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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 929
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:51 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Smalley wrote:
What are you even arguing here? Catchyness is not the golden standard by which we judge the quality of all music, especially not metal music. Catchyness doesn't mean what you're describing here anyway. Great riffs are not necessarly catchy ones. There's also a big distinction between catchy riffs and accessible riffs (radio-friendly, pop sounding riffs). By your standards, there is basically no quality punk music, and all thrash music that focuses on speed and agression, like Kreator or Slayer, more than ear worm choruses, are subpar.

Sepultura had established themselves as a major thrash metal act way before Chaos A.D. So yeah, you're also wrong on that account. If anything, with Chaos A.D. the band was starting to make a very obvious shift towards groove/nu-metal territory, and the following album proves this to be true.

So because Metallica was catchy, Sepultura should have emulated what Metallica was doing? What...? Get out of here. Beneath the Remains and Arise are clearly way better records than Chaos A.D.
Catchiness isn't the only important factor in determining how good music is (not that I ever said that it was, for the record), but it still tends to be a significant factor in determining that anyway, and if a record (even a Metal record) lacks a sufficent amount of it to the person listening to it, then it's a flaw. Anyway, the point about Kreator/Slayer is also making an argument that I never made, because I don't feel that way (I mean, something like "Silent Scream" is very thrashy, but it also manages to be catchy as fuck at the same time; again, this isn't some either/or dilemma, and it shouldn't be treated like one). I also know Sep was a major, established Thrash act back in the day, and I never tried to say that they weren't; what I'm saying is, for the reasons I've already explained, that they were a Thrash act that had some room for improvement in their sound, which they did with Chaos, A.D., which is why it's "clearly" their best record for me.
Kalaratri wrote:
Catchiness is a subjective criterion anyway. There are plenty of Sepultura riffs from both Beneath The Remains and Arise that get stuck in my head. Sepultura simplified their songwriting on Chaos A.D. and even more on Roots, to the effect that most of the elements of the band's sound that I liked were eliminated. Now obviously there are people who prefer the jumpdafuckup grooves of Chaos A.D. and Roots, but even within the context of groove and nu-metal Chaos A.D. and Roots are poorly executed compared to what other bands in those genres were doing at the time.
There are good songs/moments on the old-school Sep records, but about half the riffs Beneath The Remains sound pretty indistinguishable from each other, IMO, which is why I've always preferred Chaos to them; it may have fewer riffs per song than BTR did, but the riffs on it are generally more entertaining to listen to on an individual level, so it's a quality over quantity issue for me. Besides that, there's also a greater, more dynamic variety of tempos on it, ranging from up-tempo ("Propaganda"), slower ("Nomad"), or both in the same song ("Refuse/Resist"), which, combined with some of Iggor's best drumming, the improved production/vocals/lyrics, and the way that the band continued to expand their sonic palette (like with "Kaiowas"), makes me put it up alongside the best of Pantera or any other Groove band, and I would no more require Sep to have thrashed their entire career to be great than I would need Candlemass to stop playing so slowly, you know?
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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 857
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:44 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
Now obviously there are people who prefer the jumpdafuckup grooves of Chaos A.D. and Roots, but even within the context of groove and nu-metal Chaos A.D. and Roots are poorly executed compared to what other bands in those genres were doing at the time.

Not sure why you're lumping Chaos AD in with nu-metal. Korn wasn't out until '94 and the only "groove" metal of note around then (92/93) was Pantera and Exhorder, they may have had some influence but I don't really hear it. The memory from that times dimming but we didn't call it groove metal back then it was just fuckin Pantera.
I've said it before, Chaos AD is where Sepultura found their own unique and very cool sound and I wish they had explored it more. Having said that BTR and Arise are my favorites but the roots of those album's belong to other bands and Sepultura made a decision to come up with something of their own (which I respect) by bringing hardcore punk etc into their mix to great effect. Unfortunately they went back to being followers not leaders with nu-Roots.

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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 929
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:18 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Not sure why you're lumping Chaos AD in with nu-metal. Korn wasn't out until '94 and the only "groove" metal of note around then (92/93) was Pantera and Exhorder, they may have had some influence but I don't really hear it. The memory from that times dimming but we didn't call it groove metal back then it was just fuckin Pantera.
I've said it before, Chaos AD is where Sepultura found their own unique and very cool sound and I wish they had explored it more. Having said that BTR and Arise are my favorites but the roots of those album's belong to other bands and Sepultura made a decision to come up with something of their own (which I respect) by bringing hardcore punk etc into their mix to great effect. Unfortunately they went back to being followers not leaders with nu-Roots.
Yeah, I don't hear much (if any) Pantera influence on Chaos either, certainly not when compared to an actually wannabe group like Lamb Of God, as I feel that, like pretty much every other group of old-school thrashers, Sep would've slowed things down regardless of Pantera's success, and the direction they took just happened to be groovier/more mid-tempo, while still retaining an undeniably "Sepultura" style to their sound, without severely watering it down ala The Black Album, sort of like what Megadeth was doing around that same time. That being said, while I don't like Roots 100% as much as Chaos, I do still like it, as I feel that what Pyromania was to Glam Metal, Roots was to Nu, in that it came from a mostly lame genre, but still managed to be one of the few good examples of that genre at the same time.
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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:58 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Not sure why you're lumping Chaos AD in with nu-metal. Korn wasn't out until '94 and the only "groove" metal of note around then (92/93) was Pantera and Exhorder, they may have had some influence but I don't really hear it. The memory from that times dimming but we didn't call it groove metal back then it was just fuckin Pantera.


I'm not lumping Chaos A.D. in nu-metal. What I meant when I said "with Chaos A.D. the band was starting to make a very obvious shift towards groove/nu-metal territory", was that this is what they were heading for. If anything, I should have insisted on the groove metal part a bit more, and a little less on nu-metal. But they were heading this way, and from this point in time looking back, we can say that this is what they were doing. Sepultura were influential for nu-metal, so without saying they were a nu-metal band, they definitely had influences on the genre. You probably know that Korn were influenced by Sepultura, whom they also ended up influencing afterward, which lead to the creation of Roots.

Now, for the record, I was not making a reference to nu-metal as something inherently negative. I was merely trying to point out that there was a genre shift starting to operate on Chaos A.D., and while this album is nowhere near as dumbed down and barebones nu-metal jumpdafuck shit as Roots, Chaos A.D. was still a transition album.

I hope you can understand me better with this post, haha. I've not made my point very clear earlier.

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MetlaNZ
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 857
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:37 am 
 

^All good. My post if you look back was actually directed at Kalaratri tho.

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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 929
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:36 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
^All good. My post if you look back was actually directed at Kalaratri tho.
It's all good with him as well though, as far as I'm concerned, since, while I obviously still disagree with him on mid-era Sep, I still appreciate the way that he put some actual effort into his critique of that era of the band, instead of just another repeat of the same ol' mindless "D00d, everything after Arise fucken sox!!1" type posts you see around here so often (and giving me an opportunity to explain why I like those records in the process in my responses); well done man, well done indeed.
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Kalaratri
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 am 
 

Just to clarify, I wasn't calling Chaos A.D. nu-metal in that post, I was referring to it as groove metal and Roots as a nu-metal album. Chaos A.D. might be a particularly idiosyncratic instance of groove metal compared to say Pantera, but I think it still qualifies as an instance of the subgenre. Admittedly I'm not really a fan of much groove/post-thrash stuff, but bands like Prong who were around back then did it better IMO. Not saying Sepultura sounded anything like them, but I prefer their approach.

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