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TheLoneForest
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:38 am 
 

One great thing about modern black metal is the existence of bands that are really pushing boundries, such as Liturgy, and it saddens me that other genres like Thrash and Death don't really get that same approach.

Liturgy is literally the absolute reverse of black metal with it's super philosophical lens, chord progressions that act as mirrors to most other black metal riffs etc. It takes the black metal formula and throws it on a negative filter. Even with HHH coming out as trans, it seems to be even more of a perfect mirror to black metal's massive homophobia problem

I wish Thrash and to some extent Death Metal, or really any other metal subgenre would do the same. Typical tropes of the genre flipped on its head and inverted. Tbh, I'm not too familiar with either genre, as they tend to stick to tradition much more than black metal does, with an even more rabid "trve" fanbase, but are there really any ultra innovative, "anti-thrash" or "anti-power" metal bands? If not, why is black metal the only real innovation within metal?

This thread should NOT exist to bash HHH or Liturgy, as so many neckbeards love to do. Please don't derail it into yet another "Liturgy is pretentious and everyone pretends to like them": thread.

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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:53 am 
 

Voivod and Gorguts? Voivod was a thrash band playing thrash that basically defied and inverted every single thrash convention with that weird-ass mix of punk-thrash, prog, space rock, post-punk, and avant-garde classical, while Gorguts basically ripped apart death metal on Obscura completely by thinking like a modern classical ensemble taking a crack at death metal.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:01 pm 
 

I very much doubt thrash would ever get such an equivalent, mostly because it's pretty strictly defined and it's hard to push its boundaries without it actually turning into a different thing. I guess something like that manifests in bands such as Anacrusis, for instance, but it's debatable just how purely "thrash" an album like Screams and Whispers is. Frank mentions Voivod, which seems obvious enough, but again, I can't really help the feeling that Nothingface, brilliant as it is, doesn't really count as thrash. That might be a me issue, though.

As for death metal, well, don't bands such as Tribulation and latter Morbus Chron fit the bill? Stuff like Sweven is pretty out there as far as death metal goes.
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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:03 pm 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
Voivod and Gorguts? Voivod was a thrash band playing thrash that basically defied and inverted every single thrash convention with that weird-ass mix of punk-thrash, prog, space rock, post-punk, and avant-garde classical, while Gorguts basically ripped apart death metal on Obscura completely by thinking like a modern classical ensemble taking a crack at death metal.


Yeah, i would pick those too. Molested is also another interesting case, as they are one of the earliest bands i can think of to venture in the chaotic, almost Portal-like style

Tribulation did something really unique on the formulas of death, but the albums after that can't really be considered Death metal. I agree that that album could fit

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:19 pm 
 

I think it depends on where you set the bar for being close to what Liturgy do. I mean, there's Pyrrhon. They mix death metal with noise rock, industrial, math rock, sludge... you name it. And they have very political lyrics. You could argue they have some affinity to the mix of styles Liturgy are incorporating into their sound and they are definitely innovative. Are they "anti-Death metal" as you say? I don't know, probably not. I don't even think Liturgy are that innovative. I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary actually.

My point is most of the noise Liturgy did was because black metal fans tend to be insufferable. It was trendy to hate Wolves in the Throne Room and then Deafheaven, Liturgy, etc. Every band that didn't adhere to the macho satanic misanthropist edge-lord imagery got a lot of shit from trve fans (and still do). I don't think death metal is as bad as black metal in that regard so even if there was a "Liturgy of death metal" they would probably end up just being an experimental band doing their own thing and there wouldn't be as much talk about it.

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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:51 pm 
 

To be fair, Hunter did herself zero favors with that ridiculous manifesto or those equally pretentious or ridiculous interviews where she demonstrated both a shocking lack of actual knowledge about the genre and a massive sense of unwarranted self-importance. The CHUDs can cry into their Mountain Dew bottles between posts on DMU all day for all I care, but the flak she got from people criticizing her attitude and ego was warranted. It became WAY easier to respect her for the whole "outsider taking on a genre and ripping it apart and putting it back together again with her own vision" angle when she gave up pretending to be a black metal musician or even a metal musician in general.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:54 pm 
 

Yeah, that manifesto was pretty dumb but so are countless interviews to black metal musicians that actually believe in magic and nobody bats an aye. Black metal is pretty ridiculous in general.

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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:59 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, that manifesto was pretty dumb but so are countless interviews to black metal musicians that actually believe in magic and nobody bats an aye. Black metal is pretty ridiculous in general.

Oh, I agree, black metal is full of ostensible grown adults playing make-believe, but I'll criticize pretentious pseudo-intellectual trust fund kid nonsense from people who were probably "that one classmate" in Intro to Philosophy who made the whole class want to beat them with broken pool cues every time they opened their mouths just as readily as I will criticize DMU CHUDs and incel edgelords.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:31 pm 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
Voivod and Gorguts?


Might as well mention Ulcerate too, since they're doing what both of these bands pretty much did. I wouldn't call them the reverse of death metal like OP did for Liturgy, but they definitely break the typical conventions the genre holds.

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:02 pm 
 

Now that i think about it Cynic's Focus was a total curveball when it came out, i think it i could rival Obscura in "what have you done to my death metal?!?" terms :lol:

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praey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:12 pm 
 

I'd throw Fallujah's The Flesh Prevails out there when it comes to death metal. The atmospheric and almost shoegazey elements of that album made it sound like death metal's version of Sunbather, which came out the year before. Definitely different than almost any other death metal band before or since. Unfortunately, the band rapidly descended into mediocrity and The Flesh Prevails overall didn't seem to have much influence on the scene, so it remains an interesting blip in history rather than something that ever really turned the tides.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:04 pm 
 

I'd argue that bands like Coroner, Mekong Delta and Voivod basically did this back in the 80's. Thrash was a very street no nonsense genre and these guys change that entire set up with all sorts of other influences. Although I have to say that Voivod only released 1 thrash album namely Killing Technology, it is still rather radical.

Death metal got weird pretty early on and lost some of its weirdness as the 90's progressed as it turned into more of a genre focused on technicality and brutality but before that you had bands like Carbonized, Demilich, early Septic Flesh, Phlebotomized, the forementioned Molested and quite a few more bands that never got any real attention. A few of these bands got canonised and we've kind of forgotten how groundbreaking and anti death metal some of these bands/albums were.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:17 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
I'd argue that bands like Coroner, Mekong Delta and Voivod basically did this back in the 80's. Thrash was a very street no nonsense genre and these guys change that entire set up with all sorts of other influences. Although I have to say that Voivod only released 1 thrash album namely Killing Technology, it is still rather radical.

Death metal got weird pretty early on and lost some of its weirdness as the 90's progressed as it turned into more of a genre focused on technicality and brutality but before that you had bands like Carbonized, Demilich, early Septic Flesh, Phlebotomized, the forementioned Molested and quite a few more bands that never got any real attention. A few of these bands got canonised and we've kind of forgotten how groundbreaking and anti death metal some of these bands/albums were.

Yeah, Supuration released the Cube in 1993 and that album is still pretty wild and weird even by today standards.


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narsilianshard
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Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:24 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
As for death metal, well, don't bands such as Tribulation and latter Morbus Chron fit the bill? Stuff like Sweven is pretty out there as far as death metal goes.

This is exactly what I thought of when I saw the title of the thread. And Chapel of Disease going full "dad rock meets death metal" fits the bill as well. Sure, none of this is as arty or pretentious as Liturgy, but these bands are taking death metal to uncharted territory nonetheless.

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Demon Fang
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:42 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:15 pm 
 

Give Blood Incantation time...

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Gravetemplar
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:05 am 
 

Demon Fang wrote:
Give Blood Incantation time...

I honestly doubt it. Every project they've been involved shows those guys are really into osdm and nothing more.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:38 am 
 

I suppose Portal is to death metal what Liturgy is to black metal.

Thrash metal is probably too inherently archaic to have something like that. If you started from a thrash framework and pushed it completely beyond its boundaries, would it simply not be thrash anymore?
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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:49 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Demon Fang wrote:
Give Blood Incantation time...

I honestly doubt it. Every project they've been involved shows those guys are really into osdm and nothing more.

Last album had a lot of overt 70s prog elements, and I think it's pretty clear that they're gonna move further in that direction. Either way, Blood Incantation ain't it, chief. They're excellent and they deserve their newfound fame and the likelihood that they'll get huge, but they're not really challenging anything or breaking all the rules.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:24 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Demon Fang wrote:
Give Blood Incantation time...

I honestly doubt it. Every project they've been involved shows those guys are really into osdm and nothing more.

Last album had a lot of overt 70s prog elements, and I think it's pretty clear that they're gonna move further in that direction. Either way, Blood Incantation ain't it, chief. They're excellent and they deserve their newfound fame and the likelihood that they'll get huge, but they're not really challenging anything or breaking all the rules.

Nah, they aren't that influenced by 70s prog in my opinion. Stargazer are way more influenced by that stuff and they still sound like death metal. Blood Incantation are more into tech death and bands like Death, Timeghoul or even Nile than 70s retro stuff.

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Dungeon_Vic
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:03 am 
 

I think thrash was the crossroads of all subgenres and the one that fostered the most change. There is no need for a Liturgy, it's already happened before, multiple times. Not just with the tech-thrash bands that have been mentioned (please include Watchtower in this, have you seen footage of their supporting Coroner in '89?) but a ton of other bands taking thrash and metal to different directions. And sure, usually followed by cries of "bastards! false! sellouts!" or whatever but who gives a shit about them anyway?

I'm thinking of bands like Blind Illusion. Suicidal Tendencies. Sacred Reich. Mordred. Anthrax for god's sake! And then you have Celtic Frost and Into the Pandemonium (which I hate personally but...). Mr Bungle and Faith No More (and all the alt scene)

Cynic or Atheist? Game changers, completely ahead of their time and completely different aestetically and lyrically to the usual Chopped in Half/Hammer Smashed Face/Sacrificial Suicide/Blessed are the Sick type of lyrics. Chuck's "I am not anti-life", Blondie shirt or shirt with kittens and the removal of the upside down cross from the logo were also very conscious choices to be something different than evil, satanic death metal (and the underground hated and ridiculed him for it - this is circa 91-92) and of course Cynic members in the band...

Carcass and Entombed going in vastly different directions from orthodox death metal... Dream Theater going against both the grunge and death metal opposites. And so on and so forth. I guess someone might even bring up the "nu metal" (with or without quotes) bands, like Slipknot or SOAD. Or Mastodon.

But more to the point: I don't need a thrash or death liturgy. I need good thrash or death metal bands. That means character and good songs. I'm happy then. Go Nekromantheon!
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:11 pm 
 

Portal was the first band that came to mind. They’re as if a group of extraterrestrial brings came to Earth and were told to write death metal. Completely alien and unlike anything else in the genre, especially for the time period they first became known during.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:34 pm 
 

This may sound harsh but I honestly think Portal are a bit of a snoozfest and vastly overrated, their songwriting isn't nearly as focused as Liturgy. I think Gorguts are a lot more influential in that regard. All the abyssal Incantation-core bands that were slightly influenced by Portal are way better in my opinion. Most of their appeal come from their live costumes and weird band photos. I'd say they are a gimmick band and pretty much the opposite to Liturgy who have no esthetics or theatrics associated to their music.

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Vigintiseptem
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:56 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
This may sound harsh but I honestly think Portal are a bit of a snoozfest and vastly overrated, their songwriting isn't nearly as focused as Liturgy.

Portal are going for a totally different thing. This isn't even apples and oranges, it's more like apples and mushrooms. (Finding Portal boring is fine, of course.)

Gravetemplar wrote:
Liturgy [...] have no esthetics or theatrics associated to their music.

They definitely have an aesthetic, most evident in their album covers. Call it anti-aesthetic if you will, but it's still an aesthetic. That manifesto of hers could also be labeled theatrics. (Nothing wrong with aesthetics and theatrics, though.)

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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:16 am 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
(please include Watchtower in this, have you seen footage of their supporting Coroner in '89?


Anyone know where to find this footage?
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Frank Booth
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:46 am 
 

I also wouldn't call Portal genre-breaking or deconstructive. They didn't upend death metal or black metal, they just took Incantation and Infester's general approach, mixed in tech/avant-black riffing played in a bestial black style, and then filtered it through a whole lot of dissonance. They were unique, yes, but more because they took influence from a lot of different existing styles of death and black metal and blended them in a new and creative way.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:03 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
I also wouldn't call Portal genre-breaking or deconstructive. They didn't upend death metal or black metal, they just took Incantation and Infester's general approach, mixed in tech/avant-black riffing played in a bestial black style, and then filtered it through a whole lot of dissonance. They were unique, yes, but more because they took influence from a lot of different existing styles of death and black metal and blended them in a new and creative way.

It's really hard to be deconstructive in a style that deliberately reaches for the absolute extremes of everything that defines it. I guess it all starts and ends with the riff, and the key is to finding a way to completely re-define that component. I don't know if Portal is really managing to do that. In any case, Gorguts did much more much earlier.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:28 am 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
Dungeon_Vic wrote:
(please include Watchtower in this, have you seen footage of their supporting Coroner in '89?


Anyone know where to find this footage?


My bad, I thought it was '89, cause it was in support of the No More Color album, turns out it's 1990. A friend of mine has this in VHS since forever. Just looked it up and sure enough, here it is:



I always liked Watchtower and of course I was floored by their technical stuff and the uniqueness of the songwriting. But I didn't really get Watchtower until I saw that live. Crazy.
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Apteronotus
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:31 am 
 

For me Portal definitely crosses that line. What's great about music versus things like, I don't know - the land speed record, is you can often pull threads of influences and comparisons that make it hard to ever point to a single band as the 100% start of something. There is so much great stuff out there that doesn't quite fit neatly into any genre.

Also excited for that Watchtower link, thanks Dungeon_Vic!
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:36 pm 
 

That Watchtower video is glorious. Black leather jackets, black leather boots, and white polka-dotted boxers. Existentially rebellious innovation to undermine the unspoken trope of thrash metal bands wearing pants.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:24 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
This thread should NOT exist to bash HHH or Liturgy, as so many neckbeards love to do. Please don't derail it into yet another "Liturgy is pretentious and everyone pretends to like them": thread.


By placing them on a pedestal and by taking such a controversial (and erronous) stance, you're basically just asking for people to do this. Maybe frame your threads in a better way if you want to avoid people reacting negatively to them.

Gravetemplar wrote:
I think it depends on where you set the bar for being close to what Liturgy do. I mean, there's Pyrrhon. They mix death metal with noise rock, industrial, math rock, sludge... you name it. And they have very political lyrics. You could argue they have some affinity to the mix of styles Liturgy are incorporating into their sound and they are definitely innovative. Are they "anti-Death metal" as you say? I don't know, probably not. I don't even think Liturgy are that innovative. I'm not saying they're bad, quite the contrary actually.

My point is most of the noise Liturgy did was because black metal fans tend to be insufferable. It was trendy to hate Wolves in the Throne Room and then Deafheaven, Liturgy, etc. Every band that didn't adhere to the macho satanic misanthropist edge-lord imagery got a lot of shit from trve fans (and still do). I don't think death metal is as bad as black metal in that regard so even if there was a "Liturgy of death metal" they would probably end up just being an experimental band doing their own thing and there wouldn't be as much talk about it.


This. All of this.

Plus, these types of bands actually do exist in both death and thrash metal. Like others mentionned, this is what Voivod did (and still does), just like Vektor are doing. And in death metal you still have bands like Gorguts, Nocturnus A.D., Beyond Creation and more who do explore and push boundaries for the genre. But like Gravetemplar said, these bands don't stand out quite as much because the death metal community and the thrash metal community aren't as conservative, edgy, pretentious and toxic as such a big chunk of the black metal community is.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:10 pm 
 

What an absolutely, mesmerizingly incredible argument. Kudos, people.
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