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AxeCapitol
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm 
 

Serious question. SNM through HA (inclusive of HTC) sound as much as first wave and/or proto BM as other storied bands such as Venom, Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost. What gives?
Equally atmospheric, brutal and satanic. Truly the outlier amongst the “big 4” of thrash.

Any insight? Or am I just deaf?

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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:03 am 
 

I just don't hear it. When I listen to Venom, Bathory and Celtic Frost, and then listen to Show No Mercy, I can tell they liked listening to Venom, but that's basically where it ends for me,

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:05 am 
 

It is my understanding that back when the first wave of black metal was just black metal, Slayer were considered a part of it.

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MeavyHetal
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:54 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:15 am 
 

Slayer were a big influence on extreme metal in general. Hell Awaits was a huge influence for death metal as well.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:53 am 
 

At the time, 'black metal' was a reference to lyrics more than any specific type of playing. But I don't recall the term being used much at all.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:29 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
At the time, 'black metal' was a reference to lyrics more than any specific type of playing. But I don't recall the term being used much at all.


Noted - but retrospectively, Venom et al are considered first wave BM - just curious as to why Slayer isn't revered in a similar fashion.

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MeavyHetal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:51 am 
 

Also wanted to add that Show No Mercy is more of a blueprint for thrash metal than anything else since it was one of the first albums of the genre. Like most early thrash bands, Slayer were huge fans of the NWOBHM (which Venom were also a part of). Show No Mercy is just as influenced by Iron Maiden and Judas Priest as it is Venom and Mercyful Fate, with a healthy dose of hardcore punk for good measure that resulted in faster tempos. Sure, they were an influence on black metal bands, but the same could be said for thrash and death metal as well. The Venom influence is strong, but I don't think they really fall in the same category since SNM was more of a showcase of all of their collective influences. By the time they released Haunting The Chapel, Slayer had developed their own distinct style.

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693
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Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:32 am 
 

With the logic of the first wave I agree that Slayer would be among them. Sodom was also "Black Metal", but they were also closer to black metal back then. BM bands the last few years are starting to sound more and more like Sodom and Bathory than Darkthrone.

Also the Black Metal terminology was mostly used in Europe and South America and not in the U.S.A. back then.

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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:57 am 
 

1st wave black metal is a very slippery thing. There's really nothing more than a vague consensus surrounding which bands are and aren't part of the first wave. I've seen plenty of people over the years rank Slayer alongside the other bands you listed. They were totally a huge influence of black metal either way.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:38 pm 
 

This thread did ignite a memory from back in the day.

In 1985, I was a freshman in a Catholic high school in the 'burbs of New York. One of our classes was music history (not kidding!) which was taught by a relatively young guy (mid 30s?), who was also a musician.....focusing on jazz.

Anyway, on Fridays he allowed students to bring a cassette and play a song to the class (we also had to present a write-up explaining why we chose the song).

I chose "Haunting the Chapel"! LOL

The year was 1985, which was a year before Slayer really blew up via "RIB". What struck me was the teacher's enthusiasm: I clearly recall him saying, "OK, great. I've been wanting to hear an example of 'black metal'"! I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he absolutely referred to Slayer as 'black metal'.....and was not a metal fan by any stretch. Yet he'd heard of black metal and heard of Slayer....and presumed they were indeed an example of it!

Needless to say, most of the class hated it! A majority of the classmates were into metal (Maiden/Priest type stuff) but thrash hasn't yet seeped into the water of my area of New York.

The other song I played that year was "Trapped Under Ice" for which I vividly recall one classmate covering his ears for the 'noise'! LOL

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:23 pm 
 

MRmehman wrote:
1st wave black metal is a very slippery thing. There's really nothing more than a vague consensus surrounding which bands are and aren't part of the first wave. I've seen plenty of people over the years rank Slayer alongside the other bands you listed. They were totally a huge influence of black metal either way.

Yeah, 1st wave BM is better taken as a very loose label you can apply to bands that would eventually be considered highly influential to the more codified 2nd wave of the genre. Barely any of them qualify as what's nowadays understood to be black metal.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:29 pm 
 

jimbies wrote:
I just don't hear it. When I listen to Venom, Bathory and Celtic Frost, and then listen to Show No Mercy, I can tell they liked listening to Venom, but that's basically where it ends for me,


Yeah, I would agree.

I don't know, early on they tread the line of "black-thrash", and there's some black thrash that I could consider part of it, but names specifically of bands that weren't full on black metal but just black-thrash that I would personally consider part of that scene are escaping me.

I've heard this argument before, and it's an interesting one, but in reality they aren't really there like those bands, they just have the imagery.

Edit: Sodom are part of it, but listen to Sodom like "In the Sign of Evil" and it's really to my ear so much more black metal than early Slayer.

I don't know, maybe if i listened to Hell Awaits, Show No Mercy and Haunting the Chapel again I could be convinced.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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693
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Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:30 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
This thread did ignite a memory from back in the day.

In 1985, I was a freshman in a Catholic high school in the 'burbs of New York. One of our classes was music history (not kidding!) which was taught by a relatively young guy (mid 30s?), who was also a musician.....focusing on jazz.

Anyway, on Fridays he allowed students to bring a cassette and play a song to the class (we also had to present a write-up explaining why we chose the song).

I chose "Haunting the Chapel"! LOL

The year was 1985, which was a year before Slayer really blew up via "RIB". What struck me was the teacher's enthusiasm: I clearly recall him saying, "OK, great. I've been wanting to hear an example of 'black metal'"! I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he absolutely referred to Slayer as 'black metal'.....and was not a metal fan by any stretch. Yet he'd heard of black metal and heard of Slayer....and presumed they were indeed an example of it!

Needless to say, most of the class hated it! A majority of the classmates were into metal (Maiden/Priest type stuff) but thrash hasn't yet seeped into the water of my area of New York.

The other song I played that year was "Trapped Under Ice" for which I vividly recall one classmate covering his ears for the 'noise'! LOL


That is a cool story, mentioning that, I once saw a picture from some Church group from back then where Slayer was classified as Black Metal by them.

On a different note, why is Slayer marked as active in the archives when they split in 2019?

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DecemberSoul
Mirties Metafora

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:34 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
This thread did ignite a memory from back in the day.

In 1985, I was a freshman in a Catholic high school in the 'burbs of New York. One of our classes was music history (not kidding!) which was taught by a relatively young guy (mid 30s?), who was also a musician.....focusing on jazz.

Anyway, on Fridays he allowed students to bring a cassette and play a song to the class (we also had to present a write-up explaining why we chose the song).

I chose "Haunting the Chapel"! LOL

The year was 1985, which was a year before Slayer really blew up via "RIB". What struck me was the teacher's enthusiasm: I clearly recall him saying, "OK, great. I've been wanting to hear an example of 'black metal'"! I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he absolutely referred to Slayer as 'black metal'.....and was not a metal fan by any stretch. Yet he'd heard of black metal and heard of Slayer....and presumed they were indeed an example of it!

Needless to say, most of the class hated it! A majority of the classmates were into metal (Maiden/Priest type stuff) but thrash hasn't yet seeped into the water of my area of New York.

The other song I played that year was "Trapped Under Ice" for which I vividly recall one classmate covering his ears for the 'noise'! LOL


Allowing myself to hijack this thread a little by adding how I got away in '94/'95 playing the whole of Necrophobic's debut in gym class over the PA (!) and the entire Incantation debut during workshop lesson on a loud boombox ... twice in a row (!!). Pearls before swine though...
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:37 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
This thread did ignite a memory from back in the day.

In 1985, I was a freshman in a Catholic high school in the 'burbs of New York. One of our classes was music history (not kidding!) which was taught by a relatively young guy (mid 30s?), who was also a musician.....focusing on jazz.

Anyway, on Fridays he allowed students to bring a cassette and play a song to the class (we also had to present a write-up explaining why we chose the song).

I chose "Haunting the Chapel"! LOL

The year was 1985, which was a year before Slayer really blew up via "RIB". What struck me was the teacher's enthusiasm: I clearly recall him saying, "OK, great. I've been wanting to hear an example of 'black metal'"! I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he absolutely referred to Slayer as 'black metal'.....and was not a metal fan by any stretch. Yet he'd heard of black metal and heard of Slayer....and presumed they were indeed an example of it!

Needless to say, most of the class hated it! A majority of the classmates were into metal (Maiden/Priest type stuff) but thrash hasn't yet seeped into the water of my area of New York.

The other song I played that year was "Trapped Under Ice" for which I vividly recall one classmate covering his ears for the 'noise'! LOL



Such a cool story. I always wondered when the term "black metal" really broke out.

It seems to be a question we can't all answer and we have to go to older guys like you who were there at the time. Cause to me it really seems like death metal was something that broke out earlier. I remember mentioning black metal to some people when I was in highschool in 1995 and they all had never heard of it but had heard of death metal. I think black metal existed mostly in the underground until the Norwegian scene and most weren't even aware of it till the mid 90s but death metal was a term people knew back in 1988.

Check your PMS. I think we grew up around the same area.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:44 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I don't know, maybe if i listened to Hell Awaits, Show No Mercy and Haunting the Chapel again I could be convinced.

Make sure you've got the band pics from those days too, that might help. Hell, there's so many great riffs on those albums, it might just be too overwelming for ya.

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693
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:50 pm 
 

DecemberSoul wrote:
Benedict Donald wrote:
This thread did ignite a memory from back in the day.

In 1985, I was a freshman in a Catholic high school in the 'burbs of New York. One of our classes was music history (not kidding!) which was taught by a relatively young guy (mid 30s?), who was also a musician.....focusing on jazz.

Anyway, on Fridays he allowed students to bring a cassette and play a song to the class (we also had to present a write-up explaining why we chose the song).

I chose "Haunting the Chapel"! LOL

The year was 1985, which was a year before Slayer really blew up via "RIB". What struck me was the teacher's enthusiasm: I clearly recall him saying, "OK, great. I've been wanting to hear an example of 'black metal'"! I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he absolutely referred to Slayer as 'black metal'.....and was not a metal fan by any stretch. Yet he'd heard of black metal and heard of Slayer....and presumed they were indeed an example of it!

Needless to say, most of the class hated it! A majority of the classmates were into metal (Maiden/Priest type stuff) but thrash hasn't yet seeped into the water of my area of New York.

The other song I played that year was "Trapped Under Ice" for which I vividly recall one classmate covering his ears for the 'noise'! LOL


Allowing myself to hijack this thread a little by adding how I got away in '94/'95 playing the whole of Necrophobic's debut in gym class over the PA (!) and the entire Incantation debut during workshop lesson on a loud boombox ... twice in a row (!!). Pearls before swine though...


In my School when I was a kid we had speakers outside that we could put on our own Cd's, I put on Mayhem DMDS all the time. It usually lasted 2-3 songs before someone changed it to something more mainstream.

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DecemberSoul
Mirties Metafora

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:47 pm 
 

693 wrote:
In my School when I was a kid we had speakers outside that we could put on our own Cd's, I put on Mayhem DMDS all the time. It usually lasted 2-3 songs before someone changed it to something more mainstream.


A good choice to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'd have sided with you.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
I don't know, maybe if i listened to Hell Awaits, Show No Mercy and Haunting the Chapel again I could be convinced.

Make sure you've got the band pics from those days too, that might help. Hell, there's so many great riffs on those albums, it might just be too overwelming for ya.


Zing!

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:21 pm 
 

But as to really ask the question further, because I remember I did have a thread about this I think a couple years back, and this is really a question for people who are probably in their 50s or 60s now or at least late 40s, people who were AT LEAST teenagers in the 80s....

When did the term black metal REALLY start to be used, or more importantly was it really used with any frequency in the 80s, and if so, was it mostly amongst the die hard metalheads?

I'd assume if it was really ever used it was only amongst the diehards, because as I mentioned, I remember in 1995 talking about black metal to a couple people who were actually metal heads in 1995 (but obviously not really knowledgable ones...) and they didn't know what it was but of course knew death metal.

I mean, we know that black metal as far as the 2nd wave started to become known around 91', so most would know by 95...but honestly i don't think amongst the laypeople who had SOME metal knowledge but weren't really die hards that it was a term they would necessarily have heard before 93 and certainly not before 91.

It's weird to me because IMO black metal actually existed BEFORE death metal. I mean, certainly if we count Venom and Hellhammer it was, and even if we didn't include them, Bathory for sure was black metal by any standards and their self titled was 1984 and to the best of my knowledge that was really before any TRUE death metal existed, maybe at the very least some of the earliest Mantis/Death demos and Possessed demos but certainly no full length death metal albums.

And yet, black metal seemed to be VERY slow to emerge past the underground, but by 1988 most people knew what death metal was, CERTAINLY by 1990 death metal was a term even many non-metal heads would have heard, but not black metal. I wonder why that is.

Prior to that, with all the 1st wave black metal bands....was black metal really a commonly used term in the 80s and if so, were they referring to the same bands we now call "1st wave black metal" or did they use it for death metal, thrash, etc?

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:06 pm 
 

Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:31 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


This.

I was into Slayer, Celtic Frost & Venom by 1985, and all were typically identified by fans simply as "thrash" or "speed metal".

Most fans really didn't refer to these bands, or Mercyful Fate, as 'black metal' until a few years later, from what I recall.
And when 'black metal' was used, it was always a reference to the lyrics and not any type of playing.

Here's more: "Seven Churches" and "Scream Bloody Gore" were also mostly categorized as thrash, by most fans. But the true hardcore fans had already begun differentiating them as "death metal". Other thrash bands would soon be mislabeled as death including Blood Feast, At War, & even Sodom. In a fit of revisionist history, early Kreator and Destruction was also similarly mislabeled for a time. But this phenomenon was seemingly short-lived once true death metal erupted onto the scene!

As an aside, bands like Motley Crue, WASP, and even Twisted Sister weren't called 'hair metal' during the years through the mid-80s. I dont think that became a thing until Bon Jovi and Poison blew up, which would have been 86 - 87.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:35 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


What the hell did they mean by "white metal"?

I have never once heard that term.

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Hexenmacht46290
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:40 pm 
 

I’d consider Bathory the first example of something that’s definitely black metal. I could also count Hellhammer(although I don’t think Celtic Frost is all that black metal). Slayer is in that same area as Mercyful Fate. I wouldn’t consider them black metal, but they influenced a lot of black metal. The reverb effects on King Diamond’s vocals, and the theatricality, influenced some black metal. Slayer, on the other hand, was an influence on being “satanic,” but in a more overtly aggressive way.

It’s important to remember, that our genre names are retroactive. Celtic Frost, and Possessed, we’re putting out stuff that could be considered death metal, and Bathory had full length albums, and Mayhem(which is also considered “second wave”) by 1986-7. From what I’ve read, Metallica’s James Hetfield actually referred to his band’s music as “power metal,” until they had already come out with an album or two, at which point calling it thrash had become more popular. Thrash, black, and death all started within a few years of each other. I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:49 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


What the hell did they mean by "white metal"?

I have never once heard that term.

Christian bands such as Stryper and Trouble etc were getting labelled it. This is bringing back memories of reading mags in the late 80's trying to figure it all out.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:51 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I’d consider Bathory the first example of something that’s definitely black metal. I could also count Hellhammer(although I don’t think Celtic Frost is all that black metal). Slayer is in that same area as Mercyful Fate. I wouldn’t consider them black metal, but they influenced a lot of black metal. The reverb effects on King Diamond’s vocals, and the theatricality, influenced some black metal. Slayer, on the other hand, was an influence on being “satanic,” but in a more overtly aggressive way.

It’s important to remember, that our genre names are retroactive. Celtic Frost, and Possessed, we’re putting out stuff that could be considered death metal, and Bathory had full length albums, and Mayhem(which is also considered “second wave”) by 1986-7. From what I’ve read, Metallica’s James Hetfield actually referred to his band’s music as “power metal,” until they had already come out with an album or two, at which point calling it thrash had become more popular. Thrash, black, and death all started within a few years of each other. I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.



This is a great response. Agreed. But it’s hard to deny that Bathory were Black Metal as we know it today all the way back in 84-85. I would also state that Possessed were the bridge between thrash and death, with Death being the first fully realized DM band. So BM does predate DM.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:56 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I’d consider Bathory the first example of something that’s definitely black metal. I could also count Hellhammer.


Agreed 100%. Bathory were the true father(s) of the subgenre, IMO.
Unfortunately, they were almost entirely unknown during most of the 80s by all but the most extreme diehard fans. And even if you had heard of Bathory, good luck finding their albums in stores in the U.S. Heck, it wasn't easy finding early Slayer, Venom, etc., at retail. While every record store stocked Maiden, Priest, etc., the bands on MetalBlade, Combat/Relativity, etc., were not. And Black Mark Records? No chance. That, of course, changed as years progressed.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:15 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.

Early Slayer is most definitely black metal. Look at the photos, read the lyrics and listen. Venom "Black Metal" had a huge impact on the scene in '82, not just musically but with their image and the title itself "Black Metal" became synonymous with satanic/evil metal in general back then. So early Destruction, Sodom, Kreator, Hellhammer/CF, Bathory and Slayer all got lumped into it, but as their images and lyrics changed, and thrash metal itself became massive, the black metal term fell off most of those bands.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:25 pm 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I’d consider Bathory the first example of something that’s definitely black metal. I could also count Hellhammer(although I don’t think Celtic Frost is all that black metal). Slayer is in that same area as Mercyful Fate. I wouldn’t consider them black metal, but they influenced a lot of black metal. The reverb effects on King Diamond’s vocals, and the theatricality, influenced some black metal. Slayer, on the other hand, was an influence on being “satanic,” but in a more overtly aggressive way.

It’s important to remember, that our genre names are retroactive. Celtic Frost, and Possessed, we’re putting out stuff that could be considered death metal, and Bathory had full length albums, and Mayhem(which is also considered “second wave”) by 1986-7. From what I’ve read, Metallica’s James Hetfield actually referred to his band’s music as “power metal,” until they had already come out with an album or two, at which point calling it thrash had become more popular. Thrash, black, and death all started within a few years of each other. I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.


I also agree that Bathory's self titled was the first TRUE black metal album, but to some extent you could count Hellhammer. Hellhammer were closer to black metal than Celtic Frost. I mean really, Hellhammer crossed so many genres before their time it's amazing when you think about it.

They had aspects of what would later be black, doom-death, even some sludgy sounding stuff, some crust/dbeat sounding influence, just so ahead of its time and as early as 1983.

While I love King Diamond and Mercyful Fate, they really never have been similar to any real black metal, 1st or 2nd wave. Honestly, and I'm not a big power metal fan, but in some ways his stuff is closest to a satanic themed and darking sounding power metal band.

The only other band that in some ways could be earlier black metal is Holy Moses and they were SOOO ahead of their time!!

Honestly, they really might be the first black metal band, and in some ways even the first extreme metal band along with Venom, as well as with the first extreme metal female vocalist.

They even had a demo from 1980 called "Black Metal Masters"!!! I have their 1986 album Queen of Siam and let me tell you, IMO that's black metal. It's heavier than thrash, and i've heard some of their other early demos from 82'--85, and i'd call it black metal personally, or at least black-thrash in the same sense you could call Sodom black thrash. That they aren't mentioned more is beyond me.

So when I think first wave of black metal I think: Bathory, Hellhammer, Holy Moses, Sodom, (yes Venom I guess, probably Celtic Frost too by association), Necrodeath from Italy, Bulldozer from Italy, Schizo from Italy, Master's Hammer, Tormentor with Attila, Mortuary Drape. Surprisingly, a lot of early stuff i could consider black metal or black-thrash came out of Italy.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:30 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.

Early Slayer is most definitely black metal. Look at the photos, read the lyrics and listen. Venom "Black Metal" had a huge impact on the scene in '82, not just musically but with their image and the title itself "Black Metal" became synonymous with satanic/evil metal in general back then. So early Destruction, Sodom, Kreator, Hellhammer/CF, Bathory and Slayer all got lumped into it, but as their images and lyrics changed, and thrash metal itself became massive, the black metal term fell off most of those bands.


Even if they were (and I'll entertain the idea for the sake of being open minded) wouldn't you agree that they weren't HEAVY black metal in the true sense like Bathory's first album, or even Hellhammer's stuff with growling vocals?

I mean, they didn't have growling vocals, and they were just never heavy on that level.

I tend to feel like these bands like Slayer, Destruction, Kreator, etc were more "black-thrash" than black, much like Possessed were more "death-thrash" (or maybe thrash should come first in the descriptor?) rather than Death metal: they were bridging the gap between normal thrash and a heavier style moving in a different direction.

But honestly, I hear Holy Moses as being heavier than Slayer. They had growling vocals. I also think Sodom was heavier than Slayer, probably Kreator too.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:38 pm 
 

Seriously, if we are to be honest, this is the earliest true black metal I have ever heard, and it's heavier than Slayer IMO.

Tell me this isn't black metal and SUPER ahead of its time for 1982. I mean seriously NINETEEN--EIGHTY--TWO:

https://youtu.be/rrfxgmS2jTk

And this is their 1986 album Queen of Siam which I have on vinyl. I mean to my ears this is full blow 1st wave black metal right alongside Bathory and the fact that these guys aren't more well known is beyond me...AND with a female singer:

https://youtu.be/JZR6lrA1LfA

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:49 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Even if they were (and I'll entertain the idea for the sake of being open minded) wouldn't you agree that they weren't HEAVY black metal in the true sense like Bathory's first album, or even Hellhammer's stuff with growling vocals?

I mean, they didn't have growling vocals, and they were just never heavy on that level.

I tend to feel like these bands like Slayer, Destruction, Kreator, etc were more "black-thrash" than black, much like Possessed were more "death-thrash" (or maybe thrash should come first in the descriptor?) rather than Death metal: they were bridging the gap between normal thrash and a heavier style moving in a different direction.

But honestly, I hear Holy Moses as being heavier than Slayer. They had growling vocals. I also think Sodom was heavier than Slayer, probably Kreator too.

Well yeah of course if you're looking at things now we can give them more suitable terms. Hell even Mercyful Fate were/are considered black metal. I don't think the level of heaviness is really relevant tho, black metal bands from the 2nd wave onwards had all sorts of heaviness. However, I had no idea growled vocals were a requirement for black metal?

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Kalaratri
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:55 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Seriously, if we are to be honest, this is the earliest true black metal I have ever heard, and it's heavier than Slayer IMO.

Tell me this isn't black metal and SUPER ahead of its time for 1982. I mean seriously NINETEEN--EIGHTY--TWO:

https://youtu.be/rrfxgmS2jTk

And this is their 1986 album Queen of Siam which I have on vinyl. I mean to my ears this is full blow 1st wave black metal right alongside Bathory and the fact that these guys aren't more well known is beyond me...AND with a female singer:

https://youtu.be/JZR6lrA1LfA


I wouldn't really call either of those Holy Moses releases black metal. The stuff from the demo is still more or less in the traditional/NWOBHM mold instrumentally, the only extreme element is Sabina Classen's vocals. The full length is also more in the heavy/speed/thrash mold outside of the vocals. I'd say releases like Sodom's Obsessed by Cruelty or Sepultura's Bestial Devastation EP and Morbid Visions are way more black metal than the early Holy Moses stuff.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:07 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Seriously, if we are to be honest, this is the earliest true black metal I have ever heard, and it's heavier than Slayer IMO.

Tell me this isn't black metal and SUPER ahead of its time for 1982. I mean seriously NINETEEN--EIGHTY--TWO:

https://youtu.be/rrfxgmS2jTk

And this is their 1986 album Queen of Siam which I have on vinyl. I mean to my ears this is full blow 1st wave black metal right alongside Bathory and the fact that these guys aren't more well known is beyond me...AND with a female singer:

https://youtu.be/JZR6lrA1LfA


I wouldn't really call either of those Holy Moses releases black metal. The stuff from the demo is still more or less in the traditional/NWOBHM mold instrumentally, the only extreme element is Sabina Classen's vocals. The full length is also more in the heavy/speed/thrash mold outside of the vocals. I'd say releases like Sodom's Obsessed by Cruelty or Sepultura's Bestial Devastation EP and Morbid Visions are way more black metal than the early Holy Moses stuff.


I don't know, it's heavy as fuck at certain points, I mean really heavy. There's one part in particular I could point out if I went back and looked but you can find it yourself.

I wouldn't argue about Sodom or Sepultura being black metal as I agree that they are, and much moreso than anything Slayer ever did, but to me this stuff is way heavier to my ear than NWOBHM. I mean it's at least as heavy as Venom but with growling vocals, and if you were to put Sabina Classen on Venom albums I'm even more inclined to call those black metal.

Whatever it is, it's way ahead of its time, I think most of us can agree on that.


Edit: Kalarti: Listen to 6:13--6:35 of that first demo. That's VERY heavy for 1982.

And really the whole Queen of Siam album, whilst it has NWOBHM tendencies, I think it also counts for 1st wave black metal.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:09 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Seriously, if we are to be honest, this is the earliest true black metal I have ever heard, and it's heavier than Slayer IMO.

Tell me this isn't black metal and SUPER ahead of its time for 1982. I mean seriously NINETEEN--EIGHTY--TWO:

https://youtu.be/rrfxgmS2jTk

And this is their 1986 album Queen of Siam which I have on vinyl. I mean to my ears this is full blow 1st wave black metal right alongside Bathory and the fact that these guys aren't more well known is beyond me...AND with a female singer:

https://youtu.be/JZR6lrA1LfA

Yeah the '82 demo even surprised me when I heard it a while ago. I used to have their first few albums but while they're good they weren't keepers.

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Ill-Starred Son
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Posts: 1420
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:13 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Seriously, if we are to be honest, this is the earliest true black metal I have ever heard, and it's heavier than Slayer IMO.

Tell me this isn't black metal and SUPER ahead of its time for 1982. I mean seriously NINETEEN--EIGHTY--TWO:

https://youtu.be/rrfxgmS2jTk

And this is their 1986 album Queen of Siam which I have on vinyl. I mean to my ears this is full blow 1st wave black metal right alongside Bathory and the fact that these guys aren't more well known is beyond me...AND with a female singer:

https://youtu.be/JZR6lrA1LfA

Yeah the '82 demo even surprised me when I heard it a while ago. I used to have their first few albums but while they're good they weren't keepers.


I wished you'd have sent them to me lol.

I wish I could find those early demos but those are very rare.

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collingwood77
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:43 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


What the hell did they mean by "white metal"?

I have never once heard that term.


White metal was the most common term used for Christian metal in the 1980s.

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collingwood77
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:47 pm 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
I wouldn’t call Slayer black metal, but that doesn’t mean that early black metal bands weren’t going to take influence from them.

Early Slayer is most definitely black metal. Look at the photos, read the lyrics and listen. Venom "Black Metal" had a huge impact on the scene in '82, not just musically but with their image and the title itself "Black Metal" became synonymous with satanic/evil metal in general back then. So early Destruction, Sodom, Kreator, Hellhammer/CF, Bathory and Slayer all got lumped into it, but as their images and lyrics changed, and thrash metal itself became massive, the black metal term fell off most of those bands.


That German black-thrash of Kreator, Sodom and Destruction became THE standard, signature sound of Australian extreme metal for a long time. Prime examples are Hobbs Angel of Death self-titled from 1988 and Mortification self-titled 1991.

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collingwood77
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
But as to really ask the question further, because I remember I did have a thread about this I think a couple years back, and this is really a question for people who are probably in their 50s or 60s now or at least late 40s, people who were AT LEAST teenagers in the 80s....

When did the term black metal REALLY start to be used, or more importantly was it really used with any frequency in the 80s, and if so, was it mostly amongst the die hard metalheads?


I'm in Australia, which back then was an isolated outpost and behind the times. But I was a teenager in the 1980s and into metal since 1984. I don't recall Black Metal being used as a term at all until the Norwegian scene hit around 1992. In the mid-1980s, the terms used were thrash metal, heavy metal and pop-metal (what is termed hair-metal these days pretty much - the stuff which used to fill up the pages of Hit Parader along with heavier bands). In other countries, obviously, the term Black Metal might have been in common usage earlier.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:50 pm 
 

collingwood77 wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
But as to really ask the question further, because I remember I did have a thread about this I think a couple years back, and this is really a question for people who are probably in their 50s or 60s now or at least late 40s, people who were AT LEAST teenagers in the 80s....

When did the term black metal REALLY start to be used, or more importantly was it really used with any frequency in the 80s, and if so, was it mostly amongst the die hard metalheads?


I'm in Australia, which back then was an isolated outpost and behind the times. But I was a teenager in the 1980s and into metal since 1984. I don't recall Black Metal being used as a term at all until the Norwegian scene hit around 1992. In the mid-1980s, the terms used were thrash metal, heavy metal and pop-metal (what is termed hair-metal these days pretty much - the stuff which used to fill up the pages of Hit Parader along with heavier bands). In other countries, obviously, the term Black Metal might have been in common usage earlier.


Thanks for the response.

We're going to need some more people from other countries who were alive and listening to metal during that era to weigh in for us to really know, but I do remember from an old thread that there were certain people who were around during the era who DID say they heard the term black metal used for the exact same bands we do now, others who say they heard it used but for DIFFERENT kinds of bands, like thrash or even early death metal, and others who said they never heard it used.

Well, being from Australia in the 80s you are probably aware of Slaughter Lord who were definitely a 1st wave black/black-thrash band who formed in 1985 but only released a few semi-legendary demos but I like them quite a bit. Not to mention their drummer Steve Hughes is a HILARIOUS stand up comedian who frequently mentions his role in the band and all the eccentricities of the metal world.

Also, you have Sadistik Exekution who fucking RULED!!! Perhaps the heaviest early band to come from Australia, but they might not count as 1st wave black metal because despite forming in 85' and having demos from the 80s they didn't have a full length album till 1991 which is generally said to be the 1st year of the 2nd wave, but regardless, they fucking kick ass.

Other bands that definitely deserve to be mentioned in 1st wave black metal include: Slaughter (from Canada) the whole Brazilian black/thrash scene with Sarcofago, Vulcano, Mutilator, Holocausto, Sex Trash, etc, Poison (from Germany), NME, Infernal Majesty, Blasphemy who I love and who really were perhaps the first "War metal" band and even had some elements of grindcore in their music, Mefisto from Sweden, Ghostrider from Italy, etc.

I always find the comparison of the Brazliian and Italian black/black thrash-1st wave scenes to be interesting. Both were excellent but it seems that the Brazilian scene gets much more credit when I honestly think those early Italian bands like Mortuary Drape, Schizo, Bulldozer, Necrodeath etc were sometimes just as good. There was also a Czech scene but I don't really know who else was part of it other than Master's Hammer who were brilliant.

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