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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:39 pm 
 

At this point, I think my biggest problem with metalcore vocals may not be the singers' actual voices but rather how their lines tend to be constructed. Every time I listen to a core band, the songs feel so overstuffed with vocal lines and I find myself wishing the singer would just shut the fuck up so the structure could actually breathe for more than five seconds. I understand it's a more vocally-oriented genre and a lot of hardcore-derived genres are like that in general, but it makes for exhausting listens when so little of it is actually catchy.
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SladeCraven
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm
Posts: 564
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:08 am 
 

Gas_Snake wrote:
Vadara wrote:

Lmao...

Metalcore is a very vocals-driven genre in comparison to metal proper and I'd say that on average metalcore vocalists are very skilled. I can name very little metalcore I've heard with bad vocalists because the genre basically requires good vocalists due to the underlying instrumentals taking a backseat in most variants of it besides wanky djent/technical kinds like Periphery and ERRA (who have amazing vocalists as well too). Vocals like half the reason I prefer the genre.

And "monotone"? Metalcore vocals are almost always emotional and varied in comparison to many metal vocalists who intentionally stick to a very rigid style (Power metal vocalists for instance are "emotional" in the sense that they are melodramatic but it's a thespian kind of emotion, same goes for trad metal wailing. They're enjoyable techniques, but incredibly rigid).

Naming Heafy of all people as a good vocalist is throwing me for a goddamn loop. He's incredibly monotonous and frankly sounds like he should be in a thrash band with his one-note shout. Strid is also one-note. I could name like fifty bands with singers better than either of those two lmao


I am aware that your bias towards -core genres is not something often seen here, but most of what you consider to be bad in metal vocals is exactly what I think of when I hear almost anything in the style. The melodrama's there, the rigidity's there (albeit mostly in a structural sense), the one-note bullshit is... admittedly not quite what I meant, it's more that those vocalists superimpose themselves on top of the music so much that I get annoyed because it drowns out the instruments and forces me to contend with their umpteenth attempt at a breakup song or rebellion anthem or whatever else.

Regarding the examples I picked: I may also just be projecting my thoughts on other aspects of the music onto the vocals, but I picked those two primarily for the clean vocals and the fact that they're at least trying to do something that works. Heafy's there because Trivium's really, REALLY good at smothering you with big catchy hooks, and he lets the music breathe enough to let you focus on that, Strid's there because there's something about his vocals (cleans especially) that's much more sincere than what the other guys are doing. I'm not sure if I can accurately describe what I mean, but there's something about his tone and lyrics that just WORKS that I can't find anywhere else.



What do you like in metalcore vocals? Can you show me an example of what you're looking for?


I listened to a fair amount of Trivium's first two albums as a teenager and I never minded Matt as a vocalist, but I wasn't over the moon for them. I thought he managed to build really nice choruses, though. To be honest, when they went back and re-recorded vocals for Like Light to the Flies, I was pretty irritated. It was fine the way it was and didn't need to be "thrashed up" or whatever it was Matt was going for. Just own your original intention.

But if we're talking stand out metalcore vocalists in the mainstream arena, Jessie on Alive or Just Breathing has really solid vocals, in my opinion. Being able to alternate between that level of intense gutterals/shrieking into clean singing (well) is not easy. I've always had a decent amount of respect for metalcore vocalists being able to accomplish that. I think Howard has much better high shrieks, but Jessie has a more powerful sound to me. I haven't kept up with DevilDriver since their first couple of albums, but I think Dez is a really solid vocalist for the style they're doing as well. Something about the way he forms his words during the harsh parts (even in Coal Chamber) has always worked for me.

Someone above mentioned that metalcore tends to be inundated with vocal parts thereby not allowing the arrangement to breathe, and I can definitely understand that argument. Although I've often wondered what vocalists in bands that have really long musical pieces without vocal parts do during those times when performing live, haha. I'm just imagining myself thinking, "What do I do with my hands..."
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 2945
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:40 am 
 

SladeCraven wrote:
Although I've often wondered what vocalists in bands that have really long musical pieces without vocal parts do during those times when performing live, haha. I'm just imagining myself thinking, "What do I do with my hands..."


Well, Dream Theater is kind of the ultimate example of that. James LaBrie typically just leaves the stage during instrumentals or extended parts. But I guess there's probably some kind of threshold where it'd be a bit awkward to just keep standing around 'til your part comes back in, and yet maybe not quite long enough to completely disappear for awhile.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:02 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
This is gonna ruffle some (or a lot) of feathers here but I've sampled DM and I can safely that no-name deathcore vocalists from bands with like 500 listeners on spotify blow most DM vocalists out of the water.


Nah it doesn't ruffle my feathers when people are wrong. You're wrong though. In can safely name ten death metal vocalists who kick the ass of all, even the most succesful, deathcore vocalists. The very monotone vocals you describe barely even exist in death metal, at least not in relevant bands. Bands like Benighted, Blood Red Throne or Origin all have range, although death metal often doesn't call for extreme variations in vocals throughout one track. So that might be what you're describing? I don't know. But it suits the genre. Vocals jumping all over the place in death metal often don't fit with the general feeling of the songs. But the ones I listed all have deep guttural growls, more shouted growls and high pitched screams here and there.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 240
Location: Directly behind you
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:27 am 
 

Generally, vocals don't matter much to me because I'm usually listening back to the guitars. Unless it's metalcore or deathcore, in which case the vocals can ruin everything for me.

To summarize my thoughts on metalcore/deathcore, a lot of metalcore vocals I've heard tend to be weak and obnoxious. I especially hate when they do that weird cadence thing, alternating shitty screams and their regular voice. I can try to find an example if y'all don't know what I'm talking for. As for deathcore, the opposite is true; much the vocals are just too much, to the point where it gets boring. Everyone sounds the same with their low and densely layered screams, and since the guitars usually aren't doing much besides open chugging, there isn't anything interesting for me to focus on.

Also, what the hell is this opening vocal line? I don't know how you can put that in a song and say "yeah, this sounds good. Let's keep that."

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66samhain
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:23 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:13 am 
 

Yes, big time. That's why I never got into DSBM in the first place, even though I may like the other instruments. I just can't stand most of the vocals save for a few bands.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:44 pm 
 

The_Grindcrusher wrote:
SladeCraven wrote:
Well, at least I'm not alone for the most part. ;)

Another example that comes to mind is Burzum. For the exception of Filosofem I can't stand Varg as a vocalist, and even then his vocals are layered with distortion, so almost anyone could have made them sound halfway decent. They fit well with the atmosphere of the album and add to the experience versus being distracting, at least. But his vocals on other Burzum albums have always struck me as more amusing, than anything. "This is war, huh? WOW!" and then his voice literally cracks when he tries to get through that first verse. So, so bad.

Not that I'm overly trying to get into Burzum or anything, but when I was exploring black metal before I was really familiar with it, I remember hearing Burzum and being turned off immediately until I heard Dunkelheit from Filosofem.


I remember hearing Burzum for the first time after hearing about all of Varg's murdering racism stuff, and I when I first heard his vocals I remember thinking: "This guy burnt down 3 churches?"


Funny, because I find his vocals and screams to be absolutely haunting and despair driven and to me he absolutely sounds like someone with a shitload of emotion behind them and who I could imagine doing something like that.

That's entirely aside from the fact that he's a racist POS and i only listen to his music if ripped off of youtube, but that's neither here nor there...

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:46 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
At this point, I think my biggest problem with metalcore vocals may not be the singers' actual voices but rather how their lines tend to be constructed. Every time I listen to a core band, the songs feel so overstuffed with vocal lines and I find myself wishing the singer would just shut the fuck up so the structure could actually breathe for more than five seconds. I understand it's a more vocally-oriented genre and a lot of hardcore-derived genres are like that in general, but it makes for exhausting listens when so little of it is actually catchy.


I don't listen to much metalcore, but from what I've heard I agree with this completely.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:48 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Vadara wrote:
This is gonna ruffle some (or a lot) of feathers here but I've sampled DM and I can safely that no-name deathcore vocalists from bands with like 500 listeners on spotify blow most DM vocalists out of the water.


Nah it doesn't ruffle my feathers when people are wrong. You're wrong though. In can safely name ten death metal vocalists who kick the ass of all, even the most succesful, deathcore vocalists. The very monotone vocals you describe barely even exist in death metal, at least not in relevant bands. Bands like Benighted, Blood Red Throne or Origin all have range, although death metal often doesn't call for extreme variations in vocals throughout one track. So that might be what you're describing? I don't know. But it suits the genre. Vocals jumping all over the place in death metal often don't fit with the general feeling of the songs. But the ones I listed all have deep guttural growls, more shouted growls and high pitched screams here and there.


I know right? He didn't even listen to the examples I posted.

Seems like he just wants to continue to believe that all death metal vocalists suck without giving more a chance.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1176
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:51 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
Generally, vocals don't matter much to me because I'm usually listening back to the guitars. Unless it's metalcore or deathcore, in which case the vocals can ruin everything for me.

To summarize my thoughts on metalcore/deathcore, a lot of metalcore vocals I've heard tend to be weak and obnoxious. I especially hate when they do that weird cadence thing, alternating shitty screams and their regular voice. I can try to find an example if y'all don't know what I'm talking for. As for deathcore, the opposite is true; much the vocals are just too much, to the point where it gets boring. Everyone sounds the same with their low and densely layered screams, and since the guitars usually aren't doing much besides open chugging, there isn't anything interesting for me to focus on.

Also, what the hell is this opening vocal line? I don't know how you can put that in a song and say "yeah, this sounds good. Let's keep that."


Oh god...the second I heard those vocals kicked in I wanted to smash myself in the face with a hammer. I've heard a little bit of decent deathcore out there, with Rings of Saturn being the only band of the style i know that I actually really like, but if it sounds even REMOTELY like this then NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 393
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:53 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
[

I know right? He didn't even listen to the examples I posted.

Seems like he just wants to continue to believe that all death metal vocalists suck without giving more a chance.


Bro I have a life outside of this forum which I check once or twice a day since it's relatively slow moving. I draw and write stories/novels and play games and shit. Sorry my man. I listened to them, my thoughts:

Necrophagia: I can respect this guy's technique--he does the whole "horror movie" thing a lot better than most DM vocalists, which is honestly pretty weird given that horror movies and shit are a major thematic influence on the genre, especially early on, and I think a lot of DM like Cannibal Corpse really doesn't sound that horror movie-ish despite that--though I think the tone is a bit cheesy and goofy and almost doesn't fit the self-serious instrumentals, as well the fact that he doesn't really try to create any catchy rhythm, he just...says his lines over the music with little attempt to actually be musical with it.

Anaal Nathrakh: I've liked this band's vocals. He sounds good because he's one of the few metal proper vocalists that has a very deathcore style to his vocals with his mixture of highs and lows, though his highs sound...insane and I'm not sure what to think about them. Those cleans do not fit the music slightly holy shit though what are these power metal vocals doing in the middle of this song

Black Curse: Once again this has the Necrophagia problem where the vocalist is just speaking over the instrumentals and not actually trying to do a rhythm or any kind of catchy stuff. This is what I mean when I say metal is extremely instrument-driven--the vocals in this and a lot of DM sound as if they were recorded after the actual song was made and then just laid on top. His actual vocals are fine enough, I like the harsh dryness of his lows, though I think a more disgusting technique would fit with his insane psychotic highs.

The Berzerker: Ignoring that I can barely hear him half the time, these are fine enough, but there's a particular emotion-less cadence to his vocals that I'm not caring for. I appreciate at how he's actually trying to do more musical stuff with his vocals like following the instruments and actually using rhythms, but I'm just not one for this very rough style of technique. Also the drums in this song are driving my ears insane, someone please stop that slam-esque DONK every single time the drummer does a blast OH MY GOD

Dragged Into Sunlight: This song has some sick riffs Holy shit this song fucking whips outside of the vocals. Anyway this also has very rough-sounding vocals and sounds like the vocals were overlaid to music that was already recorded. I cannot stress enough how much this kinda inherently annoys me--it sounds like I'm listening to this honestly pretty badass instrumental song that has vocals just kinda pasted on top with little attempt to make them catchy or neat. Every time the vocalist is speaking I'm like can someone get this dude freestyling off the mic so I can enjoy the riffs? But seriously the underlying instrumentals are incredible.

Ulcerate: These vocals once again have a very rough/un-edited feel to them and I just find that kind of harshness kinda off-putting. I am well aware like most -core bands edit their vocals and to be honest, I am fine with that because this kind of raw "realness" does not do much for me.

I was gonna mention this in the Ulcerate section, but another thing I am noticing in like all of these songs is that the vocalist is damn near completely random as to WHEN they come in. They just appear for like 20 seconds and then disappear and then suddenly appear again. The riffs don't build up to a vocal section the way -core songs do, they just do their shit in the background and then the vocalist comes in and leaves. It's incredibly jarring as someone used to music where the instrumentals clearly are built around letting the vocalist breathe and do their stuff. When MutantClannfear said in his review of Alice Through the Windshield Glass's Keep Your Eyes On The Road "... and while deathcore is a genre that would feel pretty awkward without vocals, I almost want to say that nothing of significance would be lost if Keep Your Eyes on the Road was an instrumental endeavor" I remember thinking "huh, that's a weird sentiment" but I actually kinda get it now. -core bands, even the most technically proficient and progressive ones, generally build their songs to complement their vocals, whereas metal bands often sound as if they record the instruments first and then the vocalist just does some shit over the instrumental version without much rhyme or reason and they ship it.

That isn't LITERALLY how metal songs are written, I know; part of the inherent appeal of the genre is that it sheds a need to adhere to a more "standard" song structure, and can do damn near whatever, but I guess I'm just not really all about that life. I love me technical and chaotic music (the ERRA song linked down here is an example of that), but I still like it to feel like there's SOME kind of inherent sense to it, I guess? Outside of genres where the emphasis (or at least greater emphasis) is on vocals such as power or trad this doesn't happen as much, since they are stylistically much closer to rock and blues.

Origin: This guy's technique sounds fine enough, and he actually is pretty damn catchy (like roughly (0:30-1:00), the weird vocals behind him sound really goddamn weird though. This, funnily enough, mostly avoids the thing I just ranted about for a long-ass paragraph, it feels like he's actually integrated into the music.

Gas_Snake wrote:

What do you like in metalcore vocals? Can you show me an example of what you're looking for?


I like metalcore vocals for two main things:

Firstly, the harsh vocals tend to be a much more emotional kind of hardcore-influenced shout, but mixed with the harsher grittiness that metal brought to the music table. They also, as I have stated above, tend to build their songs around the vocals and thus they feel far more integrated into the music.

Secondly, the cleans. I can't really say it any other: I, indeed, unironically enjoy extremely whiny emo cleans. They are major reason I like this genre. Like, I adore the vocals in these songs:

In Fear and Faith -- Silent Drum (note how at 1:10 in the chorus the harsh vocalist follows the instruments in the background--this is something metal harsh vocalists rarely do)

If I Were You - The Choice (the incredibly soft and emotional I'm drifting away, away, away..I'm lost in the noise, I'm lost in the...your touch...your touch...is just a memory... at 2:25...perfection; the harsh vocalist's weirdly low and gurgly technique for the genre is also a particular favorite of mine)

Myka, Relocate - Doublespeak (the part in the chorus where the clean vocalist goes an octave clearly higher than he should at 0:50-57 with "I CAN'T MOVE ON IT'S JUST NOT WORTH/THE DREAM WE HAD IS JUST SO PERFECT" is unironically my favorite part of this song. Damn his voice is so goddamn hot lmao *gay swoons*)


I'm intentionally picking godawful popcore with the most stereotypical emo whiny bitchy boy vox because I'm trying to emphasize that the things metalheads actively despise about metalcore are the things that I actually love about it. These three songs absolutely embody the kind of poppy post-hardcore-leaning metalcore that metalheads absolutely hate above all. I unironically love this shit and my main issue with the metalcore scene right now is that there isn't MORE of this shit in modern bands. Where are my hot emo boys goddammit.

Other truly comical garbage I love unironically with all my heart: Outline in Color - My Other Car is a Time Machine II, A Scent Like Wolves - Medicate the Past, Polaris

I will guarantee you will hate all of this if you torture your ears with it for the exact reasons I absolutely adore it.

But, if you want examples of mxc vocalists that aren't absurdly whiny and which I still think are good (you'll probably still not like them anyway lmao):

Currents - Forget Me (Currents' vocalist is very good at always sounding raw and emotional)

The Oklahoma Kid - Doppelganger (the vocalists of this band both sound completely insane and unhinged in a human way)

Now and On Earth - Intoxicated (these dudes basically do the poppy post-hardcore-leaning style of metalcore but with more toned-down vocals, especially in their clean vocals)

Ice Nine Kills - Merry Axe-Mas (Remember how I said that DM honestly doesn't sound that horror movie? I think INK's Spencer Charnas does a better job at that frankly--his harsh vocals are always completely insane and unhinged, but still human, and his clean vocals and his lyrics in general help bring in the inherent extremely silly goofiness that these slasher movies almost always had; like, Cannibal Corpse's lyrics are a gory representation of what actually happens in these horror movies, but I think stuff like "You will believe in me, slaughtered under the tree/Cause I won't leave a witness/So much for a Merry Christmas!/Now Santa's claws are out/The sinners scream and shout/Make sure the noose was yule-tide-tight/SO MUCH FOR A SILENT NIGHT" honestly does the incredibly corny silliness of 80's slasher films better than completely self-serious gore lyrics)

ERRA -Remnant (my favorite band of all time, frankly. ERRA's vocalists are both incredibly talented, with Jesse Cash's cleans (especially considering that he is also the lead guitarist and thus doing all that amazing shit in the background) and JT Cavey's emotional harsh vocals; combined with their incredibly technical instrumentals, progressive song structures, and incredibly talented songwriting, their songs are almost all incredible in my eyes)

Holy shit this post is fucking long lmao I could post like fifty more songs but I'll spare your ears (I doubt you'll even listen to all of these and if you do, I am so sorry, holy shit, my condolences)

The thesis statement of this long as fuck post: What I can appreciate about metal is the instrumentals, and I often feel like the vocalists in extreme metal don't feel like they are really meshing with their instrumentals underneath them. Something like trad metal, on the other hand, generally tends to have the vocalists feel more integrated into the song, because it was far more heavily influenced by rock, perhaps? I also just don't particularly like the rawness of most death metal vocals, I guess.

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Metal_On_The_Ascendant
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:38 am
Posts: 1794
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:06 am 
 

^ Hey, more power to you. You are genuine with your love for -core, it's such a rare thing to see on here.

Vadara wrote:
Where are my hot emo boys goddammit.

Come out wherever you are
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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:50 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
[

I know right? He didn't even listen to the examples I posted.

Seems like he just wants to continue to believe that all death metal vocalists suck without giving more a chance.


Bro I have a life outside of this forum which I check once or twice a day since it's relatively slow moving. I draw and write stories/novels and play games and shit. Sorry my man. I listened to them, my thoughts:

Necrophagia: I can respect this guy's technique--he does the whole "horror movie" thing a lot better than most DM vocalists, which is honestly pretty weird given that horror movies and shit are a major thematic influence on the genre, especially early on, and I think a lot of DM like Cannibal Corpse really doesn't sound that horror movie-ish despite that--though I think the tone is a bit cheesy and goofy and almost doesn't fit the self-serious instrumentals, as well the fact that he doesn't really try to create any catchy rhythm, he just...says his lines over the music with little attempt to actually be musical with it.

Anaal Nathrakh: I've liked this band's vocals. He sounds good because he's one of the few metal proper vocalists that has a very deathcore style to his vocals with his mixture of highs and lows, though his highs sound...insane and I'm not sure what to think about them. Those cleans do not fit the music slightly holy shit though what are these power metal vocals doing in the middle of this song

Black Curse: Once again this has the Necrophagia problem where the vocalist is just speaking over the instrumentals and not actually trying to do a rhythm or any kind of catchy stuff. This is what I mean when I say metal is extremely instrument-driven--the vocals in this and a lot of DM sound as if they were recorded after the actual song was made and then just laid on top. His actual vocals are fine enough, I like the harsh dryness of his lows, though I think a more disgusting technique would fit with his insane psychotic highs.

The Berzerker: Ignoring that I can barely hear him half the time, these are fine enough, but there's a particular emotion-less cadence to his vocals that I'm not caring for. I appreciate at how he's actually trying to do more musical stuff with his vocals like following the instruments and actually using rhythms, but I'm just not one for this very rough style of technique. Also the drums in this song are driving my ears insane, someone please stop that slam-esque DONK every single time the drummer does a blast OH MY GOD

Dragged Into Sunlight: This song has some sick riffs Holy shit this song fucking whips outside of the vocals. Anyway this also has very rough-sounding vocals and sounds like the vocals were overlaid to music that was already recorded. I cannot stress enough how much this kinda inherently annoys me--it sounds like I'm listening to this honestly pretty badass instrumental song that has vocals just kinda pasted on top with little attempt to make them catchy or neat. Every time the vocalist is speaking I'm like can someone get this dude freestyling off the mic so I can enjoy the riffs? But seriously the underlying instrumentals are incredible.

Ulcerate: These vocals once again have a very rough/un-edited feel to them and I just find that kind of harshness kinda off-putting. I am well aware like most -core bands edit their vocals and to be honest, I am fine with that because this kind of raw "realness" does not do much for me.

I was gonna mention this in the Ulcerate section, but another thing I am noticing in like all of these songs is that the vocalist is damn near completely random as to WHEN they come in. They just appear for like 20 seconds and then disappear and then suddenly appear again. The riffs don't build up to a vocal section the way -core songs do, they just do their shit in the background and then the vocalist comes in and leaves. It's incredibly jarring as someone used to music where the instrumentals clearly are built around letting the vocalist breathe and do their stuff. When MutantClannfear said in his review of Alice Through the Windshield Glass's Keep Your Eyes On The Road "... and while deathcore is a genre that would feel pretty awkward without vocals, I almost want to say that nothing of significance would be lost if Keep Your Eyes on the Road was an instrumental endeavor" I remember thinking "huh, that's a weird sentiment" but I actually kinda get it now. -core bands, even the most technically proficient and progressive ones, generally build their songs to complement their vocals, whereas metal bands often sound as if they record the instruments first and then the vocalist just does some shit over the instrumental version without much rhyme or reason and they ship it.

That isn't LITERALLY how metal songs are written, I know; part of the inherent appeal of the genre is that it sheds a need to adhere to a more "standard" song structure, and can do damn near whatever, but I guess I'm just not really all about that life. I love me technical and chaotic music (the ERRA song linked down here is an example of that), but I still like it to feel like there's SOME kind of inherent sense to it, I guess? Outside of genres where the emphasis (or at least greater emphasis) is on vocals such as power or trad this doesn't happen as much, since they are stylistically much closer to rock and blues.

Origin: This guy's technique sounds fine enough, and he actually is pretty damn catchy (like roughly (0:30-1:00), the weird vocals behind him sound really goddamn weird though. This, funnily enough, mostly avoids the thing I just ranted about for a long-ass paragraph, it feels like he's actually integrated into the music.

Gas_Snake wrote:

What do you like in metalcore vocals? Can you show me an example of what you're looking for?


I like metalcore vocals for two main things:

Firstly, the harsh vocals tend to be a much more emotional kind of hardcore-influenced shout, but mixed with the harsher grittiness that metal brought to the music table. They also, as I have stated above, tend to build their songs around the vocals and thus they feel far more integrated into the music.

Secondly, the cleans. I can't really say it any other: I, indeed, unironically enjoy extremely whiny emo cleans. They are major reason I like this genre. Like, I adore the vocals in these songs:

In Fear and Faith -- Silent Drum (note how at 1:10 in the chorus the harsh vocalist follows the instruments in the background--this is something metal harsh vocalists rarely do)

If I Were You - The Choice (the incredibly soft and emotional I'm drifting away, away, away..I'm lost in the noise, I'm lost in the...your touch...your touch...is just a memory... at 2:25...perfection; the harsh vocalist's weirdly low and gurgly technique for the genre is also a particular favorite of mine)

Myka, Relocate - Doublespeak (the part in the chorus where the clean vocalist goes an octave clearly higher than he should at 0:50-57 with "I CAN'T MOVE ON IT'S JUST NOT WORTH/THE DREAM WE HAD IS JUST SO PERFECT" is unironically my favorite part of this song. Damn his voice is so goddamn hot lmao *gay swoons*)


I'm intentionally picking godawful popcore with the most stereotypical emo whiny bitchy boy vox because I'm trying to emphasize that the things metalheads actively despise about metalcore are the things that I actually love about it. These three songs absolutely embody the kind of poppy post-hardcore-leaning metalcore that metalheads absolutely hate above all. I unironically love this shit and my main issue with the metalcore scene right now is that there isn't MORE of this shit in modern bands. Where are my hot emo boys goddammit.

Other truly comical garbage I love unironically with all my heart: Outline in Color - My Other Car is a Time Machine II, A Scent Like Wolves - Medicate the Past, Polaris

I will guarantee you will hate all of this if you torture your ears with it for the exact reasons I absolutely adore it.

But, if you want examples of mxc vocalists that aren't absurdly whiny and which I still think are good (you'll probably still not like them anyway lmao):

Currents - Forget Me (Currents' vocalist is very good at always sounding raw and emotional)

The Oklahoma Kid - Doppelganger (the vocalists of this band both sound completely insane and unhinged in a human way)

Now and On Earth - Intoxicated (these dudes basically do the poppy post-hardcore-leaning style of metalcore but with more toned-down vocals, especially in their clean vocals)

Ice Nine Kills - Merry Axe-Mas (Remember how I said that DM honestly doesn't sound that horror movie? I think INK's Spencer Charnas does a better job at that frankly--his harsh vocals are always completely insane and unhinged, but still human, and his clean vocals and his lyrics in general help bring in the inherent extremely silly goofiness that these slasher movies almost always had; like, Cannibal Corpse's lyrics are a gory representation of what actually happens in these horror movies, but I think stuff like "You will believe in me, slaughtered under the tree/Cause I won't leave a witness/So much for a Merry Christmas!/Now Santa's claws are out/The sinners scream and shout/Make sure the noose was yule-tide-tight/SO MUCH FOR A SILENT NIGHT" honestly does the incredibly corny silliness of 80's slasher films better than completely self-serious gore lyrics)

ERRA -Remnant (my favorite band of all time, frankly. ERRA's vocalists are both incredibly talented, with Jesse Cash's cleans (especially considering that he is also the lead guitarist and thus doing all that amazing shit in the background) and JT Cavey's emotional harsh vocals; combined with their incredibly technical instrumentals, progressive song structures, and incredibly talented songwriting, their songs are almost all incredible in my eyes)

Holy shit this post is fucking long lmao I could post like fifty more songs but I'll spare your ears (I doubt you'll even listen to all of these and if you do, I am so sorry, holy shit, my condolences)

The thesis statement of this long as fuck post: What I can appreciate about metal is the instrumentals, and I often feel like the vocalists in extreme metal don't feel like they are really meshing with their instrumentals underneath them. Something like trad metal, on the other hand, generally tends to have the vocalists feel more integrated into the song, because it was far more heavily influenced by rock, perhaps? I also just don't particularly like the rawness of most death metal vocals, I guess.



Well, that's cool that you were actually able to appreciate and like some of the vocals and bands I linked.

Yes, IMO you have it correctly, that while there are in fact good death metal and extreme metal vocalists, extreme metal doesn't make vocals the focal point like deathcore and metalcore do, and that's just fine with me.

For me, it's necessary that I like the vocals to an extent, but they aren't one of the most important instruments to me, along with bass, while guitar and drums are more what I care about, especially drums, but there needs to be complete package.

Metal, especially extreme and death metal, just has a different aesthetic to deathcore, but that being said, I haven't really honestly listened to that much deathcore or metalcore. What little i have heard I don't usually find myself that impressed with, but there are exceptions, and the one band you linked earlier on in the thread was decent (along with bands like Rings of Saturn who are good), so perhaps there's other deathcore out there that I'd like.

But as for the bands you linked, I listened to all of them very briefly, just bits and pieces, some more than others, but for the most part the vocals just turned me off, probably for the same reason you like it.

i really just can't do the "sappy sweet" style of emo-vocals these guys do, and when they get heavy again it somehow makes the heaviness seem less sincere to me. Some of them have quality harsh vocals, but others i like less, and also, the lyrics on some of the tracks where they showed them on the screen, like the Mkya,Relocate song, were just too emotion-laden in a "my girl just broke up with me" type of thing lol...just not my style. The one about someone being murdered on Christmas, that one i really didn't see as brutal but actually kind of annoying lol, though i could hear the singer's talent for sure, still, not something I'd choose to listen to, as far as being compared to Cannibal Corpse, CC is just entirely different. It's not about being more or less like a horror movie, Cannibal Corpse just play death metal with entirely different riffing, obviously entirely different vocals which I find just fine the way they are without trying to be over the top or melodic. If CC ever DID try to do melodic or clean vocals at any point it would never EVER work and be terrible.

The few bands I like that DO do that kind of thing are, as mentioned, Soilwork, especially on Natural Born Chaos, and I can tolerate some Scar Symmetry from time to time, but much less than I used to be able to.

I just have a hard time with a singer going from trying to sound all sweet one second and brutal the next. I can objectively hear that some of these vocalists are talented as far as their vocals go, but something about their switching back and forth like that, it just puts me off. I guess that's just one of the reasons why many metalheads aren't as into deathcore and deathcore fans don't like extreme metal as much. Out of all of them though, the one that sounded ok to me was the first one, In Fear and Faith, though it wouldn't be my style to choose to listen to, objectively I can tell why someone would like it.

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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:11 pm 
 

Vadara, what about Christian Älvestam? He's always struck me as too "-core-ish" and his cleans are "boy band" cleans most of the time... yet other metalheads adore his work :)))

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:10 pm 
 

As the resident Alvestam fanboy here, I don't really see the -core in his vocals, and the cleans to me are more prog/power metal, but Vadara should definitely give him a shot, because he has the mixture of many different inflections of vocals and massive layering going on, especially in the first three Scar Symmetry and all of Solution .45's albums.

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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:15 pm 
 

^Well maybe, I know there are bands marketed as "power metal" that have those pop vocals too, and maybe even prog bands, but to me they are pop vocals :)) Not to detract from his technique or anything; he can sing. But the style drives me up the wall.

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Vadara
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:29 pm 
 

Assuming I picked the right band (Scar Symmetry), I just gave them a listen and quite like them! His harsh vocals are decent and his cleans are quite nice. However he absolutely is using a technique much more in line with traditional metal singing (the stuff you'd hear in trad or power or whatever) with a "manlier" timber.

ABSURDLY LONG TANGENT THAT DOESN'T REALLY HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE THREAD TOPIC SORRY I JUST KINDA STARTED RAMBLING I GUESS
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Quote:
Metal, especially extreme and death metal, just has a different aesthetic to deathcore, but that being said, I haven't really honestly listened to that much deathcore or metalcore. What little i have heard I don't usually find myself that impressed with, but there are exceptions, and the one band you linked earlier on in the thread was decent (along with bands like Rings of Saturn who are good), so perhaps there's other deathcore out there that I'd like.


Frankly I don't think you would, and I don't mean this as an insult, but the two genres are just strikingly different despite surface similarities. Every single deathcore band has a certain tone and feeling to it that death metal does not, and vice versa--I've never heard deathcore quite as chaotically violent and dark as, say, that Dragged Into Sunlight song, or even, like, Cannibal Corpse and Suffocation. If those aspects of death metal are your main appeal then the genre will never really quite catch you.

Metal has a certain sense of theatrics to it. There's a reason power metal exists--metal is already kinda inherently melodramatic and over-the-top, whereas -core trends far closer to being a bit more down-to-earth. Fantasy themes are incredibly common in metal--in metalcore they are so rare I know a band that literally markets itself on being "the fantasycore band" (The Wise Man's Fear, which just sounds like bog-standard mxc anyway lmao). Deathcore, hewing a bit closer to DM, sometimes drifts in that direction but not nearly as often. The two supergenres even have a curious thing where metal songs are usually 3rd-person, distant narratives, like someone retelling a story they are emotionally distant from, and -core songs are 1st-person (in fact, damn near exclusively first person, frankly), like a person writing in their diary or directly speaking to another person.

Clean vocals in metal thus are usually more in the "stage actor melodramatically singing a tale" style. Power metal vocalists are being high-pitched and emotional, yes, but it's in a theatrical way if that makes sense.

I can only assume this is because metal ultimately derives from rock which at the time Black Sabbath and the earliest pioneers were doing stuff was focused on larger-than-life themes, and then the 80's was a time when every single thing was cartoonishly extra and by the 90's metal had already codified itself as being a bit hammy. -core on the other hand comes from hardcore, a genre that was all but designed to intentionally reject such theatrics in favor of being REAL SHIT.

I think metalcore and deathcore were absurdly lucky to really get going in the early 2000's because at that time the popular trend in music was, well, kinda quirky emo pop punk and post-harcore and alt rock and all that. If you're a kid like me in the 2000's who's playing games with Akaline Trio, Fallout Boy, and other shit like that, and you listen through My Chemical Romance's Welcome to the Black Parade on your ipod literally every day (which, yes, I did, lmao), and you want something heavier than that, something like metalcore and deathcore is much closer to that than, idk, Immolation and Burzum.

I don't blame metal fans for feeling like these two genres were absolutely throwing a damn wrench into everything. They were! The tried-and-true metal pipeline of radio rock > heavy/thrash > death/black metal had been completely fucked up! The guitar-based music on the radio was completely non-metallic. Doom's soundtrack had been explicitly influenced by thrash metal; but when kids turned on Burnout 3 and Revenge, they got hit in the face with shit like Fallout Boy and Bullet for My Valentine.

I guess my point of this absurdly long thing is that metalheads often view -core kids as "wayward souls" but it's more like they just went down an entirely different path at the start, which is why they didn't really ever cross over to metal proper in droves.

I fully believe that if you somehow could poll the ages of all metalheads in the US, you'd see a big-ass drop in like 20-27 year olds like me. You basically had to have another metalhead steer your into metal


I did read your entire post for the record, I just don't want the page to get absurdly long through quoting it. I inherently enjoy the interplay between harsh and clean vocals in one song, so that aspect that turns you off, humorously, why I like that setup of music.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:01 pm 
 

interstellar_medium wrote:
his cleans are "boy band" cleans most of the time


Vadara wrote:
However he absolutely is using a technique much more in line with traditional metal singing (the stuff you'd hear in trad or power or whatever) with a "manlier" timber.


Lol, the difference in perspective is amusing. He doesn't have the grit of a Dickinson or such, but "boy band" vocals in a more metal-ish context is more what I would think of for someone like Ashe O'Hara, though he's really good at it.

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interstellar_medium
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:54 am 
 

Yeah, Älvestam's typical harmonised cleans sound anything but "manly" to me, but then I absolutely don't listen to the "flowery" sort of male-fronted PM stuff; even most non-classical female singers in my collection tend to be "raspy" and "alto" :P

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:18 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
Ulcerate: These vocals once again have a very rough/un-edited feel to them and I just find that kind of harshness kinda off-putting. I am well aware like most -core bands edit their vocals and to be honest, I am fine with that because this kind of raw "realness" does not do much for me.

I was gonna mention this in the Ulcerate section, but another thing I am noticing in like all of these songs is that the vocalist is damn near completely random as to WHEN they come in. They just appear for like 20 seconds and then disappear and then suddenly appear again. The riffs don't build up to a vocal section the way -core songs do, they just do their shit in the background and then the vocalist comes in and leaves. It's incredibly jarring as someone used to music where the instrumentals clearly are built around letting the vocalist breathe and do their stuff.


You've written a whole lot of stuff that can summarized in these few lines. You seem to dislike vocals that feels organic and that arent over-produced and heavily edited, but you also seem to think that your disliking for music that isn't written around vocals and that doesn't put them right in the middle of the song-writing and mixing is actually a good criticism of the quality of the music. It is not. Death metal is not a vocals lead genre, for the most part, and the place the vocals take in the music is actually quite fine. I don't want melodic build-ups written around vocals and leading to melodic poppish choruses in my death metal. If that's what you like, then you might be better off sticking to deathcore and melodic death metal. But death metal is doing perfectly fine as it is, and synthetic, edited, over-produced vocals need to stay out of death metal.

And about the vocals coming in at random in more progressive or avant-garde death metal, I really don't hear it. I listen to bands like Ulcerate and Blood Incantation on a daily basis, and the fact that the vocals are scarce and spread out over the tracks doesn't mean they come in at random. It means that the vocals in most death metal are usually like another instrument instead of being the central piece around which the music is written. So just like in jazz music, you might have sections where there is an instrument leaving completely, then coming back for the next section. This actually makes the music breathe more then having vocals taking the front stage and having all the other instruments just being a backing band for the singer, with the occasionnal guitar solos to remind you you're listening to a metal band.

Edit: A bunch of obvious typos I somehow missed...


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:16 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Vadara wrote:
Ulcerate: These vocals once again have a very rough/un-edited feel to them and I just find that kind of harshness kinda off-putting. I am well aware like most -core bands edit their vocals and to be honest, I am fine with that because this kind of raw "realness" does not do much for me.

I was gonna mention this in the Ulcerate section, but another thing I am noticing in like all of these songs is that the vocalist is damn near completely random as to WHEN they come in. They just appear for like 20 seconds and then disappear and then suddenly appear again. The riffs don't build up to a vocal section the way -core songs do, they just do their shit in the background and then the vocalist comes in and leaves. It's incredibly jarring as someone used to music where the instrumentals clearly are built around letting the vocalist breathe and do their stuff.


You've written a whole lot of stuff that can summarized in these few lines. You seem to dislike vocals that feels organic and that arent over-produced and heavily edited, but you also seem to think that your disliking for music that isn't written around vocals and that doesn't put them right in the middle of the song-writing and mixing is actually a good criticism of the quality of the music. It is not. Death metal isn't not a vocals lead genre, for the most part, and the place the vocals take in the music is actually quite fine. I don't want melodic build-ups written around vocals and leading to melodic poppish choruses in my death metal. If that's what you like, then you might be better off sticking to deathcore and melodic death metal. But death metal is going perfectly fine as it is, and synthetic, edited, over-produced vocals needs to stay out of death metal.

And about the vocals coming in at random in more progressive or avant-garde death metal, I really don't hear it. I listen to bands like Ulcerate and Blood Incantation on a daily basis, and the fact that the vocals are scarce and spread out over the tracks doesn't mean they come in at random. It means that the vocals in most death metal are usually like another instrument instead of being the central piece around which the music is written. So just like in jazz music, you might have sections where there is an instrument leaving completely, then coming back for the next section. This actually makes the music breathe more then having vocals taking the front stage and having all the other instruments just being a backing band for the singer, with the occasionnal guitar solos to remind you you're listening to a metal band.



Very well said. Death metal, and extreme metal in general, doesn't revolve around vocals and the vocalist like the deathcore bands he's linking, and we like it just fine that way.

That doesn't mean the vocalists aren't good, some of them are very good at what they do, it's just not all about them, and I agree that the vocalists not being so overbearing allows the music to breath, whereas when I hear that kind of deathcore I feel like they are trying to make it all about the vocals and the music doesn't get the time to shine as much.

It's kind of like how you have some of those shred bands or old school rock bands that are all about the guitarist and everyone else is just a side role. You'll have this guitarist going on and on with 12 minute solos and the other band members don't even get to do their thing. i don't want that either, nor do I want to hear 12 minute drum solos.

That being said, of course this is hyperbole because in deathcore other stuff is going on while the vocalists sing, but I can hear that it's a very vocal driven genre, and death metal and black metal aren't in that same way, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."

Neither death, nor black, nor grind or any of our genres really at least TO MY EAR seem to be trying so hard to present this in between kind of sound. I just have a hard time hearing the singer go between these different extreme ends and make it all try to fit so perfectly. It comes off wrong to me, and aside from that, I hear the musicianship sounding less prioritized and just over produced as well in general. Everything is over produced, trying too hard to sound perfect, and comes off sounding anything but.

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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:38 pm 
 

In extreme metal, vocals don't have to make the band for me because the vocal patterns can just be part of the song as if it is another instrument. There are extreme metal bands that I like that I think have generic vocals. However, vocals can absolutely break the band for me... If I find the vocals to be absurd or comical, then I can't take the rest of the band serious no matter how good they may be musically. At best case scenario, they become a novelty act to me...

Outside of extreme metal, vocals will always make or break the band for me. If you're attempting to be a great singer, you need to BE a great singer. Or if you're just the 'vocalist' / 'front person' and not meant to be a great singer; again, that comes back to you needing to fit with the music. If your vocals take me out of the music, then I can't listen to your band.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:36 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
That being said, of course this is hyperbole because in deathcore other stuff is going on while the vocalists sing, but I can hear that it's a very vocal driven genre, and death metal and black metal aren't in that same way, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."


I agree that the balance is hard to find when you try to mix clean and harsh vocals in the same songs. Now of course, not all -core genres and melodic death metal are playing to these fads and trends, so they don't all end up sounding like Vanna or basically another one of these copy+pasta and trend hopper bands.

But even when the purpose is obviously not to go for the pop vocals, it's hard to have a good balance when you try to have both vocal styles in the same songs. Some bands make it work, while some others don't pull it off quite as well. It's also about subjective appreciation too, obviously. For instance, I've always enjoyed Chistian Alvestam's vocals when he was with Scar Symmetry. His range is absolutely phenomenal. His growls and gutturals are solid, and I really love his cleans, but some people in here said they hated them.

As for deathcore, not all of them use clean vocals, so we have to at least try to be fair, haha! Deathcore usually sounds better without clean vocals. Well, in my opinion, it usually works better when they don't. There are exceptions though. A good mix of the death growls and hardcore style shouted vocals can also do wonders, in my opinion. Bands like Despised Icon balanced these out pretty well, and the results were always quite satisfying. Not my favorite genre of music, so I hardly ever revisit their discography, but it's still solid.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:57 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
In extreme metal, vocals don't have to make the band for me because the vocal patterns can just be part of the song as if it is another instrument. There are extreme metal bands that I like that I think have generic vocals. However, vocals can absolutely break the band for me... If I find the vocals to be absurd or comical, then I can't take the rest of the band serious no matter how good they may be musically. At best case scenario, they become a novelty act to me...

Outside of extreme metal, vocals will always make or break the band for me. If you're attempting to be a great singer, you need to BE a great singer. Or if you're just the 'vocalist' / 'front person' and not meant to be a great singer; again, that comes back to you needing to fit with the music. If your vocals take me out of the music, then I can't listen to your band.


This also accurately describes how I fell. I can easily enjoy a thrash, death or black metal band with relatively generic but capable vocals, and I will always prefer more standard vocals that fill their purpose just fine, over vocals that stick out like a sore thumb. The reason behind this being that vocals are usually not as central to the music in extreme metal as they are in other more vocal-driven subgenres of metal. Just like you, bad vocals in vocal-driven subgenres take me right out of the music.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:12 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
That being said, of course this is hyperbole because in deathcore other stuff is going on while the vocalists sing, but I can hear that it's a very vocal driven genre, and death metal and black metal aren't in that same way, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."


I agree that the balance is hard to find when you try to mix clean and harsh vocals in the same songs. Now of course, not all -core genres and melodic death metal are playing to these fads and trends, so they don't all end up sounding like Vanna or basically another one of these copy+pasta and trend hopper bands.

But even when the purpose is obviously not to go for the pop vocals, it's hard to have a good balance when you try to have both vocal styles in the same songs. Some bands make it work, while some others don't pull it off quite as well. It's also about subjective appreciation too, obviously. For instance, I've always enjoyed Chistian Alvestam's vocals when he was with Scar Symmetry. His range is absolutely phenomenal. His growls and gutturals are solid, and I really love his cleans, but some people in here said they hated them.

As for deathcore, not all of them use clean vocals, so we have to at least try to be fair, haha! Deathcore usually sounds better without clean vocals. Well, in my opinion, it usually works better when they don't. There are exceptions though. A good mix of the death growls and hardcore style shouted vocals can also do wonders, in my opinion. Bands like Despised Icon balanced these out pretty well, and the results were always quite satisfying. Not my favorite genre of music, so I hardly ever revisit their discography, but it's still solid.


Yeah, I also think Scar Symmetry is a band who does a good job mixing those vocals, as well as Soilwork, especially on Natural Born Chaos as has been mentioned.

And yes, I know not all deathcore has clean vocals. I really don't know a whole lot about deathcore, but the one deathcore band I do really like is Rings of Saturn, and they don't use any cleans.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:33 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."

Neither death, nor black, nor grind or any of our genres really at least TO MY EAR seem to be trying so hard to present this in between kind of sound. I just have a hard time hearing the singer go between these different extreme ends and make it all try to fit so perfectly. It comes off wrong to me, and aside from that, I hear the musicianship sounding less prioritized and just over produced as well in general. Everything is over produced, trying too hard to sound perfect, and comes off sounding anything but.


This sounds much more like a trope of metalcore than of deathcore. I can't claim expertise on deathcore, but in my experience the super poppy vocals tend to be mostly absent from it. Metalcore (at least the melodic second wave version) is more of the punk equivalent of melodic death metal, whereas deathcore tries to be more of the punk version of normal death metal, and is generally more abrasive and not that melodic. But anyway, this is where I'm kind of caught inbetween, because on one hand I'm a much bigger fan of melodeath than most here, and that alternation or amalgamation between the harsh and softer side is exactly what I like. The more generic of the more normal extreme bands who just go for purely the harsh facet can tend towards being monotonous. It can be hard to find the balance, and not everyone can do it well, but a lot of my favorite music is built around emphasizing contrasts and rapid shifts. And yet, more on the metalcore end, some of those bands do go too far for me, and the poppiness is overly saccharine in an unpleasant way.


Last edited by LithoJazzoSphere on Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SladeCraven
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:38 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."

Neither death, nor black, nor grind or any of our genres really at least TO MY EAR seem to be trying so hard to present this in between kind of sound. I just have a hard time hearing the singer go between these different extreme ends and make it all try to fit so perfectly. It comes off wrong to me, and aside from that, I hear the musicianship sounding less prioritized and just over produced as well in general. Everything is over produced, trying too hard to sound perfect, and comes off sounding anything but.


This sounds much more like a trope of metalcore than of deathcore. I can't claim expertise on deathcore, but in my experience the super poppy vocals tend to be mostly absent from it. Metalcore (at least the melodic second wave version) is more of the punk equivalent of melodic death metal, whereas deathcore tries to be more of the punk version of normal death metal, and is generally more abrasive and not that melodic. But anyway, this is where I'm kind of caught inbetween, because on one hand I'm a much bigger fan of melodeath than most here, and that alternation or amalgamation between the harsh and softer side is exactly what I like. The more generic of the more normal extreme bands who just go for purely the harsh facet can tends towards being monotonous. It can be hard to find the balance, and not everyone can do it well, but a lot of my favorite music is built around emphasizing contrasts and rapid shifts. And yet, more on the metalcore end, some of those bands do go too far for me, and the poppiness is overly saccharine in an unpleasant way.


I have a soft spot for some metalcore simply because it was at the forefront of the metal scene when I was getting into metal, so some of those bands have a lot of nostalgic appeal to me. I love more extreme genres, but there is something to be said about being able to listen to songs you can actually sing to at different points. I'm not saying I want Nile to break out into song, but I don't mind that element being there in metalcore.
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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:57 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

Lol, the difference in perspective is amusing. He doesn't have the grit of a Dickinson or such, but "boy band" vocals in a more metal-ish context is more what I would think of for someone like Ashe O'Hara, though he's really good at it.


For the record I meant "manlier" in comparison to most -core clean vocalists.

Side note: I'm surprised none of you mentioned Astronoid as they are about the only unambiguously-metal band that actually employs the same kind of "whiny" clean vocals in their music. I quite like them! Wish there were more bands like them (not a big fan of Deafheaven)

I would also like to nominate Corpsegrinder as a DM vocalist I actually think is pretty good, though I will admit, a big reason for this is his appearance in an Ice Nine Kills song where he can play off INK's Spencer Charnas. Who knew that good production + actually writing the vocal parts to coherently fit with the song = good vocals!?

HeavenDuff wrote:
You've written a whole lot of stuff that can summarized in these few lines. You seem to dislike vocals that feels organic and that arent over-produced and heavily edited, but you also seem to think that your disliking for music that isn't written around vocals and that doesn't put them right in the middle of the song-writing and mixing is actually a good criticism of the quality of the music. It is not. Death metal is not a vocals lead genre, for the most part, and the place the vocals take in the music is actually quite fine. I don't want melodic build-ups written around vocals and leading to melodic poppish choruses in my death metal. If that's what you like, then you might be better off sticking to deathcore and melodic death metal. But death metal is doing perfectly fine as it is, and synthetic, edited, over-produced vocals need to stay out of death metal.


If these bands don't care to make their vocals sound like coherent part of the songs they're in and they sound like they were literally overdubbed after the fact, then I question why they even have vocals to begin with.

I don't mind music that doesn't adhere to specific melodic structures--hell, my favorite kinds of metalcore are often the kind where the guitars don't ever follow any kind of coherent riff and just noodle all over the place in an appealing way--but I struggle to find exactly what kind of overarching structure the vocals in many extreme metals songs are adhering to. They appear at frankly random times and leave at random times, and not in a way that makes me go "woah, that's neat" but more like the vocalist just remembered "oh shit I have to do something uhhhh UHHHHHHH" in a way that's honestly pretty funny at times, but not, like, in an intentional way. I don't see the point in an "instrument" that just...exists without being woven into the song in any kind of coherent way.

But that's the way extreme metal rolls, so I just don't listen to a whole lot of it. I also listen to plenty of music without any clean vocals at all (damn, that song has better harsh vocals than any DM or BM song I've ever heard, I'm sorry to bring that up again but jesus)

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:43 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."

Neither death, nor black, nor grind or any of our genres really at least TO MY EAR seem to be trying so hard to present this in between kind of sound. I just have a hard time hearing the singer go between these different extreme ends and make it all try to fit so perfectly. It comes off wrong to me, and aside from that, I hear the musicianship sounding less prioritized and just over produced as well in general. Everything is over produced, trying too hard to sound perfect, and comes off sounding anything but.


This sounds much more like a trope of metalcore than of deathcore. I can't claim expertise on deathcore, but in my experience the super poppy vocals tend to be mostly absent from it. Metalcore (at least the melodic second wave version) is more of the punk equivalent of melodic death metal, whereas deathcore tries to be more of the punk version of normal death metal, and is generally more abrasive and not that melodic. But anyway, this is where I'm kind of caught inbetween, because on one hand I'm a much bigger fan of melodeath than most here, and that alternation or amalgamation between the harsh and softer side is exactly what I like. The more generic of the more normal extreme bands who just go for purely the harsh facet can tend towards being monotonous. It can be hard to find the balance, and not everyone can do it well, but a lot of my favorite music is built around emphasizing contrasts and rapid shifts. And yet, more on the metalcore end, some of those bands do go too far for me, and the poppiness is overly saccharine in an unpleasant way.



Well I love melodic death metal, but I don't hear as much of the shifting between those same kinds of vocals in it, minus, as mentioned before, bands like Soilwork who do a great job of it, and yes, also Scar Symmtery, but somehow those bands sound different to me.

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:48 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

Lol, the difference in perspective is amusing. He doesn't have the grit of a Dickinson or such, but "boy band" vocals in a more metal-ish context is more what I would think of for someone like Ashe O'Hara, though he's really good at it.


For the record I meant "manlier" in comparison to most -core clean vocalists.

Side note: I'm surprised none of you mentioned Astronoid as they are about the only unambiguously-metal band that actually employs the same kind of "whiny" clean vocals in their music. I quite like them! Wish there were more bands like them (not a big fan of Deafheaven)

I would also like to nominate Corpsegrinder as a DM vocalist I actually think is pretty good, though I will admit, a big reason for this is his appearance in an Ice Nine Kills song where he can play off INK's Spencer Charnas. Who knew that good production + actually writing the vocal parts to coherently fit with the song = good vocals!?

HeavenDuff wrote:
You've written a whole lot of stuff that can summarized in these few lines. You seem to dislike vocals that feels organic and that arent over-produced and heavily edited, but you also seem to think that your disliking for music that isn't written around vocals and that doesn't put them right in the middle of the song-writing and mixing is actually a good criticism of the quality of the music. It is not. Death metal is not a vocals lead genre, for the most part, and the place the vocals take in the music is actually quite fine. I don't want melodic build-ups written around vocals and leading to melodic poppish choruses in my death metal. If that's what you like, then you might be better off sticking to deathcore and melodic death metal. But death metal is doing perfectly fine as it is, and synthetic, edited, over-produced vocals need to stay out of death metal.


If these bands don't care to make their vocals sound like coherent part of the songs they're in and they sound like they were literally overdubbed after the fact, then I question why they even have vocals to begin with.

I don't mind music that doesn't adhere to specific melodic structures--hell, my favorite kinds of metalcore are often the kind where the guitars don't ever follow any kind of coherent riff and just noodle all over the place in an appealing way--but I struggle to find exactly what kind of overarching structure the vocals in many extreme metals songs are adhering to. They appear at frankly random times and leave at random times, and not in a way that makes me go "woah, that's neat" but more like the vocalist just remembered "oh shit I have to do something uhhhh UHHHHHHH" in a way that's honestly pretty funny at times, but not, like, in an intentional way. I don't see the point in an "instrument" that just...exists without being woven into the song in any kind of coherent way.

But that's the way extreme metal rolls, so I just don't listen to a whole lot of it. I also listen to plenty of music without any clean vocals at all (damn, that song has better harsh vocals than any DM or BM song I've ever heard, I'm sorry to bring that up again but jesus)



But see, the fact that so many of us DO like death metal with the vocals like this just proves that you don't really understand the aesthetic of the music. And this is, of course, assuming we are talking about the same metal bands, as obviously not all of us will like the same death or extreme metal bands and they are all different, but regardless, FOR US, the vocals do still play an important role, and you just don't get it because it's not the kind of music that appeals to you.

To me, at least if we are talking about the specific death and extreme metal bands that I like, the vocals don't strike me as completely random and incoherent like you are talking about, they just strike me as a part of the whole, and while listening they just provide an overall texture that I take in along with everything else. You hear it as incoherent and random because you are used to listening to other styles of music that don't have that same aesthetic.

There's plenty of music i don't like, but I can accept that maybe at times there are things i just can't appreciate about it because it doesn't suit my palette or I'm not accustomed to it.

There's a very particular aesthetic going on in the kinds of death metal songs you are talking about, or else so many people here wouldn't like it. You just aren't able to hear it.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:26 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
If these bands don't care to make their vocals sound like coherent part of the songs they're in and they sound like they were literally overdubbed after the fact, then I question why they even have vocals to begin with.

I don't mind music that doesn't adhere to specific melodic structures--hell, my favorite kinds of metalcore are often the kind where the guitars don't ever follow any kind of coherent riff and just noodle all over the place in an appealing way--but I struggle to find exactly what kind of overarching structure the vocals in many extreme metals songs are adhering to. They appear at frankly random times and leave at random times, and not in a way that makes me go "woah, that's neat" but more like the vocalist just remembered "oh shit I have to do something uhhhh UHHHHHHH" in a way that's honestly pretty funny at times, but not, like, in an intentional way. I don't see the point in an "instrument" that just...exists without being woven into the song in any kind of coherent way.

But that's the way extreme metal rolls, so I just don't listen to a whole lot of it. I also listen to plenty of music without any clean vocals at all (damn, that song has better harsh vocals than any DM or BM song I've ever heard, I'm sorry to bring that up again but jesus)


See, I don't have issues with you not liking death metal vocals. You don't need to like them. But I have a harder time with you trying to argue that they are somehow bad because of what you perceive as an incoherence with the music, especially when you're insisting on the fact, just a couple lines later that you like what you described as metalcore with guitars that "don't ever follow any kind of coherent riff". So somehow you're giving a freepass to incoherent riffing in music you like, but showing disdain for vocals that don't follow clear melodic patterns in music you don't like.

I might be repeating myself a little here, but again, I listen to a ton of death metal bands, and I can't think of a single example of vocals that are "overdubbed after the fact", whatever that means. And again, you keep phrasing this in different ways, and you keep coming up with ways to try and circumvent the fact that you basically don't like and/or understand music that isn't written around vocals, very melodic, or extremely simple in structure like the deathcore song you shared in that youtube link. Death metal vocals aren't random by any means, and again, I'd like to know why you think that the vocals in the music of bands like Blood Red Throne, Origin, Ulcerate or Blood Incantation are in any way, shape or form "random" or "incoherent", because I just do not agree with you in the slightest on this. I'm really trying to understand your point. Honestly. But I simply do not agree with what you're saying.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:59 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Also, for me personally, the way that these deathcore vocalists go back and forth between these super poppy "every teenage girl would die for them" clean male vocals one second, and then the growls the next, comes off as EXTREMELY "try-hard" to me.

It's like they're saying "ok, we're going to do all these super poppy clean vocals so the more "normal" people will like us, but we're still going to try our best to also be Br00tal enough, and we'll strike a perfect medium and everyone will be happy."

Neither death, nor black, nor grind or any of our genres really at least TO MY EAR seem to be trying so hard to present this in between kind of sound. I just have a hard time hearing the singer go between these different extreme ends and make it all try to fit so perfectly. It comes off wrong to me, and aside from that, I hear the musicianship sounding less prioritized and just over produced as well in general. Everything is over produced, trying too hard to sound perfect, and comes off sounding anything but.


This sounds much more like a trope of metalcore than of deathcore. I can't claim expertise on deathcore, but in my experience the super poppy vocals tend to be mostly absent from it. Metalcore (at least the melodic second wave version) is more of the punk equivalent of melodic death metal, whereas deathcore tries to be more of the punk version of normal death metal, and is generally more abrasive and not that melodic. But anyway, this is where I'm kind of caught inbetween, because on one hand I'm a much bigger fan of melodeath than most here, and that alternation or amalgamation between the harsh and softer side is exactly what I like. The more generic of the more normal extreme bands who just go for purely the harsh facet can tend towards being monotonous. It can be hard to find the balance, and not everyone can do it well, but a lot of my favorite music is built around emphasizing contrasts and rapid shifts. And yet, more on the metalcore end, some of those bands do go too far for me, and the poppiness is overly saccharine in an unpleasant way.


Well I love melodic death metal, but I don't hear as much of the shifting between those same kinds of vocals in it, minus, as mentioned before, bands like Soilwork who do a great job of it, and yes, also Scar Symmtery, but somehow those bands sound different to me.


Well, there are multiple different strains of melodic death metal. The 90s Gothenburg style is more centered around guitar melodies and sometimes harmonies, essentially grafting Iron Maiden-ish melodicism onto a more aggressive sonic palette derived from death metal. The newer style, pioneered by a lot of the same Gothenburg bands but also influenced by other bands like Fear Factory, tends to shift some of the melody onto the vocals, sometimes onto keyboards. Some of them have a bit more streamlined and poppier song structures as well.

A number of these bands get labeled by the mods here as "melodic groove metal" or "metalcore". Sometimes that verbiage is accurate, but other times it's misleading. The latter sounds like it should be like Pantera, but softer, yet some of these bands still have legitimate growls, blast beats, fast double bass, thrash beats, sometimes less melodic riffing and such. And while a band like Soilwork does have some metalcore influences, particularly in the mid-00s, I think punk fans listening to them (particularly the releases since then) would be quite disappointed at how few breakdowns and such there are. But there are a fair number of bands who have versions of this sound with mixed harsh/melodic vocals, Solution .45, Amorphis, Edge of Sanity, Miseration, Before the Dawn, Disarmonia Mundi, Eventide, Noumena, Demiurg, Nightrage, Illdisposed, Mercenary, Raintime, Satariel, Torchbearer, Universum, Deadlock, and others.

But in general there is a tension between those who see the melody in vocals and the melody in guitars as being of two completely different varieties, even subgenres, and want them to have different names to recognize this. There is also tension between those who don't even see most melodic death metal as legitimate at all, and would only grant it to bands who are still generally using death metal riffing, but maybe slightly more melodically at times, like say Intestine Baalism or Dismember. That's such a small and niche number of bands though, and isn't accurate to how bands have been characterized for decades now.

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interstellar_medium
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:52 pm 
 

Folks, I'd say that what Vadara means by "overdubbed after the fact" is actually technically true. And not only in DM, BM or metal in general...

As long as the vocalist and the songwriter are different people and the vocalist is not expected to adhere to a pre-written melody, the vocalist will add their parts when everything else has already been composed. The more adventurous the music gets, the more creativity is required then from the singer to actually make vocals fit. Many singers pretty much fail the job, regardless of the genre.

If there is a "schlager" framework to the genre, it's easier to develop coherent vocal parts, clean or harsh, especially if you are allowed to overpower the music itself.

And "good"/"bad" is mostly subjective anyway.

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:06 pm 
 

[/quote]

Well, there are multiple different strains of melodic death metal. The 90s Gothenburg style is more centered around guitar melodies and sometimes harmonies, essentially grafting Iron Maiden-ish melodicism onto a more aggressive sonic palette derived from death metal. The newer style, pioneered by a lot of the same Gothenburg bands but also influenced by other bands like Fear Factory, tends to shift some of the melody onto the vocals, sometimes onto keyboards. Some of them have a bit more streamlined and poppier song structures as well.

A number of these bands get labeled by the mods here as "melodic groove metal" or "metalcore". Sometimes that verbiage is accurate, but other times it's misleading. The latter sounds like it should be like Pantera, but softer, yet some of these bands still have legitimate growls, blast beats, fast double bass, thrash beats, sometimes less melodic riffing and such. And while a band like Soilwork does have some metalcore influences, particularly in the mid-00s, I think punk fans listening to them (particularly the releases since then) would be quite disappointed at how few breakdowns and such there are. But there are a fair number of bands who have versions of this sound with mixed harsh/melodic vocals, Solution .45, Amorphis, Edge of Sanity, Miseration, Before the Dawn, Disarmonia Mundi, Eventide, Noumena, Demiurg, Nightrage, Illdisposed, Mercenary, Raintime, Satariel, Torchbearer, Universum, Deadlock, and others.

But in general there is a tension between those who see the melody in vocals and the melody in guitars as being of two completely different varieties, even subgenres, and want them to have different names to recognize this. There is also tension between those who don't even see most melodic death metal as legitimate at all, and would only grant it to bands who are still generally using death metal riffing, but maybe slightly more melodically at times, like say Intestine Baalism or Dismember. That's such a small and niche number of bands though, and isn't accurate to how bands have been characterized for decades now.[/quote]



"Yeah, I love a lot of the bands you are mentioning there like: Amorphis (one of my all time favorite bands), Noumena, Nightrage, Satariel, etc.

I don't have a problem with bands trying to mix cleans with growling, i guess I just don't like the particular way some of the bands that Vadara has shared do it, and also their guitar playing and overall style.

It's just different. And yes, I know about the whole "melodic death metal isn't death metal" argument, and I don't really give it much thought really.

I mean, it is kind of true that in many ways melodic death metal is an entirely different style and sub-genre of metal than OSDM, and it's hard sometimes to even consider bands like Old In Flames, newer Amorphis or Ensiferum as being the same genre as Immolation, Origin or Cannibal Corpse.

I do see them as separate styles, but I don't really have a problem with the name "melodic death metal."

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:44 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:

Lol, the difference in perspective is amusing. He doesn't have the grit of a Dickinson or such, but "boy band" vocals in a more metal-ish context is more what I would think of for someone like Ashe O'Hara, though he's really good at it.


For the record I meant "manlier" in comparison to most -core clean vocalists.

Side note: I'm surprised none of you mentioned Astronoid as they are about the only unambiguously-metal band that actually employs the same kind of "whiny" clean vocals in their music. I quite like them! Wish there were more bands like them (not a big fan of Deafheaven)

I would also like to nominate Corpsegrinder as a DM vocalist I actually think is pretty good, though I will admit, a big reason for this is his appearance in an Ice Nine Kills song where he can play off INK's Spencer Charnas. Who knew that good production + actually writing the vocal parts to coherently fit with the song = good vocals!?

HeavenDuff wrote:
You've written a whole lot of stuff that can summarized in these few lines. You seem to dislike vocals that feels organic and that arent over-produced and heavily edited, but you also seem to think that your disliking for music that isn't written around vocals and that doesn't put them right in the middle of the song-writing and mixing is actually a good criticism of the quality of the music. It is not. Death metal is not a vocals lead genre, for the most part, and the place the vocals take in the music is actually quite fine. I don't want melodic build-ups written around vocals and leading to melodic poppish choruses in my death metal. If that's what you like, then you might be better off sticking to deathcore and melodic death metal. But death metal is doing perfectly fine as it is, and synthetic, edited, over-produced vocals need to stay out of death metal.


If these bands don't care to make their vocals sound like coherent part of the songs they're in and they sound like they were literally overdubbed after the fact, then I question why they even have vocals to begin with.

I don't mind music that doesn't adhere to specific melodic structures--hell, my favorite kinds of metalcore are often the kind where the guitars don't ever follow any kind of coherent riff and just noodle all over the place in an appealing way--but I struggle to find exactly what kind of overarching structure the vocals in many extreme metals songs are adhering to. They appear at frankly random times and leave at random times, and not in a way that makes me go "woah, that's neat" but more like the vocalist just remembered "oh shit I have to do something uhhhh UHHHHHHH" in a way that's honestly pretty funny at times, but not, like, in an intentional way. I don't see the point in an "instrument" that just...exists without being woven into the song in any kind of coherent way.

But that's the way extreme metal rolls, so I just don't listen to a whole lot of it. I also listen to plenty of music without any clean vocals at all (damn, that song has better harsh vocals than any DM or BM song I've ever heard, I'm sorry to bring that up again but jesus)



Vadara: So you keep saying that death metal in particular has completely random vocals that are incoherent and come in and out at random times, but exactly what bands are you talking about that do that?

Listen to these 3 death metal songs and whether or not you like the vocals, tell me honestly if it sounds like the vocals have no structure and aren't in there at specific moments following along with the music in their own unique way:

Deicide: https://youtu.be/R9NESceABdA

Immolation: https://youtu.be/nGnTyzDjwoI

Death: https://youtu.be/8256VJ4hkJU


P.S. No offense, but TO MY EARS the song you linked as having "such incredible vocals" is entirely lacking (other than one noodling solo towards the end) in any real nuanced musicianship of any kind. To go along with the vocals you like so much it's nothing but "CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG...SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM!!!" There's no actual STRUCTURE and nuanced riffing and the guitar seems to serve no purpose other than to go "thud thud thud" along with the singers growls. I'll take the vocals in these songs with more interesting instrumentation along with it any day over that.

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Bluesyboy
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:38 pm
Posts: 28
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:23 am 
 

I appreciate HeavenDuffs and Starred Son's posts itt. Well said. Also, holy shit that Mental Cruelty song was the blandest cookie cutter shit I've heard in a while and the comments on the video are acting like their geniuses for adding a generic black metal riff in the beginning. What the fuck.

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NoizeKill
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:31 pm
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:21 pm 
 

For me, absolutely. I have to be into the vocals, as I see them as another instrument. If I don't like the sound of them, I would have a hard time getting into them unless the music is crazy good. I mean, we all have our preferences. I like my vocalist to be a little guttural with a powerful growl but not neccessarily discernible. I'm not a big fan of those high registered vocals like At The Gate-Slaughter of the Soul, nor am I a fan of the hardcore shout and pig squeals. Those kinds comes off as annoying and tiresome to me when listening to them for extended period.

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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:21 pm 
 

Bluesyboy wrote:
I appreciate HeavenDuffs and Starred Son's posts itt. Well said. Also, holy shit that Mental Cruelty song was the blandest cookie cutter shit I've heard in a while and the comments on the video are acting like their geniuses for adding a generic black metal riff in the beginning. What the fuck.


Yeah, I thought it was absolutely atrocious.

I don't mean to hate on Vadara's taste for being different, and if there's any deathcore or metalcore I like I'll admit it, in fact, I'd like to find more of both styles I like, but his picks for me are awful, and the one example he uses to show that he likes music without clean vocals is that, and he thinks it's incredible just because the vocalist can do some pretty deep growls.

To my ear, if you like that song literally ALL you are able to hear is the vocals. Yes, there is a sub-par guitar solo at the end, doesn't change anything. WHILE the vocalist is actually barking away there is absolutely nothing of substance going on musically. It' nothing but slams and bass drops one after another after another after another. It's less a song and more a serious of slams and bass drops accompanied by growling and minimalistic drumming and nothing more, with a super long ambient intro leading up to it and a noodly guitar solo to end it.

This is another one of the biggest problems in the deathcore I've heard: that it's all about the slams and bass drops. I like the way slams and bass drops sound USED MINIMALLY along with other good instrumentation, not that shit.

It seems that everything he likes is almost entirely revolved around how the vocalist sounds. I'm capable of liking music that has zero vocals at all, but the music I do like with vocals generally does not center everything so much around the vocalist.

If anyone has examples of deathcore or metalcore that isn't 100% centered around vocals (either clean or growling) and which actually has INTERESTING MUSICIANSHIP, then I'm all ears.

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Vadara
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:54 pm 
 

I don't merely like MC for the vocals, I also like them because their music is a perfect combination of brutal death metal riffs with breakdowns, slams, and black metal influences (in a matter far more intelligent than most BDM which is generally braindead caveman shit). Also Also that solo was good, I dunno how the fuck you can look me in the metaphorical eye and pretend that it wasn't pretty fuckin' sick lmao

Metalheads honestly laser-focus on instrumentals so much it's a bit silly. If there isn't a riff going on in the background then y'all start complaining. I'm all for riffs but I don't need them to be 100% of a song. So, yes, that MC song is sometimes pretty simplistic on the guitar front. I know. I simply don't mind the guitar letting the vocals breathe a bit. It has an incredibly rich atmosphere because the song is actually built around that atmosphere instead of being solely built around the guitars.

I also absolutely value instrumentation and don't ignore it. Like, my favorite genres of music are things like djent/technical metalcore, swancore (basically technical progressive post-hardcore) and other shit full of wanky guitar noodling. I just don't have a problem with simpler instrumentation in my music either.

This is just a difference in tastes that isn't really reconcilable. You will never find a metalcore or deathcore band that does what you want, because the two genres just do not have any interest in being that. Even when they are being technical and full of guitarwork, they do things in a radically different way:

Spoiler: show




Here. I even specifically picked the instrumental versions so the vocals aren't in the way, because they actually do cover up a lot of the leads--ERRA is one of the rarer metalcore bands whose guitars are going nuts like 90% of the time, even during vocal sections. This is band I have already said is probably my favorite band of all time (this album marks the first vinyl I've ever bought on release day, and I still haven't opened it because I don't want it or the case being damaged). ERRA's extremely technical guitarwork is half the reason I love them, but it's a kind of guitarwork alien to metal proper, being almost entirely unfocused on riffing in a traditional metal sense. As such you almost certainly will not like it, because we just have pretty radically different tastes on what counts as "good instrumentation". I can already picture your response: "this is a bunch of chaotic noodly wank with an awful djenty guitar tone and no actual focus" and like...yeah. That's what it is and I love it lmao

And that's really what it is. You keep assuming that I must simply not be understanding these death metal songs and their vocals, when the actual answer is I do understand mostly what they're going for: I simply just have tastes so radically different that I don't personally like them. The metalhead mythology that metalcore and deathcore are nothing but debased, flawed imitations of metal are just not true. They are radically different genres that have almost nothing in common with metal. I didn't get into metalcore because I was too pussy to listen to "real" metal or even because I wanted to listen to metal but was led astray by -core.

My big-ass tangent before rings true: I had a completely different trajectory of music than basically anyone here. I didn't listen to metal as a kid nor did I have metal-loving parents. I grew up listening to post-hardcore and pop punk, and then got into metalcore and then deathcore later. I WAS exposed to trad, power, and the lighter sides of thrash through pop culture osmosis since they were more mainstream than extreme metal, and I do enjoy those genres, but they are an ancilliary part of my music listening.

I find it difficult to jive with extreme metal because that is just not what I grew up on. I don't like metalcore because I like metal. Frankly, the more metallic metalcore gets the less I like it. I like it because I like stuff like this and metalcore is very roughly cut from the same cloth as this.

Spoiler: show






I absolutely ADORE the instrumentals of these songs--they are a massive reason why I adore them--but as I said before, they are an entirely alien kind of guitarwork compared to metal's heavy riffing and thus you won't like them. The catchy intro of Twisted Tongues that breaks into catchy chords and then that little tapping bridge at 0:40; Repudiations lazy meandering notes in the beginning that lead into its catchy intro riff; Jogan Gohan Johan and Chucky vs. the Giant Tortoise basically being entire songs of nothing but wonderful wanky guitar spazzing. I guarantee you that you will hate these songs for the same damn reason I fucking love them.

I didn't grow up listening to extreme metal the way I assume you did. The musical subculture that I grew up around is just different. There's no real way around that. The insinuation that I don't value instrumentals is honestly insulting--what we consider "good guitarwork" is just fundamentally alien to each other outside of some very minor overlap around trad metal (I assume you like trad metal because come on, who doesn't).

The things we dislike about each other's taste in music is what the other loves about it. There's just no way around it. I am mostly on this forum by coincidence. I honestly shouldn't even really be here.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:56 pm 
 

Vadara wrote:
I don't merely like MC for the vocals, I also like them because their music is a perfect combination of brutal death metal riffs with breakdowns, slams, and black metal influences (in a matter far more intelligent than most BDM which is generally braindead caveman shit). Also Also that solo was good, I dunno how the fuck you can look me in the metaphorical eye and pretend that it wasn't pretty fuckin' sick lmao

Metalheads honestly laser-focus on instrumentals so much it's a bit silly. If there isn't a riff going on in the background then y'all start complaining. I'm all for riffs but I don't need them to be 100% of a song. So, yes, that MC song is sometimes pretty simplistic on the guitar front. I know. I simply don't mind the guitar letting the vocals breathe a bit. It has an incredibly rich atmosphere because the song is actually built around that atmosphere instead of being solely built around the guitars.

I also absolutely value instrumentation and don't ignore it. Like, my favorite genres of music are things like djent/technical metalcore, swancore (basically technical progressive post-hardcore) and other shit full of wanky guitar noodling. I just don't have a problem with simpler instrumentation in my music either.

This is just a difference in tastes that isn't really reconcilable. You will never find a metalcore or deathcore band that does what you want, because the two genres just do not have any interest in being that. Even when they are being technical and full of guitarwork, they do things in a radically different way:

Spoiler: show




Here. I even specifically picked the instrumental versions so the vocals aren't in the way, because they actually do cover up a lot of the leads--ERRA is one of the rarer metalcore bands whose guitars are going nuts like 90% of the time, even during vocal sections. This is band I have already said is probably my favorite band of all time (this album marks the first vinyl I've ever bought on release day, and I still haven't opened it because I don't want it or the case being damaged). ERRA's extremely technical guitarwork is half the reason I love them, but it's a kind of guitarwork alien to metal proper, being almost entirely unfocused on riffing in a traditional metal sense. As such you almost certainly will not like it, because we just have pretty radically different tastes on what counts as "good instrumentation". I can already picture your response: "this is a bunch of chaotic noodly wank with an awful djenty guitar tone and no actual focus" and like...yeah. That's what it is and I love it lmao

And that's really what it is. You keep assuming that I must simply not be understanding these death metal songs and their vocals, when the actual answer is I do understand mostly what they're going for: I simply just have tastes so radically different that I don't personally like them. The metalhead mythology that metalcore and deathcore are nothing but debased, flawed imitations of metal are just not true. They are radically different genres that have almost nothing in common with metal. I didn't get into metalcore because I was too pussy to listen to "real" metal or even because I wanted to listen to metal but was led astray by -core.

My big-ass tangent before rings true: I had a completely different trajectory of music than basically anyone here. I didn't listen to metal as a kid nor did I have metal-loving parents. I grew up listening to post-hardcore and pop punk, and then got into metalcore and then deathcore later. I WAS exposed to trad, power, and the lighter sides of thrash through pop culture osmosis since they were more mainstream than extreme metal, and I do enjoy those genres, but they are an ancilliary part of my music listening.

I find it difficult to jive with extreme metal because that is just not what I grew up on. I don't like metalcore because I like metal. Frankly, the more metallic metalcore gets the less I like it. I like it because I like stuff like this and metalcore is very roughly cut from the same cloth as this.

Spoiler: show






I absolutely ADORE the instrumentals of these songs--they are a massive reason why I adore them--but as I said before, they are an entirely alien kind of guitarwork compared to metal's heavy riffing and thus you won't like them. The catchy intro of Twisted Tongues that breaks into catchy chords and then that little tapping bridge at 0:40; Repudiations lazy meandering notes in the beginning that lead into its catchy intro riff; Jogan Gohan Johan and Chucky vs. the Giant Tortoise basically being entire songs of nothing but wonderful wanky guitar spazzing. I guarantee you that you will hate these songs for the same damn reason I fucking love them.

I didn't grow up listening to extreme metal the way I assume you did. The musical subculture that I grew up around is just different. There's no real way around that. The insinuation that I don't value instrumentals is honestly insulting--what we consider "good guitarwork" is just fundamentally alien to each other outside of some very minor overlap around trad metal (I assume you like trad metal because come on, who doesn't).

The things we dislike about each other's taste in music is what the other loves about it. There's just no way around it. I am mostly on this forum by coincidence. I honestly shouldn't even really be here.



I'll check out some of this stuff later and tell you my personal opinion on it, but you criticize death metal in ways that we also find ridiculous.

You say that the vocals come in at and out nonsensical moments and are incoherent, and I posted some recent examples for you to listen to and respond to and honestly tell me if you feel that way about those tracks because I don't see how you could, but I guess you didn't get to it, so please go back and check those out and tell me if you can honestly say that about those tracks.

You may value musicianship, but just an entirely different type from that which we do, because as far as the MC song you listed, sure, it has a solo, but that's AFTER the vocals are over, and it's an ok solo, but what sucks about the song IMO is what it sounds like when the singer is singing. There's no guitar melody or riffs to really hold it together and it's just slam after slam and bass drop after bass drop. FOR ME, that's not good enough. I don't want to hear just growling with slams and bass drops and then when the singer stops they throw in a solo to end the song to show they can be technical, I want a certain specific kind of musicianship and I want it going on AT THE SAME TIME as the vocals but NOT REVOLVING AROUND THEM. I want them to work together as a whole, and I don't hear it in that song.

On the other hand, if you listen to the death metal songs I posted in my last post to you, you will hear a different kind of real riffing that is holding the song together.

So...yeah, I still don't think you really do understand what death metal and lots of other extreme metal is all about from the same perspective as us because of the way you refer to it as "incoherent", and perhaps we don't understand deathcore or metalcore.

One thing I DON'T think, is that deathcore or metalcore is simply trying to be metal and failing as you basically put it. I am well aware of the fact that they aren't trying to be the same style, nor do I think of you as some kind of pussy for not liking death or black or grindcore. I think you just have different tastes which are not my style or the style of most of the people on this board, and yes, I don't think you really fully get the death metal and extreme metal aesthetic as far as the vocals are concerned, but when I played you some of my favorite bands you actually liked a few of them, so I guess to some extent you do like some of it.

At some point I'll probably come back to this thread and listen to this, and it's true, I may not like it.

I'd like to find some deathcore and metalcore that I DO like.

There is a little, like, I like Rings of Saturn and they are deathcore, and The Red Chord is ok, and as for metalcore, Converge and Coalesce are also decent, but that's old metalcore and I'm not sure if that's the kind of sound that modern metalcore has as I hear it's changed a lot.

And honestly, if there's any black metal at all, or any brutal death metal in the band you linked, you'll have to post other examples, because I don't hear any in that track. FOR SURE there is zero black metal in that song.

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