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Yuli Ban
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:07 am
Posts: 175
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:11 am 
 

Here's a revival of an old thread I found:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93879

I felt it would be a decent analog to the "largest difference between best and second best songs" thread by going with albums. Predominantly from one album to the next, but comparing the whole discography is fine too for bands that have a mountainous peak surrounded by valleys filled with shit, or worse: mediocrity. A classic example being Savatage's Fight for the Rock— a cowardly album, hiding behind a thin veil of glittery satin— followed by Hall of the Mountain King, one of the most powerful of the power metal genre.

When it comes to entire discographies , just look at Ozzy Osbourne. "Blizzard of Ozz" is a fantastic classic metal album in all ways. It's not pushing any boundaries, but sometimes just being a kickass heavy metal blitz is all you need.

Then you fast forward to 2020 and you hear "Ordinary Man" and you start asking yourself "why do we even wear shoes?" Just a sad, lonely whimper of an end for a great sonic titan.

I would have bumped the original thread, but I felt it being so many years made it unsightly.
Quote:
2. Check for other recent topics on the same subject before posting a new one. Bumping old threads is generally inadvisable, but acceptable if there is a discussion on a specific topic and you have something significant to contribute to/revive the thread.

I wouldn't say this is a pressing need, just a cursory throw to see if there are any more takes to give.

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 522
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:34 am 
 

My usual answer for this in terms of consecutive albums is usually Judas Priest and their 1984 - 1990 trajectory: Defenders (in their top 3 albums), followed by Turbo (abysmal), then Ram It Down (nadir) and then the high of Painkiller (their best album).

In terms of discographies, though, I think you'll struggle to match Metallica; not many bands manage to make both Ride The Lightning and St. Anger in a career.

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InsaneSniper
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:07 am 
 

When it comes to entire discographies, I can't think of a better example than Virgin Steele. How the same band that made the godly Invictus managed to make Ghost Harvest - Vintage II is beyond me.
Spoiler: show
Their other 2018 albums were absolutely terrible as well - Vintage II somehow manages to stand out even among those.

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ChineseDownhill
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:19 am
Posts: 920
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:08 am 
 

(Not surprised this was already mentioned in the first thread.)

I share the common view that Thornography is Cradle of Filth's worst full length. If it was just a random album by a band I didn't care about, I'd say "Well at least there are some songs I like, mainly in the second half - a solid EP of good material." But COF has to be the band I spend the most time listening to. Their top tier albums (Dusk, Cruelty, Midian, Godspeed, Hammer, Cryptoriana) are 50 to 60 minutes or more that I can enjoy the whole way through. And since Godspeed immediately followed Thornography it's one of the more impressive jumps in quality between consecutive albums.

Sticking with a silly face paint theme, Carach Angren IMO peaked with their debut Lammendam (although Where the Corpses... is close). I think Dance and Laugh... is their worst. Lots of bland songs with annoying, unimaginative choruses on that album. It might even be the case that my least favorite song from Lammendam is still better than anything from Dance.
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77hjrttfred
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:15 pm
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:32 am 
 

Quote:
In terms of discographies, though, I think you'll struggle to match Metallica; not many bands manage to make both Ride The Lightning and St. Anger in a career.


That is the one that comes immediately in mind. I guess it is even worse if you include LULU.

What about Morbid Angel? It is a long way from their best to Illud Divinum Insanus.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2478
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:44 am 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
In terms of discographies, though, I think you'll struggle to match Metallica; not many bands manage to make both Ride The Lightning and St. Anger in a career.


I'm not really struggling that much. In Flames made both Colony And Battles.

In terms of the other direction, the two strongest candidates for me are Celtic Frost, where I love Monotheist much more than their others, and the same with Nightwish on Wishmaster.

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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1098
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:22 am 
 

Cryptopsy is another obvious one with the gulf between the first two and TUK. Okay, so Worship Your Demons isn't a terrible song, but thirteen years later and The Unspoken King is still dogshit overall, and absolutely did not need to be what it wound up being. The irony of trying to pander to deathcore audiences with that album is that they didn't need to - probably 60-70% of the bands that were blowing up at the time were blatantly influenced by them, and if they had just had Matt do his best DiSalvo impression and had stuck to something resembling that era and maybe thrown in a few more breakdowns (which also wouldn't have been out of character for them, they were doing chug breakdowns back during the Worm era), they would have been fine. Had they just made Whisper Supremacy 2 with the chugdown from Graves of the Fathers on more songs than usual, you could have easily fit them on a tour with Suicide Silence or Impending Doom and the kids would have eaten it up (without alienating most of the older fans) and they wouldn't have come within a hairsbreadth of irreversible career ruination. Then again, this is Flo we're talking about, he is about as close to a real-life Dethklok member as you can get and is one of the dumbest human beings I have ever met in my entire life.

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motorsport
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:48 pm
Posts: 244
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:32 am 
 

Machine Head.

It still amazes me that a band that's spent the whole rest of their career making hot trend-following, bottom-barrel garbage can churn out The Blackening.

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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1098
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:38 am 
 

motorsport wrote:
Machine Head.

It still amazes me that a band that's spent the whole rest of their career making hot trend-following, bottom-barrel garbage can churn out The Blackening.


Robb Flynn doesn't have an original thought in his head. He went from jocking Pantera and Biohazard, to jocking Soulfly and Coal Chamber, to jocking Shadows Fall and Vol. 3-era Slipknot, to jocking Trivium for close to a decade, and then back to jocking nu metal, and oh look, he's probably going back to jocking Trivium again now that they're experiencing a career resurrection after slumping a bit in the 2010s. The Blackening felt like a few good riffs that could have maybe gone on a modern Vio-lence release that you had to wade through SO much uninspired melodic metalcore dreck and shit that Matt Heafy didn't use on Ascendancy or The Crusade to get to, but for Robb, that's actually pretty damn good.

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LycanthropeMoon
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:58 am 
 

Theatre of Tragedy, "Aegis" (3rd album) to "Musique" (4th one).

"Aegis" is one of my favorite gothic doom albums of all time.
"Musique" makes me want to rip out my own eardrums. A lot of gothic metal bands seemed to want to try adding electronic elements to their music in the late 90s and early 00s. Some succeeded (I actually like "Host" by Paradise Lost) and uh... TOT did not, imo.

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Death By Wall of Text
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:18 pm
Posts: 227
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:21 pm 
 

Following something I mentioned in the Reviews subforum, Queensryche comes to mind for biggest "best to worst" disparity. The same band known for making prog metal masterpieces and a power metal powerhouse (lol) made... Dedicated to Chaos which might be the worst album I somehow dared to listen to in full.

As for two consecutive albums, Opeth from Watershed (excellent) to Heritage (not bad, but ehhhh...) was a confusing and somewhat painful drop. In a similar vein, Riverside from ADHD to Shrine...

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King_of_Arnor
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:35 pm
Posts: 150
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:18 pm 
 

Jag Panzer (Ample Destruction -> Dissident Alliance)
Discharge (Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing -> Grave New World)

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5564
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:26 pm 
 

Danzig went from the borderline perfection of their first four albums to completely shitting the bed on Blackacidevil. I do enjoy some of those albums beyond it but that was clearly a point of no return for them.
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oldmetalhead
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Posts: 229
Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:00 pm 
 

End of Ozzy era Sabbath to the Dio era. It benefited both Sabbath and Ozzy, as they both put out great material separately, after having gone completely flat on Never Say Die. Best divorce ever.

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77hjrttfred
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:15 pm
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:11 pm 
 

Quote:
Danzig went from the borderline perfection of their first four albums to completely shitting the bed on Blackacidevil. I do enjoy some of those albums beyond it but that was clearly a point of no return for them.


Great choice. I forgot about that one. I remember I was a big Danzig fan and when I got Blackacidevil I was like WTF happened here.

I never really got the full story why he fired the rest of the band. I think Danzig would have been one of the biggest acts in metal if he had not changed in such a drastic way. I like Danzig 4, it had some experimentation on it which worked well but to go to full on industrial was a strange career choice. I really lost interest in the band after that, a bit like I did will Sepultura.

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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2624
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:39 pm 
 

I'll give this more thought for the purpose of the thread, but just to get things started on my side, here are two examples, one of each, on the top of my head.

For two solid (I'd argue best in the discrography), I'll go with Gorgutswith their first and sophomore LPs, Considered Dead and The Erosion of Sanity. Although their third album Obscura seems to be the one that many consider groundbreaking, I always found that the first two are extremely solid, deeply rooted in osdm, but still experimenting a lot, namely with dissonance and jazz elements, and are overall better records than Obscura. Both are among my favorite death metal albums, but it's Erosion of Sanity that really got me hooked.

As for best to worst, I want to say Nocturnus with The Key and Thresholds. The Key is an amazing, intricate, truly unique and technically proficient record with solid songwriting. Thresholds, while it's not an horrible album by any means, is very forgettable and lacks all the magic that made the band's first album so good. The band never released truly compelling material until their reformation under the name Nocturnus A.D. and with the release of Paradox in 2019.

Edit: I think I read the thread wrong, haha. I thought we could also include solid back-to-back albums.

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Aldrahn333
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:28 pm
Posts: 259
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:14 am 
 

Once again, Sepultura wins with no contest.

Going from two jewels like Beneath the Remains and Arise to the atrocious couple of Chaos AD and Roots.

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Bishop_Drugsalot
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 am
Posts: 636
Location: Purgatory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:48 am 
 

Massacre making From Beyond and the next album being Promise, yuck.

Destruction from Eternal Devastation to The Least Successful Human Cannonball, blergh.

Omen - Battle Cry aaand then they tried Reopening the Gates, uff.

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Required Fields
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:32 pm
Posts: 908
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:36 am 
 

Bathory - Blood Fire Death to Octagon
Megadeth - Rust in Peace to Risk
Tygers of Pan Tang - Spellbound to Burning in the Shade

Some of the examples I would have mentioned I've seen mentioned by others already (Massacre, Metallica, and Queensrÿche), these were some I didn't see mentioned.

I have actually discussed the failures of some of the worse albums in a series on my YouTube channel.
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21stCenturySkippyMan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am
Posts: 6
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:21 am 
 

Sepultura and In Flames are two infamous examples. Some others...
Ulver. 3 BM/Folk Masterpieces followed by a shift into quirky electronic music. Ugh...
Raven. Wiped Out and All for One are NWOBHM/Speed Metal masterpieces which were followed by a devolution into commercial cock rock.
Buffalo. They started out making brilliant Proto-Metal/Heavy Rock in the early 70s with Dead Forever..., Volcanic Rock and Only Want You For Your Body. This was followed by a failed bid for commercial success with their next two albums on which they embraced a softer, more rock and rollsy sound. All I can say is eugh!

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Firmament1
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:40 am
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:30 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
In terms of discographies, though, I think you'll struggle to match Metallica; not many bands manage to make both Ride The Lightning and St. Anger in a career.


I'm not really struggling that much. In Flames made both Colony And Battles.

In terms of the other direction, the two strongest candidates for me are Celtic Frost, where I love Monotheist much more than their others, and the same with Nightwish on Wishmaster.

There's also Megadeth, which I thought would be obvious. Both Rust in Peace, and Risk/Super Collider.

Frank Booth wrote:
Cryptopsy is another obvious one with the gulf between the first two and TUK. Okay, so Worship Your Demons isn't a terrible song, but thirteen years later and The Unspoken King is still dogshit overall, and absolutely did not need to be what it wound up being. The irony of trying to pander to deathcore audiences with that album is that they didn't need to - probably 60-70% of the bands that were blowing up at the time were blatantly influenced by them, and if they had just had Matt do his best DiSalvo impression and had stuck to something resembling that era and maybe thrown in a few more breakdowns (which also wouldn't have been out of character for them, they were doing chug breakdowns back during the Worm era), they would have been fine. Had they just made Whisper Supremacy 2 with the chugdown from Graves of the Fathers on more songs than usual, you could have easily fit them on a tour with Suicide Silence or Impending Doom and the kids would have eaten it up (without alienating most of the older fans) and they wouldn't have come within a hairsbreadth of irreversible career ruination. Then again, this is Flo we're talking about, he is about as close to a real-life Dethklok member as you can get and is one of the dumbest human beings I have ever met in my entire life.

"The Adversary" by Thy Art is Murder is like, the prime example of Cryptopsy-influenced deathcore. Some of the solos sound really Jon Levasseur-y, and the gutturals that CJ goes for also sound pretty Lord Worm-ish. Sometimes, I wonder what would've happened if Cryptopsy had been the one to release that album instead of Thy Art is Murder.

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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 977
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:25 pm 
 

21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Sepultura and In Flames are two infamous examples.
You mean the gaps between Chaos, A.D./Against & The Jester Race/Siren Charms, or another pair?
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TadGhostal
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 1052
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:22 pm 
 

77hjrttfred wrote:
Quote:
Danzig went from the borderline perfection of their first four albums to completely shitting the bed on Blackacidevil. I do enjoy some of those albums beyond it but that was clearly a point of no return for them.


Great choice. I forgot about that one. I remember I was a big Danzig fan and when I got Blackacidevil I was like WTF happened here.

I never really got the full story why he fired the rest of the band. I think Danzig would have been one of the biggest acts in metal if he had not changed in such a drastic way. I like Danzig 4, it had some experimentation on it which worked well but to go to full on industrial was a strange career choice. I really lost interest in the band after that, a bit like I did will Sepultura.


He only really fired, or pushed out, John. He was never a fan of John's playing. Chuck quit over a contract and then Eerie quit because Chuck and John were going to be gone, although I'm sure there was more to it. Glenn has always made some perplexing choices in his career. I think that early on a lot of them worked but later (like, post-1995) most of them did not. There is some good stuff here and there, but there ss stuff that he does that is so bad it is shocking that he would put it out (like that horrible movie, "Verotika").

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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1098
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:54 pm 
 

Pretty much every single shitty thing that Glenn has ever done that has alienated people and burnt bridges can be boiled down to "Glenn is a greedy, ego-tripping douche with a valuable enough back catalog to free him from the possibility of ever facing any sort of real consequence for being a shit human being".

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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2885
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:42 pm 
 

Ulver went from great to worst and then to great again. After the Nattens madrigal they recorded Themes from William Blake which was a complete disaster and their worst album and then Perdition City which is probably my favorite one.

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Bishop_Drugsalot
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 am
Posts: 636
Location: Purgatory
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:33 am 
 

Smalley wrote:
21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Sepultura and In Flames are two infamous examples.
You mean the gaps between Chaos, A.D./Against

How much of a gap is there? The gap between Schizophrenia and Chaos A.D. is way bigger.

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1138
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:15 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
Pretty much every single shitty thing that Glenn has ever done that has alienated people and burnt bridges can be boiled down to "Glenn is a greedy, ego-tripping douche with a valuable enough back catalog to free him from the possibility of ever facing any sort of real consequence for being a shit human being".

I remember reading that he didn't want to give anyone else in the band writing credits. He's clearly an asshole in that department. I'm still forever grateful to have seen the classic lineup for the Thrall-Demonsweatlive tour.

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Required Fields
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:32 pm
Posts: 908
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:01 pm 
 

Some of the videos from my YouTube series I discussed:




Plus, my most recent upload, where I discuss Crimson Glory - Strange and Beautiful:
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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 977
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:32 pm 
 

Bishop_Drugsalot wrote:
Smalley wrote:
21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Sepultura and In Flames are two infamous examples.
You mean the gaps between Chaos, A.D./Against

How much of a gap is there? The gap between Schizophrenia and Chaos A.D. is way bigger.
Not for me; I mean, the songwriting on Schizophrenia is good, but the production/vocals are a bit on the rough side, and Chaos, A.D. has always been my favorite record from Sep, so, while the quality gap between the two isn't HUGE or anything, it's still in the opposite direction for me when it comes to those two.
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DeadKid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 317
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:36 am 
 

Not counting cruddy covers albums, the biggest disparities over an entire discography for me are either Megadeth already mentioned, or Battle Beast. Unholy Savior vs No More Hollywood Endings - the first has a perfect balance of pop influences creeping in, but the second is just too much and too tame so I start hating it.
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