and I'd never wear t-shirts from these bands, firstly because I don't want to promote these ideologies.

I also listen to far-left bands such as Ratos de Porão, Soziedad Alkoholika and Speereth, but I'm not far-left either. I own a few Soziedad Alkoholika t-shirts which I wear every once in a while, though. One of my favorite bands is far-left punk band Kortatu and I like to tell to everyone who might care.


Last edited by Kennermahn on Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nuklearkrieg
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:05 pm
Posts: 77
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:29 am 
 

David Bowie, Led Zeppelin + countless more fucked kids.

I like watching Kyrie Irving play basketball but I don't consult his rambling interviews to determine whether or not the Earth is flat.

If a band is called Sturmpenis1488 or some shit, then don't buy their merch.

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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1481
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:18 am 
 

I'd like on big official thread for this kind of discussion but I believe mods here don't like the thought of merging threads (or perhaps the board software doesnt support it). Otherwise it would be nice to lift the relevant parts of other threads and just make a big new one.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 27698
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:51 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
We know these threads are bound to keep happening over and over again, because of how far-right ideologies are so common within black metal. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to this so it doesn't crawl all over the forum.

Empyreal, you do know it's far more complex than what you're saying anyway. Your post borders on strawman fallacy. I gets increasingly complicated the further away from the flatout racist bands you go. So yes, of course when the bands were talking about are Absurd or Goatmoon, your point pretty much applies and it becomes pretty difficult and rather quickly to morally justify supporting these bands directly.

But on the other hand, what do you do about bands like Marduk, Mgla, Darkthrone or Mayhem? Should we not listen to these bands at all, even if we're not buying the records or merch?


I didn't make any accusations at anyone. People can enjoy anything they like, nobody cares what anyone is listening to. I don't listen to any of those bands you mention really, so it wasn't a factor for me.

It is just crazy to me to step out of the metal bubble and think about how ludicrous it is that this is a debate at all. I listen to a lot of things and black metal is a rarity in how often this debate happens about racist bands. I like some bands in this genre but the constant stench of racist bullshit just makes me have a negative perception of the genre as a whole; taints it irrevocably. That also goes for any of the other mentioned niches where there have been pockets of racism - fuck all of it.

That is just me though. I don't think anyone is racist for supporting whatever odd cases/gray areas like those bands you mention. For me it just seems insane that this would come up so often in any form of art as a legit debate. It's not normal.

There is something to be said for separating the art from the artist about all this other stuff like thinking the Earth is flat - that's just one of countless things that will always come up. And yeah those old rock stars were weirdo creep assholes for fucking underage people. Still not the same magnitude as organized hate-based thought and Nazi shit.
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jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 2021
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:11 am 
 

Doesn't matter how left I am, the first Ted Nugent record has some great songs, man.

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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5722
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:43 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
It is just crazy to me to step out of the metal bubble and think about how ludicrous it is that this is a debate at all. I listen to a lot of things and black metal is a rarity in how often this debate happens about racist bands. I like some bands in this genre but the constant stench of racist bullshit just makes me have a negative perception of the genre as a whole; taints it irrevocably. That also goes for any of the other mentioned niches where there have been pockets of racism - fuck all of it.


If you hardly listen to any black metal and you're able to say "fuck all of it" to the entire genre, then yes, it must be very easy to blow off the whole issue. For those of us here who adore black metal, it's a little more morally complex. Unless I guess you're droneriot or someone who prides themselves on not having principles.

Imagine if there was a noticeable subsect of power metal made up of racist bands. Okay, so you don't listen to or support those bands. Easy. But then what if some of your favorite bands sometimes collaborated with prominent artists within that shady scene - they feature on their albums, they create side-projects, they tour together. Then what? Do you listen to those side projects because the music's apolitical, even though it's partially made by racists? Are you still able to support your favorite bands because now they've collaborated with white supremacists?

For me personally it's easy to write off fully-fledged NSBM bands - bands with directly racist lyrics/imagery. I've never fucked with that and I never will. We're in total agreement on that issue. But I can't imagine a universe in which I don't listen to bands like Mayhem, Dissection, or others whose members have done horrible things or who have featured members who've done horrible things. Is that wrong of me? I don't even know. But I do think there is a distinction between apolitical music made by extremists and hatefully political music made by extremists. It doesn't mean I don't feel totally comfortable listening to the former, but it's a lot easier to separate art from artist when the art in question doesn't carry a reprehensible message.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:46 pm 
 

I'd probably feel exactly the same about PM if the whole history of the genre had that kind of stuff in it. I don't proclaim to have any answers about who should listen to what because that's not for anybody to say. Everyone will have their own opinions on what to do about grey area situations like what you're talking about, but in the past few years I pretty much don't care about listening to any of that old Norwegian BM involved in all the controversy from back then; I can't respect those guys even a little anymore and thus don't really get any special inkling to listen to the music really, either. Dissection goes under that too.

I'm sure there are plenty of grey area situations where people could have plenty of respectable ways of dealing with that. I'm just amazed at how often this all comes up. And I hate all the bullshit some people say like "oh well are you going to vet every single band to make sure they're morally OK?" Well, there isn't much vetting needed for the stuff I'm talking about above.

Also the whole argument about "it's black metal, it's supposed to be evil music!" was always so stupid to me as well.
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Dustroy_Troly
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:29 pm
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:15 pm 
 

As long as the music itself isn't pushing its creators' shitty ideology on me then I couldn't care less. It doesn't matter to me that Varg is a nazi scumbag, that the Inquisition guy is into kiddie porn, or that Tom Araya is a Catholic. It's not a part of their music, and that's the only part of them that I'm interested in. For the most part, I'm not listening to metal music to feel any sort of a personal connection with the artist, so there's just no mechanism there for anything about their personality to become bothersome for me. A good riff doesn't become a bad one because a bad person wrote it. I just don't view personalities like that, the good part of someone doesn't become tainted because it's surrounded by bad parts. Human beings aren't monoliths, and I can just pick which parts I appreciate about them.

On the other hand, if the musical package itself is pushing an ideology I find offensive on me, then I find the picking and choosing much harder to do. If it's front and centre in the art itself then it does tend to soil the experience.

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jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 2021
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:30 pm 
 

Dustroy_Troly wrote:
As long as the music itself isn't pushing its creators' shitty ideology on me then I couldn't care less. It doesn't matter to me that Varg is a nazi scumbag, that the Inquisition guy is into kiddie porn, or that Tom Araya is a Catholic.


Kinda hard to relate being a (Peaceful) catholic to the other two, dude. I would never support someone like the dude from Inquisition, ever. I've never listened to Burzum in my life, either. Yeah, Catholics have a long history of a lot of horrible things, but Tom HIMSELF hasn't done any of that shit, the other two have.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:51 pm 
 

Dustroy_Troly wrote:
I'm not listening to metal music to feel any sort of a personal connection with the artist, so there's just no mechanism there for anything about their personality to become bothersome for me. A good riff doesn't become a bad one because a bad person wrote it. I just don't view personalities like that, the good part of someone doesn't become tainted because it's surrounded by bad parts.


That's typically not what people who oppose supporting these artists argue though. While there's always a small, but still rather very vocal minority that will claim you're a nazi for enjoying Filosofem, most care more about the fact that it promotes these people, their ideas and supports them both by helping the personnal ideas of the musicians, so on a more cultural level, and also on a financial level, if you are indeed giving any kind of money to these musicians. If it wasn't for his music, we wouldn't be talking about Varg Vikernes. The sole reason why we discuss that survivalist ethno-nationalist right wing dude and not another one, is his music.

Now while I agree that we should separate art from artist, especially in the case of musicians that do not really promote their political views in their music, I think it's safe to argue that most people, especially in discussions such as the one we're having here, do not think you're a bad person for simply enjoying Burzum's riffing. Same would go for Peste Noire, Clandestine Blaze or any other far more overtly extremist and racist bands than Burzum. That's not really the issue people have with the matter at hand.

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BinBagOffensive
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:21 pm
Posts: 45
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:59 pm 
 

I always find it funny when people bring up some obscure NSBM outfit for its lyrics or in many cases, band members political leanings. Not a word said about the endless "slay the Christians" or the mountain of music in black metal that directly calls for the extermination of Christians the world over. But some nobody that only hardened fans of black metal have even heard of, that's reason to argue forever.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 1627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:37 am 
 

BinBagOffensive wrote:
I always find it funny when people bring up some obscure NSBM outfit for its lyrics or in many cases, band members political leanings. Not a word said about the endless "slay the Christians" or the mountain of music in black metal that directly calls for the extermination of Christians the world over. But some nobody that only hardened fans of black metal have even heard of, that's reason to argue forever.


I assume that the amount of black metal shows getting cancelled either by antifa protests, or by elected representatives and venues because of pressures on social medias might have something to do with this. Or maybe metalheads getting called racists, getting beaten and thrown-out of bars by anarchist skinheads for wearing a Burzum shirt, or things like the OP described in his post might have something to do with this. Once you've seen a bunch of masked thugs randomly attack and harass people waiting in line at a venue because one of the bands of a festival as a racist musician in it's line-up, you start to think about this.

Metal also had it's fair share of conflicts with Christianism and conservative politicians in the 80's, as you may know. So it's not like we just started caring about political and social messages in metal.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:57 am 
 

As time has gone by, this issue has become less and less complex for me.

If you're comfortable separating the art from the artists, go ahead and do it. I won't stop you. But I personally find it very hard to do the same, depending on how severe a thing we're talking about. As in, I can live with Jon Schaffer blathering about politics he clearly barely understands himself and listen to Iced Earth, but I cannot enjoy Inquisition knowing that the main creative force behind it was caught with child porn on his PC. I have my own personal criteria for why this makes sense to me, and owe no explanations to anyone regarding this. The same goes for you, anonymous reader of this post. But you should know that, if you're perfectly okay with certain... unsavoury aspects of an artist, some people will wonder why you are not bothered by those things; things that viscerally repulse them. Because believe it or not, different people have different moral gradients and convictions.

Also, if you're the kind of person who can proudly blast Aryan Jew Rapist 1488 at full volume and attends concerts where people go around sieg heiling like there's no tomorrow, you should at least commit to it and handle the criticism like a grown up.
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The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:49 am 
 

BinBagOffensive wrote:
I always find it funny when people bring up some obscure NSBM outfit for its lyrics or in many cases, band members political leanings. Not a word said about the endless "slay the Christians" or the mountain of music in black metal that directly calls for the extermination of Christians the world over. But some nobody that only hardened fans of black metal have even heard of, that's reason to argue forever.

It's probably because a lot of people relate to "kill Christians" as an over-the-top manifestation of anti-Christian sentiment and not unambiguous political and pro-terrorist agitation.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 2893
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:07 am 
 

BinBagOffensive wrote:
I always find it funny when people bring up some obscure NSBM outfit for its lyrics or in many cases, band members political leanings. Not a word said about the endless "slay the Christians" or the mountain of music in black metal that directly calls for the extermination of Christians the world over. But some nobody that only hardened fans of black metal have even heard of, that's reason to argue forever.


/thread

Also, for some perspective, if a new band dismissed people they hated as "fairies", would they be considered worthless homophobic bigots that needs to be questioned about this in every interview they ever do? Also, the correct thing would be to drive these Nazis away from festivals and labels, amirite? I'm thinking of "Fairies Wear Boots" here, by the notorious bigots of Black Sabbath. What kind of bigots label someone as homosexuals as a put-down?

Asking for a friend. Please notify the Metal-Sucks news desk.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:09 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Metal also had it's fair share of conflicts with Christianism and conservative politicians in the 80's


Who can forget the beatings the metal scene endured from the staunchly conservative Tipper Gore? She was the #1 most prominent critic of metal at the time. Were you alive and buying metal at this time or is this something you gleaned from Wikipedia?
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:58 pm 
 

To be fair, the ratio of Christians actually murdered/raped/persecuted by Satanic metalheads is infinitesimally small compared to, say, the ratio of non-Christians murdered/raped/persecuted by Christians, so I would not use the former as a point of contention when my own side already has a lot more to answer for. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own and all that.

And as for Fairies Wear Boots, it was a dumb, juvenile thing the band did, in response to boot-wearing skinheads they had some trouble with back in the day (this is well documented and can be Googled). Is it silly to go "hurr, durr, you're gay" at someone who jumped you and beat you up? Well, yes. But Temple of Blood's rather shaky "gotcha" is a bit like calling Darkthrone white supremacists for letting Varg write some dumb pro Aryan shit in one of their booklets back when they were teenagers. Considering the band has never again done something even remotely similar (and in the case of Fenriz and Nocturno Culto, even apologised), I'd say Sabbath's issue can be similarly dismissed.
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The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Inkshooter
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 pm
Posts: 471
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:12 pm 
 

Nipping this stupid-ass argument in the bud right now:

Number of human beings murdered by Satanists: not a lot
Number of human beings murdered by Nazis: literally tens of millions

They're not remotely the same thing. One is a real, present, destructive force in the global political landscape, the other is fantasy. Of all the "evil" stuff that metal depicts, Nazism is the only one with real-life consequences.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:19 pm 
 

Man, I should've just written that.
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droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:22 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
Nipping this stupid-ass argument in the bud right now:

Number of human beings murdered by Satanists: not a lot
Number of human beings murdered by Nazis: literally tens of millions

They're not remotely the same thing. One is a real, present, destructive force in the global political landscape, the other is fantasy. Of all the "evil" stuff that metal depicts, Nazism is the only one with real-life consequences.


You left out atheists. How convenient!

The regimes with the largest death toll in the history of the world ... now those are some real-life consequences.

Still fretting about Nazis in 2020 is fantasy.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8068
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:26 pm 
 

Did Mao and Stalin kill millions in the name of atheism, though?

You know, the way Christians have killed countless people in the name of Christianity.

Atheism, in itself, is just a lack of belief in divinities. It cannot, in any way, shape or form, be used to justify massacres. And indeed, atheistic regimes such as those of Mao and Stalin didn't kill millions because they were atheistic. They killed millions because they were fascists.

Like Nazis.
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droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Inkshooter
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 pm
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Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:30 pm 
 

What's this about atheists? As far as I know, there are no metal bands that advocate for killing atheists.

And the fact that you've completely missed the massive far-right revival the past couple years suggests to me that your head is completely in the sand. Did you miss the assembly of hundreds in Charlottesville a few years back chanting "blood and soil", an anglicization of the Nazi slogan "Blut und Boden"? Did you miss the fact that Viktor Orban, prime minister of Hungary, might as well be Miklós Horthy reborn?
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:33 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
To be fair, the ratio of Christians actually murdered/raped/persecuted by Satanic metalheads is infinitesimally small compared to, say, the ratio of non-Christians murdered/raped/persecuted by Christians, so I would not use the former as a point of contention when my own side already has a lot more to answer for.


I'm not a historian, but could it be because Christianity began 2000 years ago and existed before they even had their own copies of the Bible to follow, and metal has existed for about 50 years? Might that be one of the factors for such a disparity?

Also, I'm trying to remember the last time a Christian burned down a Satanic place of worship and got praised in Christian circles the way all the talentless black metal poseurs did.

Quote:
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own and all that.


You're not even in the right galaxy of applying that verse correctly, but why am I not surprised?

Quote:
And as for Fairies Wear Boots, it was a dumb, juvenile thing the band did, in response to boot-wearing skinheads they had some trouble with back in the day (this is well documented and can be Googled). Is it silly to go "hurr, durr, you're gay" at someone who jumped you and beat you up? Well, yes.


Not merely "silly", as you dismiss it. But "homophobic" and "bigoted", according to every single way it is applied in 2020.

Quote:
But Temple of Blood's rather shaky "gotcha". I'd say Sabbath's issue can be similarly dismissed.


There's not a thing shaky about it. But of course people would dismiss it because it is against someone they love (a sacred cow) so they will happily look the other way without needing an apology. Against someone you hate, well even an apology won't do. That's why I don't take any of this moral posturing seriously. It is so disproportionately applied as to become a complete joke.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:41 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Did Mao and Stalin kill millions in the name of atheism, though?

You know, the way Christians have killed countless people in the name of Christianity.


Before or after Christians could actually read a copy of the Bible themselves in a language of their own, and not be TOLD what it says by those in prestigous positions of power? Crucial distinction.

Quote:
Atheism, in itself, is just a lack of belief in divinities. It cannot, in any way, shape or form, be used to justify massacres. And indeed, atheistic regimes such as those of Mao and Stalin didn't kill millions because they were atheistic. They killed millions because they were fascists.

Like Nazis.


They were fascists because they were atheists.

You'd have to be blind not to see how atheists make government their god and believe all good comes through government force. They believe it doesn't come through God working through our lives and hearts, and all good and revenge must be exacted HERE through THEM. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how that creates oppression.

Atheism allows you to be untethered from morality and judgement. At least in this world.

If you're killing to further the agenda of a political party, which forces you by law to be atheist, then yeah ... you're killing in the name of atheism.

It's impossible to be a mass-murderer in the name of Christianity because there is not one whit that Jesus ever said that could justify it. If you're not living the way He did then you're not doing it right.

You can call yourself something and do all kinds of things. If I said I am not paying my taxes in the name of Xlxlxxxlxlxxlxx, does that make you guilty of advocating for tax evasion? Wouldn't you actually need to advocate for those things before I could blame you?
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:46 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
What's this about atheists? As far as I know, there are no metal bands that advocate for killing atheists.

And the fact that you've completely missed the massive far-right revival the past couple years suggests to me that your head is completely in the sand. Did you miss the assembly of hundreds in Charlottesville a few years back chanting "blood and soil", an anglicization of the Nazi slogan "Blut und Boden"? Did you miss the fact that Viktor Orban, prime minister of Hungary, might as well be Miklós Horthy reborn?


So, your point is that we should all be scared of Nazis? You are giving them far too much credit.

Sorry, I don't follow Hungary but in my country of 330 million people I am happy to report that there is no reason to fear them.

People get murdered in this country for all sorts of reasons. It's not necessarily a national crisis every time it happens unless you have your own agenda. I saw on the news today that people were murdered not far from where I live. Why don't you care about their murders? Is it because it doesn't fit your agenda of "OH NO NAZIS R COMING!!!!!" It's a terrible thing when anyone is murdered for any reason, not only when it reinforces your worldview.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:48 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
I'm not a historian, but could it be because Christianity began 2000 years ago and existed before they even had their own copies of the Bible to follow, and metal has existed for about 50 years? Might that be one of the factors for such a disparity?

Also, I'm trying to remember the last time a Christian burned down a Satanic place of worship and got praised in Christian circles the way all the talentless black metal poseurs did.

So, because Christianity is older than metal, it gets a free pass on all that murder/rape/persecution? I had not considered that, but somehow, I am having trouble making sense out of it, I'm afraid. You'll need to be a bit more thorough with your explanations.
Quote:
You're not even in the right galaxy of applying that verse correctly, but why am I not surprised?

It's a clear cut condemnation of hypocrisy. Which I'd say a man highlighting the crimes and sins commited by others while downplaying the much more plentiful ones of his own religion's history and institution might be guilty of.
Quote:
Not merely "silly", as you dismiss it. But "homophobic" and "bigoted", according to every single way it is applied in 2020.

Well, yes, it is homophobic and bigoted. Homophobia and bigotry are very silly things, which is why I don't partake in them. You, however, seem to have more of a problem with people pointing out such things rather than the fact that they still exist in 2020, as you have demonstrated time and time again here on this very forum.
Quote:
There's not a thing shaky about it. But of course people would dismiss it because it is against someone they love (a sacred cow) so they will happily look the other way without needing an apology. Against someone you hate, well even an apology won't do. That's why I don't take any of this moral posturing seriously. It is so disproportionately applied as to become a complete joke.

Yes, it is a shaky gotcha. You're comparing a band making a stupid homophobic song title fifty years ago with people who genuinely clamor for the deaths of non-white people. There isn't even the slightest inkling of an equivalency between the two.

Also, I would advise against telling me what I would or wouldn't do in any given situation. You don't know me or how I think.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:54 pm 
 

Hey look, I just found something that happened in the real world: https://loudwire.com/black-metal-musici ... -burnings/

Bbbut, I thought it was just a fantasy?

I'm sure the black metal scene would be REALLY sad if one of those worthless Christians had died in those fires.

Totally goes against their moral code and all.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:59 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Xlxlx wrote:
Did Mao and Stalin kill millions in the name of atheism, though?

You know, the way Christians have killed countless people in the name of Christianity.


Before or after Christians could actually read a copy of the Bible themselves in a language of their own, and not be TOLD what it says by those in prestigous positions of power? Crucial distinction.

I still fail to understand how this makes murder/rape/persecution okay or justifiable in anyway, just like ignorance of the law does not justify breaking the law.
Quote:
Quote:
Atheism, in itself, is just a lack of belief in divinities. It cannot, in any way, shape or form, be used to justify massacres. And indeed, atheistic regimes such as those of Mao and Stalin didn't kill millions because they were atheistic. They killed millions because they were fascists.

Like Nazis.


They were fascists because they were atheists.

You'd have to be blind not to see how atheists make government their god and believe all good comes through government force. They believe it doesn't come through God working through our lives and hearts, and all good and revenge must be exacted HERE through THEM. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how that creates oppression.

Atheism allows you to be untethered from morality and judgement. At least in this world.

If you're killing to further the agenda of a political party, which forces you by law to be atheist, then yeah ... you're killing in the name of atheism.

It's impossible to be a mass-murderer in the name of Christianity because there is not one whit that Jesus ever said that could justify it. If you're not living the way He did then you're not doing it right.

You can call yourself something and do all kinds of things. If I said I am not paying my taxes in the name of Xlxlxxxlxlxxlxx, does that make you guilty of advocating for tax evasion? Wouldn't you actually need to advocate for those things before I could blame you?

Ah, I see, you're operating from the notion that it is impossible to be an ethical person if you don't believe in God. Which is factually, demonstrably wrong (and I'm not even an atheist anymore as I write this).

You should've told me that from the start, and I wouldn't have wasted my time having this conversation. What are you even doing then, in this den of atheists and non-believers? Surely, a good deal of MA's userbase must be nothing but utterly morally repugnant to you. It's amazing that you find it the least bit tolerable to be here, surrounded by people who are untethered from morality and judgement. You should go hang out at church instead. I'm sure the crowd there will be much more palatable to your sensibilities.
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The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:02 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Before or after Christian could actually read a copy of the Bible themselves in a language of their own, and not be TOLD what it says by those in prestigous positions of power? Crucial distinction.


Temple Of Blood wrote:
They were fascists because they were atheists.


Temple Of Blood wrote:
Atheism allows you to be untethered from morality and judgement. At least in this world.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
You sure care about making very specific distinctions for very specific reasons (other matters seem not to require any sort of distinction at all). How cute, and so utterly unexpected.

Anyway, back on topic.

I won't listen to nazi stuff. That's not a matter of principle though, but rather my reaction to such music which can be best summed up as unequivocal revulsion. It's a matter of a simple lack of capacity to enjoy the purely sonic qualities due to them being inextricably connected with the promotion of said ideology, and it's really about another topic that crops up, the attitude towards lyrics (primarily) and imagery in metal and the issue of if and how people can simply disregard them. In this case, this is something I really can't do.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with folks who can do that and listen to such music.
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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:12 pm 
 

One thing that fascinates me when these Nazi black metal threads come up (and they always do), is that so many of you seem so surprised and clutch your pearls that a group that has trafficked in "Kill the Christians" rhetoric with impunity for years might turn out to be stupid and racist too.

Who did you think you were dealing with here?

It's almost like there is a connection there ... somewhere.
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LycanthropeMoon
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 609
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:48 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
They were fascists because they were atheists.

Hoo boy.
It's very easy to twist this around and say that the American alt-right, which seems to be very much into "traditional Catholicism", are fascists because they're Christians. You know, the same people who say LGTBQ people and interracial relationships are degenerate, the same people that deny the Holocaust, the same people who promote "race realism", the same people that think their religion should be the law of the land and forced on everyone. There are shitty atheists and shitty Christians, there are good atheists and good Christians. You complain about pearl clutching but you're doing pretty much the same thing in regards to atheists.

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Temple Of Blood
Old Man Yells at Cloud

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:49 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I'd probably feel exactly the same about PM if the whole history of the genre had that kind of stuff in it.


You'll never need to worry about that because it actually takes half a brain, an ear, and a smidge of talent to play even the worst power metal.

There is a strong correlation with tone deaf idiots and racism.
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Last edited by Temple Of Blood on Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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