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Oblarg
Veteran

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:50 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
But, at the same time it does feel like anything that doesn't fit the moderators political views is grounds for being banned around here.


Which particular political views?
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1127
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:58 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Maybe point at someone who was banned for just voicing a different opinion? Saying "a different political point of view than the moderators is potentially a bannable offense now" sounds awfully close to "we shouldn't ban racists/misogynists/white supremacists/etc".


Haha.

Yea, that's not what I'm saying.
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:13 pm 
 

Well just look at the last few dozen posts in this thread. At least two separate people were given warnings that they were one strike away from being banned. I didn't see any racism, misogyny, or white supremacy in their posts.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30237
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:22 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Well just look at the last few dozen posts in this thread. At least two separate people were given warnings that they were one strike away from being banned. I didn't see any racism, misogyny, or white supremacy in their posts.


The "finger pointing in the capital" thing deserved it for sure.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8582
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What is this "baiting" rule? It looks like any sarcasm with a different political point of view than the moderators is potentially a bannable offense now. Does everyone have to walk around on eggshells?

Chill, nobody has been banned. The edit notes on warned users, as well as the actual posts I make telling people to knock it off, should be self-explanatory. Or were you just taking this opportunity to complain about how people with a "different political point of view" are discriminated, or whatever?

Discuss in good faith, don't say or imply any vile shit, and don't formulate your messages in a way that's meant to get a rise out of people, and you're good. And don't give me that "both sides" crap.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:58 pm 
 

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:19 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What is this "baiting" rule? It looks like any sarcasm with a different political point of view than the moderators is potentially a bannable offense now. Does everyone have to walk around on eggshells?

Chill, nobody has been banned. The edit notes on warned users, as well as the actual posts I make telling people to knock it off, should be self-explanatory. Or were you just taking this opportunity to complain about how people with a "different political point of view" are discriminated, or whatever?

Discuss in good faith, don't say or imply any vile shit, and don't formulate your messages in a way that's meant to get a rise out of people, and you're good. And don't give me that "both sides" crap.


It's just that the line of what is deemed appropriate here appears to me blurrier than before. Some bans I've seen over the last year or so are for obvious trolls spewing garbage. In over 20 years of posting at various places I've never been banned or even warned before, but times have changed and the rules seem murkier. I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said. One of the topics on the main page is titled "Capital Riot supporter Stu Block rejoins Into Eternity", which to me appears engineered specifically to get a rise out of people, and several people, including myself, noted that the veracity of the claim is far from clear. Yet there is no warning given there. You can try it dismiss it as "both sides" if you want, but it's confusing what is allowed to people who may have a different opinion about the matter at hand. I'm mostly just here to discuss music, but some topics seem increasingly fraught with land mines.

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1144
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:30 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What is this "baiting" rule? It looks like any sarcasm with a different political point of view than the moderators is potentially a bannable offense now. Does everyone have to walk around on eggshells?

Chill, nobody has been banned. The edit notes on warned users, as well as the actual posts I make telling people to knock it off, should be self-explanatory. Or were you just taking this opportunity to complain about how people with a "different political point of view" are discriminated, or whatever?

Discuss in good faith, don't say or imply any vile shit, and don't formulate your messages in a way that's meant to get a rise out of people, and you're good. And don't give me that "both sides" crap.


It's just that the line of what is deemed appropriate here appears to me blurrier than before. Some bans I've seen over the last year or so are for obvious trolls spewing garbage. In over 20 years of posting at various places I've never been banned or even warned before, but times have changed and the rules seem murkier. I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said. One of the topics on the main page is titled "Capital Riot supporter Stu Block rejoins Into Eternity", which to me appears engineered specifically to get a rise out of people, and several people, including myself, noted that the veracity of the claim is far from clear. Yet there is no warning given there. You can try it dismiss it as "both sides" if you want, but it's confusing what is allowed to people who may have a different opinion about the matter at hand. I'm mostly just here to discuss music, but some topics seem increasingly fraught with land mines.

I fully agree Litho. Nuff said. I'll just tip toe outta here past all those land mines.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30237
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:32 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What is this "baiting" rule? It looks like any sarcasm with a different political point of view than the moderators is potentially a bannable offense now. Does everyone have to walk around on eggshells?

Chill, nobody has been banned. The edit notes on warned users, as well as the actual posts I make telling people to knock it off, should be self-explanatory. Or were you just taking this opportunity to complain about how people with a "different political point of view" are discriminated, or whatever?

Discuss in good faith, don't say or imply any vile shit, and don't formulate your messages in a way that's meant to get a rise out of people, and you're good. And don't give me that "both sides" crap.


It's just that the line of what is deemed appropriate here appears to me blurrier than before. Some bans I've seen over the last year or so are for obvious trolls spewing garbage. In over 20 years of posting at various places I've never been banned or even warned before, but times have changed and the rules seem murkier. I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said. One of the topics on the main page is titled "Capital Riot supporter Stu Block rejoins Into Eternity", which to me appears engineered specifically to get a rise out of people, and several people, including myself, noted that the veracity of the claim is far from clear. Yet there is no warning given there. You can try it dismiss it as "both sides" if you want, but it's confusing what is allowed to people who may have a different opinion about the matter at hand. I'm mostly just here to discuss music, but some topics seem increasingly fraught with land mines.


Calling what happened on Jan 6 "waving a finger in the capital" basically signifies that you're an ignorant shithead though, same as the topic you mention in your post which was also inaccurate. But the first example is way worse.

"Different opinions" are fine but increasingly signify right wing garbage when brought up in this way even if I don't think you personally mean it that way.

Just to be clear Schaffer was intending to instill fascist rule in the US with his actions.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 651
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:40 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said.


To be fair, you have spent much of the past week coming up with new and unusual ways of downplaying Schaffer's actions.
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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:04 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Calling what happened on Jan 6 "waving a finger in the capital" basically signifies that you're an ignorant shithead though, same as the topic you mention in your post which was also inaccurate. But the first example is way worse.


I took it to be somewhat of a joke, but the poster would have to clarify that. I believe it initially said he was banned for that post, and I don't know if it was a forum glitch or if a mod altered the decision after to make it a warning instead.

Rodman wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said.


To be fair, you have spent much of the past week coming up with new and unusual ways of downplaying Schaffer's actions.


Well, for some people anything short of demanding his execution is "downplaying" it. I just try and inject some nuance into conversations, which I find isn't always appreciated. I've said numerous times that I don't support what he did. And maybe because IE was one of my favorite bands a couple decades ago I'm prone to being overly sympathetic and excessively charitable in not taking the most cynical possible view of what he intended to do. There's no shortage of people "downplaying" anything about Varg and others either, so people should be able to understand the frustrating tension. It's just worrisome that there seems to be a tighter and tighter box being constructed around how we can discuss these topics.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30237
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:11 pm 
 

It was pointless to make this post so I deleted it
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Last edited by Empyreal on Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8582
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:40 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's just that the line of what is deemed appropriate here appears to me blurrier than before. Some bans I've seen over the last year or so are for obvious trolls spewing garbage. In over 20 years of posting at various places I've never been banned or even warned before, but times have changed and the rules seem murkier. I'm not even conservative/Republican/Trump-supporting/far right-wing/etc., but my political opinions do at times diverge from what I've ascertained that the general consensus is here, and sometimes it's challenging to know what can be said. One of the topics on the main page is titled "Capital Riot supporter Stu Block rejoins Into Eternity", which to me appears engineered specifically to get a rise out of people, and several people, including myself, noted that the veracity of the claim is far from clear. Yet there is no warning given there. You can try it dismiss it as "both sides" if you want, but it's confusing what is allowed to people who may have a different opinion about the matter at hand. I'm mostly just here to discuss music, but some topics seem increasingly fraught with land mines.

If you're concerned about any post breaking the rules wrt. baiting or trolling, feel free to report them. It's not once or twice that a forum user has been confused about what appeared to them as inconsistent enforcement of rules, that it turned out that mods simply weren't aware of something happening.

As for the Stu Block thing, well, there's no doubt about the veracity of the claim; the only doubt is whether you believe his excuses after he backed out on it. Although he later condemned "ANY acts of violence or anything else that ANY protester or rioter was involved in", he didn't even condemn the capitol riot itself.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:20 pm 
 

That didn't seem necessary to me, I don't mind a reasonable, good faith discussion. The OP didn't even really defend the claim after he was challenged on it.

As to Block specifically, his statement included:

"I absolutely DO NOT condone nor do I support ANY acts of violence or anything else that ANY protester or rioter was involved in on January 6th at the US Capitol building."

I'm not sure how much more clear you can be. To allege that he's a liar and that he secretly supported it all along and continues to do so in spite of his statements to the contrary would require more proof.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:52 pm 
 

The whole "condemning any riot" thing is often some kind of dogwhistle to also say the BLM protests or whatever else are bad, too.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:00 pm 
 

Also bearing in mind that during the riot, he absolutely supported it. He just walked back when shit started hitting the fan.

So no. The OP wasn't being facetious at all.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5745
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:02 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That didn't seem necessary to me, I don't mind a reasonable, good faith discussion. The OP didn't even really defend the claim after he was challenged on it.

As to Block specifically, his statement included:

"I absolutely DO NOT condone nor do I support ANY acts of violence or anything else that ANY protester or rioter was involved in on January 6th at the US Capitol building."

I'm not sure how much more clear you can be. To allege that he's a liar and that he secretly supported it all along and continues to do so in spite of his statements to the contrary would require more proof.


Ridiculous. He wrote this, and his "explanation" of that post was like a 6 year old explaining how his hand accidentally fell into the cookie jar. Are you looking to buy a bridge? Because I have a great one to sell you. Your "well, actually if you look at the exact syntax and vocabulary of his condemnation you can see that it totally reverses what was obviously on its face the case originally" is as I said, ridiculous.
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Kalaratri
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 1199
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:44 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The whole "condemning any riot" thing is often some kind of dogwhistle to also say the BLM protests or whatever else are bad, too.


In this case he's specifically talking about any and all actions of the Capitol Hill rioters though, not making any allusions to BLM protests or anything else. I don't see how that's at all a dog whistle when he makes it very clear who he's talking about.

To quote Stu's explanation for that Facebook post:

Quote:
I do want to extend my apologies for the poor way I worded two Facebook posts on January the 6th. I'm human and I make mistakes. My wording was absolutely misunderstood and not properly thought out on my part and I know people and media can interpret things differently.

"At that moment I saw a historical thing happening that perhaps would cause divide amongst people everywhere so I sent love out to everyone as well. I quickly took the post down after I realized that the post I put up with good intentions to encourage discussion about what was happening at that moment was severely misinterpreted by some. This was all happening before I found out about the horrible line that was crossed that day by protesters. I also carelessly misread a comment someone posted on my official Facebook page and replied incorrectly and for that I am sorry. I was in the heat of the moment. In the post, the commenter said: 'Are you condemning what happened today Stu?' I replied: 'and where in my statement would you get that impression?' In the craziness of responding to so many comments, some very hateful in nature which were also coming at me in rapid fire, I read the word as 'condoning' which I DO NOT!!


I think it goes without saying that this is not a very convincing explanation by any means, and it's by no means unreasonable to believe that he just bullshitted the whole thing because people were coming down on him hard for the Facebook post. My own opinion is that he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed and the kind of guy who mouths off about events before he even knows the full details of what happened.

Unless there's evidence that comes out that points to it, I don't think he's the sort of far-right QAnon believing asshole that Schaffer is. He's not a US citizen and has no actual impact on anything that goes on politically in the country. He also, as far as I know, is not a member of any far-right political movements in Canada (where he actually lives) and has shown no desire to foment any sort of insurrection in his own right.

All of this is not to say that he shouldn't be lambasted for what he posted, or that people aren't within their rights not to support him or any of his future endeavors. But for me, it's a stretch to call him some sort of diehard supporter of the insurrection or to believe he currently supports what happened on Jan 6. The guy put out statements condemning the actions of the rioters in the end, and I think he realized he fucked up by posting what he posted on Facebook. He posted something stupid, got called out on it, and apologized. In the absence of further evidence, that's where it ends for me.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:14 pm 
 

The full quotations:

Stu Block wrote:
"First I want to thank everyone for the amazing support you have shown. Unfortunately It has come to my attention in recent days about a screenshot someone made. There were some very obsessive hateful people posting the screenshot that I did have to remove from my social media."

"I do want to extend my apologies for the poor way I worded two Facebook posts on January the 6th. I'm human and I make mistakes. My wording was absolutely misunderstood and not properly thought out on my part and I know people and media can interpret things differently."

"At that moment I saw a historical thing happening that perhaps would cause divide amongst people everywhere so I sent love out to everyone as well. I quickly took the post down after I realized that the post I put up with good intentions to encourage discussion about what was happening at that moment was severely misinterpreted by some. This was all happening before I found out about the horrible line that was crossed that day by protesters. I also carelessly misread a comment someone posted on my official Facebook page and replied incorrectly and for that I am sorry. I was in the heat of the moment. In the post, the commenter said: 'Are you condemning what happened today Stu?' I replied: 'and where in my statement would you get that impression?' In the craziness of responding to so many comments, some very hateful in nature which were also coming at me in rapid fire, I read the word as 'condoning' which I DO NOT!!"

"I see that this inaccurate misinterpreted screenshot has been shared on various social media pages and I want to go on record to say this AGAIN:
I absolutely DO NOT condone nor do I support ANY acts of violence or anything else that ANY protester or rioter was involved in on January 6th at the US Capitol building."

"If you follow me, you know I am generally a man of Peace, Kitties and Music. I do believe in peaceful protest and expressing your grievances , I believe in questioning authority when it's appropriate, but I also believe that it should be done in a peaceful, respectful and intellectual manner and within the confines of the law."

"Again I apologize for any confusion. That's it that's all. I have been and will be taking a social media break and this is the only time I will ever address this inaccurate misinterpreted screenshot."

"Much Love and Stay Strong."


Here's the joint statement shortly after the incident from the other members that Stu signed.

Iced Earth wrote:
"We want to thank those of you who have sent words of support in recent days. Some of you have been concerned by our silence, which we understand. We needed some time to properly process the information and find out some facts before we made a statement.

We absolutely DO NOT condone nor do we support riots or the acts of violence that the rioters were involved in on January 6th at the US Capitol building. We hope that all those involved that day are brought to justice to be investigated and answer for their actions."

With broken hearts we are sending our love and compassion to everyone who has felt pain from the events on January 6th. We are deeply saddened and our hearts go out to the families of the lives lost that day. There are really no proper words to console. Just know we are with you in your shock, grief and pain. Much love to you all.

Stu, Luke, Jake, Brent"


If you want to say you believe him to be insincere, that is your prerogative. It is a possibility, certainly, but at best, it made him a supporter in the early minutes/hours before much of anything was clear about what had happened there. People say things on social media all the time and then delete or retract them soon after. It's a very flawed temporal medium that allows for hot takes where people opine based upon incomplete information. Stu's statements and actions since then have been to distance himself from the situation, which is the exact opposite of active support. He condemned the incident and left the band, I don't know else you think he's supposed to do. It's way too easy in this day and age to try and judge a person's character by a handful of cherry-picked statements. But by weird coincidence, Block just talked about the situation again in an interview, where he said,

""We all make bad decisions, man, and [Jon] fucked up real bad. And I'm sure he knows it, and I think everybody with half a brain knows it… The line that was crossed with going in and all that kind of stuff… He had so much going on. It was a shame."

So over half a year later and that's not what I would expect a "supporter" of the events to say.


Last edited by LithoJazzoSphere on Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5745
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:14 pm 
 

@Kalaratri: good post

Schaffer is the kind of guy who writes formatted, footnoted, spelling and grammar checked 10,000 word essays about how Hugo Chavez rigged every Dominion voting machine in America. Stu is the kind of guy who writes comments on Pornhub about female ejaculation.
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oldmetalhead
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Posts: 233
Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:04 am 
 

Interesting discussion, I'm just catching up on, been on vacation and blissfully unplugged from all media for the week.

Reading through, I still stand by what I originally thought. Schaffer is dead to me, if anybody wants to buy my CD's from him, let me know. I won't destroy them, that's just stupid, I already had paid for them but as they aren't anything that special to me, I have no problem not listening to them again. Any future endeavor's Jon Schaffer or Joe Kramer or whatever his new name is when he get's out of his imprisonment, won't get any interest from me.

Stu Block get's a pass from me, when he posted what he did, I don't think he knew exactly what was happening. I am glad to see him back with Into Eternity and look forward to what they do going forward.

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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 651
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:24 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
@Kalaratri: good post

Schaffer is the kind of guy who writes formatted, footnoted, spelling and grammar checked 10,000 word essays about how Hugo Chavez rigged every Dominion voting machine in America. Stu is the kind of guy who writes comments on Pornhub about female ejaculation.


Genius.
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