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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Yeah but as someone who has studied Gothic literature I still think the link between Gothic literature and art of the 18th and 19th centuries is quite strong in its' relation to Goth rock and goth metal.

Sure, it gets stretched, but, for example, when I first heard Type O Negative as a teenager and Bloody Kisses I remember getting such a clear and addictive dark vibe from songs like Christian Woman and Black Number One and on a personal level getting the feeling of old dark churches and graveyards and medieval castles and then you look on the insert of Bloody Kisses and you see Pete Steele and the band posing outside some kind of church graveyard or something and the link is so clear...I just think his way of saying that "viking metal" doesn't make sense to him in the same way that Goth rock doesn't is just a bad comparison cause as someone who has read a lot of Gothic fiction and even spent time in Gothic churches in Europe as well as their graveyards I can see the link there easily.


This just seems like a conversation where each of us has our our fascination angle with it that doesn't necessarily direct intersect with everyone else's, and while I haven't given a ton of thought to viking metal, the parallels in historical derivation and modern applicability with goth-derived terminology is intriguing. Over the years I've been trying to figure out how people managed to associate say, Evanescence, with the gothic scene in the 00s, and how much aesthetic and lyrical themes come into play aside from musical ones. It's turned into an internal game where I try and find the line where something starts being accepted as "gothic metal". If there are say, hypothetically 37 traits more common to gothic music, how many do you need to fit? One band might have 18 of them and fall short, but another band has 19 and "counts". Evanescence probably has more than the average rock band, but likely not really enough to be grouped with more overtly gothic artists. Something similar might manifest with viking metal, I just haven't look into it that much.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:48 pm 
 

Amerigo wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
To me it only matters because lyrical content alone should not equal a sub-genre, and while some people say they hear enough differences in Viking metal for it to be a separate sub-genre, me personally I don't.

Some of it like Amon Amarth is more melodic death, and I'd also say Tyr is a bit on the further spectrum between Melodic death and folk metal mixed, but I could see the argument for them.

Other bands are folk-metal with the viking lyrics, or even black metal with viking lyrics like Enslaved.

It's hard to even see how you can use the term because then you'd want to put Amon Amarth and Enslaved in the same category when the former is clearly melo-death related and Enslaved is definitely black metal.

First of all, you're using examples that aren't even classified as viking metal on this site. Amon Amarth and Tyr aren't listed as viking metal and Enslaved is classified as Progressive Black/Viking Metal. Take a more prototypical viking metal example like Einherjer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq1RFFfNGqQ. What else is it but viking metal? Sure you could say it's like 5 different genres, but you could literally do that with any given subgenre.

Quote:
I'm still going to strongly disagree with you on the Goth term.
Yes, there's a huge leap between the Goth tribe and Goth music, but there's just as huge a leap between the Gothic literary/art/architecture movement as and the tribe.

I'm not claiming that goth rock has nothing to do with gothic literature and I never did. My entire point is about the original use of both terms, since that was the objection towards viking metal raised by Grave. In both cases, we're talking about people that lived (approximately) over a thousand years ago. The hell does Gothic architecture have to do with the Germanic peoples? How is it that Dracula has something to do with some sword-wielding warrior wearing a sheepskin making fun of Romans for wearing togas? It all came out of a popular consciousness that made erroneous assumptions about what the historic Goths were actually like--this notion that they were savages, destroyers of civilization, etc, discounting the fact that they lived alongside the Roman empire, served in Roman armies, and many wanted full citizenship rights.

Well, we have very similar parallels with vikings. The viking is mostly an artifact of mythmaking and romaniticization of the noble savage, with very scarce basis in factual history. The overwhelming majority of people don't care what vikings were actually like. They are just projecting some idea of what they want them to be like.



Well as far as viking metal, I'm still not sold on it being entirely its' own sub-genre, but you are kind of right that bands like Einherjer do have a unique sound so if I heard more examples of bands like that maybe I could be convinced.

I just really don't think the analogy your making with Goths is a good one because like I said, while I don't have clear understanding where the link originally came between the Germanic tribe and the literature/architecture, the term "goth" hasn't been used for that tribe for like 1,000 years and there IS a very clear link between the literature/architecture and Goth music, so it's not at all unusual that bands like that would call themselves "Goth" in reference to the artistic movement.

I mean i get what you are trying to say, I just think you could have used a different comparison that might have worked better.

But honestly, if we are to assume that viking metal is a real thing then I don't think it would really matter at all if it had any connection to what kind of music vikings might have listened to or played.

The names of sub-genres aren't necessarily all that important IMO nor are they always perfect descriptors for what the music sounds like. So if there's a unique sound for the music we are calling "viking metal", like Einherjer (and I guess I can hear it with a band like that) then if it's about viking themes, at least initially, then over time even if they shifted lyrical content I'm not so sure how much it would matter if there was an established sound that we came to understand as going along with that style.

I mean most of the names of sub-genres really don't describe what the music sounds like anyway. Black, death, grindcore, etc....none of that is very descriptive. Sludge and Doom do a fairly good job, as does thrash, but really, I wouldn't place so much emphasis on a name.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:54 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Yeah but as someone who has studied Gothic literature I still think the link between Gothic literature and art of the 18th and 19th centuries is quite strong in its' relation to Goth rock and goth metal.

Sure, it gets stretched, but, for example, when I first heard Type O Negative as a teenager and Bloody Kisses I remember getting such a clear and addictive dark vibe from songs like Christian Woman and Black Number One and on a personal level getting the feeling of old dark churches and graveyards and medieval castles and then you look on the insert of Bloody Kisses and you see Pete Steele and the band posing outside some kind of church graveyard or something and the link is so clear...I just think his way of saying that "viking metal" doesn't make sense to him in the same way that Goth rock doesn't is just a bad comparison cause as someone who has read a lot of Gothic fiction and even spent time in Gothic churches in Europe as well as their graveyards I can see the link there easily.


This just seems like a conversation where each of us has our our fascination angle with it that doesn't necessarily direct intersect with everyone else's, and while I haven't given a ton of thought to viking metal, the parallels in historical derivation and modern applicability with goth-derived terminology is intriguing. Over the years I've been trying to figure out how people managed to associate say, Evanescence, with the gothic scene in the 00s, and how much aesthetic and lyrical themes come into play aside from musical ones. It's turned into an internal game where I try and find the line where something starts being accepted as "gothic metal". If there are say, hypothetically 37 traits more common to gothic music, how many do you need to fit? One band might have 18 of them and fall short, but another band has 19 and "counts". Evanescence probably has more than the average rock band, but likely not really enough to be grouped with more overtly gothic artists. Something similar might manifest with viking metal, I just haven't look into it that much.


Yeah, I never even really listened to Evanescence. Most of the goth i like are goth rock groups that aren't even metal like Sisters of Mercy, Rosetta Stone, Mission U.K., Joy Division, Christian Death, etc or if its' metal than I honestly don't listen to much Goth metal other than Type O Negative or some people would consider Fall of the Leafe who I love to be goth metal.

I guess it gets kind of crazy intellectual in the end.

But then there is also the thing when it comes to not just "viking" metal but medieval sounding metal like Turisas (I guess maybe they might be viking metal, not sure?....)

I remember listening to one of their albums and their were these parts that had very epic medieval sounding wind instruments, like various kinds of trumpets or whatever that I think might have been played during jousts and stuff like that, and to tell you the truth I think there could be some honest link between what some of these bands do and some of the music that may have been played in medieval Europe and times and places like that.

I mean while i don't think we have any idea what the vikings listened to or what instruments they played, I am pretty sure we do have some historical examples of classical and folk music played in different parts of Europe during time periods like the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, etc, and I think its' possible that some of these bands could be playing off those ideas.

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Amerigo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:09 pm 
 

Quote:
But honestly, if we are to assume that viking metal is a real thing then I don't think it would really matter at all if it had any connection to what kind of music vikings might have listened to or played.

Yes! Exactly this!!

And I'm not sure what other, better comparison describes a musical genre that takes the name from a long dead people, but has no connection to the music those people originally made.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:21 pm 
 

Lyrici17 wrote:
I don't really see why it matters how a genre/sub-genre arrived at its name. Stuff like Bathory's "Hammerheart" is referred to as Viking metal (like literally here on MA -- though the tag is not directly attributed to any albums). When people use the term, I can probably generally understand what they are talking about. So how the genre/sub-genre originated its name and whether or not it is accurate is moot to me.


I agree with you, but somehow, because vikings and mythology are common themes beyond the actual viking metal subgenre, people get confused. Just a few posts back you have Ill-Starred-Son saying that viking metal just like pirate metal isn't a real genre. So the confusion is pretty real here. Pirate metal is nothing but epic folk with pirate themes, while viking metal is a real genre, with traits that define it and albums that fit the genre.

All this discussion spawned from a talk about Amon Amarth and people refering to them, again wrongfuly, as viking metal even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the genre. It baffles me that this still gets mixed up.

I mean, people don't think of black metal bands with death themed lyrics as death metal. This is exactly the same thing here Amon Amarth is not a viking metal band.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:00 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Lyrici17 wrote:
I don't really see why it matters how a genre/sub-genre arrived at its name. Stuff like Bathory's "Hammerheart" is referred to as Viking metal (like literally here on MA -- though the tag is not directly attributed to any albums). When people use the term, I can probably generally understand what they are talking about. So how the genre/sub-genre originated its name and whether or not it is accurate is moot to me.


I agree with you, but somehow, because vikings and mythology are common themes beyond the actual viking metal subgenre, people get confused. Just a few posts back you have Ill-Starred-Son saying that viking metal just like pirate metal isn't a real genre. So the confusion is pretty real here. Pirate metal is nothing but epic folk with pirate themes, while viking metal is a real genre, with traits that define it and albums that fit the genre.

All this discussion spawned from a talk about Amon Amarth and people refering to them, again wrongfuly, as viking metal even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the genre. It baffles me that this still gets mixed up.

I mean, people don't think of black metal bands with death themed lyrics as death metal. This is exactly the same thing here Amon Amarth is not a viking metal band.



I guess I just go back and forth as to whether or not it's a real genre and I'm honestly not sure because it depends on what is really necessary to define a genre

I probably don't recognize it as much because I'm not sure how many bands that would REALLY count as viking metal that i listen to so I might need to be further immersed, but I mean, I like all of the following: Ensiferum (really melo-death but it has viking themes) Tyr, Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Turisas, Moonsorrrow, Einherjer, Enslaved, and those are the most obvious bands that come to mind for me.

So like, other than a band like Einherjer who does truly have a different sound, what would some other examples of real "viking metal" be that ISN'T either melo-death, black metal with viking themes or folk metal?

I could probably be convinced it's a sub genre, but not on the level of the usual ones like death, black, thrash, etc...maybe more like a sub-sub-genre.

It's much more niche than the others and I'd need to be convinced it truly SOUNDS different and that lyrics aren't of much importance because lyrical content can't define a genre.

But yeah, maybe it might be one...I guess it's still kind of up for debate

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Lyrici17 wrote:
I don't really see why it matters how a genre/sub-genre arrived at its name. Stuff like Bathory's "Hammerheart" is referred to as Viking metal (like literally here on MA -- though the tag is not directly attributed to any albums). When people use the term, I can probably generally understand what they are talking about. So how the genre/sub-genre originated its name and whether or not it is accurate is moot to me.


I agree with you, but somehow, because vikings and mythology are common themes beyond the actual viking metal subgenre, people get confused. Just a few posts back you have Ill-Starred-Son saying that viking metal just like pirate metal isn't a real genre. So the confusion is pretty real here. Pirate metal is nothing but epic folk with pirate themes, while viking metal is a real genre, with traits that define it and albums that fit the genre.

All this discussion spawned from a talk about Amon Amarth and people refering to them, again wrongfuly, as viking metal even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the genre. It baffles me that this still gets mixed up.

I mean, people don't think of black metal bands with death themed lyrics as death metal. This is exactly the same thing here Amon Amarth is not a viking metal band.



I guess I just go back and forth as to whether or not it's a real genre and I'm honestly not sure because it depends on what is really necessary to define a genre

I probably don't recognize it as much because I'm not sure how many bands that would REALLY count as viking metal that i listen to so I might need to be further immersed, but I mean, I like all of the following: Ensiferum (really melo-death but it has viking themes) Tyr, Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Turisas, Moonsorrrow, Einherjer, Enslaved, and those are the most obvious bands that come to mind for me.

So like, other than a band like Einherjer who does truly have a different sound, what would some other examples of real "viking metal" be that ISN'T either melo-death, black metal with viking themes or folk metal?

I could probably be convinced it's a sub genre, but not on the level of the usual ones like death, black, thrash, etc...maybe more like a sub-sub-genre.

It's much more niche than the others and I'd need to be convinced it truly SOUNDS different and that lyrics aren't of much importance because lyrical content can't define a genre.

But yeah, maybe it might be one...I guess it's still kind of up for debate


I see what you mean when saying it's a very niche genre if we start from Bathory and try to see which bands fit the genre, as it's definitely not as broad a genre as death, thrash or black metal. That's also kind of why I was always on the fence as to if we should consider it a genre of it's own or not.

But even with this ongoing debate, I think we shouldn't add to the confusion by describing Amon Amarth as viking metal, as they definitely belong to other subgenres. I can see someone aruing that Ensiferum might fit as they have some folk and power metal elements mixed with their melodeath, but I don't see how Amon Amarth fits in there.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:37 pm 
 

So a litmus test for me would be something like, let's take a "viking metal" band and change all of the lyrics and artwork around to a California surfer dude theme, but keep everything about the music itself exactly the same. It is still viking metal now? If so, what musical attributes are there that differentiate it from just calling it epic folk metal?

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:04 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So a litmus test for me would be something like, let's take a "viking metal" band and change all of the lyrics and artwork around to a California surfer dude theme, but keep everything about the music itself exactly the same. It is still viking metal now? If so, what musical attributes are there that differentiate it from just calling it epic folk metal?


I know what you mean, and I tend to agree. But I guess that, in some specific contexts, the music AND lyrical themes are both distinctive traits of the genre. Like, would you call Xasthur "depressive" black metal if it sounded exactly the same but with lyrics about how beautiful life is, butterflies and going to the farmer's market with your girlfriend?

I guess some genres just kind of traditionnally have both the lyrical themes and the musical elements, so it's not really an issue. Like there aren't really all that many stoner metal bands with lyrics about how drugs are bad for you and you shouldn't take them, so it's not really an issue. But we aren't about to call every band that makes lyrical references to drugs "stoner" metal just because of the themes. Stoner metal is both a sound and a theme, and typically you have both at the same time.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:57 am 
 

I can't say my DSBM listening is really extensive enough, but I'm inclined to say I still would call them that. It might come across as satire if it had people dancing through a field of flowers in the sun on the cover and twee song titles and such, but given the often unintelligibility of harsh vocals and digital audio files where you might not even see the artwork, you could potentially be none the wiser. But the incongruity is probably part of why Sunbather was controversial upon release (though their music has differences from stereotypical BM as well).

And (not to say our site is the be-all-end-all of metal classification by any means) we have separate sections on bands' pages for lyrical themes separate from the musical genre. And we do have a subgenre tag for viking metal, as do some other sites like Rate Your Music. I'm just not so sure it's really a separate "musical" subgenre as much as it is a conceptual and thematic focus. For the same reason I've never liked the "Christian rock" or "unblack metal" tags, because while there are on average also subcultural differences in those groupings of bands, it's still not a difference based on the music itself. There is plenty of music with lyrics pertinent to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and such, but they don't seem to get their own subgenres.

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~Guest 285196
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:41 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So a litmus test for me would be something like, let's take a "viking metal" band and change all of the lyrics and artwork around to a California surfer dude theme, but keep everything about the music itself exactly the same. It is still viking metal now? If so, what musical attributes are there that differentiate it from just calling it epic folk metal?

It doesn't need to have folk influence at all, at least not explicitly. Take this Falkenbach song as an example of a "pure viking metal". Mid paced stomping drums, riffs clearly inspired by Bathory and synth lines to make it more epic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaRwpS0REW0

Also, regarding the debate about historical authenticity, I have never in my life heard someone who thought that viking metal is somehow based on historical viking age music. Viking metal is 100% rooted in modern conception of the viking age, informed by the romanticism of the 19th century and subsequent revival periods. Richard Wagner probably influences viking metal more than any archaeological site.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:38 am 
 

raumr wrote:
Also, regarding the debate about historical authenticity, I have never in my life heard someone who thought that viking metal is somehow based on historical viking age music. Viking metal is 100% rooted in modern conception of the viking age, informed by the romanticism of the 19th century and subsequent revival periods. Richard Wagner probably influences viking metal more than any archaeological site.

This was my point from the very beginning. Viking metal is (usually) based on modern misconceptions and Hollywood clichés about Viking culture and not a real deep study on Nordic folk music and culture. Now, I'm not saying it should be historically accurate but in my opinion a lot of it is intellectually dishonest and, as some other people have already mentioned, not really that far from pirate metal or whatever. Sure, Viking metal is a bit more well defined from a musical perspective but in the end the subgenre usually boils down to a thematic gimmick not really that different from Pirate metal or other lyric/theme-centered subgenres that I really don't think are fully formed.

In my opinion, viking metal is in itself contradictory. On the one hand, it deals with heavy themes of heritage, history and particularly an interest in "ancestral roots" (mostly pre-Christian heritage) but on the other hand it's just a romanticization of what the modern conception of the viking age is.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find most viking metal to be really really cheap.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:19 am 
 

This has been a strange conversation. Viking metal is a legit genre, rooted in the specific style of music you find in Bathory's "Blood Fire Death", "Hammerheart", and "Twilight of the Gods" albums. A large component to the genre is the song-writing, the way albums tend to tell or frame a story, the choice and use of instruments, and the overall thematic structure of the music. Listen to enough of it and you can hear the similarities there that go beyond just "singing about Vikings." It's unfortunate, like so many other genres that layman views on it have been warped to be that anything Viking-related constitutes Viking metal, when that's only a half-truth meant to satisfy certain bands and their fans. Amon Amarth is a classic example of this. It's not Viking metal; it's just melodeath with lyrical themes about Vikings, but some people insist otherwise and their popularity means that's a commonly accepted idea now. It's not anymore Viking metal than Evanescence is gothic metal, which is sadly a thing.

The historical authenticity argument is also very silly. On the one hand, the argument that Viking metal is rooted in Hollywood clichés is inflated, since many bands do tend to do at least some due diligence and much of what most people know about Viking culture isn't terribly inaccurate in the first place. It's romanticized for sure, but as someone who has studied it, modern beliefs and views towards Vikings has more seeds of truth than lies to it. You can fault bands for being superficial, but I wouldn't fault them for not being expert scholars on Viking culture; that might cheapen the music for you, but that's musicians in a nutshell. And, on the other hand, as far as music goes I don't know what anyone would expect there. Metal music has a pretty uniform structure to it, which is itself based on the legacies of numerous other cultures, so the only hope you can have of adapting Viking-era music would be to utilize instruments or sounds from that era... but ultimately, the music would still be rooted in guitar-based riffs with all the expectations that come from that.
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Amerigo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:53 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So a litmus test for me would be something like, let's take a "viking metal" band and change all of the lyrics and artwork around to a California surfer dude theme, but keep everything about the music itself exactly the same. It is still viking metal now? If so, what musical attributes are there that differentiate it from just calling it epic folk metal?

Weird that you mention this, because the band that I brought up as a crystal-clear example of viking metal, Einherjer, has a song called "West Coast Groove" (though admittedly it does have references to vikings in the lyrics; it's structured as a kind of their take on a stadium-rock anthem). But the larger point is that they do have songs with lyrics that don't explicitly refer to vikings at all. Like "Stars"--the lyrics could be interpreted as almost astrological, but the music is still very much viking metal.

Spoiler: show
Stars
In the night sky
In the darkness
For eternity

Echoes
From the distant past
As timeless
As infinity

Constant
Ceaseless

Paint the skies
With scattered sparks
All like fire
In perfect arcs

Constant
Ceaseless
Enduring
Steadfast

Guidance from afar
On the canvas of the night
In a symphony of stars
Guidance from afar
From the north of the night
In a symphony of stars

Pure black
Crystal clear
Behind the lights
Across the skies

High above
The dying night
In the twilight
The dawning light

Constant
Ceaseless
Enduring
Steadfast

Guidance from afar
On the canvas of the night
In a symphony of stars
Guidance from afar
From the north of the night
In a symphony of stars


A band like Einherjer doesn't use any panflutes or lutes or what have you, nor do they have a lot of obviously recognizable folk melodies. So I'm not sure how you can call a song like this epic folk metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4g2VYTdfsM
Most straight-up viking metal bands are actually very sparing in their use of folk music. Not that it doesn't happen, it's just folk music is not the central focus of a viking metal song.

What's really confusing this conversation is that a lot of bands that are listed on the archives as not "viking metal" but something else are being trotted out as examples of viking metal because they sing about vikings. Tyr isn't viking metal. Ensiferum isn't viking metal. Amon Amarth is definitely not viking metal. (And this is not just my opinion, but the consensus decision of the Archives.)
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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:48 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
This has been a strange conversation. Viking metal is a legit genre, rooted in the specific style of music you find in Bathory's "Blood Fire Death", "Hammerheart", and "Twilight of the Gods" albums.


I don't mean to be smarmy, this question is coming purely from ignorance about both viking metal and Bathory:

If the Nordland albums aren't viking metal, then what subgenre are they?

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:14 am 
 

Ah yeah, I didn't mean those were the only Viking metal albums from Bathory. The Nordland albums and "Blood on Ice" qualify as Viking metal, too.
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Napalm_Satan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:32 pm 
 

I get what people are saying about viking metal but I think it is musically distinct and well-defined enough to not just be a subgenre based on lyrical themes, but its own subgenre outright. Rooted in black, folk, maybe some heavy or power metal? Sure, but it still forms its own distinct sound. Calling Twilight of the Gods 'black metal' or 'black/folk/heavy metal' doesn't sound or feel right.

The lyrical quality varies by band of course; not all of them will be super historically accurate, and that's fine. My point is that the lyrics do not make the genre alone, so that isn't a factor when wondering about the label's legitimacy as a subgenre.
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:45 pm 
 

I think the bigger problem with the viking metal genre is that the name gives a false impression. With such a name, people will inevitably associate Ensiferum and Amon Amarth with the term, and they would be likely to classify an album sounding like proper viking metal as something else if the lyrical themes aren't viking related.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:32 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
I think the bigger problem with the viking metal genre is that the name gives a false impression. With such a name, people will inevitably associate Ensiferum and Amon Amarth with the term, and they would be likely to classify an album sounding like proper viking metal as something else if the lyrical themes aren't viking related.


The same could be said about genres like death metal or doom metal, but outside of casuals and people who don't know metal music, nobody thinks that death metal is all metal that deals with death related themes or that doom metal necessarly deals with the end of times.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:33 am 
 

Bought a copy of Sphynx by Melechesh from Osmose recently, and damn it's an absolute crusher of an album! Very solid album, definitely some of their best work - I like the somewhat heavier direction it has compared to some other records of theirs (which are also great) - it has some of their best groove moments overall, like the end of Of Mercury And Mercury. Glad I finally got around to this one, and it's good to see it placed on this list - even if it was quite low compared to Emissaries.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:56 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Bought a copy of Sphynx by Melechesh from Osmose recently, and damn it's an absolute crusher of an album! Very solid album, definitely some of their best work - I like the somewhat heavier direction it has compared to some other records of theirs (which are also great) - it has some of their best groove moments overall, like the end of Of Mercury And Mercury. Glad I finally got around to this one, and it's good to see it placed on this list - even if it was quite low compared to Emissaries.


Yeah they suffered from vote splitting. I'd imagined everyone would rally behind Emissaries but Sphynx is indeed VERY good. I think only Morrigan and I had Melechesh as first place.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:57 am 
 

I haven't heard Emissaries in ages, but I remember always liking Sphynx and Epigenesis better on the whole - the former had better production for my taste and the latter more expansive writing. But they're pretty damn consistent.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:22 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Bought a copy of Sphynx by Melechesh from Osmose recently, and damn it's an absolute crusher of an album! Very solid album, definitely some of their best work - I like the somewhat heavier direction it has compared to some other records of theirs (which are also great) - it has some of their best groove moments overall, like the end of Of Mercury And Mercury. Glad I finally got around to this one, and it's good to see it placed on this list - even if it was quite low compared to Emissaries.


Yeah they suffered from vote splitting. I'd imagined everyone would rally behind Emissaries but Sphynx is indeed VERY good. I think only Morrigan and I had Melechesh as first place.


Yeah I can see that happening especially when both records from that decade were top notch.

Empyreal wrote:
I haven't heard Emissaries in ages, but I remember always liking Sphynx and Epigenesis better on the whole - the former had better production for my taste and the latter more expansive writing. But they're pretty damn consistent.


One thing that Emissaries definitely has going for it is that it has a lot more of Melechesh's faster, violent and blasty moments than the other records do which is a huge plus for me. I think because my first exposure to the Melechesh was "Rebirth Of The Nemesis" (which I'm sure was most people's first for them), my initial perception of them was skewed and I thought they always did shit like that. Those parts are absolutely goddamn savage, so I always like hearing that from them because they're just SO FUCKING GOOD.

But when I got The Epigenesis later, I remember liking it but wishing there was more variance in tempo as I wasn't expecting it to be as groovy as it was. By time I got around to Sphynx I was expecting that a much more, so there were less surprises and I just took it for what it is - which is still a heavy as fuck record. I've recently revisited The Epigenesis as well, and appreciate it much more than I used to.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:44 am 
 

I was also expecting Melechesh to get better results in this poll. I'll have to revisit some of their albums. For the time being, this poll has made me rediscover Primordial. I had forgotten just how amazing they are. I'll keep looking through the albums that ranked well, and maybe have a look at the top spots in the rando corner. I might end up finding some gems I missed.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:27 am 
 

Finally listening to 'To The Nameless Dead' by Primordial, and god damn - fucking killer album! No wonder it got as much praise as it did. Up to now the only full length I've heard was Redemption At The Puritan's Hand, which I got as a partial blind-buy. I thought it was good, but didn't really stay with me (though perhaps I need to revisit it). This one's leaving a stronger impression for sure.

On a related note, I gotta admit that as a casual listener of the band before this, I didn't know that A.A. Nemtheanga actually screamed too! :lol: I thought he just sang the whole time and that the black metal tag came from the music. I dig the shit out of his singing voice for sure, but hearing some screams is a nice way to keep some hefty variety in the vocals. Overall solid album and definitely revisiting this! The Gathering Wilderness is next on the list, as well as revisiting my Redemption CD.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:40 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Finally listening to 'To The Nameless Dead' by Primordial, and god damn - fucking killer album! No wonder it got as much praise as it did. Up to now the only full length I've heard was Redemption At The Puritan's Hand, which I got as a partial blind-buy. I thought it was good, but didn't really stay with me (though perhaps I need to revisit it). This one's leaving a stronger impression for sure.

On a related note, I gotta admit that as a casual listener of the band before this, I didn't know that A.A. Nemtheanga actually screamed too! :lol: I thought he just sang the whole time and that the black metal tag came from the music. I dig the shit out of his singing voice for sure, but hearing some screams is a nice way to keep some hefty variety in the vocals. Overall solid album and definitely revisiting this! The Gathering Wilderness is next on the list, as well as revisiting my Redemption CD.



Yeah AA is a pretty varied vocalist in the subtlest, coolest ways. He screams plenty on the "Indoctrine" record which is a concept album from the perspective of a suicide bomber by Blood Revolt, a project with him and J. Read/Chris Ross of Axis of Advance and Revenge. Did you ever hear it?
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Bishop_Drugsalot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:46 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Finally listening to 'To The Nameless Dead' by Primordial, and god damn - fucking killer album! No wonder it got as much praise as it did. Up to now the only full length I've heard was Redemption At The Puritan's Hand, which I got as a partial blind-buy. I thought it was good, but didn't really stay with me (though perhaps I need to revisit it). This one's leaving a stronger impression for sure.

On a related note, I gotta admit that as a casual listener of the band before this, I didn't know that A.A. Nemtheanga actually screamed too! :lol: I thought he just sang the whole time and that the black metal tag came from the music. I dig the shit out of his singing voice for sure, but hearing some screams is a nice way to keep some hefty variety in the vocals. Overall solid album and definitely revisiting this! The Gathering Wilderness is next on the list, as well as revisiting my Redemption CD.



Yeah AA is a pretty varied vocalist in the subtlest, coolest ways. He screams plenty on the "Indoctrine" record which is a concept album from the perspective of a suicide bomber by Blood Revolt, a project with him and J. Read/Chris Ross of Axis of Advance and Revenge. Did you ever hear it?

It's a punishing record though, and not for everyone. I mean, not for most people. I didn't like it at first but it has grown on me since. Groovy.

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Jose Cruz
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:32 pm 
 

1. Wintersun - Wintersun (2004) - 145th on the list
2. Ensiferum - Ensiferum (2001) - 62th on the list
3. Ensiferum - Iron (2004) - 186th on the list
4. Kamelot - Epica (2003) - 119th on the list
5. Iron Maiden - Brave New World (2000) - 5th place on the list
6. Bathory - Nordland I (2002) - 77th place on the list
7. Helloween - The Dark Ride (2000) - didn't show up
8. Hibria - Defying the Rules (2004) - 118th place on the list
9. Iron Savior - Dark Assault (2001) - didn't show up
10. Kamelot - The Black Halo (2004) - 14th place on the list

O guess that power metal and folk metal are not very popular among regulars on this forum.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:45 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Finally listening to 'To The Nameless Dead' by Primordial, and god damn - fucking killer album! No wonder it got as much praise as it did. Up to now the only full length I've heard was Redemption At The Puritan's Hand, which I got as a partial blind-buy. I thought it was good, but didn't really stay with me (though perhaps I need to revisit it). This one's leaving a stronger impression for sure.

On a related note, I gotta admit that as a casual listener of the band before this, I didn't know that A.A. Nemtheanga actually screamed too! :lol: I thought he just sang the whole time and that the black metal tag came from the music. I dig the shit out of his singing voice for sure, but hearing some screams is a nice way to keep some hefty variety in the vocals. Overall solid album and definitely revisiting this! The Gathering Wilderness is next on the list, as well as revisiting my Redemption CD.



Yeah AA is a pretty varied vocalist in the subtlest, coolest ways. He screams plenty on the "Indoctrine" record which is a concept album from the perspective of a suicide bomber by Blood Revolt, a project with him and J. Read/Chris Ross of Axis of Advance and Revenge. Did you ever hear it?


I haven't heard that, but I'm definitely intrigued! I have a hard time picturing him doing anything related to war metal so I definitely wanna check this out (and I do have an ear of sorts for the genre so the sound won't be totally foreign to my ears). Thanks for the recommendation!

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OlderBudweiser
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:34 pm 
 

And now the same polls for the 1980's and a spotify list for same decade:D

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overkill1978
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:07 am 
 

wow. That top 10 is horrible lol.

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SculptedCold
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:15 pm 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
One thing that Emissaries definitely has going for it is that it has a lot more of Melechesh's faster, violent and blasty moments than the other records do which is a huge plus for me.


Wut.

Has As Jerusalem Burns.. Al Intisar been removed from the archives or something?

Dunno about you guys, but Melechesh's best stuff was the first three. A ripping black metal debut, and then their two-step evolution into where they are now. The brutality was on As Jerusalem Burns.., Djinn and Proscriptor brought in the sick grooves, and then Sphynx kinda capitalized on everything they'd done to that point. Everything after those to me already started to feel like lesser copies of the then-settled formula. (Sphynx).

ofc for this poll the options available resolved themselves as they did... but no-one ever talks about their first two, and Sphynx is popularly relegated behind Emissaries and Epigenesis. I can't recall a single song off of either of the E's. So yeah, I rate Melechesh the other way around.

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Smalley
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:37 pm 
 

overkill1978 wrote:
wow. That top 10 is horrible lol.
Thanks for the contribution.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:26 pm 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
One thing that Emissaries definitely has going for it is that it has a lot more of Melechesh's faster, violent and blasty moments than the other records do which is a huge plus for me.


Wut.

Has As Jerusalem Burns.. Al Intisar been removed from the archives or something?

Dunno about you guys, but Melechesh's best stuff was the first three. A ripping black metal debut, and then their two-step evolution into where they are now. The brutality was on As Jerusalem Burns.., Djinn and Proscriptor brought in the sick grooves, and then Sphynx kinda capitalized on everything they'd done to that point. Everything after those to me already started to feel like lesser copies of the then-settled formula. (Sphynx).

ofc for this poll the options available resolved themselves as they did... but no-one ever talks about their first two, and Sphynx is popularly relegated behind Emissaries and Epigenesis. I can't recall a single song off of either of the E's. So yeah, I rate Melechesh the other way around.


I haven't heard the first 2 records in full yet; my comment was comparing Emissaries to Sphynx and Epigenesis.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:27 am 
 

SculptedCold wrote:
Dunno about you guys, but Melechesh's best stuff was the first three. A ripping black metal debut, and then their two-step evolution into where they are now. The brutality was on As Jerusalem Burns.., Djinn and Proscriptor brought in the sick grooves, and then Sphynx kinda capitalized on everything they'd done to that point. Everything after those to me already started to feel like lesser copies of the then-settled formula. (Sphynx).

ofc for this poll the options available resolved themselves as they did... but no-one ever talks about their first two, and Sphynx is popularly relegated behind Emissaries and Epigenesis. I can't recall a single song off of either of the E's. So yeah, I rate Melechesh the other way around.


personally, i think they reached their peak on emissaries, while sphynx is a clear runner up - jerusalem might rank over epigenesis as well, tho' i haven't listened to either in a long while
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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:23 am 
 

I like most Melechesh albums mostly the same, but Epigenesis is a bit ahead because of Grand Gathas of Baal Sin, my favorite song of theirs. I feel the rest of their discography is equally good, my favorites vary depending on my current mood. Though I haven't listened carefully to As Jerusalem Burns. It wasn't on the iTunes store back then, getting a physical copy was expensive and I just haven't gotten around to listen to it on Spotify.

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CannibalCorpse
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:32 am 
 

I'm still mad that Rage - Soundchaser didn't get a single fucking vote apart from mine, especially after having it on heavy rotation for many weeks now.

This record is the best PM-banger of that decade.
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sjal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:56 pm 
 

Goatfangs wrote:
I went through and looked at just the funeral doom albums and it seems a total of 21 were picked. Possible that I missed a few, though as I only eyeballed it.

Many thanks for the list!
It was very interesting to see the results in this particular subgenre of metal music.
+ And there are a few bands+albums that I've never heard of, so I need to get familiar with them.

Goatfangs wrote:
1. Esoteric - The Maniacal Vale - 79 points (45th)
2. Ahab - Call of the Wretched Sea - 54 points (73rd)
3. Skumring - De glemte tider - 40 points (102nd)
4. Evoken - Antithesis of Light - 33 points (143rd)
5. Mournful Congregation - The Monad of Creation - 33 points (144th)
6. Shape of Despair - Illusion's Play - 26 points (175th)
7. Doom:VS - Dead Words Speak - 25 points (r)
8. Shape of Despair - Angels of Distress - 25 points (r)
9. Void of Silence - Human Antithesis - 25 points (r)
10. Abyssmal Sorrow - Lament - 18 points (r)
11. The Slow Death - The Slow Death - 18 points (r)
12. Tyranny - Tides of Awakening - 18 points (r)
13. Wormphlegm - In an Excruciating Way Infested with Vermin and Violated by Executioners Who Practise Incendiarism and Desanctifying the Pious - 12 points (278th)
14. Profetus - Coronation of the Black Sun - 12 points (r)
15. Skepticism - Alloy - 10 points (r)
16. Wormphlegm - Tomb of the Ancient King - 8 points (r)
17. Asunder - A Clarion Call - 6 points (r)
18. Colosseum - Chapter 1: Delirium - 6 points (r)
19. Comatose Vigil - Not A Gleam of Hope - 6 points (r)
20. Shape of Despair - Shades of... - 6 points (r)
21. Worship - Dooom - 2 points (r)

Skumring being "third" among the funeral doom albums is a big surprise, I didn't think that many people knew of them. It's a great album, but it didn't even crack my initial raw list of 70 albums.

Oh, it turns out that my choice of an album from Shape of Despair's discography ended up in the rando corner... I voted for "Shades of..." because it was my gateway into atmospheric/funeral doom metal, and it's also one of my all-time favorites and most listened metal albums in general.
Plus this album has the highest rating on the Shape of Despair's ''MA reviews'' page (among the albums of the 2000s), so I expected to see some votes here.

As for my votes for doom, funeral doom and doom/death metal releases in general, the only one that is not in the rando corner is "Where Dreams Turn to Dust" by Forest of Shadows. This is great, I love this EP - it has one of the most beautiful metal music in melodic doom/death metal subgenre + beautiful non-metal parts/elements, very sad lyrics and emotional vocal performance (both harsh and clean vocals are great).

SculptedCold wrote:
Also a bit surprised P.H.O.B.O.S. and Crimson Massacre rando'd... I mean they're a little obscure for their respective genres at large, but I know they've had their fans around here too.

I voted for "Phlogiston Catharsis" (I think this is (objectively) their most accessible album) in the "Album of the 2010s" poll, and this album also ended up in the rando...
The music on "Tectonics" has an impressive and interesting sound, and I like the repetitiveness of the music, but the atmosphere+mood are a bit too extreme+frightening for me personally.

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SculptedCold
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:18 pm 
 

Phlogiston Catharsis is far and away their most accessible, agreed, and it might be their best too. It somehow sounds even more alien than their other albums, despite being catchier and more immediate.
Unfortunately I completely forgot about it in the 10's poll, otherwise i'd have had it near my own top.

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sjal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:19 am 
 

SculptedCold, thanks for your reply.
It's nice to know that there is a listener of P.H.O.B.O.S. who likes this album.

Actually, I didn't expect ''Phlogiston Catharsis'' to get any votes (or even any honorable mention) because of its relative accessibility. I have always thought that, when it comes to any kinds of industrial extreme metal albums, people prefer "the more extreme, harsh, not catchy+unmelodic and uneasy listening (both musically and vocally), the better" formula, - so I thought that fans of this kind of music either preferred some other albums from the band's discography or didn't like P.H.O.B.O.S. at all (because those fans preferred some other ''even more extreme'' industrial metal bands).

(But, to me, it's absolutely OK and understandable. :) I think it's kind of similar to the way fans of Esoteric chose "A Pyrrhic Existence" as the best/most favorite in the ''Album of the 2010s'' poll, - so I was not surprised that my vote for Esoteric's most accessible album "Paragon of Dissonance" ended up in the rando corner.
...Or when people who like albums that have some combination of metal music and dark ambient/industrial music prefer "as extreme, dark and unsettling as possible" stuff like metal albums by An Axis of Perdition, - so I'm not surprised that I'm the only one who voted for a "moderately extreme" funeral doom metal/dark ambient album by Void of Silence in this poll.

As for me, I just always prefer ''moderately extreme'' albums in general, so that's the reason I vote for these albums and don't vote for albums that are objectively more impressive and interesting in general but way too extreme for me personally - I just can't get into them at all, unfortunately. )

SculptedCold wrote:
It somehow sounds even more alien than their other albums, despite being catchier and more immediate.

It's an interesting description, I didn't think about it that way.
I think this is subjectively, but even if the music on ''Phlogiston Catharsis'' sounds (objectively) more alien, the atmosphere and mood feel less extreme/'sinister'/'dangerous' (compared with "Tectonics") for me personally. :)

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