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Opus
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:09 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
By calling it "extreme" we aren't necessarily subscribing to the idea that it can't get any heavier, it's just a category.

This is what I said on the first page! It's just a name. It's not about what hurts the poor normies' ears the most, or how cool you are listening to the most extremiest music ever. It's a term for black and death metal.

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
When you have metal that's pretty much just a wall of abrasive sound with barely decipherable notes and rhythms, where do you go from there?

Oh, you just wait until they put that ninth string on the guitars. Then it will be really heavy!
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:50 pm 
 

Well...your mileage vary on the heaviness though...

Spoiler: show

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:20 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
By calling it "extreme" we aren't necessarily subscribing to the idea that it can't get any heavier, it's just a category.


Opus said: "This is what I said on the first page! It's just a name. It's not about what hurts the poor normies' ears the most, or how cool you are listening to the most extremiest music ever. It's a term for black and death metal."




I mean, I do mean it's a name, but I also mean it's generally meant for the heaviest metal music out there generally speaking. It's kind of both, and it also includes grindcore for sure, and to be honest as much as many of us dislike deathcore, probably lots of deathcore, most sludge like Eyehategod type stuff, etc.

But that being said, I think it is also specific to death and black metal more than any other genres, and it is certainly possible some other kind of metal could come out that could be heavier but not get included.

Like, the fact that you didn't even mention grindcore, and neither did another poster, nor did they mention deathcore, is probably due IMO (but I could be wrong) to the fact that it is also a sub-genre of punk which makes things murkier, but nevertheless, it does count as extreme metal IMO.

On that note, Djent is rarely mentioned, but I think most here would agree that Meshuggah makes it in.

And this mention of punk begs the question for any punks on here: is there such a thing as "Extreme punk"?

Whether or not that's a name for harder punk, there is certainly harder punk, mainly stuff like: hardcore, fastcore, crust, dbeat, powerviolence, etc.

So it's like, powerviolence doesn't make it into "extreme metal" because it's more punk than metal. Likewise, you have power electronics and harsh noise, very heavy genres, but they don't make it into extreme metal.

Not all heavy music is metal or even if it were, we don't know if we'd agree on it being "extreme metal", so just because a bunch of people think a certain metal band is really heavy doesn't necessarily mean it should be considered "extreme metal."

So while i do believe that "extreme metal" is a name, it is generally also descriptive of the heaviest metal out there IMO, but I don't think it is 100% subjective and up to debate.

It would be quite hard to put a power metal band for example under "extreme metal" I think because it was never part of the definition.

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Boychev
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Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:49 am
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:01 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
And I didn't say anything about it getting more melodic, just that the most common and popular DM releases in the past decade or so tend to be OG icons making comebacks or newer bands paying tribute to those sounds. And that's just an inherently less extreme sound than the brutal and tech death that was more popular in the 00s.


The whole point of the OSDM revival was that too much focus on speed, technicality, and breakdowns had sterilized the genre. Autopsy's Mental Funeral is still more brutal than anything Necrophagist or Origin have ever pulled off - not because it's faster or more technical or the guitars had the latest most crushing EMG pickups, but because it more effectively conveys a brutal, sickening, suffocating atmosphere.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:00 am 
 

Boychev wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
And I didn't say anything about it getting more melodic, just that the most common and popular DM releases in the past decade or so tend to be OG icons making comebacks or newer bands paying tribute to those sounds. And that's just an inherently less extreme sound than the brutal and tech death that was more popular in the 00s.


The whole point of the OSDM revival was that too much focus on speed, technicality, and breakdowns had sterilized the genre. Autopsy's Mental Funeral is still more brutal than anything Necrophagist or Origin have ever pulled off - not because it's faster or more technical or the guitars had the latest most crushing EMG pickups, but because it more effectively conveys a brutal, sickening, suffocating atmosphere.


I just don't think "brutal" is the right word for it. You can certainly argue that Autopsy is superior to those, with a better atmosphere and writing, but it's reminiscent of the argument that Black Sabbath is still the heaviest band of all time, which I don't think makes sense. "Brutal" is defined as "savagely violent; punishingly hard or uncomfortable; direct and lacking any attempt to disguise unpleasantness", and while I can understand preferring Autopsy to many of the tech and brutal bands, which I would agree with myself, thinking they've lost something in the process, I don't think it's brutality or extremity that is what is lost.

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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:01 pm 
 

The way i think of it is that thrash can be both extreme and non-extreme. It is other factors of the music that makes it extreme or not such as the heaviness of the guitars, and the style of vocals.
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:35 pm 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
The way i think of it is that thrash can be both extreme and non-extreme. It is other factors of the music that makes it extreme or not such as the heaviness of the guitars, and the style of vocals.


Yep, this is also how I view it. Several thrash bands from Germany and a few in North America such as Morbid Saint, Demolition Hammer and Infernal Majesty tapped into the same sort of dark, aggressive character that was just starting to be explored by the early entries of the Florida death metal scene. They weren't quite as far along as Death's Leprosy or Autopsy's Severed Survival, but I think there was enough commonality there to be a common link. In its time Metallica's "Fight Fire With Fire" was among the more aggressive offerings in the thrash style, but I wouldn't put Metallica in the extreme metal camp, nor would I put Slayer's albums prior to Hell Awaits in the extreme camp, though I would put said album and Reign In Blood in that camp. Slayer and Destruction are where I think the line gets a bit blurry, but anything within the thrash paradigm that surpasses them in brutality would go into the extreme metal camp, in my opinion.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:58 pm 
 

Boychev wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
And I didn't say anything about it getting more melodic, just that the most common and popular DM releases in the past decade or so tend to be OG icons making comebacks or newer bands paying tribute to those sounds. And that's just an inherently less extreme sound than the brutal and tech death that was more popular in the 00s.


The whole point of the OSDM revival was that too much focus on speed, technicality, and breakdowns had sterilized the genre. Autopsy's Mental Funeral is still more brutal than anything Necrophagist or Origin have ever pulled off - not because it's faster or more technical or the guitars had the latest most crushing EMG pickups, but because it more effectively conveys a brutal, sickening, suffocating atmosphere.


It's funny how you are stating this as if it's not a matter of opinion. I like Autopsy and Mental Funeral a lot but it's DEFINITELY debatable that's it's more brutal or more extreme than Origin.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:25 pm 
 

something can be more extreme in some ways but overall less extreme and if you connect more with those ways instead then something might feel less extreme. Autopsy is definitely more nasty and disgusting than Origin but the latter are way more brutal and punishing. This ties in with like quite a few of us are seasoned fans of extreme metal and lost awareness of how extreme a lot of it is. Where the average person would find both but especially Origin completely overwhelming, people who are familiar with both genres might just find them boring and thus they are automatically perceived as less extreme.

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:35 pm 
 

It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:41 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?

I'd consider some forms of funeral doom to be quite extreme but that's probably a very subjective opinion.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:49 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?


There's plenty of very extreme but also slow and punishing bands.

One example that comes to mind would be the band Winter and their great album "Into Darkness": super slow, super heavy and punishing, and in some ways not ENTIRELY different from Obituary during their slower moments who are also punishing, though obviously they get faster at times.

Autopsy has plenty of slow riffs, Celtic Frost's 'Monotheist" is crushingly brutal, as is Triptykon and stuff like Disembowlment, super heavy doom like Burning Witch, sludge like Eyehategod etc.

There's tons of super extreme slow heavy doom-death, sludge etc.

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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:54 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?


There's plenty of very extreme but also slow and punishing bands.

One example that comes to mind would be the band Winter and their great album "Into Darkness": super slow, super heavy and punishing, and in some ways not ENTIRELY different from Obituary during their slower moments who are also punishing, though obviously they get faster at times.

Autopsy has plenty of slow riffs, Celtic Frost's 'Monotheist" is crushingly brutal, as is Triptykon and stuff like Disembowlment, super heavy doom like Burning Witch, sludge like Eyehategod etc.

There's tons of super extreme slow heavy doom-death, sludge etc.


It looks like we do agree on something! I would say that death/doom, funeral doom and sludge are all extreme genres and none are particularly fast (though death/doom and sludge can have upbeat sections).

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AxeCapitol
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:27 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?


There's plenty of very extreme but also slow and punishing bands.

One example that comes to mind would be the band Winter and their great album "Into Darkness": super slow, super heavy and punishing, and in some ways not ENTIRELY different from Obituary during their slower moments who are also punishing, though obviously they get faster at times.

Autopsy has plenty of slow riffs, Celtic Frost's 'Monotheist" is crushingly brutal, as is Triptykon and stuff like Disembowlment, super heavy doom like Burning Witch, sludge like Eyehategod etc.

There's tons of super extreme slow heavy doom-death, sludge etc.


Per your prior quote: “I like Autopsy and Mental Funeral a lot but it's DEFINITELY debatable that's it's more brutal or more extreme than Origin.”

Above you state Autopsy is slow and brutal.

My question is, are there slower bands that are more “extreme” than faster bands, e.g Origin?

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:01 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
I would say that death/doom, funeral doom and sludge are all extreme genres


Loosely, yes, though some funeral doom may barely count. Is there funeral doom with only clean vocals? Even some that has them, like Remembrance, is so atmospheric and relaxing that it's hard to think of it as really extreme.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:43 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
It seems that speed + vox is what is defining “extreme” here. Are there any slow bands that could compete with say Origin in “extreme ness”?


There's plenty of very extreme but also slow and punishing bands.

One example that comes to mind would be the band Winter and their great album "Into Darkness": super slow, super heavy and punishing, and in some ways not ENTIRELY different from Obituary during their slower moments who are also punishing, though obviously they get faster at times.

Autopsy has plenty of slow riffs, Celtic Frost's 'Monotheist" is crushingly brutal, as is Triptykon and stuff like Disembowlment, super heavy doom like Burning Witch, sludge like Eyehategod etc.

There's tons of super extreme slow heavy doom-death, sludge etc.


Per your prior quote: “I like Autopsy and Mental Funeral a lot but it's DEFINITELY debatable that's it's more brutal or more extreme than Origin.”

Above you state Autopsy is slow and brutal.

My question is, are there slower bands that are more “extreme” than faster bands, e.g Origin?



I mean one way or another it would just be my opinion you are asking for.

But are you asking for slow death metal bands that I think are more extreme than faster death metal bands, or are you asking about other genres that I don't generally consider to be as extreme like thrash, or other extreme genres like black metal or grindcore?

I mean when it comes to Autopsy and Origin i don't necessarily think of one as being more extreme than the other because both are brutal. Autopsy is old school, generally slower paced and sick pioneering death metal whereas Origin is relatively newer technical and very heavy death metal. If a gun is to my head I'd say I feel Origin MIGHT be more extreme.

But I guess to me, I think Winter as a slow doom/death band sounds more extreme than Sadus, who are a quality old school death-thrash band, and Sadus is fast, so yes then. That might be because a lot of Sadus's stuff strikes me as being half way between thrash and death, or thrash/death or death/thrash if you will, and not just straight up death metal. And by that token, I would also say that I think Autopsy is more brutal than Sadus. This also might be sacrilege, but I think both Winter and Autopsy are heavier than the very earliest Death albums like Scream Bloody Gore or Possessed's early thrash/death albums, and those are all fast.

So, that would be my answer for you that yes, I think it's possible in my personal subjective opinion.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:21 am 
 

I'm trying to think of examples, and it might theoretically be conceivable, but a band with arguably the heaviest guitar tone I know of, Celtic Frost on Monotheist and Triptykon, for as crushing and suffocating as they sound slow, sounds even more extreme on the faster tracks like "Progeny", "Ain Elohim", "A Thousand Lies", and "Tree of Suffocating Souls". Arguably because some of those have faster and slower parts, both sound more intense since they're juxtaposed against each other.

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:02 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm trying to think of examples, and it might theoretically be conceivable, but a band with arguably the heaviest guitar tone I know of, Celtic Frost on Monotheist and Triptykon, for as crushing and suffocating as they sound slow, sounds even more extreme on the faster tracks like "Progeny", "Ain Elohim", "A Thousand Lies", and "Tree of Suffocating Souls". Arguably because some of those have faster and slower parts, both sound more intense since they're juxtaposed against each other.


What's interesting is that I've seen threads on here where more than one poster has said that in order for metal to be truly "heavy" in their opinion it needs to be slow.

I don't see it that way at all, but I can understand the general type of music they are thinking of. They are thinking of crushingly THICK oppressive metal like Triptykon, Winter, Disembowlement, Karelian Isthmus era Amorphis, the slowest Autopsy tracks, the slowest Obituary stuff, etc.

Then again, the word "heavy" is different from "extreme."

Then you also have entirely different adjectives like "dark" or "fast", etc. There's all kinds of criteria for what makes a band brutal if we go by different definitions.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:13 am 
 

Yeah, "heavy" and "extreme" are very different. A lot of tech death bands are extreme, brutal, fast, violent, etc., but aren't especially heavy, because there's no weight to some of them. Not much deep bass in the mix, too much time on higher-pitched arpeggios, clicky bass drums, sometimes the production is too clean and sterile, etc.

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Boychev
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:49 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:28 am 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Boychev wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
And I didn't say anything about it getting more melodic, just that the most common and popular DM releases in the past decade or so tend to be OG icons making comebacks or newer bands paying tribute to those sounds. And that's just an inherently less extreme sound than the brutal and tech death that was more popular in the 00s.


The whole point of the OSDM revival was that too much focus on speed, technicality, and breakdowns had sterilized the genre. Autopsy's Mental Funeral is still more brutal than anything Necrophagist or Origin have ever pulled off - not because it's faster or more technical or the guitars had the latest most crushing EMG pickups, but because it more effectively conveys a brutal, sickening, suffocating atmosphere.


It's funny how you are stating this as if it's not a matter of opinion. I like Autopsy and Mental Funeral a lot but it's DEFINITELY debatable that's it's more brutal or more extreme than Origin.


Sure, but in exactly the same way, there's nothing inherently more brutal and extreme about speed and technicality. Tons of jazz fusion bands play music that's super fast and difficult to follow, that doesn't make them extreme.

I just think there's a reason a whole lot of bands rejected that sound and went "back to the roots". While a band like Nile have a unique aesthetic and successfully manage to put their technical chops for the purposes of that aesthetic, I just don't see what the point of a band like Necrophagist or Decrepit Birth or Origin or Spawn of Possession just churning out what might as well be someone's GuitarPro project is supposed to be. Sure, it's very impressive that they can play like that, but so what? I'm more down with the next generation of tech bands like Obscura and Beyond Creation that took that sound in a more progressive and somewhat more organic-sounding direction, but the early 00s brutal tech stuff just sounds like pointless self-indulgence with some exceptions.

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draconiondevil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:55 pm 
 

Ok so back to thrash. I think that thrash exhibits all of the elements that are extreme about death metal, doesn't it? Except maybe the vocals but even still most thrash bands use aggressive shouts or shrieks which aren't too different to what early death metal bands were doing, yet they're extreme and thrash is not? Altars of Madness rules and is an extreme metal album, but I wouldn't say it's all that heavy. Just my two cents.

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:31 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Yeah, "heavy" and "extreme" are very different. A lot of tech death bands are extreme, brutal, fast, violent, etc., but aren't especially heavy, because there's no weight to some of them.


Spot on.

"Heaviness" can manifest in more ways than one. There are classic rock songs that are undeniably heavy to my ears; heavier, indeed, than tech-death. Examples that immediately spring to mind:

"Machine Gun" - Hendrix, Band of Gypsies
"Dazed and Confused", "Since I've Been Loving You", "In My Time of Dying", and others by Zep
"The Hunter" - Free
"Sister Morphine", "Midnight Rambler", "Stray Cat Blues" - the Stones

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Thy Shrine
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:10 pm 
 

Probably not, but I think you're out of your fucking mind if you're gonna tell me that Slayer, Dark Angel or Destruction aren't Extreme metal, those bands back in the day were every bit as heavy and brutal as all the shit that came to be in the next few years after them, and I think their songwriting styles definitely took them into a realm far closer to Extreme metal, Same honestly with UK Sabbat, they're totally an Extreme band.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:52 pm 
 

"Boychev said:

"Sure, but in exactly the same way, there's nothing inherently more brutal and extreme about speed and technicality. Tons of jazz fusion bands play music that's super fast and difficult to follow, that doesn't make them extreme.

I just think there's a reason a whole lot of bands rejected that sound and went "back to the roots". While a band like Nile have a unique aesthetic and successfully manage to put their technical chops for the purposes of that aesthetic, I just don't see what the point of a band like Necrophagist or Decrepit Birth or Origin or Spawn of Possession just churning out what might as well be someone's GuitarPro project is supposed to be. Sure, it's very impressive that they can play like that, but so what? I'm more down with the next generation of tech bands like Obscura and Beyond Creation that took that sound in a more progressive and somewhat more organic-sounding direction, but the early 00s brutal tech stuff just sounds like pointless self-indulgence with some exceptions.[/quote]"



There's nothing NECESSARILY inherently brutal about speed and technicality, you are right, but there's no question TO ME that all the bands you mentioned are brutal and extreme, and we are just going to have to agree to disagree on your statement that stuff by such great bands as Necrophagist, Origin and Decrepit Birth is "pointless self-indulgence".

If you think that then I don't see why you wouldn't think the same of just about any technical and heavy brutal death/death metal band. I see those bands as about as good as it gets at least as that style is concerned, along with other great bands like Neuraxis, Augury, Ulcerate and so many others.

Calling it "someone's guitar pro project" sounds ridiculous to me. Those bands are not just talented but they have their own unique styles and visions and are EXTREMELY heavy to my ears. So yeah, you've lost me on that one.

Also, I don't think there's really any true great "reason" behind why so many bands have become OSDM clones, and frankly, I'm not very fond of it. Sure, some of them are decent, but bands like Tomb Mold and the like are boring. If I wanted to listen to something like that I'd listen to Cianide's early stuff or Autopsy or Dismember or Grave or something like that.

The best OSDM is the original stuff IMO. I have relatively little interest in "new" OSDM in the same way I have little interest in the thrash revival. I'm not too into a lot of retro stuff. I'd rather go back and listen to the original bands to play those styles and focus on newer stuff that's actually doing something different, which was the whole point of bands like Necrophagist and Origin that you mentioned.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:10 am 
 

Tomb Mold is one of my favorites of the revivalists. They incorporate bits of various earlier bands, but don't really sound quite like any of them in particular to me. But yeah, there are plenty of others that go in one ear and out the other for me (some of which are more popular here, which mystifies me, but hey, not every band hits everyone the same).

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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:49 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Tomb Mold is one of my favorites of the revivalists. They incorporate bits of various earlier bands, but don't really sound quite like any of them in particular to me. But yeah, there are plenty of others that go in one ear and out the other for me (some of which are more popular here, which mystifies me, but hey, not every band hits everyone the same).


I don't mind them. I listen to them sometimes and they have good songs, but they were just the first of the OSDM revivalist bands to come to mind. I guess after a while they get boring, but I think I went too hard on them because i couldn't readily remember so many other names. I just don't agree with the take that something was lacking in great death metal bands like Necropaghist and Origin so bands had to go back to emulating their idols. That kind of thing gets old pretty quickly, and I think there's still plenty of new stuff that can be done in all the sub-genres if bands can just use their creativity. If I want something old I'll listen to something old rather than a newer band playing the same style most likely.

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Boychev
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:53 am 
 

I'm not fond of stuff like Tomb Mold either, or Blood Incantation's prog pretensions, or the groovy stuff like Frozen Soul that appears to be trending right now, but bands like Obliteration, Sepulcher, Krypts, Horrendous, Execration, even some more "meat and potatoes" stuff like the first Undergang and Machetazo have pulled off albums in the last decade that sound super fresh and exciting to my ears as someone who has already heard pretty much everything good there is to hear from the old school scene from Florida to Finland. They don't feel like cheap knockoffs at all, but rather bands with their own take on the style. They moved on from revivalism and developed into something else that doesn't feel the need to just be "faster, more technical".

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The KICKARSEAussIe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:46 am 
 

It is it was only once all the beer pizza thrash bands came along that people started saying it's not part of extreme metal when in the 80s it was some of the most extreme and brutal stuff out their

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Texas King
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:11 am 
 

From Wikipedia:
The term usually refers to a more abrasive, harsher, underground, non-commercialized style associated with the speed metal, thrash metal, black metal, death metal, and doom metal genres. Hardcore punk has been considered an integral part of the development of extreme metal, in the case of song structure and speed, in every case other than doom metal.

This could be true. Even doom metal and speed metal are considered extreme metal.
But maybe it depends on a certain band as many people said in this thread. For example, Megadeth is maybe not extreme in terms of thrash metal to many people, but pre-Roots Sepultura could be. Or Candlemass might not be extreme (doom) metal to some people, but Electric Wizard could be.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:44 pm 
 

That's really a whole separate conversation, but it does operate along the same lines. I would say that both thrash and doom metal are not inherently extreme, but they do become so at a point when certain bands become intense enough.

The KICKARSEAussIe wrote:
It is it was only once all the beer pizza thrash bands came along that people started saying it's not part of extreme metal when in the 80s it was some of the most extreme and brutal stuff out their


When I was starting to listen to thrash in the late 90s/early 00s pizza thrash wasn't a thing yet, but I wouldn't say that all the Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeth, Deliverance, Tourniquet, and Heathen that I was listening to was extreme metal. Now if you listening to Morbid Saint, Demolition Hammer and such, sure.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 pm 
 

Yeah, but The extreme doom metal subgeneres are those that mix with black and death metal.

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DanielG06
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:29 pm 
 

Personally I think it depends on the band. Some thrash metal should definitely be considered extreme metal because of the production and excessive use of double bass, like Warbringer and early Ultra-Violence. But as for early thrash metal, I think the production is too thin, but this also applies to a lot of newer bands. Some thrash albums I would consider to be extreme metal would be Dreamweaver by Sabbat, Darkness Descends by Dark Angel, anything by Demo Hammer, Morbid Saint's first record, also early Sepultura, depending on the song, and definitely other Brazilian bands such as Sarcofago and Chakal.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:08 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, but The extreme doom metal subgeneres are those that mix with black and death metal.


Right, but I hear far too many conversations where people don't differentiate and just label doom as a straight up extreme genre. Like, in no universe is The Gathering's Mandylion extreme metal.

DanielG06 wrote:
Some thrash metal should definitely be considered extreme metal because of the...excessive use of double bass


It might edge it in that direction, but that's not really inherently extreme though, tons of power metal bands use lots of it, for example.

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pp3088
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:52 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
I would say that death/doom, funeral doom and sludge are all extreme genres


Loosely, yes, though some funeral doom may barely count. Is there funeral doom with only clean vocals? Even some that has them, like Remembrance, is so atmospheric and relaxing that it's hard to think of it as really extreme.


Seriously?

Rigor Sardonicus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsHBYP62TMg
Esoteric - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3p02wOftXs
Ataraxie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov2FZblGY3U
The Funeral Orchestra - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRAAadnpYHs

If you do not consider those extreme then I will be speechles.

Remembrance is one of the most polished and "light" FDM out there. I really like them but they are not even comparable to the rest. I would call them "funeral gothic metal" for shit and giggles.

There is also drone doom, heck things like Khanate, Burning Witch or Trees are some of the most abrassive, extreme music I have ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Ag4B4m0Cs

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:24 am 
 

You seem to have only skimmed my post. I said "some". Obviously there are funeral doom bands that are clearly extreme (quite possibly the vast majority of them). It probably depends on what your standard for extremity is, as evidenced earlier in this thread and elsewhere there are people here who don't count melodic death as an extreme subgenre. If that's the case it's hard to imagine them considering the more dreamy, ethereal funeral doom bands to be extreme. And fortunately I've been doing some funeral doom research in the last couple months, so I actually found some funeral doom bands with material that is predominantly clean, such as Fallen, Omit, Skumring, Funeral, and The Howling Void. So funeral doom has a wide range of moods, from the relatively calmer to the more jarring.

As for Remembrance, the archives here, and many other sites consider them funeral doom. Our lyrical themes for them are "disease, hopelessness, pain, death". Sounds pretty doomy to me. Not sure why you'd think "gothic" is more fitting, they have less in common with those types of artists.

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Texas King
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:11 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, but The extreme doom metal subgeneres are those that mix with black and death metal.


But "Dopethrone" has no black or death metal elements and it's an extreme metal album IMO.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:16 am 
 

Texas King wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, but The extreme doom metal subgeneres are those that mix with black and death metal.


But "Dopethrone" has no black or death metal elements and it's an extreme metal album IMO.

Nah, I don't consider stoner metal to be extreme metal.

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Texas King
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:19 am 
 

For example, do you consider "Turn Loose the Swans" by My Dying Bride extreme metal? I do.
Do you consider "Filosofem" by Burzum extreme metal? I'd say I'm unsure. "Blood Fire Death" by Bathory sounds much more extreme than Filosofem to me.
Do you consider "Through Silver in Blood" by Neurosis extreme metal. I'd say maybe.

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Texas King
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Texas King wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Yeah, but The extreme doom metal subgeneres are those that mix with black and death metal.


But "Dopethrone" has no black or death metal elements and it's an extreme metal album IMO.

Nah, I don't consider stoner metal to be extreme metal.


I think stoner metal is just a dumb and meaningless term. What is stoner metal? What is the definition of general sound in stoner metal?
For example, both Electric Wizard and Orange Goblin are considered stoner metal and they sound nothing alike, EW is way heavier and way more doomy.

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Gravetemplar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:35 am 
 

Texas King wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Texas King wrote:
But "Dopethrone" has no black or death metal elements and it's an extreme metal album IMO.

Nah, I don't consider stoner metal to be extreme metal.


I think stoner metal is just a dumb and meaningless term. What is stoner metal? What is the definition of general sound in stoner metal?
For example, both Electric Wizard and Orange Goblin are considered stoner metal and they sound nothing alike, EW is way heavier and way more doomy.

They sound different because Electric Wizard are a stoner/sludge metal band and Orange Goblin a a stoner metal/psychedelic rock band. Clearly different bands with different influences but both mix the stoner rock sound with metal, albeit in a very different way.

If you consider stoner metal a dumb term I don't even know what to tell you, it's one of the easiest to tell subgenres since all the bands literally sound just like three or four different bands.

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