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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2326
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:37 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I should have clarified better. When Slavic NSBM bands claim to be into Germanic mythology, they are most likely into it because of the influence of American white supremacists. It’s something that, when you think about it doesn’t make sense. The old Norse culture actually conquered areas of what are now, Russia and Ukraine, therefore, fore them, it’s the opposite of nationalism, because those people made war against their ancestors. They are into it, because of white supremacists promoting it as the true white religion, an alternative to Christianity, which comes from Judaism.

You’re correct, being into Germanic native, pre-Christian beliefs does not make someone neo-Nazi. But neo-Nazis like to use the imagery. The NSDAP did use some pre-Christian imagery, like their military insignias, but, Hitler stressed, they were a Christian regime.

I should’ve clarified, most of the “pagan” NSBM bands don’t even have lyrics about pagan mythology, or values. It’s just some vague appeals to tradition, and hating modernity, and being tough. And their values are just very conservative Christian ones. So they’re just fake pagans. Bands that have actual pagan lyrics tend not to have white power beliefs.


Fair enough. I think we are in agreement on most of this anyway. There's just an intention I missed somewhere in your post.

As for contradictions, it's often the case for many ideologies. You are right when pointing out the contradiction in eastern european ultra-nationalists celebrating the culture of people who colonized them centuries ago.

However, I think it needs to be pointed out that while it is true that Hitler and the Nazis were mostly conservative Christians, the Conservative Revolution in Germany that led to the uprising of Nazism, was in fact very diverse and actually had a lot of pagan influences. Beyond a focus on ethnicity and the Aryans, there was an idea of a deep connection between the people and the territory they inhabit. The concept of volk, in German, actually means more than just community or ethnicity, it actually implies a connection to a place, to nature, to the fields that the inhabitants are harvesting.

Anyway, I'm not going to presume that pagan nsbm bands are all drawing from these influences. I just thought I'd mention them. However, I think you are also correct in pointing out that some nsbm bands are most likely taking influences from american white supremacists. It's also easier in the 21st century for white supremacists to rally behind symbols that are really "white", more so than Judeo-Christianism, hence the fact that some contradictions might arise from this. Like those you pointed out.

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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 691
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:05 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I mean, I can why a tool that would list all bands with (or without) specific themes could be helpful. So it's not so much that your idea is bad, as much as I don't think the whole "people who value their time" or "to prove that not all black metal bands are nsbm to normies" arguments are really all that convincing ;)


There could surely be more usage scenarios for a tool like this, I just spoke about my experience that made me want it. If you always have enough time to do everything you want, that's awesome :D

Sokaris wrote:
Is the current subtopic of this thread really "Metal Archives needs to completely change the way it operates so I don't lose a hypothetical argument"?


Who's talking about "completely"? Extra functionality, that's all. If the website owners don't feel like adding that, okay.

...and "hypothetical", I wish.

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
As for Russian companies blocking the site, the state of Russia also bans “homosexual propaganda,” and harasses Cannibal Corpse. It’s kind of absurd to blame this site for the actions of a state like that.


Eh? You must've misunderstood. There was no blaming. I stated my _emotional_response_ to the situation - doing this is not against the law in most countries AFAIK.

As for CC, well, it's not just Russia; looks like they're too well-known to safely slide under that "belligerent conservative" radar.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1846
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:27 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
As for contradictions, it's often the case for many ideologies. You are right when pointing out the contradiction in eastern european ultra-nationalists celebrating the culture of people who colonized them centuries ago.


This is troublesome if one looks for any one authentic ancestry. How far back are we supposed to go? And how do we know if something is authentic or not? There is an argument for going back to paganism but what paganism? It isn't just one thing. Up here in Sweden we usually view the belief in the asa gods and the vanir gods as our heritage but it is also believed this wasn't original to people in out geographical area. And even if it was most of what we know about this old religion comes from Christian sources - how much trust can we put in them?

And of course many people on the extreme right are Christians which is definitely not authentic to Europe historically. It does make sense for the ones who claim ideas can be assimilated into a geographical area but it is troublesome if people claim to look for a true European soul or something along those lines.

Though there is a third possibility which I've seen people argue for and that is that a true European soul somehow shines forth through any religion which grew organically in Europe. In that line of thinking Christianity has conformed to the European spirit just like the pre-Christan pagan traditions also did. This is something along the lines of culture shaping religion (which of course is true in some ways but it also works in reverse).
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Hexenmacht46290
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 204
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:18 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
As for contradictions, it's often the case for many ideologies. You are right when pointing out the contradiction in eastern european ultra-nationalists celebrating the culture of people who colonized them centuries ago.


This is troublesome if one looks for any one authentic ancestry. How far back are we supposed to go? And how do we know if something is authentic or not? There is an argument for going back to paganism but what paganism? It isn't just one thing. Up here in Sweden we usually view the belief in the asa gods and the vanir gods as our heritage but it is also believed this wasn't original to people in out geographical area. And even if it was most of what we know about this old religion comes from Christian sources - how much trust can we put in them?

And of course many people on the extreme right are Christians which is definitely not authentic to Europe historically. It does make sense for the ones who claim ideas can be assimilated into a geographical area but it is troublesome if people claim to look for a true European soul or something along those lines.

Though there is a third possibility which I've seen people argue for and that is that a true European soul somehow shines forth through any religion which grew organically in Europe. In that line of thinking Christianity has conformed to the European spirit just like the pre-Christan pagan traditions also did. This is something along the lines of culture shaping religion (which of course is true in some ways but it also works in reverse).


I think it’s for the individual, who wants to believe in a religion, to decide. But the extremists don’t really think that way, NSBM included. You see this with neo-pagan groups that try to come up with moral codes that their ancestors didn’t actually believe in. An example of this would be Wiccanism, which aren’t extremists, but is supposed to be some authentic religion, when it’s very obviously a 19th century creation, meant to rebel against Christianity.

The truth is, coming up with an “authentic,” centralized “asatru” religion, is itself, an idea influenced by religions from more urban, literate cultures(Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etcetera). Archeologists think that the really ancient Germanic cultures actually thought that Tyr was the chieftain of the gods(like Zeus, Jupiter, Perun, Indra before Hinduism), and that the Odin we know came later. Early English, Germans, and old Norse, didn’t actually believe in the same exact things. The idea that they would’ve, or that they would’ve even bothered to get offended, that some somewhat related tribe was committing “heresy,” is a more modern idea. Different, loosely related tribal cultures borrowed from elsewhere(before Cortez conquered the Aztec empire, some people were worshiping Jesus, as another pagan god). The modern idea of religion comes mostly from medieval Christians and Muslims fighting religious wars against each other, and people of the same religion, and killing “heretics.” Put pagan cultures were much less likely to be like this. If they wanted to fight you, they would pray to the war gods. But they didn’t need the excuse of religion, to conquer and enslave. Like I said, they would’ve just admitted that it was “(in voice of Arnold)...crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women.”

It’s even possible that the idea of ragnarok, and Valhalla might’ve been invented, or heavily retconned, by Christian monks writing down old Norse sagas, as a way of getting pagans to sympathize with Christianity, by implying that their old gods had been real, but were already dead. The story ending with a new Earth, and only one human man and woman, could just be a retcon, to bring it into the Christianity universe.

If you look at other sources, one Arab historian actually claimed that some Viking king had died, and his favorite concubine was allowed as much food and alcohol as she demanded, and sex acts, from whichever man she wished, the night before she was burned alive, with him, in his funeral. Could’ve actually happened, or it could be an exaggeration, or lie, about “infidels.”

The point is, even to the extent you have accurate information, pagan tribal societies don’t really think about religion the same way modern people do. Even the non-tribal Roman soldiers ended up worshiping the Persian god Mithras. And some Greek artists, in Alexander’s empire, ended up making statues of Buddha, dressed in a Greek style, because they admired his stoicism and anti-materialism. European Christianity was forced to adopt to the native cultures, which is why winter solstice celebrations became “Christ’s birthday,” and spring equinox became his death and rebirth. More rigid, newer religions, like Christianity and Islam had to make some allowances for pagan cultural practices. Modern day extremists are going in reverse. Claiming to go back to the ancient, authentic native religion, but really it’s more of just Christianity with a pagan facade, and NSBM is especially guilty of this, when they don’t talk about pagan beliefs at all, and just talk about what kind of people need to be killed, in genocide and ideological inquisition.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1771
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:36 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
It’s even possible that the idea of ragnarok, and Valhalla might’ve been invented, or heavily retconned, by Christian monks writing down old Norse sagas, as a way of getting pagans to sympathize with Christianity, by implying that their old gods had been real, but were already dead. The story ending with a new Earth, and only one human man and woman, could just be a retcon, to bring it into the Christianity universe.

That is very unlikely. The Christian monks who wrote down these stories in Iceland did so in the 1270s and even later, hundreds of years after Norse paganism stopped being practiced. That's why we know so little about the customs themselves, because the stories were all that was left. So the Christian monks didn't have to convince any Pagans, so they have no motive of "retconning" the stories.

You could say the biggest influence they had on the story was actually writing it down. Before that it was an oral tradition that was dying out as Christianity took the place of Norse Paganism. Actually having it on paper codifies and gives it a permanence and absoluteness it might never have had in Pagan societies.

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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 1091
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:43 pm 
 

All the imagery we have on stones about Ragnarök are from the Christian age; not even one from the time before.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1771
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:52 pm 
 

I don't know enough about runestones to tell if that's correct or not, but even if that is true it doesn't prove anything. 99% of all knowledge of Norse religion was written down with Latin script by Christian monks on Iceland in the 1200s. Most of the stories are only found there. It's extremely rare to find depictions of myths in runestones. The only one I can think of at the top of my head is Thor having the Midgard Serpent on the hook and his foot breaking through the boat. This is depicted on a runestone, but that's the exception, not the rule for most stories.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10022
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of loading up M-A with trigger warnings. It's a slippery slope, and awfully redolent of the 90s explicit content parental advisory stickers.

It's unnecessary too because we address this at the bottom of our Privacy and Content Policy page.

As for Russia banning us... :shrugs: what can I say. We aren't going to change how we do things to appease some shitty authoritarian government, that's for sure. They can get bent. There's also a deep irony in authoritarian regimes trying to crack down on pages that actually highlight their own fascist nationals, lol.

I do feel bad for our Russian visitors who need to use VPNs and whatnot, though, but it is what it is.

HeavenDuff wrote:
It's this kind of messed up logic that makes me feel uneasy whenever I come across redskins wearing my Mjölnir around my neck.

R....redskins? :scratch: Did you use the wrong word here?
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1846
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:53 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I think it’s for the individual, who wants to believe in a religion, to decide. But the extremists don’t really think that way, NSBM included. You see this with neo-pagan groups that try to come up with moral codes that their ancestors didn’t actually believe in. An example of this would be Wiccanism, which aren’t extremists, but is supposed to be some authentic religion, when it’s very obviously a 19th century creation, meant to rebel against Christianity.


I want to think you for taking time to write that long post. I enjoyed reading it quite a bit but am not qualified to reply to all of it. This is very true however. Wicca is a prime example. Claiming to have pre-christian roots while it really only uses pre-christian imagery, mythology and concepts but make something very modern from it. I'm even more familiar with the Temple of Set who at times claimed it didn't actually want to reawaken the old "Setian religion" (if there ever was such a thing in itself) but at other times claimed to be the actual ancestors of the ancient priesthood of Set. In reality it is quite clearly a mic of Crowley, LaVey and some Platonist dualistic thinking.

In the case of political movements using religion it seems like it is most common that religion doesn't shape their politics as much as politics shape their religion. I'm certainly no expert on these topics but to me that's what it looks like. Most definitely in the case of national socialism (which is, of course, thankful since the sources are so muddy anyway concerning pre-christian paganism).


Quote:
The point is, even to the extent you have accurate information, pagan tribal societies don’t really think about religion the same way modern people do. Even the non-tribal Roman soldiers ended up worshiping the Persian god Mithras. And some Greek artists, in Alexander’s empire, ended up making statues of Buddha, dressed in a Greek style, because they admired his stoicism and anti-materialism. European Christianity was forced to adopt to the native cultures, which is why winter solstice celebrations became “Christ’s birthday,” and spring equinox became his death and rebirth. More rigid, newer religions, like Christianity and Islam had to make some allowances for pagan cultural practices. Modern day extremists are going in reverse. Claiming to go back to the ancient, authentic native religion, but really it’s more of just Christianity with a pagan facade, and NSBM is especially guilty of this, when they don’t talk about pagan beliefs at all, and just talk about what kind of people need to be killed, in genocide and ideological inquisition.


There is an interesting case for why there is so rare with Buddhism in the place of its origin (India) and that's because Hinduism (problematic term I know) is such a strong polytheistic (also problematic since it could be considered multi-facetted monism/Pantheism or alike as well) type system that it simply absorbed Siddharta as the Buddha. He became a tiny part of the pantheon and thus Buddhism as a separate religion didn't find stability until it spread north and east.

raumr wrote:
I don't know enough about runestones to tell if that's correct or not, but even if that is true it doesn't prove anything. 99% of all knowledge of Norse religion was written down with Latin script by Christian monks on Iceland in the 1200s. Most of the stories are only found there. It's extremely rare to find depictions of myths in runestones. The only one I can think of at the top of my head is Thor having the Midgard Serpent on the hook and his foot breaking through the boat. This is depicted on a runestone, but that's the exception, not the rule for most stories.


I grew up with several runestones nearby (the closest about 20 meter from where I grew up) and what you say is true. Most just tell stuff along the lines of "Sigurd had this stone risen to the memory of his son Ansgar who died tragically" or something along those lines.
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Metal Archives resident goat fucker. Since adopting the name InnesI online I've also been called a satanist, communist, right wing, nazi-apologist, fascist, muslim, muslim lover, PC, neoliberal and boot licker! Feel free to add your projection too. :-)

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2326
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:13 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
R....redskins? :scratch: Did you use the wrong word here?


Anarcho-communist skinheads.

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 875
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:34 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
R....redskins? :scratch: Did you use the wrong word here?


Anarcho-communist skinheads.

Wow and here I thought you were gonna say rednecks. What the fuck is a anarcho-communist skinhead and is that even possible?

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1846
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:41 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
R....redskins? :scratch: Did you use the wrong word here?


Anarcho-communist skinheads.

Wow and here I thought you were gonna say rednecks. What the fuck is a anarcho-communist skinhead and is that even possible?


RASH - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redskin_(subculture)
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Metal Archives resident goat fucker. Since adopting the name InnesI online I've also been called a satanist, communist, right wing, nazi-apologist, fascist, muslim, muslim lover, PC, neoliberal and boot licker! Feel free to add your projection too. :-)


Last edited by InnesI on Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 875
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:01 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:

Thanks ITGF. It's a mad mad world.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1846
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:38 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Thanks ITGF. It's a mad mad world.


My very own acronym! <3
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Metal Archives resident goat fucker. Since adopting the name InnesI online I've also been called a satanist, communist, right wing, nazi-apologist, fascist, muslim, muslim lover, PC, neoliberal and boot licker! Feel free to add your projection too. :-)

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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2517
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:00 pm 
 

"Redskin" is honestly a weird word to use. It can also be an offensive term for Native Americans in the United States as far as I know. Just pointing it out, my first though was also "WTF is this HeavenDuff guy up to".

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2326
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:06 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
"Redskin" is honestly a weird word to use. It can also be an offensive term for Native Americans in the United States as far as I know. Just pointing it out, my first though was also "WTF is this HeavenDuff guy up to".


Yes, I'm familiar with this. Call them RASH or Communist Skinheads or whatever than. I'm not the one who made-up the name redskin. That's a real thing :P

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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
Posts: 6724
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:01 am 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
..Hitler stressed (The Third Reich) was a Christian regime..


That’s a distortion. Propaganda value was always the first, second, third and fourth priority in Hitler’s quest to rally the masses towards his own vision of Germany’s “rebirth”. German National Socialism under Adolf Hitler was itself the desired goal (religion).

Much has been written about the Church Struggle during that time. It was a huge thorn in Hitler’s side and he had to acquiesce to token acceptance of Germany’s sizeable Lutheran and Catholic communities. He was constantly nagged by anti-Christian underlings like Goebbels, Bormann, Darré, Himmler and Rosenberg when church values got in the way of day-to-day policies. And time and again he reassured them that Christianity would mercilessly be done away with forever in Germany after victory was achieved in the war.

Nor did he think much of the old Germanic paganism. He scoffed in particular at Himmler’s yen for a Thulean Germany. Hitler’s view on religion had quite a socialist tone.

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wraithlike
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:39 am 
 

Hitler kinda was a Christian though. He put his own spin on it, and called it 'Positive Christianity'. His gripes with Christianity were that it was too Jewish, and too sympathetic to disenfranchised and downtrodden Jews. His version of Christianity throws away all of the Old Testament, and rejects Jesus being Jewish and makes him aryan instead. In his own words:

"I would like here to appeal to a greater than I, Count Lerchenfeld. He said in the last session of the Landtag that his feeling 'as a man and a Christian' prevented him from being an anti-Semite. I say: My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." He also once said: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

Of course there will be times where he might have contradicted this, because fascist ideologies tend to be ripe with internal inconsistencies. And of course you can't really take a person like Hitler at his word when he says a Christian. But he definitely wasn't an atheist either, he seemed to sincerely believe that he and the Nazis were gods chosen people to fight off the Jews and whatever batshit insane bullshit they believed.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1846
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:58 pm 
 

wraithlike wrote:
In his own words:

"I would like here to appeal to a greater than I, Count Lerchenfeld. He said in the last session of the Landtag that his feeling 'as a man and a Christian' prevented him from being an anti-Semite. I say: My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." He also once said: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."


Where did he write (or say) this? I don't doubt he did just curious as to where and in what circumstance.
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Inkshooter
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

People have been using Hitler's religiosity (or lack thereof) as a political cudgel for decades. The fact of the matter is that Nazism is not intellectually or logically coherent, it's just a hodge-podge of imagined racial and political grievances and alliances of convenience. The religious beliefs of Hitler and the Nazi party were not the animating force behind their anti-Semitism. Jews were marginalized by the NSDAP because of their "race", not their religious affiliation, and the party found support among Catholics, Protestants, and atheists alike.
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TheLoneForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:16 pm
Posts: 524
Location: Quebec
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:19 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
Actual Vikings were greedy. They loved raping, killing, stealing, and enslaving.


Literally the dumbest comment made in this thread

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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 691
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:35 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
There's also a deep irony in authoritarian regimes trying to crack down on pages that actually highlight their own fascist nationals, lol.


It actually works a bit differently. The "authoritarian regime" itself as embodied by the top officials does not even know or care what's going on when it comes to small-scale issues like this.

There's this group of laws here that prohibits dissemination of certain types of information - under the guise of it being "dangerous to minors" or "offensive to a major recognized religious group", things like that; the laws are deliberately worded very vaguely.

Then, there are courts without whose orders nothing ever happens here. Someone needs to bring this particular issue to court. Then a dedicated "expert" studies the information and states whether it "really" violates the law.

Mind you, the laws are federal level, but since Russia is a federation, the exact understanding of them will necessarily vary between regions. Also regional "experts" are very different in terms of their background, training, bias etc.

And the regional court edict feeds back onto the federal level as overseen by the dedicated service called Roskomnadzor, which then informs ISPs (in this case; could be libraries if we were talking printed media) of what they have to do. Then the actual implementation is down to the individual ISP.

It's quite a mess, as you can see.

PS It's basically impossible to buy toy soldiers here these days representing historical Nazi troops because some court ruled that Nazi symbols on their uniforms etc count as Nazi propaganda. I don't even know if there are Nazi swastikas shown in history textbooks these days.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5835
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

interstellar_medium wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
There's also a deep irony in authoritarian regimes trying to crack down on pages that actually highlight their own fascist nationals, lol.


It actually works a bit differently. The "authoritarian regime" itself as embodied by the top officials does not even know or care what's going on when it comes to small-scale issues like this.

On a process level, sure, but on a policy level, it's been a policy of the current government there for at least the last decade to want to develop a Russian equivalent of the Great Firewall of China. China was able to pull it off relatively successfully because it established online restrictions extremely early in the rollout of the Internet, whereas in Russia there's the challenge that people there are already used to the freedom and flexibility offered through their online experience (and the domestic alternatives are not as strong as the government would hope). The policy recognizes this reality; the sudden, wholesale blocking of whole portions of the Internet that Russians take for granted would receive substantial opposition, whereas the chipping away of websites and services gradually is less likely to meet much opposition, particularly if it can be loosely justified in some manner. People buy into it, using the same rationale you're doing, that it's just small-scale and can somehow be rationalized, but the ultimate goal is death by a thousand cuts for the Internet as you know it. MA is a victim of it; it's not the first, and it won't be the last, especially now that your current government feels more comfortable in its permanence.
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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 691
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:44 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
the ultimate goal is death by a thousand cuts for the Internet as you know it. MA is a victim of it; it's not the first, and it won't be the last


You know what we say here? "The strictness of a law is perfectly offset by how loosely it's enforced in practice".

Again, this particular ISP lets me use the forums and browse the cat mirror fine, no vpn required. The other does not.
The ruling might even get lifted eventually, it's happened to other non-Russian sites.

Remember the anti-Telegram battle? All the pro-government media have now embraced it and have their own channels.

The thought of people who don't understand zilch being entrusted with decisions affecting even minor matters is infuriating - but here it's your everyday reality. Most bosses here are incompetent, period. Nepotism, things like that. Sad but true (tm)

We deserve our crappy government, parliament and courts. Because that's how the Russian mentality operates. Make one and one's family cozy, the others be damned. We've had dynasties replacing each other, revolutions and so on - and nothing ever changed.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10022
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
R....redskins? :scratch: Did you use the wrong word here?


Anarcho-communist skinheads.

Huh. TIL.
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a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1832
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:30 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
I wonder however if they are still NS. The new albums theme seems to be based around steppe cultures and nazis from eastern europe are generally very much racist against these peoples.


They were always generally preoccupied with Scythians AFAIK. I wouldn't count out them being NS at all considering steppe cultures in that area were Indo-European, and Nazis have a thing about Indo-Europeans.
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