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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30354
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:33 pm 
 

Dungeon_Vic wrote:
As for the thread, the most baffling comment is that Master of Puppets suffers from copying RTL's structure. That is, start with a banger (with a mellow intro), s/t at #2, "ballad" at #4 and I guess they reversed the instrumental/banger at the end.

My question is, how is THAT a disadvantage at all? It's only a pacing/ordering choice and it works wonderfully, why fuck with it?

It's like saying "that song is magnificent but unfortunately it's just verse/chorus, verse/chorus, solo/chorus". Or "yeah, Bolt Thrower is great but they keep playing that intro on almost every album" or "not Eddie again on the cover!".


Exactly... I think people just look too hard for "cons." You don't have to nitpick for critiques of every little thing or album. The Metallica album formula was just their style at the end of the day.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1903
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:32 pm 
 

How can they "look too hard" when it's what the thread is about? Pros and cons of every album, it's like a game more than legitimate criticisms.

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Oxenkiller
Veteran

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 3017
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:04 pm 
 

Well some things are so frivolous it's hardly worth mentioning as a "Con." Like criticizing the artwork, maybe? (Unless it's really hideously bad I seldom deduct any review points based on cover art.)

In the case of pacing/ordering of the tracks, if the majority of people found the pacing and ordering of the "Ride the Lightening" tracks to be a major flaw with that album, then it would probably be considered to be a flaw with "Master of Puppets" as well. But if the track order and pacing of the songs worked well for "Ride the Lightening," then it stands to reason it would also work well for "Puppets..." and hence should not be considered a "con." And I think few people do have issue with the order of the tracks on "Ride." I'd actually never noticed the similarity before someone pointed it out on this thread...

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Tornado
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm
Posts: 510
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:34 am 
 

Good morning (or afternoon, or evening, wherever you may reside), ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. I'm one of the people who mentioned Master of Puppets' tracklist for side 1 as a con and I'd just like to explain. I have no problem with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule that Metallica had back then, while arranging the tracklist for Master... It's just that Lars has commented many times over the years (right from the start, in fact), that Metallica are not a band that like to repeat themselves. Yet on Master... they did just that, by mirroring Ride the Lightning's side 1 tracklist (I guess after the success of Ride... they most likely attempted to recreate yet improve on that formular, which some may say they did with Master..., others may not). But you're right, it's not a major flaw. It's still a classic album. For many years it was my fave of theirs. It's certainly a close second, anyway, with Ride... just ahead. Cheerio!

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Gas_Snake
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:07 am
Posts: 111
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:30 am 
 

Kill 'Em All:

+ Most exciting Metallica album. That raw '83 proto-thrash swagger is badass incarnate.
- It still manages to meander with a few songs (Four Horsemen could have been shortened, Anesthesia just kind of... exists, I guess?)
One-upped by: Overkill - Feel the Fire (1985) (adrenaline and attitude).

Ride The Lightning:

+ Best thing they ever did. Aggression, variety, and songwriting so fucking tight that only a handful of albums can match it.
- You and I will never, ever be this good. There are still better thrash albums than it, but not by much.
One-upped by: nothing. I can't really name anyone that did its thing and did it better or even equally.

Master Of Puppets:

+ Best hooks and riffs of any Metallica album. First two tracks are amazing.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part 0.5. Meanders in many places, many songs feel "long for long's sake", if that makes sense.
One-upped by: Ride The Lightning (really I mean come on now).

AJFA:

+ Dyers Eve. Dyers Eve. Dyers Fucking Eve. Why would you put such a fuckbeast of a song right at the end?
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part 1. Powerless production, meandering songs, groove metal prototyping, whatever the fuck "Harvester of Sorrow" is supposed to be. You know all these hyperbolic sins MoP supposedly committed? I'd argue this one just shifted the blame on it like the obese slimeball that it is.
One-upped by: Heathen - Victims Of Deception (1991) (long thrash)

Black Album:

+ The way they exercised restraint here is a good thing. Most of these songs are catchy and get to the point without being pretentious.
- Other people aped it wayyy too much during the 90's instead of playing what they actually wanted to play (I still don't know the full story of what were the reasons for the so-called "dark ages" of true metal to turn out like this).
One-upped by: Kreator - Renewal (1992) (changing your sound properly).

Load, Reload:

+ Could possibly be enjoyable for someone who cares not for metallic excellence.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part 2. Hetfield's voice contracted retardation (how many YEAYEAH's is that, again)?
One-upped by: Metal Church - Hanging In The Balance (1993) (That nice kinda hard rockish feeling, but done competently and with actual balls)

St. Anger:

+ Can be enjoyed vicariously as a meme album for when you need to turn off your brain and cackle maniacally. Just make sure to turn it off when it gets tough.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part 3. You all know why it fucking sucks.
One-upped by: Lulu (it managed to make even more people salty, that is quite impressive IMO).

Death Magnetic:

+ They did something, I guess?
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part 4. Apes AJFA in all of its shitty things. Retarded lyrics. Falsely advertised as a good album.
One-upped by: Heathen - The Evolution Of Chaos (2009) (comeback album)

Lulu:

+ I AAAAMMMMM. I AAAAAAMMMM. If I cut off my legs and tits, I would ewfbifryerfneuigrbrfeubrgy
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part WHYYYY, MAAANNN???? Hard to pin down what the hell it even IS.
One-upped by: Your own legs and tits. I'm sure cutting those off would bring you much more pain.

Hardwired:

+ They ACTUALLY did something, I guess. Parts of this are the tightest and most aggressive they've been since MoP.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome: Part NO. NO. ... ... NOOOOOOOOOOO.
One-upped by: things that are less long. for the love of Satan's asshole why is this considered a good thing?

Black Album But Covered By Some Pop Guys:

+ Marco.
- Polo.
One-upped by: Who cares?

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Demon Fang
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:42 am
Posts: 201
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:51 am 
 

Gas_Snake wrote:
Hardwired:

+ They ACTUALLY did something, I guess. Parts of this are the tightest and most aggressive they've been since MoP.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome

It's more "Too Many Fucking Songs" than anything else. Could easily cut a good three or four out of there and it'd be a lot peachier.

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Kalaratri
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 1264
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:10 pm 
 

Demon Fang wrote:
Gas_Snake wrote:
Hardwired:

+ They ACTUALLY did something, I guess. Parts of this are the tightest and most aggressive they've been since MoP.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome

It's more "Too Many Fucking Songs" than anything else. Could easily cut a good three or four out of there and it'd be a lot peachier.


Yeah, I think with Hardwired you could make a pretty good album if you cut a bunch of filler and self-edited some of the longer tracks. The album did not need to be over an hour long.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30354
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:24 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
Demon Fang wrote:
Gas_Snake wrote:
Hardwired:

+ They ACTUALLY did something, I guess. Parts of this are the tightest and most aggressive they've been since MoP.
- Too Fucking Long Syndrome

It's more "Too Many Fucking Songs" than anything else. Could easily cut a good three or four out of there and it'd be a lot peachier.


Yeah, I think with Hardwired you could make a pretty good album if you cut a bunch of filler and self-edited some of the longer tracks. The album did not need to be over an hour long.


If it was just the first disc plus "Spit Out the Bone" it'd be their best thing since Justice.
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Space_alligator
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 438
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:19 pm 
 

Gas_Snake wrote:

Ride The Lightning:


- You and I will never, ever be this good. There are still better thrash albums than it, but not by much.

One-upped by: nothing. I can't really name anyone that did its thing and did it better or even equally.


>there are better thrash albums

>one upped by nothing

Explain yourself sir
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Gas_Snake
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:07 am
Posts: 111
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:02 am 
 

There are better thrash albums, but they all do completely different things from Ride The Lightning. Things like Feel The Fire or Darkness Descends or Deception Ignored are albums that I like more, but you all can agree they don't sound anything like Metallica in what they're attempting to convey to the listener. However, as for things that sound similar to RtL or ape it directly, no one's managed to even touch it (I could go out on a limb and say MAYBE Heathen, but the vocals and leads and even song structures just aim for a whole different feeling).

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des91
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 141
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:09 am 
 

I like Victims of Deception but I’d still take RTL over it. Not a fan of the paste three tracks on Deception for the most part.

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The_Grindcrusher
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:46 pm
Posts: 34
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:21 am 
 

I haven't listened to every Metallica album but I'll do the ones I have listened to:

Kill Em' All

Pros: Fast and angry as hell, not the most technical record ever, but it's definitely thrash
Cons: Bit too long, this album would've worked better if it was 35-45 minutes, but nearly an hour is too long for me to replay it consistently

Master Of Puppets
Pros: Very memorable, obviously the title track's great but you also got stuff like Orion, Battery, Disposable Heroes
Cons: Feels a bit same-y at parts, but I can excuse that

Black Album
Pros: A very fun listen, not the most serious album and Enter Sandman is the most overplayed metal song in history, but it's fun and I put it on every so often
Cons: This was the beginning of their descent into commercial mediocrity, alot of songs are very radio-friendly.

St. Anger
Pros: Vocals are good, riffs are pretty neat, and I've grown on the snare sound over the years
Cons: Has a very angsty early 2000s nu-metal feel to it, and unlike KEA which is a bit too long but is still serviceable, this album just drags on and on

Death Magnetic
Pros: A bit thrashy and less commercial then previous effort, still commercial but not as bad as, say, Load and Reload
Cons: Absolute dogshit production.

That's all the ones I've listened to, I might do the other ones later though.
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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 537
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:35 am 
 

Oh alright then:

KEA
Pros: Good headbanging fun.
Cons: Inadequate production, most of the songs had Mustaine's hand in them but he didn't play on the record which affects it a bit (imagine this album with Dave on it!) and some people seem to think that this was the best Metallica album and that RTL was a sell out because it had Fade To Black on it, which has to be one of the stupidest musical opinions I've ever heard.


RTL
Pros: Great song writing, GREAT production, great cover art, the first of the great Metallica instrumentals. Fantastic vibe to the album, wintry, icy cold, vibrant power. Metallica's pinnacle and one of the greatest thrash/HM albums ever.
Cons: None.


MOP:
Pros: Further developments in the song writing bring about some of the best moments of Metallica's career - title track, Orion (they should have just tried a full instrumental album at some point in the 80s). Deservedly venerated.
Cons: RTL is better from both a consistency and production standpoint. The production of MOP is probably the most inadequate on any Metallica record pre 2003 - way too flat and uninteresting, the album lacks the vibe of RTL and could probably benefit from a remix job. Most of the songs here sound much better either live or on the demos.


AJFA
Pros: Very bleak album but with a relentless determination behind the songs. The infamous lack of bass actually helps here, as it gives the whole album a very antiseptic feel which suits the vibe of the material. Metallica's most complex and intense album with technical riffage everywhere and further progression in song structures. The title track is very underrated. This era was the band's live pinnacle.
Cons: Not an easy listen, can be impenetrable at first. A couple of weaker songs. The lack of Burton's contributions apart from TLITD makes for a record with less variety than the previous two, and the fact that Newsted is marginalised doesn't help matters. The live versions of the songs here are better because you can hear the bass.


Metallica
Pros: A more commercial direction, but done with aplomb. Look behind the singles and there are some good deep cuts here. The band had probably taken the Justice style as far as possible, so a move to shorter and catchier songs feels right. A classic rock album for the 90s, with confidence, swagger and a band on top of their game. Fantastic production job, one of the all time great examples of how to balance heaviness and accessibility.
Cons: Metallica were never the same band after this album and the tour for it, as they moved from being the ultimate underdog success story into the biggest concert draw on the planet. The singles are good but horrendously overplayed. My Friend Of Misery should have been an instrumental as originally intended and putting vocals on it was totally unnecessary. Holier Than Thou is shite.


Load
Pros: Not a sell out album. This is Metallica realising they have the time, money and license to do what the heck they like. Fantastic brooding and confessional atmosphere to a lot of the songs here, a deeply personal album for Hetfield, The Outlaw Torn has to be one of the top 5 or 10 Metallica songs ever.
Cons: Too much filler (2x4). No Newsted song writing credits which was something of a wasted opportunity, he could have added some more variety when needed. Feels like more of a Hetfield solo album in some ways.


ReLoad
Pros: Similar to Load but more experimental in places. Again, a brooding, confessional vibe. Newsted contributes at last on the excellent Where The Wild Things Are. Low Man's Lyric is absolutely fantastic and one of their most underrated ballads.
Cons: The filler is still a problem, and really the best songs from Load/Reload should have been released as a single album, which would have been the best of Metallica's career after RTL. Also (probably because of the title), a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that this is an album of Load outtakes (and thereby inferior) and it's just not. The situation with Load/Reload is very similar to GnR's Use Your Illusion records, in that all the songs were written at the same time and were of equal validity. It's just that GnR recorded and released all of their material in one go, and Metallica did it in two sessions in 95/96 and 97.


St. Anger
Pros: None.
Cons: The worst album of all time. Makes Turbo sound like Master Of Reality. Terrible song writing. No guitar solos. Genuinely unlistenable thanks to the snare drum sound - you can't even ignore this and let it play in the background. The moment when Metallica quit their place at metal's top table and left the way clear for Maiden.


DM
Pros: The Day That Never Comes is the best Metallica song released this century so far.
Cons: Brickwalled production and very forced song writing for the most part. A record made with the intention of pleasing the fanbase instead of being what the band genuinely wanted to make artistically.


Lulu
Pros: Iced Honey is interesting. Nowhere near as bad as St. Anger and I have to wonder what some people are on when they claim it's worse.
Cons: An experiment which doesn't work, for the most part. Metallica and Lou Reed do not mesh well sonically. That said, was anyone surprised at the outcome of this, given that Metallica were working with a guy who once released a double album of feedback to get out of a record contract?


HWTSD
Pros: Much better than DM and the best thing Metallica have released for nearly 20 years, which says more about the paucity of good output post 2000 than the relative quality of this album. Nevertheless, there are some good songs here - the first two, Halo On Fire and Confusion being the best ones. Hetfield regains some of the attitudes and styles of the Load era but matches them to some more thrashy music which works quite well. The production is a notable improvement from the band's 00s releases.
Cons: Too long and has some filler. Still seems forced in places. No Hammett credits at all which again makes it more of a Hetfield solo album than anything. While a decent album, lacks coherence and focus.

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