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GratefulDeadInside
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:24 am 
 

I've noticed that more... I dunno what you call it... "Experienced" metalheads have a disdain for groove metal, calling it mostly redneck skinhead metal. I sorta get that, Phil Anselmo is one of metal's biggest skinheads, but is all groove metal redneck trash? I haven't listened to much of it outside of Lamb Of God and Pantera, so it'd be helpful if anyone here knows of decent groove metal.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:28 am 
 

I would check out this thread.

https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=131962

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:53 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:41 am 
 

Anselmo's absolutely a skinhead asshole, but I still spin Cowboys from Hell and The Great Southern Trendkill every once in a while. Both of those albums are honestly pretty great, first one's full of catchy headbangers and TGST is a great piss and vinegar kind of record, perfect for when you're angry as shit and need music to channel that. I've also come to enjoy the occasional Lamb of God tune here and there, I'm sure you could compile an absolute banger of an album if you grabbed stuff like Walk With Me in Hell and Contractor from all around their career and shoved it into a single CD.

I think the reason a lot of groove metal just kinda misses the mark is that it dials the angry and knuckledragging aspects of the genre all the way to 120% at the cost of everything else. In groove you don't generally have things like an impressive vocalist or memorable hooks to keep your attention as a listener, just simple chugging and A. BIG. SHOUTY DUDE. Shit, I'm not inherently against simplicity front and center (Jungle Rot fan here), but give me something to hold on to besides the barest of the basics.
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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:24 am 
 

Exhorder's The Law is probably my favorite groove metal album. The problem with a lot of groove metal for me is that pseudo-toughguy approach that bands like Five Finger Death Punch bring. I really dislike that vocalist style. The riffs tends to be a lot of chuga chuga that gets old rather fast. The riffing in groove metal tends to sound like watered down thrash where I would rather just be listening to thrash.
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Last edited by AcidWorm on Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:26 am 
 

Pantera doesn't have hooks? They are loaded with them.

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Sunbuilder
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Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:33 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:45 am 
 

When done right, some groove can be awesome and make some heavy/thrashy stuff more catchy and heavier. The best examples I can think of are Exhorder - Slaughter in the Vatican, Sepultura - Arise, and maybe a little bit in Atrophy - Violent by Nature with some of the crushing riffs and catchy moments. Those albums are still thrashy as hell, but have some of those slower/heavier groove parts/breakdowns that add something nice to the already very nice music lol! Evildead's - The Underworld had some more of those breakdowns and slower moments too, which was perfectly executed with their thrash style. I think the best example of full on groove/nu-metal that I can still enjoy is Sepultura's - Chaos AD. I've warmed up to Roots a while ago too, but I can completely understand why many wouldn't like it.

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I think the reason a lot of groove metal just kinda misses the mark is that it dials the angry and knuckledragging aspects of the genre all the way to 120% at the cost of everything else. In groove you don't generally have things like an impressive vocalist or memorable hooks to keep your attention as a listener, just simple chugging and A. BIG. SHOUTY DUDE. Shit, I'm not inherently against simplicity front and center (Jungle Rot fan here), but give me something to hold on to besides the barest of the basics.


This. I also think that a lot of the hate for groove has to do with how it somewhat contributed to/inspired nu-metal in the mid 90s as it marked a sort of transition in the direction of metal (referring to mainstream of course) in the mid 90s, which ultimately led to the rise of nu-metal. I think many would claim that groove was where metal started to become "dumbed down" for slower and more primitive riffs with hooks and "tough-guy" shout vocals, etc. When done right and in small doses (like in the albums I mentioned above) it can be great and add a little something sweet to the sweetness of the thrash, but when overdone, just like adding too much sugar it will just be bad and ruin the recipe lol.

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EvergreenSherbert
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:35 pm 
 

Some of the most popular metal bands today are groove metal, or use groove metal elements. Lamb of God is usually called groove metal, I have no problem with them. Gojira also leans into some groove metal territory, and I've never once heard any Gojira slander.
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Milo
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:43 pm 
 

Ceremony of Opposites is basically a groove metal album, and is generally well received.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:43 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:

I think the reason a lot of groove metal just kinda misses the mark is that it dials the angry and knuckledragging aspects of the genre all the way to 120% at the cost of everything else.


Well said.
There's little, if any, dynamics to be found amongst the groove metal I've heard. Sure, Pantera's music could be dynamic at times, but the mouth breathing, knuckle-dragging "tough guy" vibe just smothers it.

Lamb of God opened for Megadeth a few months ago....I thought they were horrific. Just a monotonous wall of sound....one speed only.

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MDL
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:59 pm 
 

No, it isn't. The people who say that are just (rightfully) fed up with Anselmo's behaviour, but it feels like they aren't matured enough to understand that not all of the 6134 groove metal bands cataloged on MA are a copy past of Anselmo. It's like those kids who say that all grown-ups are bad because their parents won't buy them the most expensive toy on the store's shelves.

Also maybe because groove metal was a percursor to nu metal, or mallcore, or whatever the hell they want to call it. There are actually plenty of groove bands that don't sound like Machine Head, such as District Unknown, Extremities, The Unguided, Fire & Flesh, Xenesthis and so on. And no, they aren't all about chugga-chugga riffs and the ill-fated "tough guy" attitude.

For sure, it was responsible for the surge of nu metal and alternative metal, but one has the choice of not listening to these. It's a musical genre you can choose to avoid, it's not like it is leprosy or something of that sort.

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CannibalCorpse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:37 pm 
 



I'm currently very much into Oomph's third album "Defekt", which is somewhat of a breed between groove metal and Neue Deutsche Härte, released in 1995.

The influence they had on Rammstein is clearly evident but to me, they were the much better band in their heyday, with stronger guitar riffs and better writing + better vocals (before they turned to abhorrent bubble-gum nu-pop-rock in the early 2000s - which worked for them commercially).
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:40 pm 
 

This thread needs more Fight's War of Words. It's not a perfect album by any means but I've always loved it. You can tell Halford had a legitimate interest in the development and put a unique spin on it.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:03 pm 
 

MDL wrote:
Xenesthis


Didn't expect to see this band mentioned here. Thou shalt not is pretty fun.

MDL wrote:
For sure, it was responsible for the surge of nu metal and alternative metal


It depends what you mean by "surge" and by "alternative metal", but technically the original alt metal scene predates groove metal. The out of control expansion where every band who doesn't fit on M-A but doesn't make sense as an alt rock band does happen later though.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I think the reason a lot of groove metal just kinda misses the mark is that it dials the angry and knuckledragging aspects of the genre all the way to 120% at the cost of everything else.


This here, pinpoints the reason why a lot of groove is pretty bad. It's also the case for a lot of bands from niche genres that focus too much on very specific traits of the music, therefore sacrificing other important aspects. Don't get me wrong, I love very brutal death metal, or extremely raw black metal, but even within genres/subgenres that lean heavily on some core elements of their specific genre, there is usually, among the best bands a form of balance amidst all of this, that actually makes the music memorable and worthwhile. Blotted Science, for instance, stood out of the whole tech/prog death wankery that was going on at the time, because Jarzombek had a unique vision and approach that made his music standout.

The same applies to groove, but for some reason, there is more shit coming out of the genre, But like others pointed out, Gojira always incorporated groove metal elements in their sound, and it was always done so well, they managed to pull ahead and get recognized as a force to reckon with.

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TheLoneForest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:19 pm 
 

Yes

/Thread

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:09 pm 
 

A number of people are pointing to disliking the stereotypical "toughguy" attitude, but you could knock black metal for the same thing, with the cliched "evilguy" posturing. I tried to suss out more opinions earlier this year in another thread, and there were a few nuggets of insight, but it's still curious why some bands get a pass and others don't, and I still feel there's more to it.

https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131252

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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:26 pm 
 

Sunbuilder wrote:
When done right, some groove can be awesome and make some heavy/thrashy stuff more catchy and heavier. The best examples I can think of are Exhorder - Slaughter in the Vatican, Sepultura - Arise, and maybe a little bit in Atrophy - Violent by Nature with some of the crushing riffs and catchy moments. Those albums are still thrashy as hell, but have some of those slower/heavier groove parts/breakdowns that add something nice to the already very nice music lol! Evil.


It's been a while since I've heard that Exhorder album, so I may be misremembering on that front, but I'm all too familiar with Arise. That thing is NOT groove metal by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, it's closer to OSDM to my ears.

Also, just to address the thread topic generally, groove metal for me is one of the sparsest genres when it comes to songs/bands that are consistently good and bring the riffs. Granted, I haven't heard much outside the biggest names. It does have its highlights, so to me it's not an offensively atrocious genre, just a meh one.

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:34 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
A number of people are pointing to disliking the stereotypical "toughguy" attitude, but you could knock black metal for the same thing, with the cliched "evilguy" posturing. I tried to suss out more opinions earlier this year in another thread, and there were a few nuggets of insight, but it's still curious why some bands get a pass and others don't, and I still feel there's more to it.

https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131252

This is a fair point, I always found the whole "Trve Kvlt 100% Arysk Norysk No Love No Ice Cream Black Metal" vibe to be childish and stupid rather than even half-way intimidating. You're a guy who plays in a band, not a fucking D&D necromancer, go touch some grass.

More BM guys should look back to the way King Diamond did theatrics. At least KD didn't come off as a dweeb.
Nocturnal_Evil about Sepultura's Arise wrote:
That thing is NOT groove metal by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, it's closer to OSDM to my ears.

Accurate. It's got some pretty solid mid-tempo riffs here and there, such as in Dead Embryonic Cells, but it's thrash/death metal all the way.
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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:42 pm 
 

In addition to the tough guy charade being a problem, I'd think there was another reason for groove metal being largely marred. This is only speculation as I wasn't there when groove metal started getting flak.

Not only did the majority of bands not really have great riffs, but the riffs they did create/emulate from bigger bands opened the door for nu-metal. The stop/start, choppy ones are what I'm talking about. Think "Live in a Hole" and "This Love" by Pantera.

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raumr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:01 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
A number of people are pointing to disliking the stereotypical "toughguy" attitude, but you could knock black metal for the same thing, with the cliched "evilguy" posturing. I tried to suss out more opinions earlier this year in another thread, and there were a few nuggets of insight, but it's still curious why some bands get a pass and others don't, and I still feel there's more to it.

https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131252

This is a fair point, I always found the whole "Trve Kvlt 100% Arysk Norysk No Love No Ice Cream Black Metal" vibe to be childish and stupid rather than even half-way intimidating. You're a guy who plays in a band, not a fucking D&D necromancer, go touch some grass.

That was one of the roots of the Norwegian scene. If you read their interviews, half of them did live action role playing (LARPing) as teenagers. Also black metal is hardly unique in being informed by fantasy literature, RPGs and nerd culture in general.

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
go touch some grass.

Is that the newest meathead "get laid, virgin!" insult? :boring:
Also LARPing usually involves being outside, so your ignorance is showing.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:10 pm 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
Not only did the majority of bands not really have great riffs, but the riffs they did create/emulate from bigger bands opened the door for nu-metal. The stop/start, choppy ones are what I'm talking about. Think "Live in a Hole" and "This Love" by Pantera.


Honestly that's one of the underappreciated aspects to me. Metal riffs could use some more rhythmic diversity, way too many of them are just streams of 8th or 16th notes. Overusage of chugging and certain kinds of syncopation can have their own issues when not well-incorporated, but I think there should be less knee-jerk running from them than there is, they have their uses. And the riff at 2:47 in "This Love" is awesome, though it's not the rhythmic variety that makes it so.

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Bingewolf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:19 pm 
 

To be honest, I've always been a fan of groove metal and "southern metal," so to speak. We all know Anselmo is a complete dickhead but, before we found that out, I always liked Pantera musically. I also like Exhorder, some Lamb of God, some White Zombie and some other bands as well.

The Haunted and some other bands have also put out music that could be considered groove/groove influenced.

I can totally see how people call Black Label Society "redneck" - and there's definitely a redneck influence to Pantera - or even a bunch of the sludge metal bands - but I don't think it applies to all. It definitely has a distinctively American influence but I think you can hear bands with more of an influence from American urban life, bands who are distinctively southern, etc. Typically bands that go with industrial elements (like Prong) don't sound southern to my ears... Machine Head doesn't sound southern either. Pantera definitely does though, which makes sense because they are southern.

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Curious_dead
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:22 pm 
 

This thread made me realize I had no idea what groove metal was.

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:32 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
stuff

Touched a nerve, eh?

Dude, I play Dungeons and Dragons. I know where all that stuff comes from. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna find a bunch of upper middle class kids cosplaying as evil Satan worshippers kinda lame, especially when they do ridiculous criminal bullshit to amp up their kvlt points with their peers.

Thank you for schooling me in the ways of LARPing, I am a much more enlightened and tolerant being now, God be with you.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:43 pm 
 

Groove metal and it's bastard sons southern metal and mallcore....to me it's false. The ONLY band to use some groove metal and make it work is Morgana Lefay. Phil era Pantera is one those shit stains on metal.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:46 pm 
 

Good to see "if you are a false don't entry" is alive and well

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Sunbuilder
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:47 pm 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
Sunbuilder wrote:
When done right, some groove can be awesome and make some heavy/thrashy stuff more catchy and heavier. The best examples I can think of are Exhorder - Slaughter in the Vatican, Sepultura - Arise, and maybe a little bit in Atrophy - Violent by Nature with some of the crushing riffs and catchy moments. Those albums are still thrashy as hell, but have some of those slower/heavier groove parts/breakdowns that add something nice to the already very nice music lol! Evil.


It's been a while since I've heard that Exhorder album, so I may be misremembering on that front, but I'm all too familiar with Arise. That thing is NOT groove metal by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, it's closer to OSDM to my ears.


Good point, I was just thinking more about the breakdowns and chugging riffs that are more prominent in Arise that subtly hinted at what was to start later with the style shift into Chaos AD. The later album of which would definitely be more grove metal style. It seems to have coincided with the general direction most of the thrash bands took in the early to mid nineties with them slowing down and shifting styles. I just think of moments in Arise like the breakdown in "Dead Embryonic Cells" and more mid-paced moments like "Desparate Cry" has a certain grove to it that I love with the chugging guitars, but I know it's still very much deeply rooted in thrashy/death metal and can't be compared to full on grove of what Pantera were doing. Maybe it could be a little more Exhorder, but really they were their own beast so it might not be "grove" then but still has more breakdowns.

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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:03 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Good to see "if you are a false don't entry" is alive and well

Kinda like the walk like a duck, quack like a duck? Actually it's kind of like the criteria used on this site....which I think has gotten a bit lacks but I guess the mods find some redeeming metal qualities in bands like Lamb of God and the like. I don't agree but I'm not a mod and this not my site, and really only make mention of it when topics like this come up.
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raumr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:34 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I have black friends.

Well, that's just great. God bless you too, brother.

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MawBTS
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:19 pm 
 

White Zombie is one of my favorite bands. Prong and Pantera have their moments.

99% of groove metal puts me to sleep. It's not the worst genre of metal, but it's definitely the most boring. I'm talking about rubbish like Pro-Pain and Skinlab, endless plodding midpaced shit with no hooks or catchy parts and 1 riff per song. There's almost nothing I hate more. If all music sounded like that I would stop listening to music.

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From_Wisdom_To_Mabt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:43 pm 
 

Unless it's Exhorder, who elitists will accept, I can't think of many others who don't draw a ton of criticism.

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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:56 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I have black friends.

Well, that's just great. God bless you too, brother.

Way to compare griping about hobby stuff with actual fucking racism :lol: Super proportionate and all.
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Ball Cupper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:08 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
I have black friends.

Well, that's just great. God bless you too, brother.

uhhhhhhhhhhhh what


Anyway, I'm not that experienced with groove metal. I generally didn't bother with it because I wasn't interested in Pantera or anything like that. Having said that, I think that a lot of metal (especially black metal) could do with more groove. A lot of it is just... unmoving? Can't think of the right word.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:20 pm 
 

groove metal mostly is bad save for a few examples, I think for the most part where groove metal failed 90s metalcore succeeded.

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oldmetalhead
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:24 pm 
 

Some of you guys need to stop re-writing each others quotes.

I'm wondering if groove metal is the same as redneck/southern metal. Bands like Trouble, Monster Magnet, BLS, Down, etc. They all fall in the same category to me, I like some of it but generally not a big fan. I love some of the riffs of White Zombie, Clutch and some others I can't recall right now, but they fall in the same place for me. I can't stand when a singer ends every verse with "YEAH." Actually, this is part of why I lost interest in Metallica, lol

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King_of_Arnor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:43 pm 
 

Coroner's Grin is a weird yet satisfying album, it's almost like psychedelic groove metal and stands out as unique. It's one of the few times where a thrash band used slower tempos to be more experimental instead of leaning into trends.

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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:53 pm 
 

Absolutely not. There is good groove, you just got to look past the bullshit. Prong's Cleansing has lots of good groove, Seducer's Trials and Tribulations is proper thrash/groove, and you have plenty of Japanese / Korean bands that dabble in groove and it works well cause they keep it interesting. It's easy to look at the well-known side of groove and rightfully shit on it (looking at you, Machine Head), but the good ones are out there.
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Ill-Starred Son
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:57 pm 
 

Say what you want about Phil's character, I've always been a fan of Pantera, and I'm a fan of most stuff Phil does, and I also like Exhorder, Prong, early Machine Head, Sepultura's groove metal era is ok, White Zombie etc.

However, it is basically one of those few genres that I never expect anything good to come out of anymore and often forget it even exists.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nocturnal_Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:59 pm 
 

Curious_dead wrote:
This thread made me realize I had no idea what groove metal was.


I've met people who maintain it isn't a legitimate genre.

On a side note, and this site could already feature this for all I know: there should be a page/series of pages defining as clearly as possible the origins and distinct characteristics of each widely accepted metal genre. That would be super helpful. If it already exists in a thread or something, someone please point me to it.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1221
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:06 am 
 

I just remembered a band I love that M.A. considers to be a mix of groove metal, sludge and "alternative with noise rock tendencies" (to be honest, I don't hear that much groove, more noise rock with a little sludge) which is Fudge Tunnel.

That band never gets mentioned enough and Alex Newport was great in both that and Nailbomb.

I wonder what ever happened to him. Does anyone know if he still makes music?

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