Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 646
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:21 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
Other great thing about The Symbol Remains (which is actually a lyric from The Shadow of California from the sadly overlooked The Revölution by Night) is Richie Castellano's lead vocals on three songs. Tainted Blood is really good in particular.


Mmmmm I'm not sure I agree on that - I mean Richie's not a bad singer at all, but to me hearing his voice kinda makes them sound like a more typical hard rock band. His guitar playing is really good, and from looking at the writing credits he clearly contributed some solid ideas to the band (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Symbol_Remains).

Vocally though, I think he should take a back seat and do backing vocals at best, as his lead vocals seem completely out of place. Like the band as a whole, Eric Bloom and Buck Dharma have some very particular voices that to me are irreplaceable for the band - especially Eric Bloom's vibrato. I feel like it would've prevented Tainted Blood from sounding like 3 Doors Down.

===

EDIT - for the discussion above, Blue Oyster Cult shouldn't be on the archives. I thought if the rest of the album was like The Alchemist then they'd earn a spot, but there's not enough of that material present. The ratio matters because if it didn't, then the archives would get oversaturated with tons of bands who got accepted because of that 1 or 2 metal songs they wrote that one time. So you have to draw the line somewhere, which is fine, really.

They're definitely a great band, and have for sure influenced the genre greatly, but while they DO have some undoubtedly heavy metal songs and can do the genre extraordinarily well, they themselves haven't committed themselves enough on a full album to being a heavy metal band. They're a progressive/psychedelic rock band that dabbles with heavy metal every now and then. There's a difference between the two.

Top
 Profile  
idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 444
Location: England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:48 pm 
 

yeah it's fine they're not.

but also i would say varied lead vocal duties are in BÖC tradition: Lanier and both the Bouchards did leads on Agents of Fortune. And a lot of this albums strengths are building and expanding on the band's legacy, rather than doing a cookie-cutter best-of like Judas Priest fell into after the reunion.

Also his "The Machine" has been a bit of earworm for me. it should be cheesy as hell as an "old men doing an AOR-sounding song about new technology". but it kinda rings too true!

Top
 Profile  
MARSDUDE
Shitposter

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
Posts: 2181
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:48 am 
 

I'd have to agree on Richie's vocals sounding a bit out of place. I dunno if it's the mix having his vocals a bit higher, or if it's how young he sounds compared to Buck and Eric, but his voice doesn't quite fit for me.

Top
 Profile  
FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 646
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:17 pm 
 

MARSDUDE wrote:
I'd have to agree on Richie's vocals sounding a bit out of place. I dunno if it's the mix having his vocals a bit higher, or if it's how young he sounds compared to Buck and Eric, but his voice doesn't quite fit for me.


I think his age may be a part of it too, for me. It's pretty wild how he's been in the band for 16/17 years already and this is his recording debut - according to wikipedia, he's 40 so he must have been 23/24 when he first started playing with them. Considering how young he was when he joined and how long he's been with them (I mean shit, his entire 30s and then some), I doubt he sees this band as a "stepping stone," though on a surface level it can look like that. I wouldn't be surprised if when BOC inevitably retires, that Richie goes on to do another project where he fits in much more comfortably.

Top
 Profile  
Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5197
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:59 pm 
 

As much as I love Buck Dharma and Eric Bloom, I think Richie is the album's real MVP. I imagine he has a pretty solid understanding of how the band works at this point as a lot of the songs he wrote and co-wrote really capture that classic spirit. They haven't sounded this much like themselves since Imaginos or even Fire of Unknown Origin. I don't particularly mind his vocals either; with how many people have sung in Blue Oyster Cult over the years, I honestly find it tricky to pick their voices apart at times.
_________________
Spirit Division (Stoner/Doom): http://spiritdivision.bandcamp.com
My solo acoustic project (Dark Folk/Blues): http://christophersteve.bandcamp.com/
Lavaborne (Heavy/Power/Doom): https://lavaborne.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:20 pm 
 

I seem to be with the team that says Richie stands out like sore thumb; and I identify BOC with Bloom's vocals.

Top
 Profile  
Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:26 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:

EDIT - for the discussion above, Blue Oyster Cult shouldn't be on the archives. I thought if the rest of the album was like The Alchemist then they'd earn a spot, but there's not enough of that material present. The ratio matters because if it didn't, then the archives would get oversaturated with tons of bands who got accepted because of that 1 or 2 metal songs they wrote that one time. So you have to draw the line somewhere, which is fine, really.

They're definitely a great band, and have for sure influenced the genre greatly, but while they DO have some undoubtedly heavy metal songs and can do the genre extraordinarily well, they themselves haven't committed themselves enough on a full album to being a heavy metal band. They're a progressive/psychedelic rock band that dabbles with heavy metal every now and then. There's a difference between the two.


Personally, I think that BOC should be on the Archives, as Rush are included on there for historical/influence reasons but IMO are very much coming from the same place as BOC - not a full on metal band but a hard rock/prog group with a more commercial side who have nevertheless been influential to many bands in the metal world.

I'm willing to acknowledge that bands like Rush, Deep Purple etc are included on the Archives for special reasons to do with their influence on the genre and not necessarily for their actual sound; my main point is that BOC should be added to this particular group.

I know that there is an argument for not adding bands that wrote one or two metal songs in their career to the Archives otherwise we'd be flooded with tons of obscure 60s and 70s hard rock acts, so a filter has to be applied, but BOC are different in that (like Deep Purple, Rush, and Thin Lizzy) there is a direct line from them to a lot of bands on the Archives in terms of influence, ambience/atmosphere, and style. Ghost are an obvious example of their influence, I'd also argue Saint Vitus are another. BOC's best work has a certain darkness/eerieness/mystery to it that has I think pretty widely permeated through the metal scene over the decades.


Last edited by Cosmic_Equilibrium on Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:44 am 
 

An obvious argument, thank you. I personally never understood why are Rush unanimously embraced by metal fans, but not VDGG who are so "metal" that I can barely listen to them sometimes. Anyway, I agree with your broader argument that if Purple, Rush etc. are metal "for historical reasons", it's illogical others shouldn't be. Furthermore, BOC were closely associated with Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially.
Even Tom Warrior doesn't think they "invented metal":
"An album that shaped my understanding of heavy metal is Stained Class by Judas Priest - I purchased it when it came out. I had seen pictures of Judas Priest, but I hadn't actually heard any music. I'd read they were a fantastic band but I didn't really know what I was in for. Then I put on Stained Class and what I heard was a completely unknown brand of surgically precise modern metal - there was no other band that had this absolute metal style. That was really the invention of metal. Even though Black Sabbath were before, Priest really reinvented themselves with Stained Class, and they also reinvented the entire genre of heavy rock - this album was a true revelation. I remember very distinctly when I listened to it in 1978 - I had to get used to it first. It was almost too modern for me at that age. As fantastic as the early albums are as well, on Stained Class they had this inexplicable groove - they had a really distinctive style of writing songs, and they were so precise." 

Top
 Profile  
idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 444
Location: England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:13 pm 
 

I think it was Lars who was behind Astronomy on Garage Inc., and the one thing you can say for him is he was a huge early heavy metal aficionado. and to be honest, as a millennial, that was how I discovered them.
Still, one thing about BÖC is I don't think they've ever had much more than a cult (!) following in the UK. I mean they played Monsters of Rock but they seemed to have very little direct effect on early British heavy metal. Could be wrong, but I wasn't familiar with Don't Fear the Reaper at all before Garage Inc!

Still, at least they toured with Black Sabbath, thus allowing the perfect name "Black and Blue" to happen.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:50 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
I'd also argue Saint Vitus are another.


Really? I don’t hear any BOC in St Vitus.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:53 pm 
 

_flow wrote:
Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially. 

Good grief. Unbelievable.

Top
 Profile  
Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8247
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:07 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
_flow wrote:
Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially. 

Good grief. Unbelievable.

Hey man, it's an easy mistake to made if you haven't listened to anything but Planet Caravan in your entire life. Cut the man some slack.
_________________
droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

Top
 Profile  
FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 646
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:18 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:

EDIT - for the discussion above, Blue Oyster Cult shouldn't be on the archives. I thought if the rest of the album was like The Alchemist then they'd earn a spot, but there's not enough of that material present. The ratio matters because if it didn't, then the archives would get oversaturated with tons of bands who got accepted because of that 1 or 2 metal songs they wrote that one time. So you have to draw the line somewhere, which is fine, really.

They're definitely a great band, and have for sure influenced the genre greatly, but while they DO have some undoubtedly heavy metal songs and can do the genre extraordinarily well, they themselves haven't committed themselves enough on a full album to being a heavy metal band. They're a progressive/psychedelic rock band that dabbles with heavy metal every now and then. There's a difference between the two.


Personally, I think that BOC should be on the Archives, as Rush are included on there for historical/influence reasons but IMO are very much coming from the same place as BOC - not a full on metal band but a hard rock/prog group with a more commercial side who have nevertheless been influential to many bands in the metal world.

I'm willing to acknowledge that bands like Rush, Deep Purple etc are included on the Archives for special reasons to do with their influence on the genre and not necessarily for their actual sound; my main point is that BOC should be added to this particular group.

I know that there is an argument for not adding bands that wrote one or two metal songs in their career to the Archives otherwise we'd be flooded with tons of obscure 60s and 70s hard rock acts, so a filter has to be applied, but BOC are different in that (like Deep Purple, Rush, and Thin Lizzy) there is a direct line from them to a lot of bands on the Archives in terms of influence, ambience/atmosphere, and style. Ghost are an obvious example of their influence, I'd also argue Saint Vitus are another. BOC's best work has a certain darkness/eerieness/mystery to it that has I think pretty widely permeated through the metal scene over the decades.


I think if Blue Oyster Cult were to be added to the archives, it would indeed have to be on these terms, in which case the debate comes down to whether or not their influence is significant enough to earn themselves a spot here as a "legacy band." I have a feeling this debate's already been had though.

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:23 pm 
 

^ They have nothing to "earn", nor should there be such an argument. If we consider "legacy", it will inevitably go back to the blues.
A debate could be held whether BOC is metal per se - but who defines metal?

Regarding Black Sabbath...
"Metal" to me is something dangerous and addictive, something which sticks to you until it rips your skin. Something feral and foul, sneaky and snapping, mounting and unwavering... I'm sure there's such a thing in Black Sabbath, but I can't get past Ozzy to find out. Maybe if I ate a bat.

P.S. I'm listening to Gary Numan and I'm pleasantly surprised to see he's on here.

Here in this room
I'm a slave to your voice
I wait in the dark
With a cold metal choice
Here in this room
Where desire will bleed
No-one can help you
No-one but me

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:17 am 
 

_flow wrote:
"Metal" to me is something dangerous and addictive, something which sticks to you until it rips your skin. Something feral and foul, sneaky and snapping, mounting and unwavering...

So, is this the same definition you used when you defined Fire Of The Unknown as metal from start to finish?

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:24 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
I think if Blue Oyster Cult were to be added to the archives, it would indeed have to be on these terms, in which case the debate comes down to whether or not their influence is significant enough to earn themselves a spot here as a "legacy band." I have a feeling this debate's already been had though.

In terms of influence, I very much doubt there would be too many musicians out that have said “Fuck yeah, those BOC riffs and solos made me want to form a band and play heavy fuckin metal like BOC!”

Top
 Profile  
MARSDUDE
Shitposter

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
Posts: 2181
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:38 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
I think if Blue Oyster Cult were to be added to the archives, it would indeed have to be on these terms, in which case the debate comes down to whether or not their influence is significant enough to earn themselves a spot here as a "legacy band." I have a feeling this debate's already been had though.

In terms of influence, I very much doubt there would be too many musicians out that have said “Fuck yeah, those BOC riffs and solos made me want to form a band and play heavy fuckin metal like BOC!”


Plenty of bands were influenced by BOC, including Iron Maiden.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:58 am 
 

MARSDUDE wrote:
Plenty of bands were influenced by BOC, including Iron Maiden.

Don’t hear it at all Dude, gimme some examples.

Top
 Profile  
DoomMetalAlchemist
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 1868
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:01 am 
 

_flow wrote:
^ They have nothing to "earn", nor should there be such an argument. If we consider "legacy", it will inevitably go back to the blues.
A debate could be held whether BOC is metal per se - but who defines metal?

Regarding Black Sabbath...
"Metal" to me is something dangerous and addictive, something which sticks to you until it rips your skin. Something feral and foul, sneaky and snapping, mounting and unwavering... I'm sure there's such a thing in Black Sabbath, but I can't get past Ozzy to find out. Maybe if I ate a bat.

P.S. I'm listening to Gary Numan and I'm pleasantly surprised to see he's on here.

Here in this room
I'm a slave to your voice
I wait in the dark
With a cold metal choice
Here in this room
Where desire will bleed
No-one can help you
No-one but me


This is probably an idiotic question, but you didn't give me a whole lot to work with..... Have you tried any of the numerous Sabbath albums that DON'T feature Ozzy?

Top
 Profile  
Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:03 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
I'd also argue Saint Vitus are another.


Really? I don’t hear any BOC in St Vitus.


The creepy vibe of the Reagers material owes something to BOC I think. BOC are also listed as one of Vitus's main influences on their Wiki page.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:08 am 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
I'd also argue Saint Vitus are another.


Really? I don’t hear any BOC in St Vitus.


The creepy vibe of the Reagers material owes something to BOC I think. BOC are also listed as one of Vitus's main influences on their Wiki page.

Now that you put it like that I can kinda hear it. Cool.

Top
 Profile  
Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:16 am 
 

Yeah, BOC's influence on the metal scene is an interesting one, as unlike Deep Purple/Rush/Thin Lizzy, it's not so much in terms of instrumental technique and approach or song arrangements but in the vibe and aura of their overall sound, which is a bit less easier to quantify as it's a more subtle influence in general. Once one thinks about it one definitely notices it more though.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 am 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah, BOC's influence on the metal scene is an interesting one, as unlike Deep Purple/Rush/Thin Lizzy, it's not so much in terms of instrumental technique and approach or song arrangements but in the vibe and aura of their overall sound, which is a bit less easier to quantify as it's a more subtle influence in general. Once one thinks about it one definitely notices it more though.

You’ve hit the nail right on the head here mate. Well said.

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:52 am 
 

Cosmic Equilibrium has indeed phrased it fine.
I posted a quote by Frost (Satyricon) expressing the same - "metal" is in the atmosphere, the mood, the vibe, not in technology and something easily categorised and quantifiable. "Metal" is easy to hear with the heart (or guts) and impossible if one hasn't got it - just like the blues.
As soon as I heard Fire Of Unknown Origin, I knew that's metal; same happened with Twisted Sister (anything, not just Burn In Hell), and with Dianno-fronted Maiden.

To answer whoever suggested I should listen to Sabbath without Ozzy - I will. My favourite rock song of all time is Gates Of Babylon. Dio, however, is a hard rock singer to me.
Iommi and Bloom would have worked magic.

Saying magic... Frost again: "Listen to A New Enemy" (his favourite song on Now Diabolical), "there's magical energy. Energy is my instrument. The darkness, the beautiful darkness... shall be forever."

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:05 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
_flow wrote:
Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially. 

Good grief. Unbelievable.

Hear him out. The three Sabbath albums I've heard (their first three) I do not consider to be metal albums. They're way too filled with bluesy guitar licks and hard rock chords with only a few songs per album being metal. "Iron Man", "Electric Funeral", and probably "Sweet Leaf" too are songs that I consider metal, because you can hear the guitars move away from chords and incorporate the patterns of notes that define what a metal riff is. You can definitely hear the metal evolving and coming into its own as a genre, but for that very reason, a lot of those albums are rock and not metal. There's no more metal on Paranoid than there is on Tool's Undertow. There's no difference between the diversity of notes played. There's just as much riffless chords. And double bass drumming obviously isn't a defining characteristic of metal (since it's possible for metal to exist without double bass).

Historical importance I can understand. That's just fine. And I haven't heard every Sabbath album, so it's likely that they have some fully metal ones. But if we're talking about historical significance, why don't we throw Korn on here too? Obviously not metal, but they did invent a genre that had massive reverberations throughout the metal world.
_________________
kingnuuuur wrote:
Pretty soon you might find bands like Torsofuck citing BastardHead as an influence.

Top
 Profile  
Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 339
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:11 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
_flow wrote:
Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially. 

Good grief. Unbelievable.

Hear him out. The three Sabbath albums I've heard (their first three) I do not consider to be metal albums. They're way too filled with bluesy guitar licks and hard rock chords with only a few songs per album being metal. "Iron Man", "Electric Funeral", and probably "Sweet Leaf" too are songs that I consider metal, because you can hear the guitars move away from chords and incorporate the patterns of notes that define what a metal riff is. You can definitely hear the metal evolving and coming into its own as a genre, but for that very reason, a lot of those albums are rock and not metal. There's no more metal on Paranoid than there is on Tool's Undertow. There's no difference between the diversity of notes played. There's just as much riffless chords. And double bass drumming obviously isn't a defining characteristic of metal (since it's possible for metal to exist without double bass).



Er wtf? OK, each to their own, but... Sabbath just sounded notably different to Deep Purple, Zeppelin etc at the time. They had an unambiguous heaviness in their sound and a certain weight/direction/vibe which just isn't found on, say Led Zep II or In Rock. It's not just the guitars, it's the way the bass integrates with them - the Iommi/Butler core sound is VERY distinctive and taps into some kind of core energy and gravity IMO in a way no other band had done before.

You could make an argument that the first two albums still have plenty of blues rock/jazz influences, but Master Of Reality is a different matter, that's notably more downtuned, sludgier and sonically a different weight than anything done previously. The riffs on that album just are something else, something more....

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 326
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:23 am 
 

News Flash News Flash according to a reputable source neither Black Sabbath or Dio are heavy metal, yes you heard it right, they are not heavy metal. Time to wrap it all up MA and move on outta here.

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:30 am 
 

@Lord Of Diamonds

Speaking about that (historical influence), I'm glad to see Led Zeppelin isn't on here. I know Priest keep lauding LZ - so what? Go on a Peter Green fansite and see how Plant is aptly described as a whiny hyena (while Green Manalishi, Green's darkest song, could see a proper tribute which would do justice to Peter's influence on heavy dark music).
Here's blues' eeriest player - and here is where metal could be traced, if we follow the thread to the beginning.
By the way, Cream covered Skip James only so that they pay for his cancer treatment, thanks to which he lived to record an album, his first in over thirty years; while Page and Plant "argued" why they didn't credit Blind Willie Johnson (for Nobody's Fault But Mine) - a monstrous singer all thrash could envy - because "he's long dead, and anyway we're too innovative to be associated with the original."




Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:48 am 
 

P.S. This is a fantastic blues documentary I didn't think would be on youtube (was taken down a few times). Wenders isn't my favourite art director, but he's made the best music documentaries. This one not only pays tribute to Skip James and Blind Willie Johnson, but features various musicians rendering classic blues songs in a way to make them explode... which is what metal does.

Wim Wenders - The Soul Of A Man
Narrated by Laurence Fishburne

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 28418
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:39 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
_flow wrote:
Black Sabbath who - for reasons I don't understand - are considered "metal" essentially. 

Good grief. Unbelievable.

Hear him out. The three Sabbath albums I've heard (their first three) I do not consider to be metal albums. They're way too filled with bluesy guitar licks and hard rock chords with only a few songs per album being metal. "Iron Man", "Electric Funeral", and probably "Sweet Leaf" too are songs that I consider metal, because you can hear the guitars move away from chords and incorporate the patterns of notes that define what a metal riff is. You can definitely hear the metal evolving and coming into its own as a genre, but for that very reason, a lot of those albums are rock and not metal. There's no more metal on Paranoid than there is on Tool's Undertow. There's no difference between the diversity of notes played. There's just as much riffless chords. And double bass drumming obviously isn't a defining characteristic of metal (since it's possible for metal to exist without double bass).

Historical importance I can understand. That's just fine. And I haven't heard every Sabbath album, so it's likely that they have some fully metal ones. But if we're talking about historical significance, why don't we throw Korn on here too? Obviously not metal, but they did invent a genre that had massive reverberations throughout the metal world.


Listening to old Sabbath and expecting it to sound like the metal of the late 80s and onwards (what people usually consider modern metal I'd wager) is a futile and silly way to listen. It doesn't sound like the metal you like from later because they weren't trying to do that and those sounds needed time to develop. If you can't hear how they were instrumental in developing the touchstones of the genre, I dunno man, gotta listen harder.

And yeah the albums they did in the 80s and onwards are obviously metal; and in keeping with the last paragraph, that's because the sounds of the day had begun evolving.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Antebellum

Top
 Profile  
Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8247
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:49 am 
 

Saying that early Sabbath isn't metal is as close a thing there is as having an objectively wrong opinion about music, probably. A mountain lion might look a bit different compared to a Smilodon, but there's still a clear relation between the two.
_________________
droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 28418
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Saying that early Sabbath isn't metal is as close a thing there is as having an objectively wrong opinion about music, probably. A mountain lion might look a bit different compared to a Smilodon, but there's still a clear relation between the two.


I just think it's kind of a pointless argument. They started in the late '60s before metal was really a thing, of course they didn't sound like what would commonly be known as metal 15+ years later. Things take time to evolve.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Antebellum

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 am 
 

Since I'm no authority, re-read the Tom Warrior quote I posted above - after all, not only is he a most extreme "metallist", but he's most influenced by Iommi. He says the first "metal" album he heard was Stained Class, and it shaped his understanding of the genre.

Top
 Profile  
Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8247
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:01 am 
 

Who cares what Warrior says? I like some of his music but he's just some guy. I don't need him to inform my opinions.
_________________
droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:03 am 
 

It seems your desire for Sabbath to be "metal" is deaf to whatever anyone may say.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 28418
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:08 am 
 

_flow wrote:
Since I'm no authority, re-read the Tom Warrior quote I posted above - after all, not only is he a most extreme "metallist", but he's most influenced by Iommi. He says the first "metal" album he heard was Stained Class, and it shaped his understanding of the genre.


I did. I think metal was not really defined for a long time and people will have different opinions on where it started, but many bands including Sabbath had a hand in it, mixing elements and trying stuff and generally pushing things forward. I just don't see how "Children of the Grave" and "Into the Void" and a lot of Sabotage ("Symptom of the Universe" especially) isn't metal to the fucking bone, really. If nothing else those songs were a huge influence on the direction metal would take as it developed.

Whatever you want to call em they were a fantastic innovative act and always been a favorite of mine, anyway.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Antebellum

Top
 Profile  
Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 1931
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:15 am 
 

_flow wrote:
Since I'm no authority, re-read the Tom Warrior quote I posted above - after all, not only is he a most extreme "metallist", but he's most influenced by Iommi. He says the first "metal" album he heard was Stained Class, and it shaped his understanding of the genre.


What even.. :lol: You even just said in your posts that you consider Tom Warrior an unreliable source. Why you don't just put down the books and listen to the actual music?
The only one who agrees with you is the guy that found deathcore elements in KD's Abigail!

Top
 Profile  
_flow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:22 am 
 

To seek agreement would make me a tad un-metal and un-warrior, wouldn't it.

Warrior may be an unreliable source where it comes to the assessment of his and his band's story, but nobody has disputed his musical taste. Of course, you're free to do so - but the fact remains he's arguably one of the musicians most influenced by Sabbath - he reveres and even idolises Iommi. The fact Iommi may not be "metal" (but someone who influenced the genre heavily) doesn't seem to worry him.
If Warrior is no authority, then I think Iommi himself has distanced from a "metal" tag, rather than identifying with it. But of course, he too is "just another guy".

Top
 Profile  
ThStealthP
Rare Earth Metal

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 pm
Posts: 771
Location: Dominican Republic
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:27 am 
 

What happened here? What did I miss?
_________________
Last.FM

Top
 Profile  
Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8247
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:28 am 
 

_flow wrote:
It seems your desire for Sabbath to be "metal" is deaf to whatever anyone may say.

Is your "desire" for water to be wet a thing deaf to whatever anyone may say?

Oh, and yeah, the new BÖC smokes, never expected them to make something this bonecrushing. Forgot that's what the thread was actually about.
_________________
droneriot wrote:
The instruments used are what you would expect from the little metal people: guitaloos, bassnaps, drumdrums, and voclatrons. The best things about the guitaloos are obviously the riffraffs.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ois666 and 38 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group