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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1793
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:59 am 
 

....because 'tis the season and there's more than a handful of Doom/Death loving members on this board. Same rules as the thrash thread, limit to ten and explain a bit why.

Without further fuckery;

#10 - Winter - Into Darkness

Whatever happened to that curmudgeon of the board, droneriot? He went on a fair bit about this record and nothing pleased him very much. I had heard about this landmark of an album before I read his high praise but I'd never warmed to it (frozen to it?) just yet. The production wasn't exactly my preferred thing but there's no denying the massive plod this thing staggers with. Celtic Frost riffs slowed down is as apt as anything I've heard said about it. Thick, thick tone and intent. Not exactly suffocating but enveloping as all hell. This is a classic on how to meld the stinky worlds of Doom and Death. Nothing stands out, Everything stands out.

#9 - Paradise Lost - Lost Paradise

This debut spawned so much for the subgenre. I seem to be quoting MA reviewers today so here's Gutterscream;
"What’s going on here is respectably unglamorous and touched with shame, pitiless with a Neanderthal mindedness of cooking rats over an open fire because that’s all that’s available". Yes, thank you. And I agree. The creative initiative PL took with this album that drew out the more sinister aspects of death metal and glorified them with measly production is sort of the first signal for bitter, dreary times ahead. Every song is sharply bent and formed and Nick Holmes has perhaps never sounded more threatening.

#8 - My Dying Bride - As The Flower Withers

Even more threatening than PL's debut, MDB's debut sounds disgustingly antediluvian. Lyrics in Latin, Morbid Angel riff breakouts ("The Forever People") but in like a dank cemetery and songs that tested your patience with fear. "The Return Of The Beautiful" is an epic journey of such tumult and still the most underrated song in MDB's cannon. This thing holds up all these years later.

#7 - Evoken - Embrace the Emptiness

Funeral Doom, you say? Well their debut (this one) and really much of their entire catalog is built upon lengthening the tropes of Doom/Death into sublime darkness (protracting the dramatic pauses between riffs and enhancing the contemplative nature of melodic lines etc.). This album is autumnal greatness and probably the most immediately digestible of their works (though Hypnagogia is quite accessible too, methinks). To quote erebuszine from a 2013 review;

"This music comes to me like a sweet darkened healing balm to my ears, a bliss-filled smothering in the heavy air of civilization's demise, and a long journey for my mind to take through the collapse of ruined centuries - a dream landscape littered with eidolons of the night, vast crumbling edifices swathed in the fading light of forgotten sunsets, and gloom-drowned subterranean worlds where the music of lost souls is eternally played by avatars of Orpheus - the true Lethe of Evoken."

Dudes get wordy when the subject of Evoken is broached. Doom/Death is usually poetic or contemplative stuff so I guess that's apt. Moving on...

#6 - Draconian - Arcane Rain Fell

The offspring of My Dying Bride and Theatre of Tragedy made a truly, truly morose, haunting and intensively depressing album with "Arcane Rain Fell". It's not a slog though. There's a wealth of dynamism...and not just the switching vocals either but the riffing flows into that midpace very nicely. But it is oppressive like the best on this list and just as poetic and inward-looking.

#5 - Katatonia - Brave Murder Day

A denser approach from the debut. Katatonia were pushing the envelope so much back then. This blurs the subgenre lines but why would you care about that when it's easier to get swept away with what's presented. Droning semblances of riffs and morbid vocalizations of tender moments. It's always been best to consume this as one and then worry about your sanity afterwards.

#4 - Runemagick - Moon Of The Chaos Eclipse

I just love this album and the absolute carnage of riffs it bears. "Revolution of The Dead" is careening evil death metal complete with sighs and a dramatic intro, it's the centerpiece as far as I'm concerned. Runemagick got a tad swampier elsewhere and their entire discography is respectable but this rather riffs-first, atmosphere-second album is my favorite. Check it out.

#3 - My Dying Bride - Turn Loose The Swans

In some instances, My Dying Bride operated like the ultimate Doom/Death lords and nowhere is this as evident as on their second album. This is perhaps also their first full dip into the gothic well with the opening and closing tracks. But elsewhere we've got hefty riffs and beastly growls and a tightness to the songs that holds you and throws you down just as hard. To quote caspian;

"The best songs here have got a very elegant touch to it that for some reason reminds me of Thergothon; no idea why but I guess it's again, the "flowing" nature of MDB's stuff. The best of MDB's stuff flows along at a very dignified, stately pace, and Aaron's excellent lyrics really work in favor of said dignity."

#2 - Paradise Lost - Gothic

Sounds like no other album even they did. Atmospheric but not in overwhelming dreary ways, riffy but not in stereotypical formats, strangled and oppressive but not overdone....a well-balanced and savvy approach to songwriting. A true monument to doom songcraft. ETERNAL classic, Amen.

#1 - Katatonia - Dance Of December Souls

Yes!

I stand as I cry
Mourning in the Silent rain
Death will light my Burden
Endless is my Sorrow
Gateways so Dark
All these years of Dying


Just, YES!

HONORABLES

Derkéta - In Death We Meet
Novembers Doom - Of Sculptured Ivy and Stone Flowers
Amorphis - The Karelian Isthmus
Saturnus - Paradise Belongs to You
Disembowelment - Transcendence into the Peripheral
Dusk - ...Majestic Thou in Ruin
Daylight Dies - Dismantling Devotion
Asphyx - Deathhammer
Morgion - Among Majestic Ruin
Evoken - Quietus
My Dying Bride - The Light at The End of The World
Mourning Beloveth - The Sullen Sulcus
Visceral Evisceration - Incessant Desire for Palatable Flesh
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Gas_Snake wrote:
....my attention span is not your guinea pig. If even one of your songs exceeds 10 minutes, you're either a fucking genius or you need to self-edit that shit.

Empyreal wrote:
Seems like a pretty reductive way to see art.

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Benedict Donald
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:33 am 
 

I've never understood the love for "Dance of December Souls". I know i'm in the minority, but I'll take "B.M.D." instead, every time.

1) My Dying Bride - Turn Loose the Swans
I usually cringe when I hear someone say an album is "life changing", but this is as close to that as it comes, for me.

I blindly picked this up in 1994 after reading its review in Metal Maniacs Magazine -- I'd never heard a note of this band (nor even of Paradise Lost) but was really intrigued by the review's description. After buying and listening, I'd never heard music like this before. To my ears, it was truly progressive -- and the atmosphere was (and still is) unmatched. It's more than just a doom album. It's a top 5 all-time metal album, IMO.

2) My Dying Bride - The Angel & The Dark River
Those years were clearly a creative time for MDB, as "Angel" was quite a departure (at least around the edges) from the previous records. For a second time, this band produced something that I'd never heard before, with the 100% clean vocals and heavy use of violin, and the quasi-progressive song structures. At this time, there was no band quite like this.

3) Katatonia - Brave Murder Day
I was a fan of Opeth and when I read that Mikael had guested on this album, and after reading some very positive reviews, I jumped in. The gloom was a tangible thing....thick as thieves. This was more depressing & hypnotic than anything I'd heard before. A perfect record.

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colin040
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:44 am 
 

Truth to be told, plenty of doom/death metal were rather flawed, but I'm a big fan of this style nonetheless. Don't really think that doom/death metal suits any Amorphis album, though...the debut is more death metal than anything else.

Anyway, some of my favorites:

Katatonia - Dance of December Souls

An enormous emotional rollercoaster with overpowering vocals, seductive guitars, engaged drums and aventurous songs. It's clearly inspired by PL's Gothic, but Paradise Lost never wrote something this daring....unfortunately, neither did Katatonia themselves! A few bands were influenced by this era of Katatonia but most suck and the one that's carrying the early Katatonia torch onward with succes would be Asphodelus (who formed in 2016, for fuck's sake!), but yeah, fantastic album.

Dark Millennium - Ashore the Celestial Burden

A serious underrated proggy doom/death metal that's one of a kind. I can easily picture non doom/death metal fans getting something out if. It's mysterious, yet rather riff-centered and besides one track (''Medina' Spell'', which is a bit plain), it's absolutely top notch stuff.

Ceremonium - No Longer Silent

Another underrated album, but it's another fantastic album...much better than the dragging debut. Its got riffs for decays and some of the tremolo sections are highly unique...almost making me think of Darkthrone's Soulside Journey gone doom/death. Coincidentally, this album also features a Darkthrone cover, which is ''Cromlech'' - not much of a fan of it...but the rest sounds superb.

Divine Eve - Upon These Ashes Scorn the World

One of the best compilation albums out there. Sort of a mix between Celtic Frost and Entombed...slowed down to a proper doom pace at times. It features two unnecessary covers, but otherwise it's fantastic stuff. I really enjoy the gruff vocals, too.

October Tide - Rain Without End

Melodic doom/death metal doesn't get better than this. Love the autumnal atmosphere and the evocative riffs that come with it. It may not be a heavy album, but it's pretty damn spectacular. Unfortunately the band slowly went downhill and none of the October Tide-inspired bands come close to this, either.

Other honorable mentions include:

Argentum - Ad Interitum Funebrarum

Not sure if it really belongs to this list, but it gets close to the doom/death category at least...almost sounding like an overpowering and occult affraid that blends Mystifer and early Tiamat. Love the flashy guitar solos and unique harsh vocals.

Asphodelus - Stygian Dreams

Early Katatonia meets Hellenic black metal...this is one hell of a promising new band. I'm rather curious about their upcoming album, too.

Asphyx - Last One on Earth

I'm definitely not a huge Asphyx fan, but the band definitely got it right on this album. Martin van Drunen's vocals are sick, as are the flamethrowers, err...I mean guitars! The title track has a serious apocalyptic vibe going on...great stuff.

Crimson Relic - Purgatory's Reign

Basically a continuation of early Divine Eve...with some thrash-y touches here and there. Killer stuff! A real highlight of 1996.

Funeral Cult - Korowody Cieni

A unique take on doom/death metal with plenty of ''lead riffs'' being responsible for the action and the drama there. Poland had a thing for unusual doom/death metal and this is definitely one of the best examples that I can think of.

Grindmaster Dead - Stronger than Love

Don't let the silly album title turn you off. This is raw and crude doom/death metal that doesn't forget about the DOOM! Has some nods to early Black Sabbath and mixes them up with some aggressive, well-timed death metal here and there.

Hooded Menace's latest two albums

Don't care about their early stuff, but they've been kicking serious ass since 2018. The album from that year features a great contrast between melody and grit, whereas the last one even embraces some heavy metal influences with superb results. One of those bands that always remained doom/death metal but changed for the best for me.

Paradise Lost - Gothic

Extremely influential of course...features some obvious gimmicks (such as the auto-tuned spoken word sections) and the production isn't the best, but this remains PL's most creative album...Greg really knew how to achieve great results with minimal effort.

Runemagick - Moon of the Chaos Eclipse

The best doom/death metal album of this band. It features massive grooves, never-ending riffs and superb sense of ebb and flow. Not to mention that this band release two albums in the same year!

Worm - their latest two albums.

Sort of a more accessible take on Disembowelment's style...the former even reminds me of Goatlord at times during those mid-paced sections. Very cool band.

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Floodland
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:58 am
Posts: 189
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:57 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
I've never understood the love for "Dance of December Souls". I know i'm in the minority, but I'll take "B.M.D." instead, every time.



This, a thousand times.

Also, Winter's Into Darkness should have been number one or two; an all-obliterating crowning achievement of sorrow, darkness and despair.
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joppek
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Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:20 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Don't really think that doom/death metal suits any Amorphis album, though...the debut is more death metal than anything else.


i'd say it fits tales decently enough to mention - luckily it's also their best album

in addition to that, i'll also add most of the whole discography of coffins on here

i don't which asphyx album i like more, the rack or last one on earth, but both ought to be included

and of course celtic frost - monotheist... ok, so it doesn't matter if the thread is about death, doom, black, or thrash, celtic frost always gets mentioned, but deservedly so

i should really give more proper listens to runemagick's later albums - i always gravitate toward the first two, and they're clearly much more death than death/doom
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colin040
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:49 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
colin040 wrote:
Don't really think that doom/death metal suits any Amorphis album, though...the debut is more death metal than anything else.


i'd say it fits tales decently enough to mention - luckily it's also their best album

in addition to that, i'll also add most of the whole discography of coffins on here

i don't which asphyx album i like more, the rack or last one on earth, but both ought to be included

and of course celtic frost - monotheist... ok, so it doesn't matter if the thread is about death, doom, black, or thrash, celtic frost always gets mentioned, but deservedly so

i should really give more proper listens to runemagick's later albums - i always gravitate toward the first two, and they're clearly much more death than death/doom


I used to like Tales from the Thousand Lakes quite a bit in my teen years, but it's one of those albums that I've rather started to dislike over the years.

That Celtic Frost album...I don't like it either. I guess that I can appreciate that dark atmospheric thing the band was going for, but shit...WHERE ARE THE RIFFS?!

As far as Runemagick's doom/death metal era goes, you'll probably have your best time going chronologically. THe 2002 albums are the most instant ones, the 2003-2004 stuff becomes more atmospheric, though they're still riffy and the 2005-2007 stuff sounds even more expanded (although I don't like those at all). Whatever you do, avoid the last two albums; they sound like they were played on auto pilot. :lol:

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abyss696
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Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:50 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:04 pm 
 

I love most of the albums the OP put, to add some variety I'll add a list of personal favourites instead of almost replicate his entire list!

-Anathema - Serenades. I love this album! My favourite is still The Silent Enigma but I don't think that qualifies as death/doom so I choose Serenades instead.

-Spina Bifida - Ziyadah. Netherlands were so prolific in this specific genre, this is a perfect example of death/doom in its purest form.

-Dusk - Mourning... Resurrect. Monolithic death/doom, the guitar sound in this album is dense as a fucking black hole

-Decomposed: Hope Finally Died... another instant classic, slow, pounding, dense as fuck!

-Etherial Winds - Find The Way... Together: another band from the Netherlands, another killer death/doom album much in the same vein as Spina Bifida

-The Gathering - Always: many people forgot that this dutch band, before morphing into a experimental rock (or wathever is called) band, released this amazing death/doom album as debut.

-Thergothon - Streams From The Heavens: the music and vocals fit perfectly the atmosphere of the album and its lovecraftian concept. I love the dirty sound it has, like it was recorded in one of those forgotten halls full of ancient carved images of elder gods and unknown creatures...

-Disembowelment - Trascendence Into The Peripherial: the music is very atmospheric but at the same time dark and crushing! The blast beating moments make great contrast with the slow tempos and the keyboards sound add an extra layer of darkness.

-Thorns Of The Carrion: The Scarlet Tapestry: Death/doom with keyboards, some clean vocals and an overall romantic feeling. A lot of people consider this album the precursor of gothic doom genre.

-Ophis: Withered Shades: no melodies, no keyboards, just fucking darkness and despair. Sometimes slow stuff can be heavier than the fastest shit, and this is a perfect example.

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Floodland
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:26 pm 
 

OK, some of the above mentioned classics are an utter borefest, so here's mine in no particular order:

Winter - Into darkness
Pitch black depravity and a musical monument for man's ultimate downfall

Sorrow - Hatred and disgust
Gut wrenching heaviness and bleakness. This shit is the definition of heavy music.

Delirium - ZZooouuohh
Left field and weird, this is a one time experience out of hell. That's what happens when you eat your fries with mayo.

November's Doom - Amidst its hollow mirth
Crushing American doom/death of the highest order. The debut and the best from this band. Period.

Morgion - Solinari.
Majestic, simply Majestic.

Tristitia - Crucidiction
Holy Mary mother of god, what a beautiful beast is this behemoth. Twisted, dark and singular.

Katatonia - Brave murder day
The one Katatonia to rule them all. I cannot even start explaining what this album is to me; Mikael Akerfeldt at his best throat performance ever, and in general Katatonia's crowning achievement; beyond beautiful, beyond dark, beyond unique and beyond fun!

My Dying Bride - As the flower withers
OK, I know MDB has a lot of classics which I also adore, from both their growling death-metal oriented era as well as from their more gothic phase, however should anyone desire experiencing the ultimate MDB experience, this doom/death mammoth of a beast is everything one needs, The heaviest, darkest, unsettling and eerie MDB recording; alsmost impenetrable yet still bizarrely romantic.
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Last edited by Floodland on Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:38 pm 
 

Floodland wrote:
OK, some of the above mentioned classics are an utter borefest, so here's mine in no particular order:


Says the guy who mentions Brave Murder Day. That album would make a good lullaby, but it's not even doom/death metal let alone a good album! :p

Those Sorrow and Delirium albums rule, though...the former is pretty damn unique; at least I can think about anything that's really like it. That Delirium album is a good example of Celtic Frost-flavored doom/death metal and as far as 1990 doom/death goes, certainly the best one out there!

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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:17 pm 
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again... almost all of the 90s stuff is just gothic metal with death metal vocals, or even just slow melodeath. I don't hear any similarities between something flowery and pretty like Paradise Lost and a band as utterly crushing and deranged as Disembowelment. Just because they both have slower tempos doesn't make them the same genre. I'll never understand why everyone lumps them together.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1793
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:24 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again... almost all of the 90s stuff is just gothic metal with death metal vocals, or even just slow melodeath. I don't hear any similarities between something flowery and pretty like Paradise Lost and a band as utterly crushing and deranged as Disembowelment. Just because they both have slower tempos doesn't make them the same genre. I'll never understand why everyone lumps them together.


What???

Theatre of Tragedy can be described as flowery but not Paradise Lost. PL and My Dying Bride influenced what became Funeral Doom. They certainly played up the more morose aspects of Doom while a band like Disembowelment played up the Death.

It's like thrash where you have bands that are closer to the punk or NWOBHM roots and others that are more extreme.

Doom metal is allowed to have a broad range too, y'know.
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Floodland
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:25 pm 
 

Paradise Lost's debut is doom/death (i.e. slow death metal) of the classic kind devoid of any gothic influences, whereas Disembowelment play more clinical slow paced death metal with an industrial flair, flaked with some grindcore moments. There are sometimes some overlapping qualities, however many of the aforementioned albums are classic doom/death which is indeed a slow type of death metal, some of the purest kind and some allow other aesthetics to sip in, nothing wrong with that.
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Slater922
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:32 pm 
 

Here's my top 5 classics

1: Disembowelment - Transcendence into the Peripheral
2: Paradise Lost - Lost Paradise
3: Winter - Into Darkness
4: Katatonia - Dance of December Souls
5: Thorr's Hammer - Dommedagsnatt

Thorr's Hammer is such an underrated band, and I love how slow and heavy Dommedagsnatt is. Katatonia's first two albums are great, but I find myself coming back to DODS with its stronger riffs. Winter's only studio album is amazing, and I wished the band released more material. Paradise Lost's debut pretty much beats out their later gothic metal stuff. And then there's Transcendence into the Peripheral. Disembowelment is able to mix in doom metal, death metal, and some progressive riffs perfectly, and it's an essential to anyone who's getting into death/doom metal.
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Floodland
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:38 pm 
 

Slater922 wrote:
Here's my top 5 classics

Thorr's Hammer - Dommedagsnatt



Good call. Totally forgot that one. Such a frail looking beautiful blond girl able to voice those monstrous growls, it blows the mind...
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Rodman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:34 pm 
 

Are we classifying November's Doom as doom/death? The Pale Haunt Departure is a banger.

(I'm not familiar with the rest of their discography, so feel free to point me in the direction of other stellar ND albums).
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Floodland
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:47 pm 
 

Rodman wrote:
Are we classifying November's Doom as doom/death? The Pale Haunt Departure is a banger.

(I'm not familiar with the rest of their discography, so feel free to point me in the direction of other stellar ND albums).


Their debut is amazing doom/death, and unlike any other of their subsequent releases...
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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:52 pm 
 

Rodman wrote:
Are we classifying November's Doom as doom/death? The Pale Haunt Departure is a banger.

(I'm not familiar with the rest of their discography, so feel free to point me in the direction of other stellar ND albums).


One of my favorite bands from the American scene. They have been consistently Doom/Death but a lot of their post-The Knowing albums are sorta unfairly considered Opeth clones. Their first two albums are classics as is Pale Haunt Departure.

I'd also suggest Aphotic as a stellar Doom/Death album.
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Gas_Snake wrote:
....my attention span is not your guinea pig. If even one of your songs exceeds 10 minutes, you're either a fucking genius or you need to self-edit that shit.

Empyreal wrote:
Seems like a pretty reductive way to see art.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:00 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Grindmaster Dead - Stronger than Love

Don't let the silly album title turn you off. This is raw and crude doom/death metal that doesn't forget about the DOOM! Has some nods to early Black Sabbath and mixes them up with some aggressive, well-timed death metal here and there.


Wow. Just checked this out. I think I'd heard them before. Really ancient sounding but with killer riffs. I can't believe these are the guys that became Skyforger, a band I really don't care for.

The flute is a nice touch. I'm reminded a bit of Paramaecium who also had flute on Exhumed of the Earth.
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Gas_Snake wrote:
....my attention span is not your guinea pig. If even one of your songs exceeds 10 minutes, you're either a fucking genius or you need to self-edit that shit.

Empyreal wrote:
Seems like a pretty reductive way to see art.

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Benedict Donald
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:16 pm 
 

Floodland wrote:
Rodman wrote:
Are we classifying November's Doom as doom/death? The Pale Haunt Departure is a banger.

(I'm not familiar with the rest of their discography, so feel free to point me in the direction of other stellar ND albums).


Their debut is amazing doom/death, and unlike any other of their subsequent releases...


Agreed. And while I quite enjoy the debut, "Pale Haunt" is their masterpiece, IMO.

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robotiq
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:40 pm 
 

This genre is patchy, particularly with the full-lengths. I think that some of the mini-releases, demos and EPs often fare better than the albums.

Anyway some of my favourites below (regardless of length):

My Dying Bride - Symphonairre... (this is much better than the debut album)
Paradise Lost - Gothic (has better songs than Lost Paradise)
Dusk - Majestic... Thou in Ruin (love this one)
Asphyx - Embrace the Death ("The Rack" is a straight death metal album, but this one is certainly death/doom)
Dark Millennium - Ashore the Celestial Burden (for the reasons Colin stated above)
Autopsy - Retribution for the Dead (does this count? certainly pretty doomy)
Unholy - The Second Ring of Power (still deathly enough to count, I think)

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:44 pm 
 

robotiq wrote:
This genre is patchy, particularly with the full-lengths. I think that some of the mini-releases, demos and EPs often fare better than the albums.

Anyway some of my favourites below (regardless of length):

My Dying Bride - Symphonairre... (this is much better than the debut album)


God Is Alone and De Sade Soliloquay do nothing for me but the title track is just devastating. One of the finest things they did. Every song on As the Flower Withers on the other hand, I absolutely love.
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Empyreal wrote:
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:02 am 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again... almost all of the 90s stuff is just gothic metal with death metal vocals, or even just slow melodeath. I don't hear any similarities between something flowery and pretty like Paradise Lost and a band as utterly crushing and deranged as Disembowelment. Just because they both have slower tempos doesn't make them the same genre. I'll never understand why everyone lumps them together.


This is like the melodic death debate. Some people only want to count the riffing style, but if we do that it becomes a pretty tiny scene, and it ignores decades of musical journalism and fan conversation to satisfy death metal purism. It's easier in this case just to think of it as death(influenced)/doom, and sometimes the only or predominant DM influence is just in the presence of some growls, but given the centrality vocals tend to have, that's still enough influence in my book. I'm all for "death doom" and "melodic death doom" as separate but related categories though, as there's clearly a difference (with some gray area and movement back and forth) between say, Spectral Voice and the more melodic and/or gothic-flavored ones, which are going to dominate my own list.

Anyway, here it is.

1: Draconian - Sovran

No one does what they do better than them. Smothering riffs mixed with beautiful melodies galore.

2: Daylight Dies - A Frail Becoming

Hard to pick between their last three, but this one has just a bit more variety and more accomplished guitar work, so that's what I'm going with. This picks up the old Katatonia melodic death/doom sound and modernizes it with a vibrant, rich sound.

3: Hallatar - No Stars On the Bridge

The tragic circumstances of this album give the bleakness of the doom an uncomfortably palpable presence. Aleah and Heike's tracks are especially poignant.

4: Katatonia - Brave Murder Day

I don't get why the death metal/shoegaze hybrid never (or yet?) took off like it did with with blackgaze, but this is about as close as we get to it, and it's glorious. I think a lot of people here love this album even more than I do, and it deserves all the acclaim it receives. As much as I love Jonas and Anders' work, Mike steals the show here.

5: Thalarion - Four Elements Mysterium

Easily the most overlooked album here. I heard "A Herald of Sorrow & Wretchedness" before I was ready for it, and found the beauty and beast dynamic amusing at first, but this album has really held up well and I keep coming back to it as a far too unsung album with all of the right ingredients.

6: Amorphis - The Karelian Isthmus

This is essentially the perfect halfway album between the more melodic Finnish death metal bands and the really dirty, filthy ones. The guitar tone is rancid in a similar but different way that I love a lot of Swedeath.

7: Nox Aurea - Ascending in Triumph

When I said no one does what Draconian does better than them, that's true, but this is probably as near as anyone has ever been to successfully cloning them. Musically I think they're actually reasonably close, with somewhat weaker songwriting, though Kullberg might be more savage than Jacobsson, but there's no replacing Heike and Lisa.

8: November's Doom - Aphotic

My preference for a particular album isn't as strong here. I'm just going to go with this one because it has guest tracks from Anneke and Dan. But they're all quality releases, blending in so many metal elements seamlessly, with each album perhaps slanting a bit towards a particular subgenre more than others, and Paul's vocals are always ferocious.

9: October Tide - Rain Without End

Really hard to pick one of these too. Jonas channels his abandoned more deathly Katatonia ideas here, and I just can't get enough of that sound. I do appreciate the later ones for being engineered to be more crushing though, and giving the Norrman brothers a new venue.

10: Swallow The Sun - New Moon

More album selection troubles, they're all fairly consistent. I'll go with this one because of the Aleah track, and in case it's not obvious, part of what I really dig about this style is the contrast of the suffocating instrumentation with angelic, elegiac melodies, and this album has more of those, also in the backing vocals on some tracks.

Honorable mentions - Ahab, Anathema, Ataraxie, Doom: VS, Cianide, Coffins, Depressed Mode, Enshine, Evadne, Evoken, Funeral, The Gathering, Heavenwood, Helevorn, Hooded Menace, *Lethian Dreams, Mourning Beloveth, My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, Paramaecium, Rapture, *Raving Season, Saturnus, Shape of Despair, Sins of They Beloved, Slumber, Spectral Voice, Theatre of Tragedy, Tiamat, Urza, Vallenfyre, *Virgin Black, When Nothing Remains, Wind From Tears, and *Within Temptation.

The starred ones would ideally be on the list, but don't quite fit as well as needed. Amorphis and Katatonia are already probably controversial enough.

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:17 am 
 

1. Paradise Lost - Gothic '91
Influential would be an understatement. Both beautiful and brutal, it's a timeless classic.

2. Autopsy - Mental Funeral '91
One of my favourite albums of all time. A filthy, rotten and chaotic mix of death and doom. Perfect and godly.

3. Asphyx - The Rack '91
An incredibly brutal guitar tone and sickened vocals highlight songs that will wildly gallop along and then suddenly slow down to an agonizing crawl. Asphyx are death/doom masters.

4. Paradise Lost - Shades Of God '92
Awesome follow up to Gothic and probably my favourite PL album, the songs... just fuckin awesome.

5. Autopsy - Acts Of The Unspeakable '92
Autopsy make death/doom for punks. I fuckin love it.

6. diSEMBOWELMENT - Transcendence Into The Peripheral '93
One minute you're sculling a filthy fuckin Fosters while hooning along in ya V8 Falcon and then from out of nowhere a bloody Gum tree jumps out at ya in sllooowwww fuckin motion, there's a flash of light and then you're speeding again... except it's down the highway to bloody hell.

7. Celtic Frost - Monotheist '06
8. Triptykon - Eparistera Daimones '10
9. Triptykon - Melana Chasmata '14
Tom G. brought his fuckin A game for this trilogy of goddamned classics. Each one is a masterpiece.

10. Godthrymm - Reflections '20
The new gods? Maybe.

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Zephirus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:37 pm
Posts: 513
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:58 am 
 

great genre, one of my favourites.

love that new Godthrymm, hoping they build on the strength of it with the next one

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6605
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:24 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again... almost all of the 90s stuff is just gothic metal with death metal vocals, or even just slow melodeath. I don't hear any similarities between something flowery and pretty like Paradise Lost and a band as utterly crushing and deranged as Disembowelment. Just because they both have slower tempos doesn't make them the same genre. I'll never understand why everyone lumps them together.


This is like the melodic death debate. Some people only want to count the riffing style, but if we do that it becomes a pretty tiny scene, and it ignores decades of musical journalism and fan conversation to satisfy death metal purism. It's easier in this case just to think of it as death(influenced)/doom, and sometimes the only or predominant DM influence is just in the presence of some growls, but given the centrality vocals tend to have, that's still enough influence in my book. I'm all for "death doom" and "melodic death doom" as separate but related categories though, as there's clearly a difference (with some gray area and movement back and forth) between say, Spectral Voice and the more melodic and/or gothic-flavored ones, which are going to dominate my own list.


I do think that the doom/death metal tag is helpful, but you'll have to admit that it's somewhat misleading at times. Bands like Divine Eve and Cianide fall under this category just fine, but even when you'd mention Paradise Lost, the term might be used better as a tool that sums up a certain collection of ideas, instead of using it as a downright accurate term. Lost Paradise falls into the doom/death metal camp to me just fine. But Gothic might be off better viewed from a gothic/doom perspective than a doom/death metal perspective; minus ''Dead Emotion'' it's not much of a heavy album and with plenty of palm-muted picked power chords driving the album forward on a relatively brisk pace, it's already a lot different from the debut. Of course, you could also debate whether Shades of God and Medusa would actually fall under the doom/death category...we don't use the term ''doom metal with harsh vocals'', but it's clear that there's no death metal riffs on those albums either. Not to mention that even the bands with a few death metal riffs might not be proper doom/death metal either...but then again, we don't call the majority of Greek black metal black/heavy either, right?

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:55 am 
 

I never got where the confusion came from. You obviously have bands that are playing death metal but at a slower pace like Cianide. For a lot of Doom/Death bands, the emphasis is on Doom, the only death metal qualities being retained being the sometimes growled vocals. In place of "death metal riffs" you have doom riffs and/or other explicitly enhanced doom qualities.

Those inclined to nitpick will go "well if there's no death metal riffs it ain't Doom/Death". If you want death metal riffs, listen to Death metal, specifically OSDM and its revivalist bands. Even the architects of Doom/Death moved away from explicit death metal riffs a long time ago...and death metal-styled vocals in this context of extreme doom metal are enough of a qualifier for it to be Doom/Death.

Here's how I break it down;

Doom/Death - My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, Novembers Doom, early Katatonia, Draconian, Mourning Beloveth, Daylight Dies and other bands in this vein.

Death/Doom - Winter, Runemagick, Asphyx, Cianide, Hooded Menace, Druid Lord, some Incantation etc. Bands where the emphasis is primarily on Death metal and there aren't any Gothic tendencies. Basically Death metal that uses the slow tempos attributed to Doom to craft a (usually) menacing atmosphere.
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Empyreal wrote:
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:38 am 
 

I've never been big on Paradise Lost, Katatonia, or Novembers Doom, really.

But My Dying Bride, Draconian, and (early) Theatre of Tragedy?

*chef's kiss*

That's my shit, right there.

"Turn Loose the Swans" and "The Angel and the Dark River," specifically. My Dying Bride were a goddamn revelation.
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mirons
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Latvia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:41 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
colin040 wrote:
Grindmaster Dead - Stronger than Love

Don't let the silly album title turn you off. This is raw and crude doom/death metal that doesn't forget about the DOOM! Has some nods to early Black Sabbath and mixes them up with some aggressive, well-timed death metal here and there.


Wow. Just checked this out. I think I'd heard them before. Really ancient sounding but with killer riffs. I can't believe these are the guys that became Skyforger, a band I really don't care for.

The flute is a nice touch. I'm reminded a bit of Paramaecium who also had flute on Exhumed of the Earth.


Check out Druun, who are influenced a lot by Grindmaster Dead. They even have the same drummer and do a cover of GD. That said, there is overall more of the folk influence, tempos lean more towards funeral doom, and the riffs don't sound quite as crushing and raw.

Spoiler: show

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robotiq
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:08 am
Posts: 81
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
I never got where the confusion came from. You obviously have bands that are playing death metal but at a slower pace like Cianide. For a lot of Doom/Death bands, the emphasis is on Doom, the only death metal qualities being retained being the sometimes growled vocals. In place of "death metal riffs" you have doom riffs and/or other explicitly enhanced doom qualities.

Those inclined to nitpick will go "well if there's no death metal riffs it ain't Doom/Death". If you want death metal riffs, listen to Death metal, specifically OSDM and its revivalist bands. Even the architects of Doom/Death moved away from explicit death metal riffs a long time ago...and death metal-styled vocals in this context of extreme doom metal are enough of a qualifier for it to be Doom/Death.


Broadly speaking I agree with this. I think there is a distinction between these two 'genres' (whatever we decide to call them). However, I think there are a couple of extra layers to it.
In the beginning, this was all death metal. Early MDB, PL and Anathema are clearly death metal. The form of the songs and the complexity is very similar to the most atmospheric death metal at the time (listen to a song like "Symphonnaire..." or "Vast Choirs" or "The Sweet Suffering").
These UK bands began to move away from death metal quickly, even on the first MDB album there are some songs (like "Sear Me") that move towards something more plodding.

Bands like Cianide and Autopsy played 'slow death metal', the latter in particular had plenty of Sabbath riffs. Elsewhere you had Celtic Frost as the main influence on bands like Winter and Delirium.

The difference, I think, is more aesthetic than musical. The Peaceville bands had an emotional focus, lots of focus on mourning and stuff like that. This was more inspired by European Romanticism (Milton, Blake, Caspar David Friedrich, etc) than it was by gore and horror films. What those bands had was an emotional wrench . This is also present in Dusk, the first Novembers Doom album, and (then) in Mourning Beloveth ("Godether" might be an example of this taken to an extreme).
Autopsy, Cianide, Rippikoulu, etc were always rooted in the old school death metal aesthetic. Winter and Delerium took the Frost riffs, but not Frost's interest in European Romanticism (interestingly enough).

This distinction gets a little bit hazy when we start factoring bands like Disembowelment (grindcore influence) and Unholy (weird hypnotic vibe) into it, but I think it works on a broader level.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1793
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:38 pm 
 

mirons wrote:
Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
colin040 wrote:
Grindmaster Dead - Stronger than Love

Don't let the silly album title turn you off. This is raw and crude doom/death metal that doesn't forget about the DOOM! Has some nods to early Black Sabbath and mixes them up with some aggressive, well-timed death metal here and there.


Wow. Just checked this out. I think I'd heard them before. Really ancient sounding but with killer riffs. I can't believe these are the guys that became Skyforger, a band I really don't care for.

The flute is a nice touch. I'm reminded a bit of Paramaecium who also had flute on Exhumed of the Earth.


Check out Druun, who are influenced a lot by Grindmaster Dead. They even have the same drummer and do a cover of GD. That said, there is overall more of the folk influence, tempos lean more towards funeral doom, and the riffs don't sound quite as crushing and raw.

Spoiler: show


That was brilliant. I sincerely enjoyed that. The flute sounds good in a Doom/Death context. Thanks mirons.

Zelkiiro wrote:
I've never been big on Paradise Lost, Katatonia, or Novembers Doom, really.

But My Dying Bride, Draconian, and (early) Theatre of Tragedy?

*chef's kiss*

That's my shit, right there.

"Turn Loose the Swans" and "The Angel and the Dark River," specifically. My Dying Bride were a goddamn revelation.


Bride figured out that violin could sound stunning over crushing riffs and got on that before all these bands. Or at least made it stand out more (before someone corrects me with research I've not done about who did it first).

Violin sounds great in Doom and MDB do well with orchestral material. I don't care who you are but "A Sea To Suffer In" is a killer arrangement. Draconian are great at the somber classical-tinged thing too. I could never get into Symphonic Black but symphonic doom/death is a thing I can get behind.
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....my attention span is not your guinea pig. If even one of your songs exceeds 10 minutes, you're either a fucking genius or you need to self-edit that shit.

Empyreal wrote:
Seems like a pretty reductive way to see art.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2921
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:18 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
I do think that the doom/death metal tag is helpful, but you'll have to admit that it's somewhat misleading at times. Bands like Divine Eve and Cianide fall under this category just fine, but even when you'd mention Paradise Lost, the term might be used better as a tool that sums up a certain collection of ideas, instead of using it as a downright accurate term. Lost Paradise falls into the doom/death metal camp to me just fine. But Gothic might be off better viewed from a gothic/doom perspective than a doom/death metal perspective; minus ''Dead Emotion'' it's not much of a heavy album and with plenty of palm-muted picked power chords driving the album forward on a relatively brisk pace, it's already a lot different from the debut. Of course, you could also debate whether Shades of God and Medusa would actually fall under the doom/death category...we don't use the term ''doom metal with harsh vocals'', but it's clear that there's no death metal riffs on those albums either. Not to mention that even the bands with a few death metal riffs might not be proper doom/death metal either...but then again, we don't call the majority of Greek black metal black/heavy either, right?


Well, there's always a spectrum, and PL has had a long enough career to explore a lot of different points along it. It's interesting that we have tension on both ends, where some probably would not count bands like Autopsy and Asphyx as doom/death, just DM with some occasional slower, doomier parts. Same with early Amorphis in a more melodic direction. And then the bands that would just be doom were it not for some growls. It's a big tent though.

And then we have people mentioning Celtic Frost and Triptykon. I'm not sure much of anything he's done is quite "death". He's too unique and influential on all of the extreme subgenres, but I have a hard calling his work fully a part of them. But if want to go more loosely Monotheist and Melana Chasmata would probably be somewhere around 3-6 in my list.

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Corpsey the Clown
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Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:38 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 am 
 

I'm a fan of many death bands that incorporate doom elements. Doom bands with death vocals don't give me the same thrill, but Arcane Rain Fell by Draconian is my favorite of those by a wide margin. As powerful and passionate as anything I've heard, and it's aged like wine.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8624
Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:45 am 
 

For me, probably the best record of this style is Tiamat's The Astral Sleep. Pure magic. It's quite odd for a death/doom record as it's often quite uptempo and has a fair few riffs that could qualify as thrashy. Again, the mood fits this genre, though, and the whole thing is beautiful, haunting, varied and just wonderful.
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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:25 pm 
 

Rarely mentioned:

Mythological Cold Towers - Sphere of Nebaddon: The Dawn of a Dying Tyffereth

Brazilian doom/death from 1996. A mix of early peaceville 3 and almost just as good.
Too bad their other albums are more all over the place genre-wise.

Pentacrostic – The Pain Tears - is another one from Brazil. We're in the area of Winter and the old Dutch scene.

Paramæcium – Exhumed Of The Earth - just check out the 17 minutes opener!

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1793
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:27 pm 
 

Helvede wrote:
Rarely mentioned:

Mythological Cold Towers - Sphere of Nebaddon: The Dawn of a Dying Tyffereth

Brazilian doom/death from 1996. A mix of early peaceville 3 and almost just as good.
Too bad their other albums are more all over the place genre-wise.

Pentacrostic – The Pain Tears - is another one from Brazil. We're in the area of Winter and the old Dutch scene.

Paramæcium – Exhumed Of The Earth - just check out the 17 minutes opener!


I really need to stop giving Mythological Cold Towers the slip and just dive right in. I love the Pentacrostic description and I'm gonna check them out.

Paramæcium - I've heard the entire discog but that first album (and first song) is most special.

I was also wondering earlier if anyone knows the connection between Morgion to Dusk. Or if there's any at all to begin with. Dusk released "...Majestic Thou in Ruin" in 1995 and two years later Morgion puts out "Among Majestic Ruin". Besides the weird title similarity, both albums are just under 35 minutes in length - not exactly the standard length for Doom/Death albums. "Turn Loose the Swans" is almost an hour, for example.
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AxeCapitol
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm 
 

I think early Autopsy as well as Cathedral’s Forest of Equilibrium should both be considered death - doom. Or doom - death. Whatever.

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Gravetemplar
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:57 pm 
 

I really want to like that Disembowelment album everyone loves but I can't get over those ultraloud plastic drums. They really kill the atmosphere imho.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:03 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
I think early Autopsy as well as Cathedral’s Forest of Equilibrium should both be considered death - doom. Or doom - death. Whatever.


I dunno about Cathedral. They always seemed sorta bigger than Doom/Death to me and just a Doom band in general. I always think of those earlier things they did (love the In Memoriam demo with that interesting Pentagram cover) as I do a band like Dream Death (like on Journey into Mystery) where they just take elements of doom and death metal and weave them into a style that was based on straight up heavy metal, to begin with.

Gravetemplar wrote:
I really want to like that Disembowelment album everyone loves but I can't get over those ultraloud plastic drums. They really kill the atmosphere imho.


Takes some getting used to. The vocals are really good and the riffs really inventive but the drumming takes away the mysterious vibe. It's a thrash type of tone to the drums almost.
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....my attention span is not your guinea pig. If even one of your songs exceeds 10 minutes, you're either a fucking genius or you need to self-edit that shit.

Empyreal wrote:
Seems like a pretty reductive way to see art.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:18 pm 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
I think early Autopsy as well as Cathedral’s Forest of Equilibrium should both be considered death - doom. Or doom - death. Whatever.


I dunno about Cathedral. They always seemed sorta bigger than Doom/Death to me and just a Doom band in general. I always think of those earlier things they did (love the In Memoriam demo with that interesting Pentagram cover) as I do a band like Dream Death (like on Journey into Mystery) where they just take elements of doom and death metal and weave them into a style that was based on straight up heavy metal, to begin with.


Yeah, I guess that first Cathedral album kind of counts, but as a band I don't recall them doing much with it again, though I can't say I'm super familiar with their later discography. They almost get the reputation just because Dorrian was also in Napalm Death.

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Rodman
Metalhead

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Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:51 pm 
 

Cathedral were doom, then went on to dabble in Fu Manchu-esque stoner rock. They were never death/doom.
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