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Blackheart_Sauron
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:58 am 
 

What are the key differences between, say this album: https://erdvesom.bandcamp.com/album/savigaila
and, say this album: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... yS6hNeRiXr
that make so much distinction between the two to put them into to completely separate genres (not even sub-genres)?
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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:06 am 
 

I don't know man, just listening to that Erdve album now (which incidentally absolutely rips); beyond it having loud, distorted guitars and being aggressive it doesn't have much in common with Stigmata at all. The riffs, the vocals, the drumming the songwriting style and even the production style are all pretty different (and if I'm not mistaken, the riffs don't really align with what MA considers to be a metal riff.) There's plenty of hardcore including post-hardcore out there which is super loud and distorted, but is pretty far removed from a lot of extreme metal, typically in all the ways I just mentioned. The extreme metal that sounds most like this filters in a load of influence from hardcore anyway; certainly most traditional melodeath bands like Arch Enemy are not in that lane at all.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:15 am 
 

Blackheart_Sauron wrote:
What are the key differences between, say this album: https://erdvesom.bandcamp.com/album/savigaila
and, say this album: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... yS6hNeRiXr
that make so much distinction between the two to put them into to completely separate genres (not even sub-genres)?


The two are completely different though. It's not all about distortion, harsh vocals and down-tuned guitars. Erdve is obviously much more rooted in hardcore music than it is in metal. That's not to say that both can't influence one another or that the genres are static. But the riffing style, the shouted vocals, everything in that Erdve song I listened to is hardcore.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:26 am 
 

The key difference I'd say is that there is no harmonic structure in the Erdve song. It just goes 0 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 2 ...
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Lilac Seafoam
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:55 am 
 

The line between hardcore and metal is one of the oldest and most contentious issues in the metal community so I don't think you'll find an easy answer.

Your example though, isn't compelling. If you listen to some classic hardcore, you will immediately hear that Erdve uses that style of guitar and vocal. I'm struggling to think of metal albums that they might have used as a reference or influence reaching their sound.

To be even a little less charitable though, prima facie on an objective, sonic level, those two bands sound nothing alike.

"Classification by recognition" is often regarded as gatekeeping, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg problem since more experience listening is going to make you better at picking up a band's genealogy by ear.

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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:27 pm 
 

It is a metal subgenre, the admins don't decide what is metal or not, they decide what they view is metal enough for the website

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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:19 pm 
 

It is not a metal subgenre.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:12 pm 
 

If your goal is to get Erdive on the site, maybe you want to go over here instead?: viewforum.php?f=27
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Blackheart_Sauron
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:41 pm
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Location: Ukraine
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:59 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
If your goal is to get Erdive on the site, maybe you want to go over here instead?: viewforum.php?f=27

It isn't and I know admin's won't budge.
For me it's not about Erdve (not Erdive) per se - but also about bands like Rosetta etc.

I'm trying to understand what is that important difference, which I TBH fail to see.

Now we have something to start with.

I know the albums are quite different in terms of riffs (the vocals are IMO very similar though), but so are many metal albums.
The first thing identified is harmonic structure, which Arch Enemy has. But many metal bands don't have it either - Meshuggah for instance, or Khanate.
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Vadara
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:05 pm 
 

Is that post hardcore? That just sounds like regular hardcore with better production and a slightly more metal song structure. You say "post hardcore" to me my mind immediately jumps to Dance Gavin Dance and Underoath, not, uh, that.

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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:09 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
Is that post hardcore? That just sounds like regular hardcore with better production and a slightly more metal song structure. You say "post hardcore" to me my mind immediately jumps to Dance Gavin Dance and Underoath, not, uh, that.

I wasn't sure if post belongs there, therefore it is in parenthesis.
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:24 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
Is that post hardcore? That just sounds like regular hardcore with better production and a slightly more metal song structure. You say "post hardcore" to me my mind immediately jumps to Dance Gavin Dance and Underoath, not, uh, that.

I was going to say something similar, this sounds like a metalcore/sludge/hardcore hybrid with some black metal. For me post hardcore is Fugazi, Unwound, Drive Like Jehu, etc and more modern bands like Underoath.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:35 pm 
 

I'm not terribly familiar with post-hardcore, but from the couple of songs by this band that I just heard, this doesn't sound at all like a metal band. It sounds like a more beefed up version of old school hardcore circa 1982 with a couple scant grindcore elements going on with the drumming. I don't think you could really even call this band metalcore, there isn't really anything metal going on in either the vocals, the guitar work, or even the drumming. Offshoots of punk and metal have a pretty distinct separation in terms of how they function musically, it's a big part of why there is such a thing as crossover, which is basically mixing these two otherwise disparate sounds into one hybrid sound. Hardcore, by definition, is not metal, anymore than hard rock or new wave wouldn't be considered metal, it's a separate thing with its own unique characteristics and history.
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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:53 pm 
 

NWOBHM is a separate thing with its own unique characteristics and history, but it still is a part of metal.

Quote:
there isn't really anything metal going on in either the vocals, the guitar work, or even the drumming

The vocals are exactly like on Stigmata though.
The guitars are heavy and distorted sound wise, and definitely play riffs + atmospheric passages which is very similar to metal, the drums don't do anything that isn't done in metal either (lots of doube-bass action, and first tracks basically starts with a blastbeat).

I sincerely don't get what you're talking about.
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:06 pm 
 

Blackheart_Sauron wrote:
NWOBHM is a separate thing with its own unique characteristics and history, but it still is a part of metal.


Uh, no. NWOBHM is a subset of metal, it's right in the name. When I said separate thing, it's pretty clearly implied that it's completely outside of the purview of metal history, not a distinct movement or style within metal.

Quote:
The vocals are exactly like on Stigmata though.


I'm not a moderator, but I'm guessing that Stigmata was not accepted based on the vocals. My point earlier about crossover applies here as bands with a hybrid approach tend to have elements that are not metal mixed in with parts that are.

Quote:
The guitars are heavy and distorted sound wise, and definitely play riffs + atmospheric passages which is very similar to metal, the drums don't do anything that isn't done in metal either.


Sorry, I'm not hearing it. Granted, I only listened to the first three songs, but the guitars could easily fit into an Agnostic Front song if the distortion was a bit lower, and a heavily distorted guitar sound alone doesn't make it metal, the riff work has to conform to a specific style.

Quote:
I sincerely don't get what you're talking about.


I'm not saying the album is bad or that there is anything wrong with anyone liking it, it's a question of category. The songs I heard don't sound any more metal than a typical Black Flag song, the elements just aren't there. Something being aggressive and dark doesn't necessarily make it metal.
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Last edited by hells_unicorn on Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LycanthropeMoon
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:16 pm 
 

The band you linked reminds me more of a less technical Converge or perhaps a band like The Banner than it does anything I tend to associate with post-hardcore. Sounds like some very heavy metalcore to me.

As for post-hardcore, this and this and this are absolutely 100% not metal, lol. It isn't a metal subgenre. I like a good amount of post-hardcore, but it's its own separate thing.


Last edited by LycanthropeMoon on Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:22 pm 
 

The title of your thread and the question are not the same. Post-hardcore isn't a metal subgenre because it's a subgenre of punk, not of metal. Metal and punk are two different branches that arose out of rock music, and share a lot of common characteristics like aggression, a harder sound, distorted guitars and such, and often have crossover, but are nevertheless still distinct cultures and genres. As for the specific example of Erdve, they don't really sound like a good example of anything in particular. They have a mishmash sound which takes from hardcore, post-hardcore, sludge, and black metal. I'm probably more lenient than the mods, so I might count them loosely as a sludge metal band (Rate Your Music lists them as such), but they aren't focused on notey, lower riffing the way most metal bands are. And there's a slight bit of vocal similarity with Liiva, but overall they sound very little like Arch Enemy to me.

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Vadara
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

A lot of hardcore sounds metal-ish because it turns out that when you play super fast rock-based music with heavily distorted guitars, you're going to sound similar to other genres that do that too. But there's definitely a very distinct difference between hardcore and metal. One thing I've always noticed but can't describe well due to my lack of music theory knowledge is that Hardcore loves this particular...groove that metal never uses (unless it's a hardcore fusion). Like, 0:10-:20 of this song. Once you hear that you know you're listening to pure hardcore and not metal; metalcore and deathcore don't use it that often, just completely non-metallic hardcore. Swear I hear it in every single song in the genre I listen to.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:46 pm 
 

That's a D-beat groove. Listen to the kick pattern. Discharge popularized it, crust punk (another metal-adjacent punk subgenre) sometimes makes use of it, and some of Swedish DM bands in particular employ them on occasion.


Last edited by LithoJazzoSphere on Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackheart_Sauron
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:47 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
A lot of hardcore sounds metal-ish because it turns out that when you play super fast rock-based music with heavily distorted guitars, you're going to sound similar to other genres that do that too.

AFAIK, there is only 1 genre that does that - which is metal. If hardcore goes there it ends up being metal to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Vadara wrote:
But there's definitely a very distinct difference between hardcore and metal. One thing I've always noticed but can't describe well due to my lack of music theory knowledge is that Hardcore loves this particular...groove that metal never uses (unless it's a hardcore fusion). Like, 0:10-:20 of this song. Once you hear that you know you're listening to pure hardcore and not metal; metalcore and deathcore don't use it that often, just completely non-metallic hardcore. Swear I hear it in every single song in the genre I listen to.

Whoa - that Hive song is hardcore and not metal too? Ok...
I guess hardcore bands may use this kind of rhythmic pattern often, but I bet some metal bands use it as well.
Let me think of some examples though.

Also does Erdve or Rosetta use it? I don't quite remember hearing that pattern in any of their stuff.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:53 pm 
 

Blackheart_Sauron wrote:
Vadara wrote:
A lot of hardcore sounds metal-ish because it turns out that when you play super fast rock-based music with heavily distorted guitars, you're going to sound similar to other genres that do that too.

AFAIK, there is only 1 genre that does that - which is metal. If hardcore goes there it ends up being metal to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Hard rock does that too, and the line between it and metal can get incredibly blurry. The edges of each genre tend to bleed over into each other, which is what makes these sort of discussions so frequent, and everyone draws the lines demarcating them a little differently.

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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
Hardcore loves this particular...groove that metal never uses (unless it's a hardcore fusion). Like, 0:10-:20 of this song. Once you hear that you know you're listening to pure hardcore and not metal


LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That's a D-beat groove. Listen to the kick pattern. Discharge popularized it, crust punk (another metal-adjacent punk subgenre) sometimes makes use of it, and some of Swedish DM bands in particular employ them on occasion.


I know it's not exactly the same groove, but even Slayer "War Ensemble" has a very similar part (0:28) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqnC54vbUbU
There are probably much closer sounding parts in other bands, but I'm still trying to remember
But this one - this is Slayer for f's sake, nobody will doubt them being metal even though they used this pattern.
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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:06 pm 
 

These guys seem to use that pattern as well, or at least rhythms quite alike to it
HELLCRAWLER "Sandstorm Chronicles" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTzYoN4Zgo0

They're classified as Death'n'roll/crust by MA though
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Last edited by Blackheart_Sauron on Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:08 pm 
 

Another example: Downwinder s/t - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doeqK1Vgz3Y
These guys use such rhythm a lot
Classified by MA as death metal / crust
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 pm 
 

The guitar riff in "War Ensemble" definitely has a similar rhythmic propulsion to it, but the drumming is more of the normal thrash variety. Remember that thrash itself though is a hybrid of NWOBHM and hardcore punk, with some bands having more overt punk influences than others. Slayer was certainly one of them, even having a whole album of punk covers later on.

There's plenty of punky, D-beat influenced DM around. Here's a variation.


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Blackheart_Sauron
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:03 am 
 

Quote:
Remember that thrash itself though is a hybrid of NWOBHM and hardcore punk

So the hardcore and metal do have a common history then

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
There's plenty of punky, D-beat influenced DM around. Here's a variation.
Spoiler: show

Yes, great example of metal that borrows d-beat rhythm section when appropriate - but still remains metal
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:06 am 
 

For those who decide whats metal at MA, I salute you.

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thewrll
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:29 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
For those who decide whats metal at MA, I salute you.


Agree, we get people who can't accept what makes metal metal to the mods, they control the acceptance button.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:38 pm 
 

Blackheart_Sauron wrote:
Quote:
Remember that thrash itself though is a hybrid of NWOBHM and hardcore punk

So the hardcore and metal do have a common history then

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
There's plenty of punky, D-beat influenced DM around. Here's a variation.
Spoiler: show

Yes, great example of metal that borrows d-beat rhythm section when appropriate - but still remains metal


I think the impasse here is less a matter of metal vs. non-metal and more a matter of applying logic. Let me try approaching this from a more abstract standpoint.

A = Metal
B = Punk/Hardcore
A =/= B
A + B = Thrash/Crossover

Therefore:

The fact that A + B = Thrash/Crossover, does not mean that A=B

You can bring in other elements from outside metal to modify it, however, that does not magically make the outside element metal in itself, since it began outside of metal and ceases to be metal once taken outside of a metal context. The logic that you are running with here would lead to MA having to add The Ramones and The Sex Pistols because during the 80s a few thrash metal bands claimed them as influences and covered some of their songs.
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Rottir
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:35 am 
 

Drive-by chirp to remind people that scene provenance plays almost as big a role in the hardcore vs metal distinction as the actual music.

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Evil_Obsidian
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:43 am 
 

Because it's a hardcore sub-genre.

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:19 am 
 

Evil_Obsidian wrote:
Because it's a hardcore sub-genre.


This.

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MacMoney
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:50 pm 
 

Rottir wrote:
Drive-by chirp to remind people that scene provenance plays almost as big a role in the hardcore vs metal distinction as the actual music.


No. If it plays a role on how you view it, then sure, but no.

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Rottir
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:39 am 
 

MacMoney wrote:
Rottir wrote:
Drive-by chirp to remind people that scene provenance plays almost as big a role in the hardcore vs metal distinction as the actual music.


No. If it plays a role on how you view it, then sure, but no.


Absolutely scene provenance plays a role. It's laughable to think it doesn't. Entire sub-genres of music like emo are predicated on this principle, and it's especially relevant when it comes to hardcore and metal.

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Vadara
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

Yeah, bands like As I Lay Dying (and their atthegates-core contemporaries) are to be frank like 90% metal if you objectively measure their music, but they're still not considered metal bands.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:47 pm 
 

AILD has a page here though. As do Darkest Hour, Killswitch Engage and others. Huh, I could swear The Human Abstract was absent, but they seem to have a page here as well.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:15 pm 
 

I've noticed in recent years that more metal leaning metalcore bands have been increasingly acknowledged as indeed more metal than hardcore. It kinda started a couple years ago with the addition of Integrity. Examples would be bands like Catharsis and Empathy
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Empathy/3540478207
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Ca ... 3540479698

Deadguy also have been added and I think they overdid it a bit with adding them but they are very borderline. It's sort of late acknowledge of how metal that era of metalcore was.

Metalcore should be compared perhaps with how we inherit traits from our ancestors. Some kids in a family don't resemble their parents all that much and other kids do. However even adopted kids will take over elements from their parents even if they aren't genetically related to either parents. This is exactly what happens with not only hardcore bands but also music from other genres such as grunge or breakcore.
The thing is the approach here on MA and a large part of the metal community is to focus on that genetic aspect of shared kinship not so much on the more fluid cultural aspects of music. Basically the nurture vs nature debate applied to music. The nature part being the music theory side of heavy metal and not the nurture of how it sounds or is dressed up.

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The_Apex_of_Collapse
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:38 pm 
 

Remember that as far as NWOBHM goes, the Hardcore punk in that area at the time was also catchy, and pretty melodic in nature so blended seamlessly with that late 70's hardrock sound turned up to 11 that made NWOBHM what it was. Different scenes had a more aggressive 'angry' style of hardcore that had a more lasting impression on the future of hardcore punk, and helped trigger more extreme examples of the music even influencing more extreme genres of metal.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
The thing is the approach here on MA and a large part of the metal community is to focus on that genetic aspect of shared kinship not so much on the more fluid cultural aspects of music. Basically the nurture vs nature debate applied to music. The nature part being the music theory side of heavy metal and not the nurture of how it sounds or is dressed up.


Yeah, I tend to agree. We're so laser-focused on the idea of guitar riffs, and it's probably the easiest overall way to try and establish boundaries, but it's not a perfect solution. I personally have a bit broader definition of metal than the site does, and the production and aesthetics of the sonic presentation would factor into it. Honestly I think decisions on the site even factor it to a greater degree than they would admit. The line between hard rock and metal is particularly razor-thin at times, and I suspect a good chunk of hard rock bands would be counted here if they were covered note for note by some random band, but with a beefier production style. And the reverse, you could take some thrash and black metal albums, do absolutely nothing to them except switch the guitar channel to clean, and they'd probably be classified as really aggressive surf rock rather than metal.

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oldmetalhead
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:13 am 
 

Just going to say, getting some very interesting perspective from this thread. Not changing my mind or my ears, as to what I hear and classify something but especially talking about tuning/tone/etc is something I want to look into to.

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