Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2724
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:25 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
Serious question. SNM through HA (inclusive of HTC) sound as much as first wave and/or proto BM as other storied bands such as Venom, Mercyful Fate and Celtic Frost. What gives?
Equally atmospheric, brutal and satanic. Truly the outlier amongst the “big 4” of thrash.

Any insight? Or am I just deaf?


If you limit your analysis to the big four, of course they are outliers, but they were not outliers when it came to thrash metal in general. Bands like Kreator and Dark Angel both released very agressive, raw, evil thrash metal albums, namely Pleasure to Kill and Darkness Descends. Around the same time, Sodom released two albums often considered proto-black or 1st wave, with Obsessed by Cruelty and Persecution Mania. Other bands, like Destruction also around 85, 86, were releasing fast-paced, relentless and agressive thrash metal.

If it was just a matter of raw agressiveness, satanism and brutality, we would have to lump all these albums under 1st wave, just like Sadus records of the late 80's and early 90's Demolition Hammer, taking away from thrash metal a good chunk of it's more appealling and agressive elements. We often tend to perceive thash metal as less heavy then black and death metal because of the more popular records being by bands who focused less on agression and rawness, but these elements were part of the genre very early on. So again, just lumping all of these under 1st wave black metal would be a mistake, in my opinion.

What defines 1st wave black is a little more intricate then that. It has more to do with specifically black metal song-writing, and things that came to have a huge influence on 2nd wave black metal. This is why, I personnally tend to say that Bathory's S/T was a thrash metal with proto-black metal elements, and that Bathory truly became black metal with The Return...... and even more so with Under the Sign of the Black Mark, that is basically the blueprint of Darkthrone's Under a Funeral Moon, which is arguably the most influential black metal album ever released (not denying Mayhem and Burzum's importance here guys, don't get angry at me :P).

I would also personnally exclude Mercyful Fate from black metal altogether. They did have an impact on defining the themes of the genre, and used to be refered to as black metal before the genre actually took a more definitive shape. Celtic Frost, however, were way ahead of the curve and had a significant influence on shaping black AND death metal, which is still one of the most impressive feats in all of metal history, IMHO.

But Slayer, even if they were dark, fast and heavy, still had mostly thrash metal riffing. I won't deny their influence on black metal, but I'm more comfortable leaving them under thrash metal, not only because it was the core of their sound, but also because they basically followed the same path as other old-school thrash metal bands around the turn of the 90's and started playing half-assed groove/nu-metal stuff instead of actually playing black metal. I love and respect their early material though, and still respect their influence on both black and thrash. But to me they were part of the thrash metal scene of the 80's, and slowly lost speed while the black metal scene was booming.

Top
 Profile  
Space_alligator
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 442
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:39 pm 
 

I've always thought "1st wave" is a awkward term, due to bands being labeled 1st wave having a varied sound, proto-blackmetal i find to be an easier term to work with.
_________________
Ultraboris wrote:
dunno who the fuckhead is who gave the Master of Puppets a zero but damn I'd kick him in the jawnuts any day.

Top
 Profile  
Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 3024
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:51 pm 
 

Space_alligator wrote:
I've always thought "1st wave" is a awkward term, due to bands being labeled 1st wave having a varied sound, proto-blackmetal i find to be an easier term to work with.

It's mostly just semantics but I tend to agree with this.

Top
 Profile  
HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2724
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:02 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Space_alligator wrote:
I've always thought "1st wave" is a awkward term, due to bands being labeled 1st wave having a varied sound, proto-blackmetal i find to be an easier term to work with.

It's mostly just semantics but I tend to agree with this.


I half agree, as I see how the 1st wave can be perceived as too spread out and diverse in terms of sound to really fit under the same genre, but at the same time, the 2nd wave was also extremely diverse, and only feels like a coherent whole if you look at specific scenes, typically the Norwegian scene, with a limited time frame.

I tend to agree that some of what is now considered 1st wave is more thrash/proto-black then black metal, but I can't see Bathory ever not be labelled as black metal. There is nothing proto-black about Under the Sign of the Black Mark. Again, it has basically everything that makes an album black metal, even by today's standard, except tremolo picking. And since proto-black isn't a genre, but more of a qualifier for something that is part of another genre but that had a lot of influence on a scene that followed, how would you label such an album? Thrash metal? It just doesn't feel right for me.

So even though I agree with the premisse, there needs to be a concept to recognize that UTSOTBM (and other albums) were in fact black metal, just not 2nd wave, and that's why 1st wave is used. It's imperfect, but it's still the concept that best defines such albums, IMO.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1234
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:14 pm 
 

collingwood77 wrote:
That German black-thrash of Kreator, Sodom and Destruction became THE standard, signature sound of Australian extreme metal for a long time. Prime examples are Hobbs Angel of Death self-titled from 1988 and Mortification self-titled 1991.

I personally reckon the Hobbs album sounds like a love letter to Slayer '84/'85, borderline plagiarism actually, but I love it.

Top
 Profile  
Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1122
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:53 pm 
 

I guess I need to hear Hobbs Angel of Death cause I never have.

Honestly, I'd never even heard the name mentioned up until maybe a year ago.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1234
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:16 pm 
 

collingwood77 wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


What the hell did they mean by "white metal"?

I have never once heard that term.


White metal was the most common term used for Christian metal in the 1980s.

I believe it was a term created in response to black metal.

Top
 Profile  
septicgoathorn
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:24 am
Posts: 10
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:56 pm 
 

id say slayer were more proto-death than black metal. you can definitely hear hell awaits and reign in blood influence in dm with albums such as altars of madness, eaten back to life, deicide, etc.

Top
 Profile  
MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1234
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:11 am 
 

septicgoathorn wrote:
id say slayer were more proto-death than black metal. you can definitely hear hell awaits and reign in blood influence in dm with albums such as altars of madness, eaten back to life, deicide, etc.

This is where I differ from a lot of folks on here. If you focus only on the music then of course you're not gonna see the connection to BM but if you look at the bigger picture that includes image and lyrics (which is what mainly defined 80s BM) then you'll see the connection. Tho I definitely think that Slayers music would've inspired in some way as well, especially the early stuff.

Top
 Profile  
collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:01 am 
 

[This post was removed by the author.]


Last edited by collingwood77 on Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:04 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
collingwood77 wrote:
That German black-thrash of Kreator, Sodom and Destruction became THE standard, signature sound of Australian extreme metal for a long time. Prime examples are Hobbs Angel of Death self-titled from 1988 and Mortification self-titled 1991.

I personally reckon the Hobbs album sounds like a love letter to Slayer '84/'85, borderline plagiarism actually, but I love it.


It is an outstanding album, that manic energy and aggression, that whole "is it out of control or under control?" thing, wilder than Slayer or Bonded by Blood even, if that were possible. I love the first three tracks in particular. And what creative powers to write a song about Marie Antoinette.

Top
 Profile  
collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:06 am 
 

MetlaNZ wrote:
Post '82 black metal and white metal were descriptive terms used by some writers and reviewers. But those terms were nowhere near as popular as thrash, so most extreme bands were labelled thrash (or speed) by comps, mags and fans.


What the hell did they mean by "white metal"?

I have never once heard that term.[/quote]

White metal was the most common term used for Christian metal in the 1980s.[/quote]
I believe it was a term created in response to black metal.[/quote]

Probably yes. Interestingly, Christian power metal band, Sacred Warrior, had a track called "Black Metal" in 1988 which was against the satanic bands. It had that hilarious line about "hair parted between the eyes" - referring to that cliche BM look, I didn't realize it was a well-known cliche as early as 1988.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], OzzyApu, Spiner202, StarshipTrooper, Waltz_of_Ghouls and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group