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Kalaratri
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 2871
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:11 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Looks like Steelfest has pulled all bands from their website. I wonder if they've lost the fest entirely or if they're just waiting on things to die down and don't want more questioning about the bands on the bill.


It's not looking good for them, that's for sure. When even bands like Impaled Nazarene look like they're dropping off of your bill (they posted a list of tour dates for the remainder of 2021 and 2022 and Steelest wasn't mentioned at all) you're going to have a serious problem pulling off a festival of Steelfest's nature.

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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:14 am 
 

good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


just get the word out, seems to be all it takes.

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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 164
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:44 pm 
 

wraithlike wrote:
good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


What other festivals are you even talking about? Steelfest is the only festival that puts on these sorts of lineups.

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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:46 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
wraithlike wrote:
good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


What other festivals are you even talking about? Steelfest is the only festival that puts on these sorts of lineups.


is it? well even better then!

I could've sworn I've heard of more here and then but my brain could just be bugging out.

like I know I've seen this same kind of thread about a different festival but maybe this kind of thing just doesn't even get off the ground anymore

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doomicus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
Posts: 1261
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:09 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
wraithlike wrote:
good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


What other festivals are you even talking about? Steelfest is the only festival that puts on these sorts of lineups.


Asgardsrei, Never Surrender, and Hot Shower all book bands with sketchy, and often times blatant ties to NS affiliations. That's just off the tops of my head. There are tons of fests like this out there.
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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:12 pm 
 

Aside from those big ones, over the past few years there have been random nazi-friendly fests popping up around New Jersey and the Midwest. Usually Disma and their ilk are behind them.
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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:17 pm 
 

doomicus wrote:
Invocation wrote:
wraithlike wrote:
good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


What other festivals are you even talking about? Steelfest is the only festival that puts on these sorts of lineups.


Asgardsrei, Never Surrender, and Hot Shower all book bands with sketchy, and often times blatant ties to NS affiliations. That's just off the tops of my head. There are tons of fests like this out there.


narsilianshard wrote:
Aside from those big ones, over the past few years there have been random nazi-friendly fests popping up around New Jersey and the Midwest. Usually Disma and their ilk are behind them.


knew my brain wasn't just fried.

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Invocation
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
Posts: 164
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:38 pm 
 

doomicus wrote:
Invocation wrote:
wraithlike wrote:
good to see this nazi fest sinking and I hope it happens to more of them


What other festivals are you even talking about? Steelfest is the only festival that puts on these sorts of lineups.


Asgardsrei, Never Surrender, and Hot Shower all book bands with sketchy, and often times blatant ties to NS affiliations. That's just off the tops of my head. There are tons of fests like this out there.


I was unaware Never Surrender did that, but Asgardsrei and Hot Shower are proper far right events that book nothing but NSBM type bands. It's nothing like Steelfest as you would never get bands like Sodom or Dismember even being booked for those.

Steelfest was the only festival attempting this mixture of the NS and mainstream metal scene.

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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 2343
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:49 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Steelfest was the only festival attempting this mixture of the NS and mainstream metal scene.

I hope that's the first time any sketchy festival has tried to do that, and I especially hope it's the last time we ever see bands like Deicide and Sodom play in the same show as Peste Noire and Goatmoon.
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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:29 pm 
 

It's definitely not the first time. Check out this fest in 2010, fucking Pagan Altar playing alongside Goatmoon and Grand Belial's Key: https://www.last.fm/festival/1261347+Ha ... tival+2010

Hell's Headbash used to be really bad as well. I believe GBK played more than once, and they also had Satanic Warmaster and Inquisition playing alongside bands like Midnight and Acid Witch. I'm pretty confident there are hundreds of examples of this sort of thing. It's really only been in the past 3-4 years where more people started paying attention to this stuff and trying to do something about it.
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Bingewolf
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:46 pm 
 

Yeah, Steelfest is a mainstream fest who books nazi bands (and has gotten away with it until now. The fests mentioned above (Asgardsrei, Hot Shower) are blatantly neo-nazi festivals. In Europe, you will find those from time to time but you don't find mainstream bands playing them like Steelfest.

Hell's Headbash was definitely the last one (although very small in comparison to the scale of Steelfest) that I was aware of doing it in the US. People killed Yoshi/NWN for having sketchy bands on their lineups but Headbash had GBK, Satanic Warmaster, Nyog and fucking Intolitarian playing with bands like Incantation and Toxic Holocaust.

They went quiet right before people started getting called out for hosting nazis. The last post on their Instagram is teasing an interview with Antichrist Kramer and you can see them promoting GBK and more on the page: https://www.instagram.com/hellsheadbash/

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CreepingDeath16
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:49 am
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Location: Hyperborea
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:07 am 
 

The probable cancellation of Impaled Nazarene is supremely ironic. They are most likely given the choise between festivals like PartySan and Steelfest. One can only guess which one pays better...

By the way, there was a similar albeit much smaller incident surrounding the festival Turku Saatanalle ("The city of Turku for Satan") in 2017. They had booked, among others, Naer Mataron and Sielunvihollinen. The venue and other cooperation partners of the festival received a lot of complaints about these bands and the organizers were eventually forced to cancel their appearance. One of the replacement acts, Azaghal, opened their set with an Absurd cover, which is an apt anecdote about the Finnish scene's attitude towards nazism.
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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 1276
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:40 am 
 

Jeez is this topic still alive?
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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8816
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 am 
 

morbert wrote:
Jeez is this topic still alive?

Dunno what purpose you think this kind of snarky non-observations serve, but please refrain from making them.
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Floodland
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:58 am
Posts: 189
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:00 am 
 

CreepingDeath16 wrote:
The probable cancellation of Impaled Nazarene is supremely ironic. They are most likely given the choise between festivals like PartySan and Steelfest. One can only guess which one pays better...

By the way, there was a similar albeit much smaller incident surrounding the festival Turku Saatanalle ("The city of Turku for Satan") in 2017. They had booked, among others, Naer Mataron and Sielunvihollinen. The venue and other cooperation partners of the festival received a lot of complaints about these bands and the organizers were eventually forced to cancel their appearance. One of the replacement acts, Azaghal, opened their set with an Absurd cover, which is an apt anecdote about the Finnish scene's attitude towards nazism.


Yeah, what is it with you Finns and your fascination with everything nazi? You wouldn't last one minute under a true fascist regime, you know it, I know it.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:31 pm 
 

Its true that NWN books some sketchy right wing bands from time to time. They also absolutely book left wing bands, especially the bands they book from South America are p much always left. Yosi just doesn't care.

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 864
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:27 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
Its true that NWN books some sketchy right wing bands from time to time. They also absolutely book left wing bands, especially the bands they book from South America are p much always left. Yosi just doesn't care.


I don't recall him booking left-wing bands... usually either apolitical bands or ones with sketchy ties. Not saying you're wrong, just saying I'm unaware of that being the case. That said, the Hells Headbash shows were way worse than anything Yoshi's ever booked imo.

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thrashmaniac87
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:23 pm 
 

Satanic Warmaster playing a fest put on by Hells Headbaangers isn't surprising at all since HHR is the official distributer for Werewolf Records. People seem skittish to throw the NS tag at HHR due to their popularity.
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~Guest 389043
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:29 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
Its true that NWN books some sketchy right wing bands from time to time. They also absolutely book left wing bands, especially the bands they book from South America are p much always left. Yosi just doesn't care.


Yeah NWN happy to deal with nazis. Antichrist split up the first time so members could form this neo nazi band. Funny how the Antichrist biography always failures to mention same.

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Odin%27s_Law/19816

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 am 
 

thrashmaniac87 wrote:
Satanic Warmaster playing a fest put on by Hells Headbaangers isn't surprising at all since HHR is the official distributer for Werewolf Records. People seem skittish to throw the NS tag at HHR due to their popularity.


I remember a few years ago, Metalsucks published a story about it and all the metal forums flamed them and went nuts over it - so you're right that people are just letting it fly. And don't get me wrong, I bought some shirts and stuff from Hells back in the day... But they are definitely, at the very least, ok with nazis being in there circles. They also distribute Satanic Skinhead Propaganda... which also explains why Intolitarian played Headbash... and also comes full circle to GBK and the other bands.

IMO, Hells has done worse than I've ever known of NWN to do - not saying NWN isn't doing similar, but Hells just always seemed way more brazen about it.

Everflowingstream wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
Its true that NWN books some sketchy right wing bands from time to time. They also absolutely book left wing bands, especially the bands they book from South America are p much always left. Yosi just doesn't care.


Yeah NWN happy to deal with nazis. Antichrist split up the first time so members could form this neo nazi band. Funny how the Antichrist biography always failures to mention same.

https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Odin%27s_Law/19816


Oh yeah, that is right! And Antichrist's guitarist also has a band signed to Hendrik Mobus' label...

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narsilianshard
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Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:00 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
thrashmaniac87 wrote:
Satanic Warmaster playing a fest put on by Hells Headbaangers isn't surprising at all since HHR is the official distributer for Werewolf Records. People seem skittish to throw the NS tag at HHR due to their popularity.


I remember a few years ago, Metalsucks published a story about it and all the metal forums flamed them and went nuts over it - so you're right that people are just letting it fly. And don't get me wrong, I bought some shirts and stuff from Hells back in the day... But they are definitely, at the very least, ok with nazis being in there circles. They also distribute Satanic Skinhead Propaganda... which also explains why Intolitarian played Headbash... and also comes full circle to GBK and the other bands.

IMO, Hells has done worse than I've ever known of NWN to do - not saying NWN isn't doing similar, but Hells just always seemed way more brazen about it.


In response to that Metalsucks story, Matt Harvey from Exhumed published a defense of Hell's Headbangers, basically saying NSBM keeps metal evil and we should be okay with it (of course, Decibel later deleted the article without comment). Then he had the fucking gall to appear in those "metal against racism" videos last year like it wasn't completely hypocritical.

But yeah, it's been a long struggle with me but I'm done with Hell's Headbangers. Midnight and Zemial were huge in helping form my underground tastes but I'm done with the label. Been realizing it's probably not a coincidence their initials are HH and use the nazi SS runes in their logo. Glad to see Bandcamp finally took down the Werewolf page.
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worlock
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:07 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:22 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
use the nazi SS runes in their logo.


Which one of their logo variations is that?

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

worlock wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
use the nazi SS runes in their logo.


Which one of their logo variations is that?

I guess this one.

Image

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ghroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 151
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:32 pm 
 

Those are the S's from the cover of Sabbath Bloody Sabbath...

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worlock
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:07 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:33 pm 
 

... that's from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.

Image

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:23 pm 
 

Just so we're clear, just because it's also on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath doesn't mean it's not also the nazi SS symbol (it is). Sabbath, Slayer, etc. have also used nazi imagery before for shock purposes... It's a little different when you use nazi imagery AND release nazi bands AND book nazi bands on your shows.


narsilianshard wrote:
Bingewolf wrote:
thrashmaniac87 wrote:
Satanic Warmaster playing a fest put on by Hells Headbaangers isn't surprising at all since HHR is the official distributer for Werewolf Records. People seem skittish to throw the NS tag at HHR due to their popularity.


I remember a few years ago, Metalsucks published a story about it and all the metal forums flamed them and went nuts over it - so you're right that people are just letting it fly. And don't get me wrong, I bought some shirts and stuff from Hells back in the day... But they are definitely, at the very least, ok with nazis being in there circles. They also distribute Satanic Skinhead Propaganda... which also explains why Intolitarian played Headbash... and also comes full circle to GBK and the other bands.

IMO, Hells has done worse than I've ever known of NWN to do - not saying NWN isn't doing similar, but Hells just always seemed way more brazen about it.


In response to that Metalsucks story, Matt Harvey from Exhumed published a defense of Hell's Headbangers, basically saying NSBM keeps metal evil and we should be okay with it (of course, Decibel later deleted the article without comment). Then he had the fucking gall to appear in those "metal against racism" videos last year like it wasn't completely hypocritical.

But yeah, it's been a long struggle with me but I'm done with Hell's Headbangers. Midnight and Zemial were huge in helping form my underground tastes but I'm done with the label. Been realizing it's probably not a coincidence their initials are HH and use the nazi SS runes in their logo. Glad to see Bandcamp finally took down the Werewolf page.


Yeah, when I was younger and more naive, they had enough plausible deniability for me to miss it. That was also at a point where people weren't fully aware of Satanic Warmaster or some of those bands that were "media darlings" at the time too. So, I used to order some records and shirts from Hells back in the day and I found a ton of cool underground bands from them... To be honest, same with NWN or Moribund or some others... They kind-of hide in plane sight by putting out other stuff to (as opposed to straight NSBM labels that are easy to spot).

However, as you get more in-tune with what they're actually doing, it's hard to continue giving them a pass. I stopped with Hells when I found out that they were distributing Satanic Skinhead and working with Antichrist Kramer. There's absolutely no way to just look at the "art" there - that's straight up nazi bullshit.

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doomicus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:46 pm 
 

worlock wrote:
... that's from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.

Image


Yep, HHB even put out a label compilation using an altered take of the Sabbath Bloody Sabbath album art. It's obviously the reference point for that particular logo variation. Hells Headbangers definitely don't give a shit if they're slinging shady shit out of their distro or even working with shady bands/artists. But I also think they squarely fall into the "it's about the riffs, I don't care about the politics or lyrics" camp, rather than outright holding Nazi beliefs ect.

Image
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Count_de_LaFey
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:25 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:33 pm 
 

The organizers should grow a pair and admit that they wanted an NSBM festival from the begining. They seem to not care about Sodom or Deicide droping out. They could have cancelled all the nazi bands and keep all the mainstream ones. But no, they prefer to lose a lot of very important bands instead. I bet they are going to fill all the drop outs with more NSBM bands now.

I am glad to see the ship on fire anyways. The non-fash that agree to play with fascist bands should be called out as well, because that's a show of disrespect to their fans from other races, but they will still come to non-white countries for money.

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 864
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:11 pm 
 

Look, if we're being frank here, I know metalheads who like GBK because of how brutal it is and didn't realize what their message was... I get it. But Hells also distributes Satanic Skinhead, which is basically the same thing as saying "we distribute the US version of Darker Than Black" --- they distribute music that is explicitly, unapologetically, neo-nazi music... That's the difference... That's the kind of bail you can shoot YK/NWN because of the bands he decides to release. SSP is a nazi label that is clearly upfront about their ideals.

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cweed
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 541
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am 
 

I'm assuming metal tabloid sites like MetalSucks aren't very respected around here but do you all remember this?

https://www.metalsucks.net/2017/08/24/a ... remacists/

Count_de_LaFey wrote:
The organizers should grow a pair and admit that they wanted an NSBM festival from the begining. They seem to not care about Sodom or Deicide droping out. They could have cancelled all the nazi bands and keep all the mainstream ones. But no, they prefer to lose a lot of very important bands instead. I bet they are going to fill all the drop outs with more NSBM bands now.

I am glad to see the ship on fire anyways. The non-fash that agree to play with fascist bands should be called out as well, because that's a show of disrespect to their fans from other races, but they will still come to non-white countries for money.


Great points!
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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:57 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Look, if we're being frank here, I know metalheads who like GBK because of how brutal it is and didn't realize what their message was... I get it. But Hells also distributes Satanic Skinhead, which is basically the same thing as saying "we distribute the US version of Darker Than Black" --- they distribute music that is explicitly, unapologetically, neo-nazi music... That's the difference... That's the kind of bail you can shoot YK/NWN because of the bands he decides to release. SSP is a nazi label that is clearly upfront about their ideals.

Yeah, NWN always try to keep it non political even though they have a few sketchy bands (who doesn't to be honest). Hells has released blatant Nazi shit and distributes Nazi stuff too so there's really no way of ignoring that.

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MonumentalBlackArt
Magic Mike Jr.

Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 1906
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:01 am 
 

Bump for an interview if anyone is interested:

http://www.bardomethodology.com/article ... -air-2022/

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Hecatomb867
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:56 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:03 pm 
 

Well that interview was pretty much exactly what I expected it to be. Some chud promoter playing the victim because "cAnCeL kvlture".
There were a few interesting points made, however:

Quote:
I predict that this mess is going to keep growing and worsen. We can all see which way the wind is blowing


Yep, people are waking up to the fact that there are Nazis in the metal scene and it's a problem that needs to be rectified. Any sensible person would see this as a positive thing. It is funny to see the other side pull the victim card though.

Quote:
The music industry has swallowed a huge chunk of black metal and digested it to be presentable for a wider audience. And it’s not only the business machine: we all know that bands self-censor to make themselves more commercially desirable.


Yep, many bands go to great efforts to hide the fact that they are Nazi fuckwits. Interesting to hear someone on the other side of the fence acknowledge this. I guess background checking black metal bands really is necessary at times.

Quote:
I see this situation as a grand cleansing. Real black metal will shy away from mainstream events and retreat back into the depths of darkness.
In the future, this will surely encourage us to delve into even deeper paths of extreme metal.


So basically Steelfest is gonna devolve into some kind of Asgardsrei 2.0? Not surprising really...

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~Guest 280883
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 556
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:26 pm 
 

I wonder about the motives behind Bardo Methodology sometimes.

The majority of the interviews are with the sort of bands which belong to the are-they-or-aren't-they-nazi group, but which for the most part avoid saying anything outright. Then they get interviewed by BM and, what do you know, their inner nazi totally comes out, even if they still don't identify as such.

Part of me wants to think that the idea behind BM was "let's tailor the questions so that all these fuckers expose themselves once and for all". But more likely, BM shares those views.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Veteran

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3576
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:50 pm 
 

Hecatomb867 wrote:
Yep, people are waking up to the fact that there are Nazis in the metal scene and it's a problem that needs to be rectified.


I believe this is certainly true, but I think a sizeable but unknown percentage of them are effectively cosplaying. Pretending to be lucifer-worshipping, church burning, goat blood-drinking, child-sacrificing satanists is pretty old hat at this point and doesn't have the shock value it used to. But if you're a young rebellious edgelord who wants to be iconoclastic, piss your parents, society, and even other metalheads off? Start heiling Hitler instead of hailing Satan. I think this is way more common than people want to acknowledge, but I don't know how we distinguish the two groups, and I'm not sure what can be done about it.

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Curious_dead
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1476
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:01 pm 
 

I understand what you mean; maybe in 5-10 years, some people will regret their Nazi-tainted edgelord phase. Harder to come back from that and convince people you're not racist than a phase where you put corpsepaint and hailed Satan, or a phase where you called your shows "rituals"...

But at the same time, one cannot really be an ironic racist. They might not mean it, but they still do harm. So I don't think we should try to distinguish between the two. Rather, let's make it clear it's not ok, not even as shock value, to promote Nazism, so that less people do it because of an edgelord shock-value phase.

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Twisted_Psychology
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:13 pm 
 

Maybe if metal's notion of what constitutes as rebellion was based more on what you actually are rather than what you are not, it wouldn't look so childish at best and actively harmful at worst. Being LGBT or a person of color certainly seems to still have some shock value in certain metal circles...
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Hecatomb867
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:34 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Hecatomb867 wrote:
Yep, people are waking up to the fact that there are Nazis in the metal scene and it's a problem that needs to be rectified.


I believe this is certainly true, but I think a sizeable but unknown percentage of them are effectively cosplaying. Pretending to be lucifer-worshipping, church burning, goat blood-drinking, child-sacrificing satanists is pretty old hat at this point and doesn't have the shock value it used to. But if you're a young rebellious edgelord who wants to be iconoclastic, piss your parents, society, and even other metalheads off? Start heiling Hitler instead of hailing Satan. I think this is way more common than people want to acknowledge, but I don't know how we distinguish the two groups, and I'm not sure what can be done about it.


This is an incredibly naïve assertation. Especially since, by your own admission, you have no way to determine whether or not this is true and there's no way to quantify which bands are "cosplaying as nazis" and which ones are the real deal. Unless you can provide some kind of example of a band merely pretending to be NS for shock value than this statement is little more than ignorant, wishful thinking.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:48 pm 
 

Hecatomb867 wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Hecatomb867 wrote:
Yep, people are waking up to the fact that there are Nazis in the metal scene and it's a problem that needs to be rectified.


I believe this is certainly true, but I think a sizeable but unknown percentage of them are effectively cosplaying. Pretending to be lucifer-worshipping, church burning, goat blood-drinking, child-sacrificing satanists is pretty old hat at this point and doesn't have the shock value it used to. But if you're a young rebellious edgelord who wants to be iconoclastic, piss your parents, society, and even other metalheads off? Start heiling Hitler instead of hailing Satan. I think this is way more common than people want to acknowledge, but I don't know how we distinguish the two groups, and I'm not sure what can be done about it.


This is an incredibly naïve assertation. Especially since, by your own admission, you have no way to determine whether or not this is true and there's no way to quantify which bands are "cosplaying as nazis" and which ones are the real deal. Unless you can provide some kind of example of a band merely pretending to be NS for shock value than this statement is little more than ignorant, wishful thinking.


It's harder to tell right now because we're right in the middle of it, arguably the height of it. More will be clear years/decades from now. If your argument is that everyone who even has the slightest veneer of it actually is fully part of it, would you have said the same thing about all of the black metal bands a few decades ago? With the early scene more in retrospect, we now know that a certain amount of them actively were nasty, execrable people with harmful ideologies. But we've now seen many others move past that era and drop the facade. Or it's pretty clear that it's just disturbing, macabre theater that doesn't manifest in the real world. Again, some of it in both scenes was/is real, and that's a concern. It's probably more than I think and less than you think is my realistic guess, but historical trends and human nature tells me that at least some of it is fake.

Curious_dead wrote:
I understand what you mean; maybe in 5-10 years, some people will regret their Nazi-tainted edgelord phase. Harder to come back from that and convince people you're not racist than a phase where you put corpsepaint and hailed Satan, or a phase where you called your shows "rituals"...

But at the same time, one cannot really be an ironic racist. They might not mean it, but they still do harm. So I don't think we should try to distinguish between the two. Rather, let's make it clear it's not ok, not even as shock value, to promote Nazism, so that less people do it because of an edgelord shock-value phase.


My concern is the unintended consequences. These sort of people thrive off of pushing people's buttons and getting a reaction. To an extent, the more we make a big deal out of it, the more they're incentivized to do it more to get headlines. For the masqueraders it's attention-seeking behavior. When they commit actual crimes, yes, we need to throw the book at them, because that starts to become evidence that they're serious about it. But otherwise I tend to think that depriving them of the infamy they seek might be more effective. The strategy might be more along the lines of "don't feed the trolls."

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Hecatomb867
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:46 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's harder to tell right now because we're right in the middle of it, arguably the height of it. More will be clear years/decades from now. If your argument is that everyone who even has the slightest veneer of it actually is fully part of it, would you have said the same thing about all of the black metal bands a few decades ago? With the early scene more in retrospect, we now know that a certain amount of them actively were nasty, execrable people with harmful ideologies. But we've now seen many others move past that era and drop the facade. Or it's pretty clear that it's just disturbing, macabre theater that doesn't manifest in the real world. Again, some of it in both scenes was/is real, and that's a concern. It's probably more than I think and less than you think is my realistic guess, but historical trends and human nature tells me that at least some of it is fake.



I'm inclined to believe that bands that openly put fascist/Nazi insignia on their album covers, take band photos next to Nazi flags, perform at known extreme right wing music festivals (Asgardsrei, Hot shower) or release their music on labels with an obvious political slant, are very likely the real deal. There's very little in the way of plausible deniability in these cases. Historical trends and human nature tells me that these types of actions are most often serious. If you wanna give these guys the benefit of the doubt, that's your business.


LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
My concern is the unintended consequences. These sort of people thrive off of pushing people's buttons and getting a reaction. To an extent, the more we make a big deal out of it, the more they're incentivized to do it more to get headlines. For the masqueraders it's attention-seeking behavior. When they commit actual crimes, yes, we need to throw the book at them, because that starts to become evidence that they're serious about it. But otherwise I tend to think that depriving them of the infamy they seek might be more effective. The strategy might be more along the lines of "don't feed the trolls."



I'd agree with you here. Depriving these people of the infamy they seek is effective. But doing this means not giving them a platform, cancellation (shutting down shows and the like), not reviewing their new albums on websites etc. Give them no coverage or attention whatsoever and stamp it out when it happens. Let them fester in whatever cave they choose to inhabit.

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