Hello
So basically that's my question. I've read on places that there are people who listen to metal "ironically" but I've never met anyone like that, are they real or are they just an invention of the blogosphere? People I know either like it (to whatever degree) or don't but I've never actually met anyone who was like "yeah, I listen to Immortal but only because they're funny somehow".

I know people who've stopped listening to metal but will never say they listened to it "ironically" or whatever when they did. The "stereotypical ironic metal listener" is supposedly a hipster but I have a friend who is in ways similar to the "stereotypical" hipster and he just doesn't like metal, and the sort of people I know who can listen to both indie rock and metal (like myself) to whatever degree, genuinely like the metal they enjoy. My posh friends just don't like metal at all, won't be like "yeah, Metallica is cool... for teenagers" or whatever.

Have you ever met a person who actually claims to listen to metal "ironically"?

This gets to the larger problem, of dumbasses not using words correctly.

You can’t like, or do something, “ironically.” You can be unintentionally ironic. For example, Slavic people making black metal that praises the Nazi regime, a Christian theocracy, that wanted to conquer and enslave most Slavic races, and claiming to worship Odin and Thor, which ends up, for them, being the opposite of nationalism, because those aren’t the religion of their ancestors, but instead, some other tribes, who raped and killed a bunch of their ancestors, because they just follow what some American white supremacists told them to, who actually get their philosophy from Christianity or Mormonism.

But people saying that they “ironically” like something? No, you may be educated, and “hipster,” but you like early Manowar, and Manilla Road, because Ross the boss kicks ass musically, and a part of you wants to be heroically fighting your enemies, with a sword.

Also, I got into indie rock, from metal, because it’s another from of hard rock. And many of the non-metal bands even take influence from metal. Deafheaven aren’t “indie rock hipsters, corrupting metal.” They consider themselves a rock band, influenced by second wave black metal, thrash, shoegaze, and pop. But they don’t consider themselves black metal.

I was lucky enough, to see Tengger Cavalry twice. One of those times, it was a sweltering summer night, in a very small venue, and most of the crowd was in the circle pit, at least some of the time. That includes one man I saw, wearing a Carly Rae Jepsen shirt. I am not making this up. It’s possible that he thought of himself as liking her “ironically,” or was wearing the shirt to make fun of her and pop music, but I don’t find that very believable. I think the likeliest explanation, was that he was someone who likes her music, and likes folk thrash songs, with fiddle and overtone vocals, about riding horses and fighting with swords. Especially, considering that it was a Friday night, in San Francisco, in an area filled with other attractions, like bars and restaurants, and nightclubs, he probably genuinely liked the music.

It's probably just hipsters who like to listen to Nightwish or Sabaton or something but don't think it's cool to admit that, and thus say it's "ironically".

That's all just made up stuff everybody repeated in the late aughts to try and seem cooler and more underground. Even if some people just like a few Nightwish or Kamelot songs, who gives a fuck anyway?

I can't recall actually meeting the "ironic metal fan" in real life, although I think the "ironic band shirt" is a thing (but that extends beyond metal). I do think there are people who consider metal, or certain styles at least, a "guilty pleasure" and maybe they fall into the category of "ironic metal fan" but I don't really think they listen to it as a joke, they just might be embarrassed to admit they actually like it.

I am a Carly Rae Jepsen fan myself and I like power metal and all styles of metal to different degrees, and I'm a man in my early thirties. I don't own a t-shirt of hers because I didn't feel like spending the money for it, but I definitely considered it, I'm quite open about me being a fan of hers. I do own a Charli XCX t-shirt; I really like her too.
I guess it's what you're implying, that people assume that you can't like that and that and so assume that one of the things you enjoy "ironically".



But is there anyone who actually does that? I follow certain meme music Facebook pages and they like to shit on Sabaton, the people who follow those pages don't seem to like those bands at all.



Yeah, I tend to believe the "ironic metal listeners" are mostly made up.



Yeah, that makes sense.

Anyone who blasts extreme brutal/evil slam death/core/black metal stuff not because they enjoy it but to brag about how "edgy" and "brutal" they are.

(used to be me, I cringe at those times)

Pretty sure the people you're describing here doesn't exist.


This. Just like "hipsters" used to be the "trve kvlt" metalheads' boogeyman.

Yeah, I really doubt there are people who only like metal "ironically". They might not like every subgenre or whatever, but I assume if you're listening to it it's because you genuinely enjoy it in some manner. I don't see what's ironic about that.

I've never been able to comprehend liking something "ironically". You either like it, or you don't. Simple.

I wonder if there's a "are "ironic" pop/x genre fans really a thing?" thread in other forums. I own a Vanessa Carlton shirt that I purchased when I saw her live awhile ago. I haven't worn it in public, but maybe I would in the right context. The idea of one person listening to completely different types of music is much more palatable now than it probably was maybe in the 90s or earlier.

I can't see myself ever liking something "ironically". I get genuine enjoyment out of most of what I listen to, including the blatantly and outwardly cheesy stuff. I don't listen to bands like Freedom Call or Twilight Force to be funny, for example - I actually enjoy listening to that kind of stuff. It's fun.

I'm not even sure you can actually like something ironically. I understand... say, a so-bad-it's-good appeal for certain things, like the film "Troll 2". Even then, I wouldn't call that ironic enjoyment since there's actual entertainment to be had watching that kinda stuff, even if it's not in a way that the creator of it intended. The musical (though very much unmetal) equivalent to this would be an album like "Philosophy of the World" by The Shaggs - an utterly inept-sounding album that's one of the funniest and most unique-sounding things out there. There's also a certain earnestness to it that's a bit captivating... which is how I see "Troll 2" as well, actually. I hope I'm making some fucking sense.

I mean, there's a certain Belphegor song that me and my brother put on every once in a while because it's part of an inside joke. We don't particularly like or dislike the song, it just seems very bland to us. I don't know, does that qualify?

Somewhat similar case here, though more positive. We used to put Uriah Heep's Bird of Play on and have a laugh, because the vocals were so over the top. Still it's a fucking great song, no one of us denies that. Guess there's some irony there... somewhere...

My younger brother (over thirty, IT job) has an attitude towards music in general and metal in particular that I can't really understand. No idea if it truly qualifies as "ironic", but he's more about how the music _sounds_ rather than what is actually being played (riffs, complexity etc) and especially what artistic message there might be behind the music. He's never taking music seriously.
The most baffling thing about it is that he actually used to have a "musician phase" as a teen, playing the drums, the guitar, writing complete metal tracks in guitar pro (with an ease that I always envied)... and then kinda "grew out of" everything.

The closest equivalent I can think of to any sort of "ironic" metal listener are people in the mid-aughts that got exposed to bands like The Sword, Dragonforce, Wolfmother, The Darkness, etc. that were unique in the mainstream zeitgeist for their throwback styles but were also seemingly disconnected from their initial scenes due to that same mainstream presence. People who otherwise had no interest in power metal but were into Dragonforce because of how over the top they were on Guitar Hero, resulting in power metal fans deeming them and the band as posers by association. I'm not sure how often that actually happened or if it even happened at all, but it was a trap that I certainly fell into as a grumpy gatekeeping teenager.

I think the modern equivalent is more along the lines of those "that's metal as fuck" or "does it doom" memes, but that has more to do with general aesthetics than specific bands.

when I was a teenager listening to Gorgasm and Cannibal Corpse I did kinda pretend I was just amused by it for a little while before I just dropped it and was like yeah I just like this stuff for whatever reason

I think hipsters in the metal scene are a thing, but I don't think the phenomenon is as widespread as it was initially made out to be during the peak of what some have since dubbed metal's "moral panic". I've known people who specifically got into a particular band such as say, Pantera or later, Mastodon, who were basically following a popular fixation resulting from mainstream media attention. I still hold a degree of resentment for these people, not so much because they were newbies who were entering the metal scene due to the influence of media outlets that I personally despised, but more so because they would tend to denigrate everything else metal with this sort of "if it isn't selling it's crap" line of reasoning, and most were incredibly smug about it. It was a very ironic form of elitism that I found extremely off-putting, and I think to a degree it didn't help that the bands who were the subject of this inflated level of media attention would encourage it or otherwise play into it. I didn't really get this same sort of dismissive ignorance from people who got into Dragonforce due to Guitar Hero, or even people who got into The Sword (I just like the music in the latter case), so I didn't treat it with the same degree of hostility as a result.

Having said that, I don't think the broader type of "ironic metal/music fan" that the OP is hinting at here is really a significant phenomenon, or at least I haven't encountered it. I think even the sort of vapid hipsters that I was put off by years back tend to actually like what they like, even if their motivation for doing so doesn't really make sense to me, I don't think people just intentionally pretend to like something that they really don't.

Eh, I suspect it does exist to some degree. There are people who are susceptible to influence by esteemed taste makers, a desire to fit in with particular crowds and give off certain appearances. The sort of people who have certain types of books prominently displayed on their shelves that they've never actually read, because they think the presence of those books exudes a desired vibe. I think the more common thing though is for people to exaggerate, to overly hype certain bands and then forget about them later on, never to mention them again, indicating the interest was just a fad.

Well, I will concede that I've known some people who go around wearing band t-shirts who can't even name 5 songs by said band, but it's rare for me to encounter people who actually own the albums and just never listen to them, actually I don't think I've ever personally known anyone who bought something on CD back in the day who didn't give it at least one or two playthroughs.

What you're describing, i.e. "fad chasing" sort of dovetails with my general distaste towards hipsters and also to trustees of mainstream media culture, and I will concur that this does happen with people latching onto metal under similar circumstances. To me the whole thing just comes off as something that a person should grow out of after secondary/high school. But I think that such people will, at least at the time, believe that they like what they are listening to, which would cut against how I understood the OP's concept of an "ironic" metal fan, but maybe I just misinterpreted what the OP was trying to convey.

Bro, The Darkness are fucking fantastic!!! Also, I really don't believe that The Darkness led in any way to a sure of "ironic" metal listening. I feel like they were probably more successful at raising sales for 80s bands and whatnot. Still, for real, The Darkness were always a super tight band with legitimately good songwriting chops. I really do enjoy them immensely, to this day.

I like metal music but also see that some musicians are junkies who just need their next fix. Maybe that means I like it ironically as I accept the music but not the whole package of people behind it and the scene.

That's not really what liking something ironically means I don't think. To like something ironically is to consider that thing so utterly unenjoyable that it's hilarious to you how bad it is, and what you really enjoy is the laugh you get from listening to this comedically awful music rather than actually enjoying the music itself. Essentially if you say you enjoy something ironically, you are trying to mock that thing because it is bad in your opinion.

Having reservations about the life and lifestyle of metal musicians negatively influence your enjoyment of their music is perfectly valid, but that does not make your enjoyment of the music ironic in nature.


EDIT:
Forgot to add my example. I have a sort of internet acquaintance who will sometimes post Cannibal Corpse songs ironically for the shock content of the lyrics. I Cum Blood specifically, I think.

Most people I know don't give a second thought to who is creating the music that they like unless they are really committed fans, and even then they will tend to separate the artist from the art just by default. I don't really follow or care about the political speeches put out by Varg, but Burzum is still a regular in my listening rotation if I'm in a black metal mood.

I don't really see how you can keep up the front of liking something "ironically" if you don't actually like the music. I mean you can just say you like it without actually ever listening to it, but at that point, you're just projecting a false image. If you're listening to something and you don't actually like it at some point you're going to stop because you're not getting any enjoyment from it and putting up a front will eventually become too exhausting.

Many people have talked about the “ironic” and how it’s used here but I will say that I feel like there are a lot of “affected” metal fans, but mostly people tangentially related to the subculture. I’m also into skateboarding and it’s a big thing lately to be into Burzum and similar early 90s/second wave style black metal out of nowhere despite it seeming really incongruous to how the people and brands represent themselves otherwise. Supreme and their videographer Bill Strobeck have included a few Burzum songs in some edits, which is especially cringe-y when many of the skaters featured in those videos are black so even as a white guy, I’m offended. But even when it’s not Burzum, it often feels more like a desire to include some obscure, “it sounds like noise but you just don’t get it!” song for some “too cool” reasons versus a song that actually fits the edit.

I'm not sure if "fan" is the right label, but there is a section of the big-indie crowd that latches onto the occasional metal song for a few minutes.

One good example is that there's this "alternative" national radio station in Australia (JJJ) and naturally they give metal almost no attention beyond a few instances - if an Australian metal band becomes too big to ignore (eg. Parkway Drive), or if it ticks their fanbase's "ironic box". The Dragonforce song "Through the Fire and Flames" copped this treatment when it came out - for a good few weeks they played the song at least once a day, and everyone went "ha ha, this sounds like nintendos!" etc. Its popularity was honestly kind of an insult haha - they only played it because "lol, heavy metal is so goofy! get a load of this!" and so on.

Beyond this, I have a few friends who aren't metalheads by any stretch but will always play crap like Sabaton, Amon Amarth, Steel Panther, etc etc. They only do it for the lulz as well.

An "ironic" listener is someone who enjoys metal but doesn't respect it.

Like an anime fan who watches bottom-tier magical schoolgirl weeb shit while having nothing but contempt for it. It's an odd relationship to have with art, but it's one I've definitely seen before.

This is the average indie/alternative/hipster type in a nutshell based on my own experience, which is entirely why I've tended to avoid them both online and in real life. I don't think they qualify as "fans", in fact, I'd call them the exact opposite of that.

I used to work with someone who liked Manowar, but thought they were stupid and ridiculous. But for the most part, I think most of what people are referring to are the fanbases of mainstream/poser metal bands.

I think that a lot of the hate for “hipsters,” is just inverted hipsterdom. Like people who insist that they’re sophisticated for liking radio pop. A lot of it is just people who see anyone with a certain look, and assume that those people must be posers, or assholes, without evidence. When shows were actually happening, I saw plenty of people who looked like the typical hipster look, and weren’t wearing metal shirts or patch vests. I assume that these people came to see High on Fire, with five ultra underground, non-famous sludge/stoner metal bands(who I know, from taking to them, or hearing interviews, do not pay their bills off of music)opening for them, because they enjoy the music.

I think that what people are talking about is less of a thing, with truly underground bands. Actually, some kid I went to elementary school with ended up becoming a real hipster, in high school, and I know he listened to stuff like Bolt Thrower and Napalm Death. This isn’t metal, but he actually posted on Facebook, back in high school, that he had bought an AxCx shirt, from Seth Putnam, and his mail had gotten stolen by tweakers. Eventually, he ended up recovering it, but not before dozens of people(myself included) commented on his post with the typical edgelord crap.

It's paradoxical, but I think sometimes there's something to that though. For someone who is hyper into underground and weird music, sometimes it's as difficult for them to appreciate a pop song as it is for the top 40 listener to listen to something extreme or avant-garde. There's an art to evaluating different forms of music for their own particular and unique merits. No one places equal value on each of those forms, but they each have their own inherent attributes and values subject to a range of quality.

Yeah, I guess this is a case of what people call "listening to metal ironically". No fan of anything listens to it ironically although it's well possible for someone who isn't a fan to listen to a certain type of music in this way.



With pop this attitude is much more prevalent, there's a lot of this silly "guilty pleasure" thing going on. The average relatively young person knows the popular pop artists of the moment and it's easier to enjoy pop than metal (especially the extreme varieties) but to some people there's a shame in listening to certain pop artists.

Absolutely. I know I can't understand contemporary international and local Russian pop music.

They're probably totally out of your wheelhouse, but t.A.T.u. had some fun stuff in the 00s.

^I've heard their hits (mostly because I knew a dude from the UK who wanted to know what the songs were about LOL), but yeah, not my cup of tea.
There are several Finnish pop and pop/rock albums from this century that I really enjoy, though.

What are those? It occurs to me I know a bit of Swedish and Norwegian pop, but pretty much nothing Finnish.

Laura Närhi's first two records, Saija Tuupanen (basically anything that's not Christmas - and hers is a more "old-fashioned" style, so to speak), and on the rockier side - Tiktak (plus Petra's first solo record), Indica (before they got nightwished and nuclearblasted), Haloo Helsinki! (mostly the first three albums), Osku Ketola's bands (Jaarli Padington, Palava, and now he's in Elonkerjuu it's like when Floor joined NW in terms of making all the sense, but the difference is that I like the music), Maija Vilkkumaa (strictly before she took a break). And there's a random smattering of songs by other artists - Jenni Vartiainen, Kaija Koo...
...I think I just lost all the potential for being respected by our Finnish forumites XD

I think you're getting close to something here. While you're absolutely right in that enjoying a movie which is so bad it's good is still objective entertainment, the notion here is that the spectator who claims to be enjoying the movie "ironically" has a preconceived acceptance that the movie is, in one aspect or another, inferior. Taste is of course always subjective but to argue that Plan 9 From Outter Space is a technically sound, well directed, or skillfully executed just because one finds it entertaining is absurd. This could be thought of as an example of "ironic entertainment."

Once somebody discovers "ironic entertainment," then he/she can start to search for it elsewhere. Herein lies the problem: When someone looks at heavy metal through the same lens as say Troll 2 or Plan 9 and apply the same principles. They hear something which is completely foreign to them, be it King Diamond falsettos, Death Metal growls, Thrash Metal shredding, Black Metal lo-fi production or whatever the fuck one might find in Symphonic Power Metal, they assume and accept, as they did with the films above, that the music is in some way inferior because it doesn't fit the mold of mainstream culture. The excitement of the discovery could definitely promote a curiosity and a very superficial interest/joy in the music, which could predictably enough lead to exposing friends to the music, buying shirts from certain bands or even attending a festival, all in order to provoke some sort of reaction.

So I guess what I'm getting at is yeah, I think "ironic" metal fans are a thing...