Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 954
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:31 pm 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
They definitely did, and even incorporated some sections that sound almost BM-ish

https://youtu.be/XEEasR7hVhA?t=225


I was going to post that actually, but decided not to since Joey wasn't on it. But good catch!

Fearoth wrote:
Except for the production this has to be one of their heaviest, most metal influenced tracks:



Jesus fuck. "Metal influenced" is an understatement - that song is by and large an extreme metal tune. A pretty killer one at that too!

INB4 "sLiPkNoT sHoUlD bE oN tHe ArChIvEs"

Top
 Profile  
Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5567
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:05 pm 
 

Slipknot was never a gateway band for me growing up, I actually only just listened to their discography earlier this spring, but I jammed Murderdolls' Women and Children Last quite a bit in college.
_________________
Christopher Steve (Doom Folk/Americana): http://christophersteve.bandcamp.com/
Lavaborne (Power Doom): https://lavaborne.bandcamp.com
Spirit Division (Stoner Doom): http://spiritdivision.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2481
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

I wasn't as big a Slipknot fan as some here, but they were undeniably part of my trajectory towards getting into heavier music. I heard "Wait and Bleed" in '99 and was quite smitten with it. It and "Duality" in particular are two fun songs to drum along to. RIP.

Top
 Profile  
MRmehman
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:34 pm
Posts: 606
Location: Painted World of Ariamis
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:19 pm 
 

He was always the best part of Slipknot and it's sad to see him go. RIP Joey.
_________________
"He who is tired of Candlemass, is tired of life."

Top
 Profile  
MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 995
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:23 pm 
 

Call me crazy but I prefer Slipknot's cheesy mallcore stuff to their "trying to be metal" stuff. Personal preference I guess.

Quote:
This sucks, I saw someone posted that Slipknot was the first band to bring blast beats to the mainstream


They had blast beats on a #1 Billboard charting album. That's something.

inb4 "oh, some bebop drummer was playing blast beats in the 50s"

Top
 Profile  
Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2280
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:49 pm 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
If it wasn't for Slipknot and especially Joey, I'm not so sure that extreme metal would have ever had the level of mainstream penetration and acceptability that it has now, and I definitely think metal drumming would look very different without all those kids being inspired to pick up a drumset and play like him. RIP.


This can't be overstated enough, he was by far one of the most influential musicians in getting my generation of metalheads into the more extreme genres of metal. By the time I started listening to death metal and black metal my ear had already been tuned to listen to blast beats and double bass, all because of his drumming.
_________________
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
hells_unicorn
Veteran

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2689
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:15 pm 
 

I was never a Slipknot fan, I think a big part of it was I was already too old to be their target audience by 1997, and most of the forerunners to the nu-metal scene that were around when I was in high school like KoRn, Deftones and 311 were terrible. I did end up hearing some of their stuff off Iowa back in the day, partly due to My Plague being featured on the Resident Evil soundtrack. Never really got into the stuff, but Jordison's drumming was pretty impressive, so I can understand why so many younger metal heads started out with them. It's a big loss regardless of my personal opinion of their music, I gotta give credit where it's due, a huge number of musicians I've worked with over the past 20 years were directly influenced by them.
_________________
My music:
Ominous Glory Spotify
Ominous Glory YouTube
Ominous Glory Facebook

My reviews.

R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio (July 14, 1942 - May 16, 2010)

Top
 Profile  
HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:45 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
Frank Booth wrote:
If it wasn't for Slipknot and especially Joey, I'm not so sure that extreme metal would have ever had the level of mainstream penetration and acceptability that it has now, and I definitely think metal drumming would look very different without all those kids being inspired to pick up a drumset and play like him. RIP.


This can't be overstated enough, he was by far one of the most influential musicians in getting my generation of metalheads into the more extreme genres of metal. By the time I started listening to death metal and black metal my ear had already been tuned to listen to blast beats and double bass, all because of his drumming.


I'm happy to see that metalheads, both fans and musicians, are coming out to pay their respect to the guy. Slipknot have been shunned by many, for good or for bad reasons, but if there is one musician from Slipknot that was outstandingly good, it was Joey. His drumming was always so inspired, and his sources of inspiration are very diverse, and it always showed in his performance.

Relistening to some of their earlier work, even the weaker tracks, I notice that the drums are always solid regardless.

As a teenager, I spent a whole lot of time listening to the s/t and Iowa, but also Volume 3 when it came out, and his contribution most definitely helped me get into death and black metal drumming, for sure.

Top
 Profile  
King_of_Arnor
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:35 pm
Posts: 151
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:27 pm 
 

Joey was by far the most talented member of Slipknot. Incredibly sad to see him go. I'll always remember the first time I saw footage of him behind the kit, and it redefined what I thought was possible in drumming.

Top
 Profile  
Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 2193
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:09 pm 
 

Listening to some of the tracks, still not quite my bag but way more down the extreme metal path than I expected. You can tell they had death metal influences for sure.

Top
 Profile  
Firmament1
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:40 am
Posts: 53
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:30 pm 
 

Sucks to hear. I'm not a fan anymore, but Slipknot still helped get me into metal, and his drumming was always something I enjoyed.

Top
 Profile  
LordOfTheGallows
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:36 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:06 am 
 

Slipknot is the band that was my gateway into harsher music, pretty far cry from the Nickelbacks and Creeds that I was listening to around the time Iowa came out. It scared the shit out of me! But I never would have gotten into the music I am today without that first step. It's a damn shame that both Paul and now Joey are dead. Absolutely sucks. RIP #1.

Top
 Profile  
Oxenkiller
Veteran

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 3010
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:45 pm 
 

I have re-listened to a few Slipknot tracks recently, and I can really appreciate how good Jordison was as a drummer. But the fact is, as good as he was, I quite honestly never liked the band. This isn't a matter of being a "true metalhead" but simply a matter of taste; the music was heavy and aggressive, but it just wasn't the type of sound that I really connected with. The music was just too jerky, lacking in flow, and the vocals were too tough-guy rappy/angsty for my taste.

And also, I was a little too old to have "come of age" when they peaked in popularity in the late 90's/early 2000's, so they were never my "Gateway band" (That would have been Motley Crue and Randy Rhodes-era Ozzy for me.) So I don't really have the nostalgic attachment to them. But they were certainly a gateway band for the millenial generation that came after me., and I give them a lot of credit for being so influential to so many people. I can certainly hear a lot of their influence on more recent metal bands.

Top
 Profile  
Gunslinger21
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:11 am
Posts: 332
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:44 pm 
 

Reminds me of logging in and seeing Alexi Laiho had passed away. Just sucks, its always the ones you don't expect to pass. Dude was an incredible drummer and one of my favourite points of Slipknot's music. A reminder for how short life is. RIP.

Top
 Profile  
Dooders
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 737
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:18 am 
 

Man, Slipknot Vol 3 (the Subliminal Verses) stayed in my CD player for about a year back in 2004 before Ipods and all of that. Incredibly catchy with tunes like Duality and Before I forget, and a huge part of that is his drumming. Truly a drummers drummer.
He is one of the few drummers in metal that carved out his own sound and is so easily identifiable in the sound.
RIP Joey, thanks for bringing tasteful metal drumming to the forefront.

Top
 Profile  
morteal47
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:25 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:54 am 
 

This was a real bummer to hear on a few different levels.

I was a huge fan boy of Slipknot when I first discovered them back when they came out on the scene right around the time I became a teenager. At the time the heaviest stuff I listened was Korn, Godsmack, Limp Bizkit. So when I heard the song right after the intro track on their first album (sic), I was blown away and didn't know this type of music existed.
From there I was hooked and after researching them on the limited internet at the time (early 2000s) I got recommendations for other bands like Cannibal corpse, Dimmu borgir, basically a world of heavy music I never knew existed.

Iowa is my favorite album from them and for all time for me. I enjoyed everything that have come out since them up to a point with a few songs. But I could listen to the first 2 albums all day. Brings back that nostalgic feeling while being an angst ridden teenage kid in high school and having this music as a haven. So no matter what the band does and says these days , I'm still a fan boy regardless.

I started playing guitar around that time frame as well, so I leaned more towards the guitar players of Slipknot but Joey was always amazing on the drums and recognized as such. One of the things that set Slipknot apart for me was the percussion, I know they have 2 other guys banging stuff but he provided that solid backbone.
So this and the death of Alexi Laiho really sucks.

I was also hoping for him to reunite with Slipknot and start playing with them again but now that's definitely not going to happen.

And the final sting is he died on the week of my birthday, so every time this date rolls around I'll be reminded.

Top
 Profile  
Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 9907
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:36 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Listening to some of the tracks, still not quite my bag but way more down the extreme metal path than I expected. You can tell they had death metal influences for sure.


Pretty much all the band are into legit extreme metal to varying degrees. Mick's done guest solos for both Necrophagia and Malevolent Creation, Corey's talked in the past about how Death and Deicide helped shaped his taste in music as a young man, and several Slipknot members, including Joey, were in a death thrash band called Modifidious in the 90s that broke up when Slipknot started.

--

The band put up their tribute video to Joey today. It's an 8 minute long compilation of clips of Joey drumming and doing other stuff. There's some previously unreleased footage in this of Joey tracking drums for Iowa in here too.

_________________
Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

Top
 Profile  
Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:06 pm 
 

Subrick wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Listening to some of the tracks, still not quite my bag but way more down the extreme metal path than I expected. You can tell they had death metal influences for sure.


Pretty much all the band are into legit extreme metal to varying degrees. Mick's done guest solos for both Necrophagia and Malevolent Creation, Corey's talked in the past about how Death and Deicide helped shaped his taste in music as a young man, and several Slipknot members, including Joey, were in a death thrash band called Modifidious in the 90s that broke up when Slipknot started.

--

The band put up their tribute video to Joey today. It's an 8 minute long compilation of clips of Joey drumming and doing other stuff. There's some previously unreleased footage in this of Joey tracking drums for Iowa in here too.


Now that tribute was awesome. This shows that even though Joey left the band, the members still cared for him.
_________________
Under a serpent sun... we shall all live as one! - "Under a Serpent Sun" by At The Gates
Check out my reviews

Top
 Profile  
Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 706
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:00 pm 
 

I really never understood why people hated on Slipknot so much. I assume it was because of the nu-metal backlash, but Slipknot was never really what you would consider a "nu" band. (Probably also because they were signed to a big label who did a ton of major marketing). They took all types of metal and just blended it together - and did a really fucking good job at that. And Joey's drumming was an integral part of all of that. Going from groove to breakdowns to double-kicks, he was just a master of what a metal drummer could be.

RIP Joey.

Top
 Profile  
Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 9907
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:24 pm 
 

They got the level of hate they got because they were part of the nu metal fad. They looked the part, they mostly sounded the part (although they were demonstrably heavier and more rooted in actual metal than every other band of the period), and they were basically the poster boys for angsty white boy music. I say that all as someone that absolutely loves the band and still consider them one of my favorites ever, as well as someone who actually WAS that angsty white boy as a teen when I found them.

As for Joey, I don't think it's truly understood by many people in the metalsphere just how important Joey was to attracting attention to extreme-style drumming. Slipknot have sold something like 30 million to 40 million of album worldwide. Many younger drummers nowadays are saying they were introduced to this kind of drumming with the crazy blasting and double bass by Joey and Slipknot. He's one of the most important drummers in metal and even rock history for that reason, alongside the fact that he was indeed such a technically gifted powerhouse of a player in his own regard. We all got attracted to drumming specifically because of how good he was at doing it.
_________________
Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

Top
 Profile  
NecroRAM
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:17 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:47 pm 
 

MawBTS wrote:
Call me crazy but I prefer Slipknot's cheesy mallcore stuff to their "trying to be metal" stuff. Personal preference I guess.


This is something thats not talked about enough. They were good exactly because of those first 2 albums.
Thats what Slipknot was and still is in the minds of the majority i believe.

Them trying to "diversify" or cater to metalheads on Vol 3 and beyond is exactly what ruined the band, because a band of that popularity level trying to do legit metal with more complex riffing and solos, metal ballads, etc, just wouldnt sound authentic to what they are: a sick, filthy band. I dont think any of the albums past Iowa had 1/10 of the artistic message as the first two up until the most recent one which was a really good revival attempt with all things considered.

Still, if they just disbanded after the Iowa tour, they still wouldve preserved 100% of their legacy and i think would be way more respected as the band that blew up the mainstream and left without a compromise. Wanting them to be more metal is like wanting The Prodigy to sound like conventional EDM/techno DJs. They were their own unique thing on the first 2 albums where every component from riffs to vocals to samples to theatrics matched with each other and was consistent across the board. After that you had shit like them dressing in suits/jeans with that stupid Corey AHIG mask and a band with a brutal/edgy logo singing ballads like Vermillion or Till We Die. Even on the heavier side, everything started sounding quantized and too contrived for a band like them. If i wanted technical riffs id listen to tech death bands. They were always meant to sound off tempo, imprecise, filthy, with guitars used as just another thing in the mix to add to the palette of heaviness and creepy atmospherics/electronics/samples, not just strictly metal riffing and production. This is what a lot of people dont understand about this band and are quick to disregard them as a nu-metal gimmick or whatever.

In fact thats exactly what i did at first. They werent a gateway for me since where i live they werent on TV or radio and even if i had caught them on international channels like MTV i have no memory of it as opposed to stuff like Linkin Park, Bizkit or Korn which i do remember from back in the day. When i really started getting into music and digging and listening to albums was when i started playing the guitar and even though i was inspired to pick it up by Linkin Park, as i got better and getting into tech stuff like Necrophagist, i fell into the trap of evaluating everything by its technicality and Slipknot were instantly written off as a joke band with too many members and no riffs that would ever compare without even giving them a proper listen beyond a couple of singles and catching shit like Snuff on TV and laughing it off. And even after listening to the self-titled a couple of years after that i only liked Eyeless and thats largely because of Joey's famous intro video and the ending breakdown. It wasnt until another year or two later when i got into more emotionally driven music like metalcore/post-hardcore like early Norma Jean and decided to also explore all the nu-metal i missed out on that i truly became a fan of Slipknot and now at this stage id easily name the self-titled as a top-3 or top-5 90's album in all genres.

It is a very good, a heavy, a unique, emotionally driven album that covers grounds one can only truly understand beyond the surface level at 25+ age. I find the notion that theyre for teenagers very wrong. They wrote those songs in their mid-late 20s, same goes for a lot of the music by many nu-metal bands. I dont think its realistically possible for a teenager with little life experience to actually relate to that music beyond the surface level of heaviness/edginess or whatever. I do think it is some of the best types of music if you want really personal, really emotionally driven and human experience-based stuff. And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music. And as such i do think that early Slipknot were a 100% authentic, unique and original band. Now, past-Iowa is another story, but music fans in general and metalheads in particular should reassess their views on them i think.

Top
 Profile  
Subrick
Metal Strongman

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
Posts: 9907
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:25 pm 
 

Also, for anyone stuck in 2004 that thinks differently of Joey's chops as a drummer, here's a death metal song he wrote and drummed on for the Roadrunner United compilation 16 years ago. Features him, Steve DiGiorgio, Rob Barrett, Matt DeVries, James Murphy, and Glen Benton. Someone less high than me right now can better discern what bands this mainly sounds like.

_________________
Earthcubed wrote:
I'm just perpetually annoyed by Sean William Scott and he's never been in a movie where I wasn't rooting for his head to sever by strange means.

Blacksoul Seraphim Gothic Doom Metal
Autumn's Ashes Melodic Death/Doom Metal

Top
 Profile  
DarkStep01
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:15 am
Posts: 35
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:21 pm 
 

It's sad, he was a great drummer. The first two Slipknot albums still bang to me. I also loved his work with Sinsaenum and especially Murderdolls.

A great talent taken way too soon.

Top
 Profile  
Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 664
Location: Asheville area, NC, US
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:37 pm 
 

Didn't he play in a porngrind band called Anal Blast at one point too? He seemed to have a little bit of everything under his belt.
_________________
Svarthavid wrote:
Saying that Bolt Thrower suck is like saying the guys at capital hill did nothing wrong, they only protected America.

Top
 Profile  
LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2481
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:06 am 
 

NecroRAM wrote:
Them trying to "diversify" or cater to metalheads on Vol 3 and beyond is exactly what ruined the band, because a band of that popularity level trying to do legit metal with more complex riffing and solos, metal ballads, etc, just wouldnt sound authentic to what they are: a sick, filthy band...They were their own unique thing on the first 2 albums where every component from riffs to vocals to samples to theatrics matched with each other and was consistent across the board...They were always meant to sound off tempo, imprecise, filthy, with guitars used as just another thing in the mix to add to the palette of heaviness and creepy atmospherics/electronics/samples, not just strictly metal riffing and production. This is what a lot of people dont understand about this band and are quick to disregard them as a nu-metal gimmick or whatever...And as such i do think that early Slipknot were a 100% authentic, unique and original band. Now, past-Iowa is another story, but music fans in general and metalheads in particular should reassess their views on them i think.


See, this is where my memory of reading a lot of stuff about them back in the day comes out differently. I'd always heard that they weren't completely happy with how the early material came out, and that they had to give in to studio pressure to edit out any explorative parts out of songs, take out the guitar solos and such. Then starting on Vol. 3 they were able to be more of themselves. Even if you watch assorted videos of Mick and Jim playing on their own, it's clear that they're interested in far more than just the caveman riffing of the first albums. They were also really anti 7-string guitars, I suspect viewing them as being too associated with the least talented nu-metal bands. Maybe they didn't listen to enough Azagthoth, Petrucci, Loomis, Vai, or MacAlpine.

Edit: Ok, found one interview. Chris Fehn describes this positively (probably because he's in album promotion mode), but he straight up says it was Ross Robinson changing their sound. That isn't "100% authenticity", that's bowing to label pressure.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160816044931/http://www.kindamuzik.net/interview/slipknot/slipknot/409/

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:32 am 
 

Vol 3 is their best album imho.

Top
 Profile  
Spiner202
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:32 pm
Posts: 2358
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:58 am 
 

The first four are all good in their own way. Admittedly I lost interest by the time the 5th one rolled around, and I really only liked Unsainted from the new one.

I know a lot of people love the first two, but IMO every Slipknot album has the same problem: 5 or so great songs and then the rest is largely filler. They're awesome live and would have a killer greatest hits, but I find all of their albums a struggle to get through.
_________________
Check out my review webzine: Skull Fracturing Metal

Top
 Profile  
Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1103
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:13 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Didn't he play in a porngrind band called Anal Blast at one point too? He seemed to have a little bit of everything under his belt.


To the best of my knowledge, Jordison was a founder, and I believe Steele, Crahan, and Gray were also in the band at one point or another.

Top
 Profile  
NecroRAM
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:17 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:02 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Edit: Ok, found one interview. Chris Fehn describes this positively (probably because he's in album promotion mode), but he straight up says it was Ross Robinson changing their sound. That isn't "100% authenticity", that's bowing to label pressure.


Good catch and i somewhat agree with that, but thank god it was Ross, he brought out the best possible version of Slipknot that anyone couldve possibly done. I believe the band realized how streamlined the songs were without all the unnecessary stuff that was left out. I also dont think thats bowing to label pressure, but rather listening to the advice of a man that knows what hes doing and the proof is in the pudding. One can say all they want about what a standard, good metal album should sound like, but the truth is none of those songs would be more memorable if memorable or better at all if they had solos and whatnot. If they released a standard sounding metal album, nobody would give a fuck. And it worked so well with the theatrics. When you see them you imagine that sound, and when you hear that sound, you imagine that look. I think that rift and dissonance in the perception is part of the reason the later albums arent as praised as the first two. Cause the image was gone, the sound was gone. Saying that Vol 3 is the best because of experimentation might objectively be a sound point of evaluation, but in the context of what they were initially it absolutely misses the point.

They were also way different in terms of what the band should be musically and commercially. Clown sounds like a totally different guy in his vision compared to now in this interview:
https://youtu.be/7fksajcO3js

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 2891
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:11 pm 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I didn't know they had blasting in their songs to that extent or was it just a handful of cuts?


Maybe not to the extent of a band like Dark Funeral, but they were definitely found throughout. If you're not too familiar with their discography you might have to do some scouring to find them. Like 2:16 of Disasterpiece



They definitely did, and even incorporated some sections that sound almost BM-ish

https://youtu.be/XEEasR7hVhA?t=225

I agree. This riff at 1:23 sounds even more black metal: https://youtu.be/3deDNMr12rQ

Top
 Profile  
Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2280
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:36 am 
 

NecroRAM wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
Call me crazy but I prefer Slipknot's cheesy mallcore stuff to their "trying to be metal" stuff. Personal preference I guess.


This is something thats not talked about enough. They were good exactly because of those first 2 albums.
Thats what Slipknot was and still is in the minds of the majority i believe.

Them trying to "diversify" or cater to metalheads on Vol 3 and beyond is exactly what ruined the band, because a band of that popularity level trying to do legit metal with more complex riffing and solos, metal ballads, etc, just wouldnt sound authentic to what they are: a sick, filthy band. I dont think any of the albums past Iowa had 1/10 of the artistic message as the first two up until the most recent one which was a really good revival attempt with all things considered.

Still, if they just disbanded after the Iowa tour, they still wouldve preserved 100% of their legacy and i think would be way more respected as the band that blew up the mainstream and left without a compromise. Wanting them to be more metal is like wanting The Prodigy to sound like conventional EDM/techno DJs. They were their own unique thing on the first 2 albums where every component from riffs to vocals to samples to theatrics matched with each other and was consistent across the board. After that you had shit like them dressing in suits/jeans with that stupid Corey AHIG mask and a band with a brutal/edgy logo singing ballads like Vermillion or Till We Die. Even on the heavier side, everything started sounding quantized and too contrived for a band like them. If i wanted technical riffs id listen to tech death bands. They were always meant to sound off tempo, imprecise, filthy, with guitars used as just another thing in the mix to add to the palette of heaviness and creepy atmospherics/electronics/samples, not just strictly metal riffing and production. This is what a lot of people dont understand about this band and are quick to disregard them as a nu-metal gimmick or whatever.

In fact thats exactly what i did at first. They werent a gateway for me since where i live they werent on TV or radio and even if i had caught them on international channels like MTV i have no memory of it as opposed to stuff like Linkin Park, Bizkit or Korn which i do remember from back in the day. When i really started getting into music and digging and listening to albums was when i started playing the guitar and even though i was inspired to pick it up by Linkin Park, as i got better and getting into tech stuff like Necrophagist, i fell into the trap of evaluating everything by its technicality and Slipknot were instantly written off as a joke band with too many members and no riffs that would ever compare without even giving them a proper listen beyond a couple of singles and catching shit like Snuff on TV and laughing it off. And even after listening to the self-titled a couple of years after that i only liked Eyeless and thats largely because of Joey's famous intro video and the ending breakdown. It wasnt until another year or two later when i got into more emotionally driven music like metalcore/post-hardcore like early Norma Jean and decided to also explore all the nu-metal i missed out on that i truly became a fan of Slipknot and now at this stage id easily name the self-titled as a top-3 or top-5 90's album in all genres.

It is a very good, a heavy, a unique, emotionally driven album that covers grounds one can only truly understand beyond the surface level at 25+ age. I find the notion that theyre for teenagers very wrong. They wrote those songs in their mid-late 20s, same goes for a lot of the music by many nu-metal bands. I dont think its realistically possible for a teenager with little life experience to actually relate to that music beyond the surface level of heaviness/edginess or whatever. I do think it is some of the best types of music if you want really personal, really emotionally driven and human experience-based stuff. And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music. And as such i do think that early Slipknot were a 100% authentic, unique and original band. Now, past-Iowa is another story, but music fans in general and metalheads in particular should reassess their views on them i think.


Interesting read. Gotta say, I really dig Vol 3 now that I'm older. I think the anger and hunger that was there early on had dwindled in the band as time went on, and so keeping that rawness of their first two albums would've just been derivative. And lots of bands do this- they find their style works, and just keep going with it. The fact they evolved, in my view, is what kept the band continuing. Lotta people don't realize this, but there was a lotta murmur in that mid 00's period after Iowa that they were going to break up, and Corey specifically mentioned how he didn't want the band to be this 'has been' that doesn't know when to break up (comparing them to gwar). I think they found inspiration again, which helped them move forward.

As for what you're saying about not truly understanding Slipknot or nu metal in general unless you're an adult, I think that's a very intriguing observation and I totally fucking agree. Slipknot was, as they were for many, a gateway band for me to get into extreme music. I was 10 when I became a 'maggot', and 12 when I jumped ship for extreme metal. And I was exactly what you described yourself as- someone obsessed with technicality, A+ musicianship, all that shit. And it still has it's place, no doubt. I'm still in awe of Necrophagist, or some really layered and beautiful composition by a band like Emperor or Deathspell Omega. But there's something about writing a simple riff that comes straight from your gonads or heart, using little thought, that acts as a catharsis for what builds up over every day life. Some of the stuff I've written musically that's 'technical' might be more impressive to someone that's an outside viewer, but my favorite riffs are those that I wrote from my heart, and those are usually my most easy and straightforward ones.

That heart is what I hear in Slipknot's first two albums. A pure, raw drive that stops at absolutely nothing. In light of everything that's going on, I watched this podcast episode of Rob Flynn's No Fkn Regrets where he talks about his experiences with Joey Jordison and yeah- that hunger was just there in the band from the get go, especially from Joey.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Edit: Ok, found one interview. Chris Fehn describes this positively (probably because he's in album promotion mode), but he straight up says it was Ross Robinson changing their sound. That isn't "100% authenticity", that's bowing to label pressure.


Idk, go listen to MFKR and tell me what you think :lol:. It's a pretty damn experimental release, with a lot of it ending up on the first and second album, but it definitely has that 'local band' vibe where they didn't exactly know who they were. Really reminds me of when I was growing up, there was this one local band who was way talented but man, they had zero musical concentration. Just throwing everything at the wall- funk, hip hop, harmonica solos, bongos. And everything was 'good', but no real focus to make a solid record. That's MFKR, to a degree. I think Ross did a great job taking the main essence of Slipknot and really bringing it out.
_________________
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:57 am 
 

NecroRAM wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
Call me crazy but I prefer Slipknot's cheesy mallcore stuff to their "trying to be metal" stuff. Personal preference I guess.


This is something thats not talked about enough. They were good exactly because of those first 2 albums.
Thats what Slipknot was and still is in the minds of the majority i believe.

Them trying to "diversify" or cater to metalheads on Vol 3 and beyond is exactly what ruined the band, because a band of that popularity level trying to do legit metal with more complex riffing and solos, metal ballads, etc, just wouldnt sound authentic to what they are: a sick, filthy band. I dont think any of the albums past Iowa had 1/10 of the artistic message as the first two up until the most recent one which was a really good revival attempt with all things considered.

Still, if they just disbanded after the Iowa tour, they still wouldve preserved 100% of their legacy and i think would be way more respected as the band that blew up the mainstream and left without a compromise. Wanting them to be more metal is like wanting The Prodigy to sound like conventional EDM/techno DJs. They were their own unique thing on the first 2 albums where every component from riffs to vocals to samples to theatrics matched with each other and was consistent across the board. After that you had shit like them dressing in suits/jeans with that stupid Corey AHIG mask and a band with a brutal/edgy logo singing ballads like Vermillion or Till We Die. Even on the heavier side, everything started sounding quantized and too contrived for a band like them. If i wanted technical riffs id listen to tech death bands. They were always meant to sound off tempo, imprecise, filthy, with guitars used as just another thing in the mix to add to the palette of heaviness and creepy atmospherics/electronics/samples, not just strictly metal riffing and production. This is what a lot of people dont understand about this band and are quick to disregard them as a nu-metal gimmick or whatever.

In fact thats exactly what i did at first. They werent a gateway for me since where i live they werent on TV or radio and even if i had caught them on international channels like MTV i have no memory of it as opposed to stuff like Linkin Park, Bizkit or Korn which i do remember from back in the day. When i really started getting into music and digging and listening to albums was when i started playing the guitar and even though i was inspired to pick it up by Linkin Park, as i got better and getting into tech stuff like Necrophagist, i fell into the trap of evaluating everything by its technicality and Slipknot were instantly written off as a joke band with too many members and no riffs that would ever compare without even giving them a proper listen beyond a couple of singles and catching shit like Snuff on TV and laughing it off. And even after listening to the self-titled a couple of years after that i only liked Eyeless and thats largely because of Joey's famous intro video and the ending breakdown. It wasnt until another year or two later when i got into more emotionally driven music like metalcore/post-hardcore like early Norma Jean and decided to also explore all the nu-metal i missed out on that i truly became a fan of Slipknot and now at this stage id easily name the self-titled as a top-3 or top-5 90's album in all genres.

It is a very good, a heavy, a unique, emotionally driven album that covers grounds one can only truly understand beyond the surface level at 25+ age. I find the notion that theyre for teenagers very wrong. They wrote those songs in their mid-late 20s, same goes for a lot of the music by many nu-metal bands. I dont think its realistically possible for a teenager with little life experience to actually relate to that music beyond the surface level of heaviness/edginess or whatever. I do think it is some of the best types of music if you want really personal, really emotionally driven and human experience-based stuff. And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music. And as such i do think that early Slipknot were a 100% authentic, unique and original band. Now, past-Iowa is another story, but music fans in general and metalheads in particular should reassess their views on them i think.


I have to disagree with this, mostly because it relies on premises that aren't true. Slipknot didn't change their sound to be more metal or to have a broader appeal within the metal community. Not only were they doing just fine while being a nu-metal band, but if you've ever watched or read any interview with members of the band, they've always firmly believed that they were a metal band, and outside of diehard metalhead communities, this is exactly how they are perceived by the vast majority of people. Corey Taylor, in documentaries and interviews refers to Slipknot as a metal band. Following the passing of Joey, the band shared a montage video of Joey moments with the band, including one where he says that Iowa is the best metal album of all time.

Slipknot didn't change their sound to be "more metal", they changed it because they wanted to explore other things. When they released Vol. 3, I was a diehard fanboy of the band. I could name all the musicians with their numbers and I made little drawings of them and their masks in my high school agendas. I was not a "real" metalhead at the time. I did like Children of Bodom, Kalmah, InFlames, Megadeth and Maiden, but I didn't have any form of disdain for nu-metal, and I truly loved Vol. 3 when it came out. Not because it was more metal, but because I liked the song-writing, the riffs, Corey's vocals, the drums, the percussions, and I loved how they were reinventing themselves. They had new masks. Clown had this steel keg that he was hitting with a baseball bat in the Duality video (I know it's stupid to like them for that, but I thought it was cool), and I liked the imagery within the album booklet, and the new masks.

By the time All Hope Is Gone came out, I was starting to lose interest in the band, but as a diehard fan, I still bought the album within giving it a single listen first. It was okay, but none of the songs stuck with me. Most nu-metal bands had died out by that point, and the only surviving acts of the time, like Disturbed or Linkin Park, had turned to alternative rock, and it felt like Slipknot were also toying with more rock elements, and leaving out the aggression that defined them early on.

Then the band released .5 The Grey Chapter, which according to the band was their lowest point. So even if they had started to toy with more commercial friendly ideas on AHIG, the band itself didn't perceive itself as creatively bankrupt, losing speed or anything. But on The Grey Chapter, they didn't really enjoy what they were doing all that much anymore.

Now to address the whole idea that nu-metal is secretly not for teenagers and that you have to be older to fully understand it... this just feels really off to me. You're basing this solely on your own experience and ignoring the fact that their entire fanbase was at the time of Iowa was basically 15-25 years old. I also had that phase in my life in which I judged quality based on technicality, but that came later. So maybe you missed on Slipknot as a teenager, but I still firmly remember kids in high school talking about the new Left Behind videoclip. One kid in my art class was talking about how clown has a pentagram carved into his face and eats his own thumb while there is blood spewing over his hands and face. The whole videoclip was very dark, dirty, and it played to this very common emotion that teenagers have, the feeling of being left out, abandonned, treated as a weirdo, an outsider. In the video they even have a young teenage boy being bullied by other teenagers.

I mean, sure, there are subtleties, little intricate details that you might not be able to appreciate fully as a teenager, but there is a reason why this music was so popular with teenagers, and it's because of how raw and violent it is. You don't have to be English literature major to understand "People=shit" or lines line "I've felt the hate rise up in my, kneel down and clear the stone of leaves, I wander out where you can't see, inside my shell I wait and bleed" or "Fuck it all! Fuck this world! Fuck everything that you stand for! Don't belong! Don't exist! Don't give a shit! Don't ever judge me!" These speak to things that teenagers feel. Emotionnal rushes. Emotions they don't fully understand. The need to figure out where they fit it, who they are, and what they want to be. The sadness and anger of being left out, bullied, mocked. Rebellion. Forming their own ideas and beliefs. The struggles of interpersonnal relationships.

Sure, these things can speak to the human condition in general, but they are expressed in a way that appeals to teenagers.

I'm also kind of unsure as to what sentences like this mean "And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music." Like... how can you know? You're still presuming stuff based on your own experiences and giving the band intentions they probably never had. For instance, I was a "true fan" of the band from the s/t up to Vol. 3, and then I eventually lost interest, even in their early material that I only revisited on occasions. Was I "not the target audience" all along? There is something very presumptous, maybe accidentaly but still, about how you're trying to define the "true" Slipknot fan, and you are somehow it. It has to be someone who likes the s/t and Iowa, nothing else, but who also never ends up liking these two albums less, because there is apparently only one way to really appreciate them.

To focus this back on Joey a little bit, I'd argue that he, and the other musicians in the band were most definitely convinced that they were a metal band. They probably didn't care much for the whole "Is nu-metal really metal or not?" debate, and they were surely convinced that they were just pushing the genre further. Which they were. Regardless of if you think of their music as metal or not, Slipknot were something else entirely. And to Joey's defense, the guy implemented elements of so many different metal genres in his stuff, that he was basically playing metal drums anyway. Most of his blastbeats were very much death metal if you ask me!

Top
 Profile  
Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1134
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:25 am 
 

I hated Slipknot at first, without listening to a single note of their music. I was in the UK studying (since 1996) and everywhere you looked it was the same: Roots Sepultura, Korn, Machine Head, Fear Factory, Cradle of Filth and then Slipknot. And those were the good ones, there was also hed(pe), Pitchshifter and a bunch of other nobodies that the UK press thought were the next leaders of the scene. The magazines (Kerrang! was particularly terrible), the kids, the black hair with red streaks, the huge combat boots and a huge disdain for anything remotely old school. Iron Maiden was releasing crap so that didn't help either. So, Slipknot was just another band that I figured was part of all that and I just defaulted to "fuck this shit".

When I came down to Greece for summer holidays, my younger sister played me the first track off the debut without telling me what it was. And I was really impressed, particularly with the whole sound and the percussion (mix of drums and the other stuff). So, that changed my mind about their music although I never lost my disdain for the style and their crowd I guess.

However, I will agree with whoever said that their main problem is that they have 4-5 songs that are actually really good and a whole lot of filler. Which is something I feel about Roots too incidentally. Picking the best songs from the first three would make an incredible album though.

In any case, Joey was a great drummer. Not really a god but a great drummer nevertheless and his contribution to the instrument was inspiring a lot of people to pick up the sticks and go for it. A real shame.

For the record, I think both Slipknot and System of a Down belong in the archives.
_________________
42

King Diamond: A Royal Tribute (short guide to King Diamond's discography)

Vic's Dungeon:

The Dungeon Awards for 2017

Best of 2017, Part II: 5+1 more albums

Let's talk about Ghost (aka Stop the Madness)

Top
 Profile  
NecroRAM
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:17 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:17 am 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
That heart is what I hear in Slipknot's first two albums. A pure, raw drive that stops at absolutely nothing. In light of everything that's going on, I watched this podcast episode of Rob Flynn's No Fkn Regrets where he talks about his experiences with Joey Jordison and yeah- that hunger was just there in the band from the get go, especially from Joey.

I think Ross did a great job taking the main essence of Slipknot and really bringing it out.


Well said. In general, any music only works if its effective. And also the common complaint about technical music that its all wank is not presented because technical music is inherently bad, but because a lot of technical music is ineffective in its execution. Sure its more abstracted from everyday human experience, but it still should have a unifying, consistent musical theme.
With Slipknot, they had that consistency on the first two, but lost it starting with Vol 3. Heavy for the sake of heavy never works.


HeavenDuff wrote:
Sure, these things can speak to the human condition in general, but they are expressed in a way that appeals to teenagers.


Im against the idea that those expressions are exclusively relatable to teenagers only or that the whole album was written in that vein.
Take Metabolic off of Iowa. Lines like:

The hardest part was knowing that I could never be you
...
I'm always ready to die, but you're killing me


may sound like generic and confrontational, but theres lot more in them than what a 12 year old would have the life experience to have felt or understand.

And the whole breakdown is much more poignant and abstractly constructed than that:

When I blur my eyes, they make the whole world breathe
I see you fucking me
And I am absolutely controlling every urge to mutilate
The one and only answer so much for memories
I wanna dress in your insecurities
And be the perfect you, I'm through
I'm out-stretched out for all to loathe
Here we go, the ultimate irony



Theres this explanation on SongMeanings that sums up what i feel about these lines better than i ever could:

"Try to put it this way...
All things in the world seem allright when I dont care about them...
because he doesnt want to feel He doesent remember of anything also...
He wanna take over the person outside of his body...
and simply be apathetic, that so... he would be perfect... why?!
No one could annoy him... fuck him... hurt him...
People with habits like that are also known as lunatics... just because they simply dont care...
That is also a big irony... He fucks himself up instead of helping himself..."


Also my comment about what they were supposed to be should be taken as an outside observation with a 20/20 hindsight, sure the band couldnt have possibly known what they were creating and what long-term influence and relevancy it would have. They couldve just as well not make it that big, like quite a few other bands of the time, Cold being a prime example. Now im not trying to define what a true fan should be, but to me personally its clear that with any music, especially heavier genres, theres always people who "grow out" of it and to me thats just a clear cut indication that they never belonged and that it didnt speak to them to the core. Of course not speaking of the edge cases. The proof for that are all the fans that, well, didnt grow out of it and are still fans or even became one later on in life. Im always against the notion that certain music is for teenagers only and ive found many examples of older people liking shit that to me is utterly disgusting, primitive and unrelatable.

Sure my experience is limited to me only but something tells me the whole stereotype of "it being only for kids" has been formed and perpetuated by the same limited number of people that liked them for a moment in their teens then grew out and are now extrapolating their experience over everybody. People always trying to paint themselves and the average human better than they are: that for some reason an adult couldnt or shouldnt feel a certain way or write certain music/lyrics because its "for kids" or whatever.

Maybe you didnt continue to experience confused feelings into your adulthood, thats why its now less relevant to you, not trying to put you down or anything, just saying. Though i find it highly unlikely as everyone is struggling in some way and those struggles and responsibility and seriousness only become larger but much more subtle to notice as life goes by. In school your real major problem is bullies, in adulthood, you face real rejection by people, friends, employers, love interests, theres much more confusion, apprehension and self-consciousness about how and when you should behave, etc, etc. All of that eats at your mind and i find that that music would still talk to anyone who had the chance to appreciate Slipknot.

Top
 Profile  
SladeCraven
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm
Posts: 542
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:54 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
NecroRAM wrote:
MawBTS wrote:
Call me crazy but I prefer Slipknot's cheesy mallcore stuff to their "trying to be metal" stuff. Personal preference I guess.


This is something thats not talked about enough. They were good exactly because of those first 2 albums.
Thats what Slipknot was and still is in the minds of the majority i believe.

Them trying to "diversify" or cater to metalheads on Vol 3 and beyond is exactly what ruined the band, because a band of that popularity level trying to do legit metal with more complex riffing and solos, metal ballads, etc, just wouldnt sound authentic to what they are: a sick, filthy band. I dont think any of the albums past Iowa had 1/10 of the artistic message as the first two up until the most recent one which was a really good revival attempt with all things considered.

Still, if they just disbanded after the Iowa tour, they still wouldve preserved 100% of their legacy and i think would be way more respected as the band that blew up the mainstream and left without a compromise. Wanting them to be more metal is like wanting The Prodigy to sound like conventional EDM/techno DJs. They were their own unique thing on the first 2 albums where every component from riffs to vocals to samples to theatrics matched with each other and was consistent across the board. After that you had shit like them dressing in suits/jeans with that stupid Corey AHIG mask and a band with a brutal/edgy logo singing ballads like Vermillion or Till We Die. Even on the heavier side, everything started sounding quantized and too contrived for a band like them. If i wanted technical riffs id listen to tech death bands. They were always meant to sound off tempo, imprecise, filthy, with guitars used as just another thing in the mix to add to the palette of heaviness and creepy atmospherics/electronics/samples, not just strictly metal riffing and production. This is what a lot of people dont understand about this band and are quick to disregard them as a nu-metal gimmick or whatever.

In fact thats exactly what i did at first. They werent a gateway for me since where i live they werent on TV or radio and even if i had caught them on international channels like MTV i have no memory of it as opposed to stuff like Linkin Park, Bizkit or Korn which i do remember from back in the day. When i really started getting into music and digging and listening to albums was when i started playing the guitar and even though i was inspired to pick it up by Linkin Park, as i got better and getting into tech stuff like Necrophagist, i fell into the trap of evaluating everything by its technicality and Slipknot were instantly written off as a joke band with too many members and no riffs that would ever compare without even giving them a proper listen beyond a couple of singles and catching shit like Snuff on TV and laughing it off. And even after listening to the self-titled a couple of years after that i only liked Eyeless and thats largely because of Joey's famous intro video and the ending breakdown. It wasnt until another year or two later when i got into more emotionally driven music like metalcore/post-hardcore like early Norma Jean and decided to also explore all the nu-metal i missed out on that i truly became a fan of Slipknot and now at this stage id easily name the self-titled as a top-3 or top-5 90's album in all genres.

It is a very good, a heavy, a unique, emotionally driven album that covers grounds one can only truly understand beyond the surface level at 25+ age. I find the notion that theyre for teenagers very wrong. They wrote those songs in their mid-late 20s, same goes for a lot of the music by many nu-metal bands. I dont think its realistically possible for a teenager with little life experience to actually relate to that music beyond the surface level of heaviness/edginess or whatever. I do think it is some of the best types of music if you want really personal, really emotionally driven and human experience-based stuff. And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music. And as such i do think that early Slipknot were a 100% authentic, unique and original band. Now, past-Iowa is another story, but music fans in general and metalheads in particular should reassess their views on them i think.


I have to disagree with this, mostly because it relies on premises that aren't true. Slipknot didn't change their sound to be more metal or to have a broader appeal within the metal community. Not only were they doing just fine while being a nu-metal band, but if you've ever watched or read any interview with members of the band, they've always firmly believed that they were a metal band, and outside of diehard metalhead communities, this is exactly how they are perceived by the vast majority of people. Corey Taylor, in documentaries and interviews refers to Slipknot as a metal band. Following the passing of Joey, the band shared a montage video of Joey moments with the band, including one where he says that Iowa is the best metal album of all time.

Slipknot didn't change their sound to be "more metal", they changed it because they wanted to explore other things. When they released Vol. 3, I was a diehard fanboy of the band. I could name all the musicians with their numbers and I made little drawings of them and their masks in my high school agendas. I was not a "real" metalhead at the time. I did like Children of Bodom, Kalmah, InFlames, Megadeth and Maiden, but I didn't have any form of disdain for nu-metal, and I truly loved Vol. 3 when it came out. Not because it was more metal, but because I liked the song-writing, the riffs, Corey's vocals, the drums, the percussions, and I loved how they were reinventing themselves. They had new masks. Clown had this steel keg that he was hitting with a baseball bat in the Duality video (I know it's stupid to like them for that, but I thought it was cool), and I liked the imagery within the album booklet, and the new masks.

By the time All Hope Is Gone came out, I was starting to lose interest in the band, but as a diehard fan, I still bought the album within giving it a single listen first. It was okay, but none of the songs stuck with me. Most nu-metal bands had died out by that point, and the only surviving acts of the time, like Disturbed or Linkin Park, had turned to alternative rock, and it felt like Slipknot were also toying with more rock elements, and leaving out the aggression that defined them early on.

Then the band released .5 The Grey Chapter, which according to the band was their lowest point. So even if they had started to toy with more commercial friendly ideas on AHIG, the band itself didn't perceive itself as creatively bankrupt, losing speed or anything. But on The Grey Chapter, they didn't really enjoy what they were doing all that much anymore.

Now to address the whole idea that nu-metal is secretly not for teenagers and that you have to be older to fully understand it... this just feels really off to me. You're basing this solely on your own experience and ignoring the fact that their entire fanbase was at the time of Iowa was basically 15-25 years old. I also had that phase in my life in which I judged quality based on technicality, but that came later. So maybe you missed on Slipknot as a teenager, but I still firmly remember kids in high school talking about the new Left Behind videoclip. One kid in my art class was talking about how clown has a pentagram carved into his face and eats his own thumb while there is blood spewing over his hands and face. The whole videoclip was very dark, dirty, and it played to this very common emotion that teenagers have, the feeling of being left out, abandonned, treated as a weirdo, an outsider. In the video they even have a young teenage boy being bullied by other teenagers.

I mean, sure, there are subtleties, little intricate details that you might not be able to appreciate fully as a teenager, but there is a reason why this music was so popular with teenagers, and it's because of how raw and violent it is. You don't have to be English literature major to understand "People=shit" or lines line "I've felt the hate rise up in my, kneel down and clear the stone of leaves, I wander out where you can't see, inside my shell I wait and bleed" or "Fuck it all! Fuck this world! Fuck everything that you stand for! Don't belong! Don't exist! Don't give a shit! Don't ever judge me!" These speak to things that teenagers feel. Emotionnal rushes. Emotions they don't fully understand. The need to figure out where they fit it, who they are, and what they want to be. The sadness and anger of being left out, bullied, mocked. Rebellion. Forming their own ideas and beliefs. The struggles of interpersonnal relationships.

Sure, these things can speak to the human condition in general, but they are expressed in a way that appeals to teenagers.

I'm also kind of unsure as to what sentences like this mean "And i do think it was the actual reason it connected with so many people. Sure there were a lot of accidental fans as with anything, or a lot of kids that grew out of it, but those were not the true target audience of their music." Like... how can you know? You're still presuming stuff based on your own experiences and giving the band intentions they probably never had. For instance, I was a "true fan" of the band from the s/t up to Vol. 3, and then I eventually lost interest, even in their early material that I only revisited on occasions. Was I "not the target audience" all along? There is something very presumptous, maybe accidentaly but still, about how you're trying to define the "true" Slipknot fan, and you are somehow it. It has to be someone who likes the s/t and Iowa, nothing else, but who also never ends up liking these two albums less, because there is apparently only one way to really appreciate them.

To focus this back on Joey a little bit, I'd argue that he, and the other musicians in the band were most definitely convinced that they were a metal band. They probably didn't care much for the whole "Is nu-metal really metal or not?" debate, and they were surely convinced that they were just pushing the genre further. Which they were. Regardless of if you think of their music as metal or not, Slipknot were something else entirely. And to Joey's defense, the guy implemented elements of so many different metal genres in his stuff, that he was basically playing metal drums anyway. Most of his blastbeats were very much death metal if you ask me!


Interesting journey through Slipknot fandom. I was much the same when Vol. 3 came out. I had just discovered the band about the time they went on hiatus following the Iowa tour and I was absolutely obsessed. I was around 12 or 13 at the time and they just completely blew me away. They were the most extreme thing I'd ever heard, up until that point. Plus as a horror movie guy, the whole image made them even more of a total package "favorite band" for me. I will say, they lost me after Vol. 3 by a large margin. Maybe it was age, who knows, but the older I got, the less interested I became in following them and their music post Iowa. For Vol. 3 in particular, it was a myriad of things that came together to make it less appealing to me, for whatever reason. The song writing is solid and is most definitely one of their strongest outings in that respect, but the screaming vocals, the production, and the atmosphere just felt very weak to me in comparison to the aggressive onslaught that was Iowa. I have nothing but respect for them and in no way make the leap that they "sold out" or any such nonsense, it's just a matter of personal taste. I will always hold their first two albums as being sacred. But for them, who knows where my taste in music would have landed. Other bands (Mudvayne in particular) definitely contributed as well, but Slipknot was far and away the band that I latched on to the most that adapted my ears to more extreme music.
_________________
"Death has come to your little town, Sheriff."

Top
 Profile  
Ace_Rimmer
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 2193
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:37 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
I hated Slipknot at first, without listening to a single note of their music. I was in the UK studying (since 1996) and everywhere you looked it was the same: Roots Sepultura, Korn, Machine Head, Fear Factory, Cradle of Filth and then Slipknot. And those were the good ones, there was also hed(pe), Pitchshifter and a bunch of other nobodies that the UK press thought were the next leaders of the scene. The magazines (Kerrang! was particularly terrible), the kids, the black hair with red streaks, the huge combat boots and a huge disdain for anything remotely old school. Iron Maiden was releasing crap so that didn't help either. So, Slipknot was just another band that I figured was part of all that and I just defaulted to "fuck this shit".

When I came down to Greece for summer holidays, my younger sister played me the first track off the debut without telling me what it was. And I was really impressed, particularly with the whole sound and the percussion (mix of drums and the other stuff). So, that changed my mind about their music although I never lost my disdain for the style and their crowd I guess.

However, I will agree with whoever said that their main problem is that they have 4-5 songs that are actually really good and a whole lot of filler. Which is something I feel about Roots too incidentally. Picking the best songs from the first three would make an incredible album though.

In any case, Joey was a great drummer. Not really a god but a great drummer nevertheless and his contribution to the instrument was inspiring a lot of people to pick up the sticks and go for it. A real shame.

[b]For the record, I think both Slipknot and System of a Down belong in the archives.[/b]


After digging though more of their stuff I can't see why they aren't. Are there modern rock passages in their songs and other stuff? Sure. But most of this riffage I'm hearing is metal. It would be interesting to see how many 0% reviews came in though if they were. Oh well.

And back on the topic of the drummer. His double bass is pretty fucking tight along with fills and rolls. I have to say I have been very impressed listening to him play. Fuck I'm going to end up picking up a couple Slipknot albums now...I'm crossing the Rubicon!

Top
 Profile  
des91
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 123
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:59 pm 
 

Much respect to Joey and Slipknot for getting people into underground Metal, including myself.

But even back then, I thought a lot of their first two albums were filler. I mean it was pretty much full on groovish metal mixed with other genres so it was pretty much legitimate Metal to my ears, at least on Iowa. But even that album has just way too much stuff that does nothing for me. I remember liking their self titled more because it seemed more focused and memorable. But not by a whole lot if I’m being honest.

I actually dropped them after maybe six months and started finally getting into the Big 4, Maiden and Priest. I will say they were VERY unique though. Nobody sounded really anything close to them, nor probably ever will. They’re whole image was memorable and unique which really intrigued me, even though the music just didn’t click with me too much. Not knocking these guys though, they have respect here. Should they be on the archives? Not my or our decision of course but I’d say Iowa is a true Metal album. Everything else not sure and I’d say no to the first album.

Top
 Profile  
Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2280
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:31 pm 
 

I think the best argument is that they're groove metal enough, especially if you compare some like modern Decapitated or Soulfly to them. But in all, they're really not one genre of music- metal, hard rock, nu metal. There's generally a lot of different genres of rock they hybridize that it's hard to exactly pigeon hole them. Are they Nu Metal? I mean, not compared to Limp Bizkit or Rage Against The Machine, by a long shot. Are they metal? I mean, not like metallica or Immortal or Blind Guardian, by a long shot. Are they hard rock? I mean, not compared to Nickelback, Godsmack, or Aerosmith. But they're enough of all of these that it's hard to call it either way.

I definitely think the context of when they rose to fame is really important to remember. Because back in the 00's it was super easy to categorize them as nu metal, point to a song like "Spit it Out" or "Only One" and be like "Hear the rap influence? Nuff said". For me, with a bit of distance, I don't exactly feel that way anymore, but I'm still very hesitant to call them a metal band.

Either way, all that is really unimportant to me. They're just a damn good band. It's especially sad for me that Joey's death occurred right now, because over this past year I've really found myself getting back into them quite a bit. Not gonna lie, it stings more than any other musician's passing I've ever had happen in my lifetime. I'm still grieving.
_________________
Last.fm

Top
 Profile  
Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:44 pm 
 

Unorthodox wrote:
I think the best argument is that they're groove metal enough, especially if you compare some like modern Decapitated or Soulfly to them. But in all, they're really not one genre of music- metal, hard rock, nu metal. There's generally a lot of different genres of rock they hybridize that it's hard to exactly pigeon hole them. Are they Nu Metal? I mean, not compared to Limp Bizkit or Rage Against The Machine, by a long shot. Are they metal? I mean, not like metallica or Immortal or Blind Guardian, by a long shot. Are they hard rock? I mean, not compared to Nickelback, Godsmack, or Aerosmith. But they're enough of all of these that it's hard to call it either way.

I definitely think the context of when they rose to fame is really important to remember. Because back in the 00's it was super easy to categorize them as nu metal, point to a song like "Spit it Out" or "Only One" and be like "Hear the rap influence? Nuff said". For me, with a bit of distance, I don't exactly feel that way anymore, but I'm still very hesitant to call them a metal band.

Either way, all that is really unimportant to me. They're just a damn good band. It's especially sad for me that Joey's death occurred right now, because over this past year I've really found myself getting back into them quite a bit. Not gonna lie, it stings more than any other musician's passing I've ever had happen in my lifetime. I'm still grieving.

Agreed. Besides, arguing over whether or not Slipknot is a "true" metal band is pretty much the most tedious, boring, and unfun metal discussion you can have at this point in time.
_________________
Under a serpent sun... we shall all live as one! - "Under a Serpent Sun" by At The Gates
Check out my reviews

Top
 Profile  
HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2627
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:54 pm 
 

NecroRAM wrote:
Im against the idea that those expressions are exclusively relatable to teenagers only or that the whole album was written in that vein.
Take Metabolic off of Iowa.

Also my comment about what they were supposed to be should be taken as an outside observation with a 20/20 hindsight, sure the band couldnt have possibly known what they were creating and what long-term influence and relevancy it would have. They couldve just as well not make it that big, like quite a few other bands of the time, Cold being a prime example. Now im not trying to define what a true fan should be, but to me personally its clear that with any music, especially heavier genres, theres always people who "grow out" of it and to me thats just a clear cut indication that they never belonged and that it didnt speak to them to the core. Of course not speaking of the edge cases. The proof for that are all the fans that, well, didnt grow out of it and are still fans or even became one later on in life. Im always against the notion that certain music is for teenagers only and ive found many examples of older people liking shit that to me is utterly disgusting, primitive and unrelatable.

Sure my experience is limited to me only but something tells me the whole stereotype of "it being only for kids" has been formed and perpetuated by the same limited number of people that liked them for a moment in their teens then grew out and are now extrapolating their experience over everybody. People always trying to paint themselves and the average human better than they are: that for some reason an adult couldnt or shouldnt feel a certain way or write certain music/lyrics because its "for kids" or whatever.

Maybe you didnt continue to experience confused feelings into your adulthood, thats why its now less relevant to you, not trying to put you down or anything, just saying. Though i find it highly unlikely as everyone is struggling in some way and those struggles and responsibility and seriousness only become larger but much more subtle to notice as life goes by. In school your real major problem is bullies, in adulthood, you face real rejection by people, friends, employers, love interests, theres much more confusion, apprehension and self-consciousness about how and when you should behave, etc, etc. All of that eats at your mind and i find that that music would still talk to anyone who had the chance to appreciate Slipknot.


I was not trying to argue that Slipknot's lyricism, as a whole, was shallow. Of course they have songs with deeper meaning, and lyrics that do not stay at the surface/aren't superficial. When Vol 3. came out, I liked that some of the lyrics were more introspective and intricate. So even as a teenager I appreciated this.

To try and suggest that the people who liked them more for their abbrasive, violent, raw and simple lyrics were not "real fans" or the "real target audience" is also missing the point. I'm going to jump forward to the part where you reiterate this idea that people who grew out of their music were not the target audience or the real fans to begin with, and point out the fact that if it wasn't for these "fake fans" who grew out of Slipknot later, they would have never made it big. Slipknot's success relies heavily on songs like Wait and Bleed, Surfacing, (sic), Left Behind, People=Shit and the lyrics. This doesn't take anything away from their other songs, but to ignore that this was the main appeal for a good chunk of their fans whom you are now suggesting weren't real fans to begin with, you're ignoring the fact that Slipknot wouldn't be Slipknot without these fans, whom you deem to have never belonged.

There is something extremely reductive in this definition that you are making of a real fan, especially considering how very arbitrary you are tracing the lines of what fits and doesn't fit within the definition of a true Slipknot fan. Somehow, without consideration for their own perspective on their own work, you are arguing that only the s/t and Iowa are important, and that real fans of Slipknot should love these without any fluctuation in their appreciation of the album, and without any kind of criticism towards the album. As if you need to be a religious zealot of Slipknot to actually "belong".

Considering the millions and millions of ways you can appreciate, experience, enjoy, interact and connect with music, with all the millions of emotions, events, contexts, personal growth and experiences, that affect the way we experience and relate to music, this kind of definition is extremely narrow. And if only the fans you describe as "true fans" ever cared about Slipknot, they would have never gotten out of their basement.

I get what you mean when talking about people who are trying to restrain Slipknot as a band that would be only for kids because they, themselves have liked them only as teenagers and moved away from over time. This is also a very common thing for a lot of "ex-metalheads" who have this very stupid and shallow perspective of a genre they hardly ever explored themselves, but which they deem to be juvenile because they "outgrew" metal and now have much more "sophisticated" and "adult" tastes in music. Of course, these people are fucking stupid and do not matter here. From this point onward, let's just say that we agree on this, and that I'm not talking about them specifically when talking about people who might have stopped liking or liking Slipknot less then before. Because I think there are valid reasons to like them less, and still not have been a "fake fan". For instance, myself, I know that what bothers me with Slipknot is that some of the songs don't have good hooks, or have generic "heavy" nu-metal riffs, which I perceive as weak elements of the music. I'd like to enjoy their music, but the riffs tend to hinder my appreciation of the music, not so much because of their simplicity, as I love grunge or doom metal with simple riffs, but because of their lack of memorability. They just don't stay with me, and eventually I tend to focus all my attention on the drums and vocals, because the guitars are subpar.

Again, I might have misspoken earlier when I said that their lyrics appeal to teenagers because of the emotions and feelings they deal with. I didn't mean to say that these are irrelevant to adults, I meant that they have a special meaning to teenagers, who often feel lost and thrown into their teenage years without much to rely on. I'm not saying that this stops being true for adults, as adults can feel like outcasts, abandonned, betrayed, lost, struggling with interpersonal relations, and so on and so forth, but these early memories of teenage years when you feel lost and you hear a band that seems to be writing music just for you, is something very unique, very strong and that takes roots deeply into you as a person. There's a reason why so many fans had undying, fanboy-like love for Slipknot, and it's because they strongly related to these lyrics. Don't get me wrong, these kinds of connections can still form later in life. But there is a reason why people are nostalgic of the music they liked as teenagers.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Empyreal, hells_unicorn, LithoJazzoSphere, Sestren, tahu157, ThStealthK and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group