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OnlyZeusIsFree
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:42 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:45 pm 
 

I'm not sure how Crust Punk gets lumped in as punk. It's not, it has less in common with punk than it does with metal. Powerviolence is the logical extreme of hard core punk, but crust is more like a missing link in metal, somewhere between heavy metal and death metal.

Change my mind.

It should be crust metal.

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Kalaratri
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 1278
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:57 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
I'm not sure how Crust Punk gets lumped in as punk. It's not, it has less in common with punk than it does with metal. Powerviolence is the logical extreme of hard core punk, but crust is more like a missing link in metal, somewhere between heavy metal and death metal.

Change my mind.

It should be crust metal.


Crust punk is a natural evolution from the UK82 scene, which was the UK's answer to US hardcore punk. It's what happened when bands took cues from the likes of Discharge, GBH and various British bands and combined it with the early form of extreme metal that was emerging in the early to mid 80s. There's also a bit of influence from post-punk (Amebix's music is a pretty good example of this) and even industrial music to a certain extent. Crust punk is undoubtedly tied to punk, a cursory listen to modern crust bands like Tragedy or Martyrdod will make that evident pretty quickly. It's pretty obvious that they owe a lot to Discharge and the various D-beat bands that followed in their wake.


Last edited by Kalaratri on Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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doomicus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:03 pm 
 

No need to change your mind, op. You're just wrong. If you're content with that, it's no skin off my back.
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brutaldeathdancepop
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:43 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:30 am 
 

Other than the Motorhead influence (that's channeled through Discharge, Exploited, and GBH anyway), whatever death metal influence bands like ENT, Disrupt have, and whatever black metal influence the modern crust bands have (a very slight and superficial influence IMO), I feel exactly the opposite - they're punk or hardcore bands first. The metal is there as an added flavor but not the main ingredient. Where's the metal in Nausea, Aus-Rotten, Anti Cimex, Toxic Narcotic...?

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thewrll
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:23 am 
 

What a dumb hill to die on.

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Smalley
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:46 am 
 

doomicus wrote:
No need to change your mind, op. You're just wrong. If you're content with that, it's no skin off my back.

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:06 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:25 am 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
I'm not sure how Crust Punk gets lumped in as punk. It's not, it has less in common with punk than it does with metal.


It's shit like this that is the cause of many an instant headache.

It you would have tried this line in the 80s or early 90s the first response would have been a hell of a laughing fit. The second would likely have been a hail of bottles flying in your direction.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:33 pm 
 

Says someone who likely isn't into punk and who got hoodwinked by all the revisionism that goes on in today's climate.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:05 pm 
 

Part of the reason I like some crust and d-beat is because it feels like punk for metalheads (particularly those into Entombed and such), so from the perspective of punks I don't think the opinion is completely crazy. I imagine if there was a Punk-Archives/Punkium or something like that they might reject lots of bands from hybrid genres like deathcore, metalcore, crossover and such as too metal-based for inclusion. Some of that stuff is in a no man's land where neither side wants to claim it as their own, insisting it's on the other side of the divide from their camp.

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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:02 pm 
 

I was just listening to I's Between Two Worlds then switched over to Amebix and yeah... OP isn't really that wrong here.

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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:05 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Part of the reason I like some crust and d-beat is because it feels like punk for metalheads (particularly those into Entombed and such)

That's because Entombed were influenced by that type of punk music. That's doesn't retroactively make crust or d-beat "punk for metalheads". What feels metal about it?


LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I imagine if there was a Punk-Archives/Punkium or something like that they might reject lots of bands from hybrid genres like deathcore, metalcore, crossover and such as too metal-based for inclusion. Some of that stuff is in a no man's land where neither side wants to claim it as their own, insisting it's on the other side of the divide from their camp.


There are plenty of deathcore, metalcore and crossover bands on the Metal Archives.


Last edited by Invocation on Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:18 pm 
 

And lots that aren't.

Something like Disfear is a pretty obvious middle ground that it's easy to see drawing in near equal amounts of hardcore people and metalheads.

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ZenoMarx
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:27 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Part of the reason I like some crust and d-beat is because it feels like punk for metalheads (particularly those into Entombed and such), so from the perspective of punks I don't think the opinion is completely crazy.
This is where contemporary labeling distorts. Calling the likes of Skitsystem crust has always been a reach. Skitsystem is one of my favorite bands from the 90s, but they were never crust. That was simply the evolution of Swedish HC and the incestuous relationship between that scene and their death metal scene because that region never had an issue with purity, like in the USA where anything crossing over got a big old frown and fuck you (talking the late 80s and early 90s, when crossover was especially challenging and irritating the extremes). But whether you're talking about early crust, ala UK stench, or the lazy labeling of things coming out of latter Swedish HC, you're still talking about a punk product with punk sensibilities. My goodness does it ever rub me the wrong way that a whole generation thinks of Skitsystem, Disfear, etc as "crust", or worse yet, "crust punk", whatever the fuck that label actually encapsulates.

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OnlyZeusIsFree
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:43 pm 
 

Bands like Nausea, Aus Rotten, Toxic Narcoctic, Misantropic are punk bands.

But a band like Skitsystem or Disfear or some Nuclear Death Terror?

Skitsystem sounds like a missing link between death and heavy metal.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:53 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
My goodness does it ever rub me the wrong way that a whole generation thinks of Skitsystem, Disfear, etc as "crust", or worse yet, "crust punk", whatever the fuck that label actually encapsulates.


What label do you think most accurately describes bands like Disfear and Skitsystem?

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:06 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What label do you think most accurately describes bands like Disfear and Skitsystem?
Swedish HC. Period.

EDIT: I should add that when the Anti-Bofors 7", Disfear s/t 7", A Brutal Sight of War, Profithysteri 7", Ondskans Ansikte 10", Grå Världr album, Wolfpack albums, Uncurbed, and Victims albums all came out, there was never any mention of crust or "crust punk". So, we're talking the entire decade of the 90s without that labeling. It wasn't even referred to as a new wave of Swedish HC. It was just Swedish HC. That's coming from a punk perspective, because I never hung around metallers. The rich tradition of Discharge as a Swedish HC root. There was nothing new there, really. Crust punk sounds to me like something Southern Lord would come up with on a hype sticker.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:24 pm 
 

So would you just lump Refused, Puke, Zegota, Asterisk*, De Lyckliga Kompisarna, Regulations, God Mother, Raised Fist, DS-13, Lowest Creature, Dr. Living Dead!, Setsuko, Satanic Surfers, and others in the same basket with all the bands typically labeled crust and/or d-beat with no differentiating terms?

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:34 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So would you just lump Refused, Puke, Zegota, Asterisk*, De Lyckliga Kompisarna, Regulations, God Mother, Raised Fist, DS-13, Lowest Creature, Dr. Living Dead!, Setsuko, Satanic Surfers, and others in the same basket with all the bands typically labeled crust and/or d-beat with no differentiating terms?
I'm not super familiar with most of those bands, but say Refused, DS-13, and Regulations are just hardcore bands. Hardcore coming out of Sweden with US hardcore influence. That's how they were referenced in the 90s. Not strictly, but darn close, "Swedish HC" ties in Discharge and early brethren like Mob 47, Anti-Cimex, Missbrukarna, Avskum, etc. Then you have bands like Asta Kask in Swedish punk.

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:40 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
that region never had an issue with purity, like in the USA where anything crossing over got a big old frown and fuck you (talking the late 80s and early 90s, when crossover was especially challenging and irritating the extremes).


The bitching about the Metal/HC thing was more like 1984 on and wasn't much of an issue from say, 1989. And Crossover was already getting played out in the late 80s and was pretty much a dead issue in the early 90s. If you wanted "challenging and irritating the extremes" you were going to look towards Crust or Grindcore. It was like there was a contest to see just how over the top one could push thing in the 80s and then "SCUM" was released. Everyone's jaws dropped and a lot of people started looking at changing directions.

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OnlyZeusIsFree
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:42 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:48 pm 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
ZenoMarx wrote:
that region never had an issue with purity, like in the USA where anything crossing over got a big old frown and fuck you (talking the late 80s and early 90s, when crossover was especially challenging and irritating the extremes).


The bitching about the Metal/HC thing was more like 1984 on and wasn't much of an issue from say, 1989. And Crossover was already getting played out in the late 80s and was pretty much a dead issue in the early 90s. If you wanted "challenging and irritating the extremes" you were going to look towards Crust or Grindcore. It was like there was a contest to see just how over the top one could push thing in the 80s and then "SCUM" was released. Everyone's jaws dropped and a lot of people started looking at changing directions.



Crytptic Slaughter, United Mutation, and Asocial were ripping faster, grimier, and harder before Scum.


Anyways, the guys from Skitsystem were in death metal bands before, so there's no sense in not labeling that style of crust as something more descriptive of the proximity to metal.

Sonically, really, what attributes of Skitstyem match with metal or punk? I just don't see how you can say it's punk.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:51 pm 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
ZenoMarx wrote:
that region never had an issue with purity, like in the USA where anything crossing over got a big old frown and fuck you (talking the late 80s and early 90s, when crossover was especially challenging and irritating the extremes).


The bitching about the Metal/HC thing was more like 1984 on and wasn't much of an issue from say, 1989.
I wouldn't argue with that too much. I was still hearing about longhairs not feeling welcomed at hardcore shows as late as 1988-89ish. I'd agree with 1989 as an end, but it also depends where you were. NYC, with NYHC and bands like Ludichrist and Leeway, were used to it by then, but that nonsense still had a grip in some places, like Chicago. I don't think it was ever an issue in Sweden.

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ZenoMarx
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:52 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
Sonically, really, what attributes of Skitstyem match with metal or punk? I just don't see how you can say it's punk.
One word: Discharge.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:56 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So would you just lump Refused, Puke, Zegota, Asterisk*, De Lyckliga Kompisarna, Regulations, God Mother, Raised Fist, DS-13, Lowest Creature, Dr. Living Dead!, Setsuko, Satanic Surfers, and others in the same basket with all the bands typically labeled crust and/or d-beat with no differentiating terms?
I'm not super familiar with most of those bands, but say Refused, DS-13, and Regulations are just hardcore bands. Hardcore coming out of Sweden with US hardcore influence. That's how they were referenced in the 90s. Not strictly, but darn close, "Swedish HC" ties in Discharge and early brethren like Mob 47, Anti-Cimex, Missbrukarna, Avskum, etc. Then you have bands like Asta Kask in Swedish punk.


I come from a metal background, and just dip my toes into the punk/hardcore scene occasionally, but it seems a bit too broad to me. It'd be like labeling Demilich, Children of Bodom, Nightwish, Insomnium, Stratovarius, Beherit, etc. as "Finnish metal". Are you just saying that "crust" doesn't/shouldn't even exist? I don't think most people could get used to that.

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:06 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:


Cryptic Slaughter, United Mutation, and Asocial were ripping faster, grimier, and harder before Scum.


Cryptic Slaughter was nowhere near "faster, grimier, and harder" than Scum and FETO Napalm Death. Not even close. And i was way into Cryptic Slaughter back then. United Mutation had that super Low Fi production that was a staple of USHC but wasn't that much in the way of velocity. Your spot on with Asocial, but believe it or not, that demo didn't get the attention it should have. I was a collecting fanatic and not single person i knew had that demo, even my European connections never listed it.

Now that i think of it, Siege's "Drop Dead" demo was way more intense than Cryptic Slaughter or United Mutation.

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OnlyZeusIsFree
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:12 pm 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:


Cryptic Slaughter, United Mutation, and Asocial were ripping faster, grimier, and harder before Scum.


Cryptic Slaughter was nowhere near "faster, grimier, and harder" than Scum and FETO Napalm Death. Not even close. And i was way into Cryptic Slaughter back then. United Mutation had that super Low Fi production that was a staple of USHC but wasn't that much in the way of velocity. Your spot on with Asocial, but believe it or not, that demo didn't get the attention it should have. I was a collecting fanatic and not single person i knew had that demo, even my European connections never listed it.

Now that i think of it, Siege's "Drop Dead" demo was way more intense than Cryptic Slaughter or United Mutation.



I meant they were ripping harder than anything mainstream at the time. Cyrptic Slaughter Convicted is a masterpiece of pure energy. It sounds so much like hardcore punk. It's amazing. United Mutation vocals were guttural way before that hit any genre.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:13 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Are you just saying that "crust" doesn't/shouldn't even exist?
Not saying this at all. I'm saying 1) Skitsystem, Disfear, and the other bands now usually labeled as crust aren't crust and 2) "crust punk" is a lazy revisionist term that I don't like. The only bands that I **might** concede as confusing are Counterblast and Dom-Dar. There IS Swedish crust, but it isn't Skitsystem, Disfear, or Wolfbrigade.

I'm a big fan of crust. Check my post history for recommendations. Fatum (Moscow) and Instinct of Survival (Germany) are two of my present favorites. Then there is the Enough! cassette album that was just reissued on LP/digital (Poland) that'll have the metallers even more confused. I could go on and on.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:34 pm 
 

So would you say it's more like Anti-Cimex then? Maybe Totalitar? And Skitsystem and others are too death metal-influenced to count anymore? Then it would seem we need another subgenre, because I can definitely hear a big difference. I think lumping them back into "Swedish hardcore" doesn't help though, because that tells me even less about how they sound. I had just thought about it as different waves, like how Death, Drawn and Quartered, and Tomb Mold are all death metal, but don't really sound like each other because they come from different eras.

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Invocation
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:11 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:40 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
ZenoMarx wrote:
that region never had an issue with purity, like in the USA where anything crossing over got a big old frown and fuck you (talking the late 80s and early 90s, when crossover was especially challenging and irritating the extremes).


The bitching about the Metal/HC thing was more like 1984 on and wasn't much of an issue from say, 1989. And Crossover was already getting played out in the late 80s and was pretty much a dead issue in the early 90s. If you wanted "challenging and irritating the extremes" you were going to look towards Crust or Grindcore. It was like there was a contest to see just how over the top one could push thing in the 80s and then "SCUM" was released. Everyone's jaws dropped and a lot of people started looking at changing directions.



Crytptic Slaughter, United Mutation, and Asocial were ripping faster, grimier, and harder before Scum.


Anyways, the guys from Skitsystem were in death metal bands before, so there's no sense in not labeling that style of crust as something more descriptive of the proximity to metal.

Sonically, really, what attributes of Skitstyem match with metal or punk? I just don't see how you can say it's punk.


Is this a joke? Yes there is some death metal influence but the music is clearly predominantly punk/hardcore. What makes you say it sounds more like metal? The guitar tone/tuning and vocal style?

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:49 pm 
 

This is looking increasingly to me like the confusion that goes on with metalcore. Originally it was used to describe crossover thrash bands like S.O.D. in the 80s. In the 90s it was used for metallic hardcore bands like Earth Crisis. In the 00s it became more common for the melodeath-inspired bands like Killswitch Engage. Now in the past decade or so it seems more common for an entirely different set of bands like Northlane, influenced by various alternative metal, nu-metal and such, it's trickier to say since it's still ongoing and we don't have the historical context to separate it all out yet.


Last edited by LithoJazzoSphere on Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OnlyZeusIsFree
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:50 pm 
 

Yes, the guitar riffs and the vocals, mostly.

What would you say makes it punk? The skank beat?

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:10 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
So would you say it's more like Anti-Cimex then? Maybe Totalitar? And Skitsystem and others are too death metal-influenced to count anymore? Then it would seem we need another subgenre, because I can definitely hear a big difference. I think lumping them back into "Swedish hardcore" doesn't help though, because that tells me even less about how they sound. I had just thought about it as different waves, like how Death, Drawn and Quartered, and Tomb Mold are all death metal, but don't really sound like each other because they come from different eras.

I don't think I understand your question, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Anti-Cimex and Totalitar, were never crust. Never. In 2021, still not. Same goes for Skitsystem. They were never crust. It's been sometime in the past two decades, after the fact, that they were labeled crust. It doesn't have anything to do with death metal. Maybe I shouldn't say that, because, honestly, I don't understand why they're labeled crust. When I think of crust in any form, I don't think of death metal, so I wouldn't think the relabeling has anything to do with death metal. As I said, in the moment, when people talked about Swedish HC, they knew what that was. Also in that moment, when people talked about DS-13 and Regulations, they talked about hardcore from Sweden. That might sound like the same thing now, but it wasn't then. "Swedish HC" and "hardcore from Sweden" are not the same thing or interchangeable. I guess you could say Swedish HC has a distinct sound like Swedish death metal does. That might not be the best comparison. I'm not sure.

I personally don't think Skitsystem needs its own sub-genre because...as I said...it sounds like Swedish HC to me. It doesn't sound like something completely other or even derivative. I hope I'm hitting at your questions.

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Invocation
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:16 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
Yes, the guitar riffs and the vocals, mostly.



The riffing sounds metal to you?!?!

Vocal style has less than nothing to do with something being punk or metal really.

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
What would you say makes it punk? The skank beat?


The songwriting.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:21 pm 
 

Powerviolence sounds much more metal than crust, it has a strong sludge influence that crust doesn't have. I'm sorry but I think your wrong.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:22 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I don't think I understand your question, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Anti-Cimex and Totalitar, were never crust. Never. In 2021, still not. Same goes for Skitsystem. They were never crust. It's been sometime in the past two decades, after the fact, that they were labeled crust. It doesn't have anything to do with death metal. Maybe I shouldn't say that, because, honestly, I don't understand why they're labeled crust. When I think of crust in any form, I don't think of death metal, so I wouldn't think the relabeling has anything to do with death metal. As I said, in the moment, when people talked about Swedish HC, they knew what that was. Also in that moment, when people talked about DS-13 and Regulations, they talked about hardcore from Sweden. That might sound like the same thing now, but it wasn't then. "Swedish HC" and "hardcore from Sweden" are not the same thing or interchangeable. I guess you could say Swedish HC has a distinct sound like Swedish death metal does. That might not be the best comparison. I'm not sure.

I personally don't think Skitsystem needs its own sub-genre because...as I said...it sounds like Swedish HC to me. It doesn't sound like something completely other or even derivative. I hope I'm hitting at your questions.


That's just confusing. What is the "HC" other than an abbreviation for "HardCore"? Those just sound like terms that may have been meaningful at the time for certain scenes, but haven't ported over. Hard to do much about that. AC/DC was called a metal band in the 70s/80s, but we don't anymore. Language evolves. But what do you consider crust to be then?

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robotiq
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
I guess you could say Swedish HC has a distinct sound like Swedish death metal does. That might not be the best comparison. I'm not sure.


Makes sense to me. Bands like Seance and Vomitory played death metal from Sweden, but I'm not sure I'd call them 'Swedish death metal'

Gravetemplar wrote:
Powerviolence sounds much more metal than crust, it has a strong sludge influence that crust doesn't have. I'm sorry but I think your wrong.


I can't hear any metal at all in bands like No Comment, Crossed Out and Infest. It is a completely different root.

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ZenoMarx
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:10 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
That's just confusing. What is the "HC" other than an abbreviation for "HardCore"? Those just sound like terms that may have been meaningful at the time for certain scenes, but haven't ported over. Hard to do much about that. AC/DC was called a metal band in the 70s/80s, but we don't anymore. Language evolves. But what do you consider crust to be then?
I'm all for language evolving. If you could look into a time machine and see some of my past arguments, I advocate for exactly that. I don't think conflating, and confusing, things is that, though. Swedish HC is neither crust, nor punk (in terms of labeling the music itself). It dawned on me a few minutes ago that what I think the problem here is that people aren't familiar with all these genres, so as they've grown up with these misnomers, it creates confusion. That's not knocking anyone. I don't know shit about most death metal, so I could easily get bogged down in terminology. At the same time, when someone tells me, "It sounds like Swedish death metal", I don't think I'm going to get something progressive like Enslaved or slow and pounding like Incantation. I'm getting off track. I doubt I can better explain it than I have. Dig into actual crust and then tell me Skitsystem is at all crust. Ignorance might be the hurdle here.

Skitsystem sounds nothing like Amebix, Nausea, or Societic Death Slaughter (UK crust, US crust, Japanese crust respectively). Skitsystem does sound like early Avskum, Anti-Cimex, Missbrukarna, etc. DS-13 doesn't sound like any of this because it has USHC roots. Again, Swedish HC is founded in Discharge.

To be honest, there hasn't been a whole lot of punk music out of Sweden that is crust. It hasn't been a main influence on them. By and large, Discharge is their deal.

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doomicus
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Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:24 pm 
 

Don't have anything to really add, other than that ZenoMarx definitely knows what's up.
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OnlyZeusIsFree
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:42 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:21 pm 
 

Powerviolence to me sounds almost exclusively like hardcore punk taken to the hilt, the sludge parts are like a novelty. Seige sounds like Bad Brains with the aggression and time changes multiplied.

As for the main topic, aren't we already touching on the thesis by saying Swedish HC was never crust? Swedish death metal was always more punky than US deathmetal, and Swedish crust, or as Zeno puts it Swedish HC, was always more inspired by death metal. Moreover, if Skitsystem, etc., are not "Crust", then what are they? Saying they are Swedish Hardcore might be true in the ways that matter, but it's also not descriptive enough to be satisfying.

But it's not punk. I'd say it's metallic punk.

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Kalaratri
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:36 pm 
 

OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
Powerviolence to me sounds almost exclusively like hardcore punk taken to the hilt, the sludge parts are like a novelty. Seige sounds like Bad Brains with the aggression and time changes multiplied.

As for the main topic, aren't we already touching on the thesis by saying Swedish HC was never crust? Swedish death metal was always more punky than US deathmetal, and Swedish crust, or as Zeno puts it Swedish HC, was always more inspired by death metal. Moreover, if Skitsystem, etc., are not "Crust", then what are they? Saying they are Swedish Hardcore might be true in the ways that matter, but it's also not descriptive enough to be satisfying.

But it's not punk. I'd say it's metallic punk.


Metallic hardcore is still a subgenre of hardcore, which is itself a subgenre of punk rock, so you don't really have much of a point. In any case, those Swedish bands aren't really drawing from the heavy/beatdown hardcore that influenced a lot of what became 90s metalcore so they're not really a part of that category. Bands like Skitsystem are clearly inspired/influenced by the 1980s D-beat scene which is a subgenre of punk, if anything I'd say they're a logical evolution of that particular style. In the same way Discharge was influenced by Motorhead and fair amount of the NWOBHM that was exploding around the same time UK hardcore punk was becoming relevant, the Swedish bands were influenced by developments in other metal scenes that were happening at the same time, particularly the Swedish death metal movement. That still doesn't mean they're not punk though. The death metal influences are just an additional ingredient tossed into a pot that already contains a ton of 80s punk and hardcore influences, they're not the dominant part of the sound.

It's irrelevant anyway because your original assertion is that crust punk isn't punk and that's blatantly false. Bands like Amebix, Doom, Antisect etc. are clearly tied into the history of UK anarcho-punk and hardcore that started with the likes of Crass, Discharge etc. They just took it a step further by adding influences from other scenes like heavy/speed metal and early extreme metal (like Venom) and post-punk. That doesn't mean they're not fundamentally rooted in punk and clearly punk bands in terms of sound and aesthetic.

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OnlyZeusIsFree
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Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:42 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
OnlyZeusIsFree wrote:
Powerviolence to me sounds almost exclusively like hardcore punk taken to the hilt, the sludge parts are like a novelty. Seige sounds like Bad Brains with the aggression and time changes multiplied.

As for the main topic, aren't we already touching on the thesis by saying Swedish HC was never crust? Swedish death metal was always more punky than US deathmetal, and Swedish crust, or as Zeno puts it Swedish HC, was always more inspired by death metal. Moreover, if Skitsystem, etc., are not "Crust", then what are they? Saying they are Swedish Hardcore might be true in the ways that matter, but it's also not descriptive enough to be satisfying.

But it's not punk. I'd say it's metallic punk.


Metallic hardcore is still a subgenre of hardcore, which is itself a subgenre of punk rock, so you don't really have much of a point. In any case, those Swedish bands aren't really drawing from the heavy/beatdown hardcore that influenced a lot of what became 90s metalcore so they're not really a part of that category. Bands like Skitsystem are clearly inspired/influenced by the 1980s D-beat scene which is a subgenre of punk, if anything I'd say they're a logical evolution of that particular style. In the same way Discharge was influenced by Motorhead and fair amount of the NWOBHM that was exploding around the same time UK hardcore punk was becoming relevant, the Swedish bands were influenced by developments in other metal scenes that were happening at the same time, particularly the Swedish death metal movement. That still doesn't mean they're not punk though. The death metal influences are just an additional ingredient tossed into a pot that already contains a ton of 80s punk and hardcore influences, they're not the dominant part of the sound.

It's irrelevant anyway because your original assertion is that crust punk isn't punk and that's blatantly false. Bands like Amebix, Doom, Antisect etc. are clearly tied into the history of UK anarcho-punk and hardcore that started with the likes of Crass, Discharge etc. They just took it a step further by adding influences from other scenes like heavy/speed metal and early extreme metal (like Venom) and post-punk. That doesn't mean they're not fundamentally rooted in punk and clearly punk bands in terms of sound and aesthetic.



Skitsystem, Disfear, Wolfbrigade are the bands that I had in mind in the OP, not Nausea, Disrupt, Aus-rotten, etc. Those bands qualify as punk with "crust" being the type of punk they are, a modifier. You can get more specific and say Aus-Rotten is an anarcho-punk band in the tradition of Conflict. Or Disrupt and Naseua are NE crust. But in general, they can all fit under the umbrella of punk.

With Skitsystem et al, the logical progression you described is far enough from the starting point to necessitate more than any of the modifiers in use. They simply don't fall under that umbrella term, punk, any longer. It's no different than Earth Crisis and Integrity kicking of "metal core" because they were clearly no longer playing anything like Sick of It All, Agnostic Front, or War Zone, which themselves had jumped from Minor Threat, Circle Jerks, and so on. Xeno's entire point is the same, that these bands were never crust. My point is the same, except I think there's enough metallic influences to recalibrate the naming in that direction.

And to your point, I would even have problems saying that Skitsystem and that sound is fundamentally rooted in punk. Discharge's Hear Nothing was a punk album, but it set in motion an evolution away from punk. By the time you get to Skitsystem and Disfear, like you mentioned, there was a swirl of influences beyond punk.

This is just good conversation, I'm not arguing.

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