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mirons
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Latvia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:08 am 
 

Face_your_fear_79 wrote:
Eat me alive and a lesser extant Love Bites from Priest's DOTF.

Although I have no real problem with either track both one them were most probably controversial.

Eat Me Alive certainly was.


Sexual innuendos are quite common with Judas Priest, so I don't see any reason to single these two out (especially Love Bites, which is basically an eroticized tale of a vampire). The line about forcing at gunpoint might be viewed as controversial though, I guess.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5593
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:48 am 
 

My favorite part of the whole Eat Me Alive debacle is the "gunpoint" part. Like, he doesn't have an actual gun, you guys. It's his wiener. The gun is his wiener.
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TheBurningOfSodom
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 am
Posts: 189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:55 pm 
 

Something that often gets overlooked is 'Mutilation' by Death - everybody knows that, lyric-wise, Chuck had come a long way since his first releases, yet I hardly see anybody noticing he even managed to throw the good ol' f-word (the homophobic one) in Scream Bloody Gore.

Nothing against Death, obviously, early Death especially. Just a trivia.
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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1730
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:02 pm 
 

TheBurningOfSodom wrote:
Something that often gets overlooked is 'Mutilation' by Death - everybody knows that, lyric-wise, Chuck had come a long way since his first releases, yet I hardly see anybody noticing he even managed to throw the good ol' f-word (the homophobic one) in Scream Bloody Gore.

Nothing against Death, obviously, early Death especially. Just a trivia.


I don't know if that was controversial for its time as lots of metal artists were throwing that word around - James Hetfield and Dave Mustaine on stage for example, but also the general use of "gay" in a derogatory sense. Halford coming out did a lot in changing how most thought about homosexuality in metal...

I don't think Chuck and Death seriously raised eyebrows or got a conversation going with those lyrics.
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TheBurningOfSodom
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 am
Posts: 189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:38 pm 
 

Yeah in all honesty I didn't have any clue about whether it really was controversial... so I just mentioned it out of the blue. The fact that it's usually overlooked certainly makes more sense then :lol:

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Halford coming out did a lot in changing how most thought about homosexuality in metal...

I can only imagine that as well, but thinking that, that day, a lot of people woke up and found out that the "Metal God" was actually homosexual seems huge. Without JP metal would be very different of course, but not only strictly music-wise.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 742
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:59 pm 
 

MikeyC wrote:
As someone who works for the police (not a cop), they all try and do good things but get burned out by the neverending paperwork and all the domestics. They're generally a good bunch of people. I'm also talking from an Australian context, so it might have no weight.


Yeah, it doesn't really have weight. Australians do things differently... I actually heard a pretty interesting take on this, from a cop on a podcast no less, that was speaking of American police. His basic point was: "It's a precinct specific thing and it's won in the middle ground. Each precinct has some good people who signed up to be police with earnest intentions, it also has people who are corrupt/racist/etc. on the other side... And it's really about which side the middle-of-the-road cops fall in line with. If most of them agree with the 'good guys' then that precinct is not going to let the corruption fly. If people are indifferent or side with the 'bad guys' then that precinct will be one of the corrupt ones."

Police departments are 'old boys clubs' and they aren't going to tell on each other, so his thought is that there are both good and bad precincts and that always made sense to me. Although I do think that the job itself is a bad one and a poor life choice for those who sign up for it.

That said, none of that debate has anything to do with the topic so moving back to it.... How did mainstream music listeners let Ringo Starr get away with "You're 16, You're Beautiful (And You're Mine)"???

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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:58 pm 
 

wraithlike wrote:
I'd take a lone church burner before a system that protects the people committing summary executions on unarmed black kids on the regular. the immorality is not even comparable.


I'm not going to try to compare the two, but think of the churchgoers, especially the elderly and immigrants, who have nothing much in life other than going to a church that offers encouragement and friendship and a warm coffee on a Sunday. How do they feel to see a place that means a huge amount to them just destroyed for no reason* by young black metallers? It's equivalent to asking how a football fan would feel to see his/her favorite stadium destroyed - both buildings mean a huge amount to their devotees.

*And I take that "but you destroyed our shrines 1,000 years ago" to be a stupid reason, honestly. Do people arguing this know or care about other abuses and crimes that took place 1,000 years ago? No, not at all.

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Liquid_Braino
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Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:25 am
Posts: 568
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:13 pm 
 

Maybe not controversial in a sense that it's fairly underground but as much as I like Atrocity's first two releases, I've never enjoyed "Deep in Your Subconscious" from Hallucinations.

I get the sentiment and context, but I just can't hang with a guy growling from the point of view of a 4 year old girl being brutally raped by her dad. Not a fun listen despite the technically advanced death metal for its time.

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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 154
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:50 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
That said, none of that debate has anything to do with the topic so moving back to it.... How did mainstream music listeners let Ringo Starr get away with "You're 16, You're Beautiful (And You're Mine)"???


Why would they have had a problem with it? It's just a love song.

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Cheapsteaks
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:02 pm
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:35 pm 
 

collingwood77 wrote:

I'm not going to try to compare the two, but think of the churchgoers, especially the elderly and immigrants, who have nothing much in life other than going to a church that offers encouragement and friendship and a warm coffee on a Sunday. How do they feel to see a place that means a huge amount to them just destroyed for no reason* by young black metallers? It's equivalent to asking how a football fan would feel to see his/her favorite stadium destroyed - both buildings mean a huge amount to their devotees.

*And I take that "but you destroyed our shrines 1,000 years ago" to be a stupid reason, honestly. Do people arguing this know or care about other abuses and crimes that took place 1,000 years ago? No, not at all.


Too bad none of those angsty church burners don't have the balls to go after mega churches that funnel money to bigot politicians and instead go after historic black churches and small churches.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:26 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
That said, none of that debate has anything to do with the topic so moving back to it.... How did mainstream music listeners let Ringo Starr get away with "You're 16, You're Beautiful (And You're Mine)"???


Why would they have had a problem with it? It's just a love song.


About an underaged girl...

EDIT: Ringo was 33 when that song was released.

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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 848
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:02 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Invocation wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
That said, none of that debate has anything to do with the topic so moving back to it.... How did mainstream music listeners let Ringo Starr get away with "You're 16, You're Beautiful (And You're Mine)"???


Why would they have had a problem with it? It's just a love song.


About an underaged girl...

EDIT: Ringo was 33 when that song was released.


16 is not underrated in all countries.
Now if he had sung about a 13 year old girl


No, wait, let's talk Jerry Lee Lewis & Myra Gale Brown
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l Lunaris l
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Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:14 pm
Posts: 135
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:33 am 
 

Cheapsteaks wrote:
collingwood77 wrote:

I'm not going to try to compare the two, but think of the churchgoers, especially the elderly and immigrants, who have nothing much in life other than going to a church that offers encouragement and friendship and a warm coffee on a Sunday. How do they feel to see a place that means a huge amount to them just destroyed for no reason* by young black metallers? It's equivalent to asking how a football fan would feel to see his/her favorite stadium destroyed - both buildings mean a huge amount to their devotees.

*And I take that "but you destroyed our shrines 1,000 years ago" to be a stupid reason, honestly. Do people arguing this know or care about other abuses and crimes that took place 1,000 years ago? No, not at all.


Too bad none of those angsty church burners don't have the balls to go after mega churches that funnel money to bigot politicians and instead go after historic black churches and small churches.


Because church burners aren't concerned about the complex reality of religion and modern Christianity. Churches are burned because "religion bad, church bad". This is my main problem with most anti-religious sentiment, especially in metal. There is no room for nuance or discussion of the actual issues with Christianity or any other religion.

Real satanist movements can be great, (The Satanic Temple in the US proved that to me) and criticism of religion is super important. Which is exactly why the black metal scene as a whole is so disappointing to me. It tends to be the worst version of both of those things.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:23 pm 
 

morbert wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:

About an underaged girl...

EDIT: Ringo was 33 when that song was released.


16 is not underrated in all countries.
Now if he had sung about a 13 year old girl


No, wait, let's talk Jerry Lee Lewis & Myra Gale Brown


It is considered underage in many countries though... not to mention that he was twice the age at the time.

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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 154
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:40 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
morbert wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:

About an underaged girl...

EDIT: Ringo was 33 when that song was released.


16 is not underrated in all countries.
Now if he had sung about a 13 year old girl


No, wait, let's talk Jerry Lee Lewis & Myra Gale Brown


It is considered underage in many countries though...


By "many countries" do you actually just mean some states in the US? Because 16 isn't underage anywhere in Europe apart from Ireland and Cyprus.

Bingewolf wrote:
not to mention that he was twice the age at the time.


The song is a cover and it's not even clear the song is meant to be from his perspective, it could be from the point of view of her boyfriend.

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collingwood77
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:36 pm 
 

l Lunaris l wrote:
Cheapsteaks wrote:
collingwood77 wrote:

I'm not going to try to compare the two, but think of the churchgoers, especially the elderly and immigrants, who have nothing much in life other than going to a church that offers encouragement and friendship and a warm coffee on a Sunday. How do they feel to see a place that means a huge amount to them just destroyed for no reason* by young black metallers? It's equivalent to asking how a football fan would feel to see his/her favorite stadium destroyed - both buildings mean a huge amount to their devotees.

*And I take that "but you destroyed our shrines 1,000 years ago" to be a stupid reason, honestly. Do people arguing this know or care about other abuses and crimes that took place 1,000 years ago? No, not at all.


Too bad none of those angsty church burners don't have the balls to go after mega churches that funnel money to bigot politicians and instead go after historic black churches and small churches.


Because church burners aren't concerned about the complex reality of religion and modern Christianity. Churches are burned because "religion bad, church bad". This is my main problem with most anti-religious sentiment, especially in metal. There is no room for nuance or discussion of the actual issues with Christianity or any other religion.

Real satanist movements can be great, (The Satanic Temple in the US proved that to me) and criticism of religion is super important. Which is exactly why the black metal scene as a whole is so disappointing to me. It tends to be the worst version of both of those things.


Excellent comment. Yes, it is the nuance which is needed. I think Christians could learn from reading some of the best Deicide lyrics and some black-metallers could learn from a sermon or two!

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Hexenmacht46290
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:35 pm 
 

Pentagram. The compilations of their 70s material. The first one is higher production value. Great music. The second one(First Daze Here Too) is shocking though, for two reasons. First, it’s rehearsal and demo quality. It’s really raw recording, which is unintentionally good. Good, because it’s a completely different style, and an interesting, different side of the band. It exists, in that 70s borderland(same as Cirith Ungol’s orange album), where the rawness, of both production and performance, makes it heavier and more extreme, in ways that probably were considered “wrong,” in early metal(although punk was able to see the value in it, at an earlier age).

The second reason isn’t so much shocking, as just disappointing. It’s cock rocking is even greater than the other 70s material, with Bobby Liebling saying he’s going to “take you to your virgin death.”

In context, with knowing his long history, of ripping off band mates, sexual harassment scumfuck behavior, never having a job, and beating up his 87 year old mother(while living in her house), for heroin money, it’s not really excusable. Victor Griffin, stop enabling him! Stop doing all the work, for him to keep getting money and attention.

I know he isn’t very popular on this forum, recently, but compare that to Wino. Stupid conspiracy beliefs, and used the death, of Eric Wagner, to accuse everyone who disagreed with him of being “jealous haters,” yes. But, I have way more respect for someone, who sang a song, in his 20s, telling the objective truth about alcohol, even if he still loves drinking it, in his 60s, who doesn’t use his alcohol and meth addiction, as an excuse, to be a total piece of shit. Even if addiction is some sort of physical “disease,” everything surrounding it is still a choice, and Bobby Liebling never makes good choices, and keeps getting enabled.

l Lunaris l wrote:
Because church burners aren't concerned about the complex reality of religion and modern Christianity. Churches are burned because "religion bad, church bad". This is my main problem with most anti-religious sentiment, especially in metal. There is no room for nuance or discussion of the actual issues with Christianity or any other religion.


Black metal is, in general, better than other genres, at actually being creative, with the music, but the worst, at lyrics. Immolation has some of the best, most intelligent anti-religion lyrics, but black metal usually just goes for edgelord stuff, about raping Mary and Jesus and angels, or if it’s actually advocating something, it’s usually people claiming to be “pagan,” who aren’t, and instead just agree with the values of Christian theocracy, and jack off to Hitler. As an ex-Christian, I wish more black metal would actually talk aboutwhy to hate Christianity, and all the other religions as well.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:49 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
not to mention that he was twice the age at the time.


The song is a cover and it's not even clear the song is meant to be from his perspective, it could be from the point of view of her boyfriend.


You're right, it's not even clear... so why would one assume it's from someone else's perspective? By the way, Johnny Burnette was 26 when he put out the original. And Ringo's version of it went to #1 in America. My whole point is not to kill Ringo over this - I was pointing out that it was so common and accepted at the time, that a BEATLE made a song about being with a 16-year-old and no one questioned it.

You can go down the line of artists from the 80's backward who did similar or worse songs. My point is that, somehow, this was acceptable back then. Take a gigantic mainstream pop act of this era and put them there... let's say the Jonas Brothers put out a song about dating a 16-year-old next month... Think about how that would go over.

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mirons
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Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 12:59 pm
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Location: Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:56 am 
 

The age of the author notwithstanding, isn't it possible that the song refers to the past, when the person from whose viewpoint it is written would have been of similar age as the girl the song is about? True, that it is not verifiable, but it's a plausibility.

Billy Idol was 30-31 when Sweet Sixteen came out, but 1) it is well known that the song is written from another man's viewpoint; 2) the man in question, Ed Liedskalnins, was at most in his early 20s when he got rejected by the 16 year old girl; 3) the story happened sometime between 1905 and 1910, when 16 year old brides wasn't out of the ordinary in most of the world.

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wraithlike
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:57 am 
 

mirons wrote:
The age of the author notwithstanding, isn't it possible that the song refers to the past, when the person from whose viewpoint it is written would have been of similar age as the girl the song is about? True, that it is not verifiable, but it's a plausibility.

Billy Idol was 30-31 when Sweet Sixteen came out, but 1) it is well known that the song is written from another man's viewpoint; 2) the man in question, Ed Liedskalnins, was at most in his early 20s when he got rejected by the 16 year old girl; 3) the story happened sometime between 1905 and 1910, when 16 year old brides wasn't out of the ordinary in most of the world.


you are doing way too much legwork for grown ass men writing songs about desiring minors.

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Cheapsteaks
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:02 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:00 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
Black metal is, in general, better than other genres, at actually being creative, with the music, but the worst, at lyrics. Immolation has some of the best, most intelligent anti-religion lyrics, but black metal usually just goes for edgelord stuff, about raping Mary and Jesus and angels, or if it’s actually advocating something, it’s usually people claiming to be “pagan,” who aren’t, and instead just agree with the values of Christian theocracy, and jack off to Hitler. As an ex-Christian, I wish more black metal would actually talk aboutwhy to hate Christianity, and all the other religions as well.


It really is all about the edge for those super outspoken Antichristian bands and lashing out against authority despite on a fundamental level agreeing with them on most social issues.

It's probably why so many Edgy Online Atheists (of the fedora sort) veered to weird tradcath bullshit. Speaking of that, we are so close to some incredibly cringey one man basement Tradcath black metal bands, aren't we? I rue that day.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm 
 

wraithlike wrote:
mirons wrote:
The age of the author notwithstanding, isn't it possible that the song refers to the past, when the person from whose viewpoint it is written would have been of similar age as the girl the song is about? True, that it is not verifiable, but it's a plausibility.

Billy Idol was 30-31 when Sweet Sixteen came out, but 1) it is well known that the song is written from another man's viewpoint; 2) the man in question, Ed Liedskalnins, was at most in his early 20s when he got rejected by the 16 year old girl; 3) the story happened sometime between 1905 and 1910, when 16 year old brides wasn't out of the ordinary in most of the world.


you are doing way too much legwork for grown ass men writing songs about desiring minors.


BINGO! I really didn't expect to get so much pushback from saying "hey, isn't it creepy that all these adult men were singing songs about underaged girls???"

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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:51 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
wraithlike wrote:
mirons wrote:
The age of the author notwithstanding, isn't it possible that the song refers to the past, when the person from whose viewpoint it is written would have been of similar age as the girl the song is about? True, that it is not verifiable, but it's a plausibility.

Billy Idol was 30-31 when Sweet Sixteen came out, but 1) it is well known that the song is written from another man's viewpoint; 2) the man in question, Ed Liedskalnins, was at most in his early 20s when he got rejected by the 16 year old girl; 3) the story happened sometime between 1905 and 1910, when 16 year old brides wasn't out of the ordinary in most of the world.


you are doing way too much legwork for grown ass men writing songs about desiring minors.


BINGO! I really didn't expect to get so much pushback from saying "hey, isn't it creepy that all these adult men were singing songs about underaged girls???"


But 16-year-olds aren't underage though.

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Hexenmacht46290
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:20 pm 
 

Cheapsteaks wrote:
It's probably why so many Edgy Online Atheists (of the fedora sort) veered to weird tradcath bullshit. Speaking of that, we are so close to some incredibly cringey one man basement Tradcath black metal bands, aren't we? I rue that day.


Because they realized, that in a society with arranged marriage, they’d actually get laid. They’d just have to beg their parents, for dowry money. There would probably be some DSBM, hailing the supreme gentleman, and actually using incel online slang. I think it hasn’t happened, because they just can’t put down the video games, porn, Reddit, and anime, to actually get to writing some songs, even really shitty ones.
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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:

BINGO! I really didn't expect to get so much pushback from saying "hey, isn't it creepy that all these adult men were singing songs about underaged girls???"


But 16-year-olds aren't underage though.


Of course there are exceptions, however in most places it is considered underage... Also, just checking: if you had a 16-year-old daughter, how would you feel about a 33-year-old man dating her? Regardless of if you live in a place where consent is 16..

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Invocation
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:34 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Invocation wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:

BINGO! I really didn't expect to get so much pushback from saying "hey, isn't it creepy that all these adult men were singing songs about underaged girls???"


But 16-year-olds aren't underage though.


Of course there are exceptions, however in most places it is considered underage...


But it isn't though. In most places it is above the age of consent:



By "most places", do you just mean parts of the US?

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Ball Cupper
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:55 pm 
 

to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"
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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:07 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
TheBurningOfSodom wrote:
Something that often gets overlooked is 'Mutilation' by Death - everybody knows that, lyric-wise, Chuck had come a long way since his first releases, yet I hardly see anybody noticing he even managed to throw the good ol' f-word (the homophobic one) in Scream Bloody Gore.

Nothing against Death, obviously, early Death especially. Just a trivia.


I don't know if that was controversial for its time as lots of metal artists were throwing that word around - James Hetfield and Dave Mustaine on stage for example, but also the general use of "gay" in a derogatory sense. Halford coming out did a lot in changing how most thought about homosexuality in metal...

I don't think Chuck and Death seriously raised eyebrows or got a conversation going with those lyrics.


By that token, "Liar" by Megadeth would also be seen as problematic.

Plus, no one has thrown Razor under the bus for one or two of their songs.
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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:09 pm 
 

Liquid_Braino wrote:
Maybe not controversial in a sense that it's fairly underground but as much as I like Atrocity's first two releases, I've never enjoyed "Deep in Your Subconscious" from Hallucinations.

I get the sentiment and context, but I just can't hang with a guy growling from the point of view of a 4 year old girl being brutally raped by her dad. Not a fun listen despite the technically advanced death metal for its time.


"The Death of Innocence" by Dark Angel would probably be another song that falls in the same boat.

To be fair, Dark Angel did have an anti-child molestation message in the liner notes of Leave Scars, the album that song is from.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:50 pm 
 

Getting into a heated debate in defense of 30 year olds lusting after teenagers? Congratulations, some of y'all are starting to overlap with the worst parts of the anime community.
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wraithlike
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:06 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
Getting into a heated debate in defense of 30 year olds lusting after teenagers? Congratulations, some of y'all are starting to overlap with the worst parts of the anime community.


yeah sheesh is that shit not a bannable offense here? I feel like that's a real fucking bad look and we don't need pedo apologia garbage here.

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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:16 pm 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"


If someone wants to say that the age difference makes it creepy, then that's fine. It just bothered me the constant references to being underage as the justification when it isn't underage in most of the world. The other poster kept insisting it is in most places as if the US represents the whole world.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Veteran

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2632
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:16 pm 
 

Those sorts of songs are basically just an exploitation of the way we craft laws. Adult sites do the same things, advertising "just turned 18" and such. Someone 17 years and 364 days is not ok, but a day later it's all good and legal, which abstractly is a silly notion, but it's what we have to work with. Laws generally establish bright lines because having judges evaluating complexity and nuance in the real world is difficult. There are plenty of people in their 20s or even older who have the emotional maturity level of teenagers or younger and really aren't ready either. The inverse is also true in some cases, but it's just easier to set a line somewhere to limit the amount of potential abuse and manipulation. It's a little arbitrary, but sometimes things just are that way.

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Count_de_LaFey
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:25 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:35 pm 
 

I like the album Cold Lake by Celtic Frost, the album in which the band turned into Glam Metal. Even Tom Fischer himself hates the album.

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 742
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:04 pm 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"


Wilytank wrote:
Getting into a heated debate in defense of 30 year olds lusting after teenagers? Congratulations, some of y'all are starting to overlap with the worst parts of the anime community.


THIS! What the fuck, man....

Invocation wrote:
Ball Cupper wrote:
to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"


If someone wants to say that the age difference makes it creepy, then that's fine. It just bothered me the constant references to being underage as the justification when it isn't underage in most of the world. The other poster kept insisting it is in most places as if the US represents the whole world.


Again I ask, if you are a dad and your 16-year-old daughter is bringing home her 33-year-old boyfriend, how do you respond?

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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 154
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:15 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Again I ask, if you are a dad and your 16-year-old daughter is bringing home her 33-year-old boyfriend, how do you respond?


I would probably be pretty weirded out and suspicious. I would certainly want to talk to him about what exactly his interest in and intentions with my daughter were. I might advise my daughter to date someone younger, but I'd be worried she'd keep seeing him behind my back.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 839
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:15 am 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"


Yeah, legality is one thing, I guess if you're looking at a 19 year old and a 16 year old it's different than a 33 year old with a 16 year old.

I don't like to judge and interfere with other private affairs, but I have trouble imagining a 33 year old having genuine feelings for a 16 year old. I feel the relationship would be unequal, the 33 year old having in all likelihood advanced quite a bit in life, and presumably having the capacity to influence the 16 year old quite a bit.

That said I'm not sure how I feel about the songs; the "protagonist" of the song isn't always the writer, the writer could be nostalgic for his high school days, maybe longing for his first love? I don't know, I'm not sure I'd get my pitchforks over that, unless the context makes it clearer that it's pervy.

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wraithlike
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 228
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:10 am 
 

I wonder if y'all would defend Iggy Pop's Look Away just because 'aGe Of cOnSeNt is 12' in some places.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30389
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:12 am 
 

All those old rock stars seemed to have this sleazy, shady ass stories about underage girls. It always seemed to me that, even beyond their own transgressions, society itself just never gave much of a fuck back then. Thankfully it seems to be improving now.
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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 742
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:44 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
Ball Cupper wrote:
to be honest, legality isn't even the concern when talking about a Grown Ass Man being with a 16 year old. It's just creepy as hell, regardless of legality, and I'm consistently amazed at how many people dodge that and are all like "nuh-uh age of consent"


Yeah, legality is one thing, I guess if you're looking at a 19 year old and a 16 year old it's different than a 33 year old with a 16 year old.

I don't like to judge and interfere with other private affairs, but I have trouble imagining a 33 year old having genuine feelings for a 16 year old. I feel the relationship would be unequal, the 33 year old having in all likelihood advanced quite a bit in life, and presumably having the capacity to influence the 16 year old quite a bit.

That said I'm not sure how I feel about the songs; the "protagonist" of the song isn't always the writer, the writer could be nostalgic for his high school days, maybe longing for his first love? I don't know, I'm not sure I'd get my pitchforks over that, unless the context makes it clearer that it's pervy.


No, you get it... But it's just that... If a singer comes out and says, this is what I was thinking back in the day, I get it --- but if you just put out a song, everyone will assume you're talking about yourself (right or wrong). That's just where music is these days. If you don't tell us anything and then put out a song about hooking up with underage girls, we're all going to be like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS GUY DOING?"

wraithlike wrote:
I wonder if y'all would defend Iggy Pop's Look Away just because 'aGe Of cOnSeNt is 12' in some places.


Edgelords.. :lol:

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