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Don Karlos
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:44 am
Posts: 77
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:38 am 
 

Since Exodus released Let there be blood, i havent touched Bonded by blood, i find it weaker in every aspects, awful sounds and playing sounds sloppy, always wondered if they were drunk in recordings.

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Pizzasmasher
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:46 am 
 

Xymosys wrote:
The vast majority of metal albums released in previous 2 decades are pure unimaginative and boring shit!


Sad but true! If you look at the albums that did came out 1991 and compare them with 2001 / 2011 or this year, you see a dramatic difference.

Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2407
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:02 am 
 

Lagartija wrote:
Morn Of Solace wrote:
Nuit Noire is amazing and people are just afraid of themselves. It takes bravery to write lyrics like Scrapheap! on a black metal album :lol:

We played with that guy in Tolouse! Definitely an acquired taste, but total respect to him for getting onstage and doing all that himself.


Damn, i want to catch one of his shows without making a 1000km trip, at least once!
what year was the show? i see that he's using programmed drums now, but used to play guitar and drums simultaneously :lol:

It's an acquired taste for sure, but under the shaky playing and the odd stylistic choices there is a melodic sensibility that bigger bands wish to have :)
I also respect a lot the attitude: the madman has been doing his very own thing for years, with zero fucks given about the scene!

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Pitiless Wanderer
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:34 pm
Posts: 1561
Location: Ankara
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:56 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
Pitiless Wanderer wrote:
Megadeth isn't metal,

Uhhh...Megadeth are pretty shit, but they are definitively metal. Whut in the wurld kinda line of thinking brought you to that conclusion?!


haha, i know it's strange to hear, but yeah. For me, metal is more than just speed and loud drums. It's an actual "thing;" it has a very distinctive edge and attitude and feeling in the music. The nonsensical and childish lyrics of this band, combined with the extremely watered down "thrash" through the years, plus the transition to an arena rock sound, makes it difficult for me to call them metal in the way "similar" bands like Slayer and Exodus were/are. But yes, I'm weird and picky :-)

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6714
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:24 am 
 

Pitiless Wanderer wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Pitiless Wanderer wrote:
Megadeth isn't metal,

Uhhh...Megadeth are pretty shit, but they are definitively metal. Whut in the wurld kinda line of thinking brought you to that conclusion?!


But yes, I'm weird and picky :-)


More like full of crap. You even used the word thrash, come on there, buddy.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Veteran

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3142
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:35 am 
 

Gas_Snake wrote:
Longer is not better; in fact, it is generally worse. It's much more difficult to keep the listener's attention for a longer time span, and I'm the kind of person who prefers listening to albums front to back.


I think this is probably the majority opinion here. We had a thread on the topic last year and I recall most people preferring albums to be on the shorter side. Which would make mine more of the contrarian opinion, I generally would prefer albums be a bit longer. The reason being that while I listen a lot to full albums, I also frequently grab individual songs off albums for various playlists. Longer albums with more songs give me a better chance of there being one or more songs that catch my attention. Often I find that what bands consider b-sides or filler turn out to be favorite songs of mine.

Pizzasmasher wrote:
Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".


You or someone else posted something similar earlier in this thread, and this is an intriguing thought that I hadn't really quite considered in that way before. The counterpoint to it though is bands like Opeth and Morbid Angel, where the songwriters like Mikael and Trey feel perfectly fine cramming any idea that comes into their head into the main project, and some people hate that they do this and wish they would create separate projects for them. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I think I'm fine with the current state of affairs mostly. Lots of bands do experiment a fair amount and have multiple styles on each album or even within individual tracks. I assume side projects come about because they feel they have too many unrelated ideas to all just fit on the main album, so I generally trust their discretion about it.

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Pizzasmasher
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:54 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Gas_Snake wrote:
Longer is not better; in fact, it is generally worse. It's much more difficult to keep the listener's attention for a longer time span, and I'm the kind of person who prefers listening to albums front to back.


I think this is probably the majority opinion here. We had a thread on the topic last year and I recall most people preferring albums to be on the shorter side. Which would make mine more of the contrarian opinion, I generally would prefer albums be a bit longer. The reason being that while I listen a lot to full albums, I also frequently grab individual songs off albums for various playlists. Longer albums with more songs give me a better chance of there being one or more songs that catch my attention. Often I find that what bands consider b-sides or filler turn out to be favorite songs of mine.

Pizzasmasher wrote:
Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".


You or someone else posted something similar earlier in this thread, and this is an intriguing thought that I hadn't really quite considered in that way before. The counterpoint to it though is bands like Opeth and Morbid Angel, where the songwriters like Mikael and Trey feel perfectly fine cramming any idea that comes into their head into the main project, and some people hate that they do this and wish they would create separate projects for them. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I think I'm fine with the current state of affairs mostly. Lots of bands do experiment a fair amount and have multiple styles on each album or even within individual tracks. I assume side projects come about because they feel they have too many unrelated ideas to all just fit on the main album, so I generally trust their discretion about it.


Yes, that was me: D
I think if you look at the most popular bands in each sub-genre, you will notice that it is almost always bands that have been able to vary their style.
it's probably a lot harder to write a "one-dimensional album" that is really entertaining; than varying the tempo, etc. Of course there are bands that have succeeded; but there are few ...

There are two objective differences between the situation today and 30 years ago (or even longer ago):
1. There are more styles - but from a certain distance the differences are ridiculously small. Check out DM ...
2. In the past, side projects were the absolute exception. Imagine if Slayers had started a doom project for their slow riffs (from South ...). Isn't that the secret of the Metallica's success in the 80s? fast songs, Mitdempo songs, instrumentals, semi-ballads.

For my taste, differences in songwriting ensure that the contrasts emerge more clearly. Mid-tempo is more interesting when speed is added ... And so is dissonance. Or "technology." A dissonant riff can develop its effect better if it follows a simple "Destruction-Style" riff: not just 45 minutes "Ulcerate".

Concerning your examples: thats why i always did love blessed are the sick. Or an album like shades of god. Or odium, symbolic etc.

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101wildturkey101
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:14 am
Posts: 22
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:14 am 
 

Barnes was always a shitty vocalist, the classic albums are just so good because of the music. Butchered at Birth is vastly overrated though.

The first 6 Sabbath albums are the only ones I find worth listening to.

Death and black metal are far superior to every other subgenre.

I find Death much better as a historical artifact and influential band these days than something worth listening to repeatedly.

Metallica's self titled is a lot of fun to listen to

Saying things such as, "there's no good metal nowadays" or "modern metal has no feeling" is a vast over generalization and a cop out. This also happens across many music genres

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 1380
Location: Catalunya
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:31 am 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
Damn, i want to catch one of his shows without making a 1000km trip, at least once!
what year was the show? i see that he's using programmed drums now, but used to play guitar and drums simultaneously :lol:

It's an acquired taste for sure, but under the shaky playing and the odd stylistic choices there is a melodic sensibility that bigger bands wish to have :)
I also respect a lot the attitude: the madman has been doing his very own thing for years, with zero fucks given about the scene!

2015. I remember him sitting on a chair, draped in a cloak and playing the drums with his feet while also playing the guitar and singing. I definitely remember feeling the authenticity there, the guy really feels what he does.

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jimbies
Noose Springsteen

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 3551
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:38 am 
 

Lamb Of God is a pretty bad, boring band, but the song Walk With Me In Hell is a top 50 metal song of all time.

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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 3245
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:00 am 
 

jimbies wrote:
Lamb Of God is a pretty bad, boring band, but the song Walk With Me In Hell is a top 50 metal song of all time.

I really like 11th Hour and Vigil. Overall I think As the Palaces Burn is a cool album.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Veteran

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3142
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:12 am 
 

101wildturkey101 wrote:
Death and black metal are far superior to every other subgenre.


Considering that those are the two most popular subgenres here, it's hard to call this an unpopular opinion.

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Opus
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 3410
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:48 am 
 

Xymosys wrote:
The vast majority of metal albums released in previous 2 decades are pure unimaginative and boring shit!

Isn't that because there are so incredibly many releases now? Anyone who owns a guitar can record a decent sounding album at home and release it independently. Then they get picked up and distributed by one of these small record labels (who does great, not faulting them really). But a band should have a couple of years to hone their skills and identity.
What bothers me most about "most" new bands is the drumming. It's either just drum machines, crazy quantized and looped, or simply unimaginative.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30927
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:55 am 
 

Pizzasmasher wrote:
Xymosys wrote:
The vast majority of metal albums released in previous 2 decades are pure unimaginative and boring shit!


Sad but true! If you look at the albums that did came out 1991 and compare them with 2001 / 2011 or this year, you see a dramatic difference.

Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".


On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.
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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 3245
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:59 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Pizzasmasher wrote:
Xymosys wrote:
The vast majority of metal albums released in previous 2 decades are pure unimaginative and boring shit!


Sad but true! If you look at the albums that did came out 1991 and compare them with 2001 / 2011 or this year, you see a dramatic difference.

Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".


On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.

This. There's a lot of music coming out nowadays and some of it is as good as or better than the classics.

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6714
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:59 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:

On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.


While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.


Last edited by colin040 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3142
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:22 pm 
 

I'm kind of inbetween those two opinions. I can see some people preferring newer versions of some things, honestly. In Swedeath I actually prefer Demiurg's Slakthus Gamleby and Entrails' Tales From the Morgue to LHP, for example, as much as I love it. I don't necessarily consider the classics unimpeachable. My favorite black metal albums are mostly in the past decade or two, for another example.

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Bushido
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:30 pm 
 

Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30927
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:45 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:

On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.


While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.


Maybe. I'm just saying it's a bad idea to just write off everything new as if it can't possibly even compare. I don't listen to a lot of Swedeath outside the classics so who knows. I'm sure some of em are really good though. There's plenty I probably do not even know.

I just think there's always great stuff coming out no matter the year. What I said was about this attitude where it's like they think there stopped being any good music after some predestined point.
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Tulcakelume
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:09 pm
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:02 pm 
 

101wildturkey101 wrote:
The first 4 Sabbath albums are the only ones I find worth listening to.

I find Death much better as a historical artifact and influential band these days than something worth listening to repeatedly.

Metallica's self titled is a lot of fun to listen to

Agreed.

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Gravetemplar
Veteran

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 3245
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
Empyreal wrote:

On the contrary, art is as good now as it ever was and in any medium you can find stuff that is as good as, or better than, the classics. There's a lot of stuff out there so that means more crap too. But the idea of there being a cutoff point where a genre of art stopped being any good is just nonsense to me.


While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.

I really can't name a lot of great modern Swedish death metal bands besides Morbus Chron but there are plenty of modern Norwegain death metal bands that are better than Entombed imho. Obliteration for example to name just one.

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LithoJazzoSphere
Veteran

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3142
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:21 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


Do you just not like those subgenres or are there other albums in that style that you prefer?

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Hecatomb867
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:56 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:52 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


Do you just not like those subgenres or are there other albums in that style that you prefer?


I'm getting a strong impression that he just simply doesn't like those genres. But rather than say that, he just instead claims that they suck.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:57 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why we don't have deathgaze yet. Or crustgaze. Are death metal and punk fans just not fans of shoegaze or post-rock enough to experiment with it outside of an isolated album or track or two?

I feel like crustgaze would work, if it doesn't just evolve into shitty emo post-hardcore or something. Deathgaze also sounds like an interesting idea, I can almost imagine death metal tremolo picking over shoegaze atmospheres...

After a quick google search, I might have actually found a deathgaze kind of band called Kardashev. And they sound really good.
https://kardashev.bandcamp.com/album/peripety


This is intriguing, I'll have to check this out! My initial thought about deathgaze would be that the playing styles on guitar seem quite opposite, so it would be tough to mix them together unless 2 guitarists did them at the same time. But it also just might sound like blackened death metal since black metal and shoegaze have very similar playing styles, which explains why they go together so well.

Deathdoom1992 wrote:
Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Tool's Undertow is a metal album, much in the same way that Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger and other earlier efforts are metal albums. Loads of old Black Sabbath and stoner-influenced riffs, only one or two songs that aren't unquestionably metal. If 4 Degress and Disgustipated were replaced with songs more in the vein of Prison Sex or the title track, they would be on the archives, no question about it.


I agree with you here, I think you could definitely make a convincing argument for Tool on the Archives. I'd also argue that Aenima is very definitely metallic although I'm not sure I'd unequivocally call it a metal album. I think if you swapped out the 3 lightest tracks on Undertow for the 3 heaviest tracks on Aenima you've got yourself a metal record for sure.


Yup. I would argue that Prison Sex sounds a bit more alt-rock at times, but other than that this is spot on. Sober? Bottom? Intolerance? Undoubtedly metal. Flood is fucking haunting.

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TheCloudMinder
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 9:16 pm
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

oldmetalhead wrote:
Clean vocals > growling and screeching

My opinion and I'll die on this hill.


I completely agree with this. I think this is an unpopular view among metalheads but it's pretty much the prevailing view among music listeners in general.

A while back I said that I was one of the most diehard metalheads in the world, and I absolutely am, but that I hate death and black metal. Someone told me it "isn't right" to call myself the most diehard metalhead if I generally don't like extreme metal. I think that point of view is totally wrong and idiotic. Judas Priest is my favorite band in the world, and I love all of their music. They have always been the most definitive and most quintessential heavy metal in the world.

On another forum I argued that clean vocals are much better than harsh vocals in metal and I really was not expecting to get much backlash for having that opinion. But I guess that's pretty controversial in the metal community, at least online, which may be more dominated by underground metal fans who listen to various forms of extreme metal and whatnot.

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Lolpah
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:32 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:30 pm 
 

And When He Falleth often seems to be cited as the standout track on Theatre of Tragedy's Velvet Darkness They Fear, but it's by a decent margin the weakest song on the album. The spoken word film sample in the middle just lasts way too long (1 minute and 40 seconds!) and content-wise is honestly really cringy in the context of the song, dragging the whole thing down even though the rest of the song is really good (though not necessarily better than the rest of the album anyway).

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Bushido
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:33 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


Do you just not like those subgenres or are there other albums in that style that you prefer?

I have over 700 CDs from those 2 genres. Mostly from the 1990s and 2000s. I don’t need to play pretend that there’s another 50 to 100 albums released this year in those genres from various best of 2021 lists that are worth my time.

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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
Posts: 1238
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:04 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.


Almost all of the albums I've liked from the past couple decades were from bands that have been around since the 90s or before. Darkthrone, Burzum, Enslaved, Dodheimsgard, Aura Noir, D666, Sigh, Nokturnal Mortum, Primordial, The Chasm, Gorguts, Maiden, Blind Guardian, Virgin Steele, Helloween, Gamma Ray, Rhapsody, a few others. Maybe it's just because I got into metal in the 90s (although some of these I didn't really start getting into until the early 2000s). One of the only metal bands I can think of that released their debut in the 2000s that I LOVED and didn't just sort of like was Reverend Bizarre. Loved that last Warning album too.

I mean, who were the most praised bands? I can't get into the postmodern disso stuff like DsO, later Blut aus Nord, Portal, Ulcerate, etc. It's all so monochromatic and boring to me. Drudgery.

Taake is cool but I don't see why anyone would need more than a couple albums by him. Leviathan? Can't string a coherent song/composition together despite having some cool ideas. Xasthur? Nice atmosphere and that's all he does. Again, super monochromatic and the 'song' stays in the same place for most of the time.

The first Wolves in the Throne Room was solid but too soft for me. That goes for any of the 'cascadian' stuff, not to mention the 'blackgaze' stuff.

Modern death metal became way too blast beat-happy. I've always been pretty old-school when it comes to death metal.

Most of the 'NWoTHM' stuff has the right spirit and maybe a few great songs scattered here and there but most of the singers are garbage compared to the ones that came before. I can almost guarantee none of them will last and have a run of truly great albums.

Most of the best power metal bands are past their prime.

I think the problem is that all the subgenres have gone through their innovations already so now it's just about creating quality music within the defined boundaries - which can be hard to do when there's so much stuff out there and there's not a bubbling sense of real artistic inspiration surrounding you.

But it's all good. I can gladly relisten to my favorites (and keep checking out older bands I missed) for the rest of my remaining years.

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6714
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:17 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
colin040 wrote:
While I'm definitely not fond of the people who whine about how metal has died or shit, this is like the total opposite stance that I just don't get at all. Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that there are Swedish death metal albums released nowadays that are better than Left Hand Path and whatnot? Come on, I'm all for being realistic, but overly optimism just doesn't make sense to me.


Almost all of the albums I've liked from the past couple decades were from bands that have been around since the 90s. Darkthrone, Burzum, Enslaved, Dodheimsgard, Aura Noir, D666, Sigh, Nokturnal Mortum, Primordial, The Chasm, Gorguts, Maiden, Blind Guardian, Virgin Steele, Helloween, Gamma Ray, Rhapsody, a few others. Maybe it's just because I got into metal in the 90s (although some of these I didn't really start getting into until the early 2000s). One of the only metal bands I can think of that released their debut in the 2000s that I LOVED and didn't just sort of like was Reverend Bizarre. Loved that last Warning album too.


I'm 12 years younger than you are, so my perception isn't exactly the same as yours, but yeah, as for someone who likes his metal old and somewhat conservative, there's no point for me in searching for bands similar to Behemoth, or Deathspell Omega or whatever. That said, plenty of retro bands just get me in the mood for the classics - that's another issue! :lol: I do think that we're now living times when bands take a step further and experiment without pushing unnecessary boundaries or whatever and I see that as a good thing.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:49 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Taake is cool but I don't see why anyone would need more than a couple albums by him. Leviathan? Can't string a coherent song/composition together despite having some cool ideas. Xasthur? Nice atmosphere and that's all he does. Again, super monochromatic and the 'song' stays in the same place for most of the time.


Taake's first 3 records are great, with Nattestid being the best IMO. Very forward-thinking writing that still sounds like a raw 2nd-wave black metal album, with absolutely fantastic drumming and some of Hoest's most creative riffing.

Leviathan has been hit and miss for me, but when it hits it hits hard. Xasthur is one of those bands with good atmosphere, but I wish the production was at least a LITTLE bit more discernible and some riffs have just awkward melodies. The kind where it's like, I know what he's going for but some note choices just make it sound off, and could literally be improved vastly if you just moved this note or that note up or down a semitone. It's like he doesn't always know what key he's in, or where the notes are in the scale he's using.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1224
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:59 pm 
 

Pizzasmasher wrote:
Xymosys wrote:
The vast majority of metal albums released in previous 2 decades are pure unimaginative and boring shit!


Sad but true! If you look at the albums that did came out 1991 and compare them with 2001 / 2011 or this year, you see a dramatic difference.

Fans and specially musicians think to much into terms of "styles" - it kills creativity. People have a Band for the one Doom riff they created, they have a "dissodeath-project" not to mention their BM "main-band"; instead of bringing all the good ideas together and create something new you`ll have to deal with albums that become boring after two or 3 songs and you know they wont change the formula, because every idea that would change it became a "project".


Sorry but I think it's bullshit to say that "the vast majority of albums released in the past 2 decades are boring and unimaginative."

A lot of my favorite bands that mix extreme styles have only really started to do their thing in the 21st century.

My favorite styles overall are those that combine everything like death, black, grind, sludge, some crust punk etc or just play experimental styles like: Anaal Nathrakh, Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Knelt Rote, Dragged Into Sunlight, Benighted, Funeral Chic, Devil Master, Cattle Decapitation, Slugdge, The Berzerker, Catasexual Urge Motivation, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Baring Teeth, Plebeian Grandstand, Oranssi Pazuzu and so many others.

These bands could never have released the majority of their output in the 90s, and if you think that the majority of this stuff is unimaginative and takes zero creativity then we have a different view of what creativity means.


Last edited by Ill-Starred Son on Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1224
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:07 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


That's nuts.

I think you haven't been paying attention.

Have you even heard the recent albums by bands like: Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Xoth, Of Feather and Bone, Necrophobic, Ulthar, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Fluids, Warp Chamber, Archspire, The Zenith Passage, Ripped to Shreds, Necrot, Exhumation, etc?

Some of them might have been 2019 or 2020 rather than 2021 but regardless, all these bands have had SICK recent releases and from this comment i very much doubt you've heard almost any of it.

If you have and you think most of this stuff sucks then either you don't like most extreme metal period or your taste is, shall we say, lacking...

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1484
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:34 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
On that note, gatekeeping is a good thing. The fact that we have people running around trying to assert that Burzum's prison albums are actually good means it's not being done enough.


Going off this, the fact that people like Burzum at all given Varg's atrocious opinions and statements is baffling to me and itself evidence of a skewed priority. But this is more just me letting politics supersede music. But it is what it is.


IMO that's a bit of a modern take....Back in the day they were just albums, and he was locked away, the internet was in its infancy and you had to seek out some underground photocopied fanzine to read to his wacky opinions. I see people now equating wearing a Burzum shirt to a, I dont know, Skrewdriver or Aryan War 88 (or whatever shitty NSBM band idiots are into) one, which historically it never was given you could buy them in mainstream shops and nobody gave a shit. Giving that guy an internet connection was a serious mistake I swear.
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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2929
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:43 pm 
 

Pitiless Wanderer wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
Pitiless Wanderer wrote:
Megadeth isn't metal,

Uhhh...Megadeth are pretty shit, but they are definitively metal. Whut in the wurld kinda line of thinking brought you to that conclusion?!


haha, i know it's strange to hear, but yeah. For me, metal is more than just speed and loud drums. It's an actual "thing;" it has a very distinctive edge and attitude and feeling in the music. The nonsensical and childish lyrics of this band, combined with the extremely watered down "thrash" through the years, plus the transition to an arena rock sound, makes it difficult for me to call them metal in the way "similar" bands like Slayer and Exodus were/are. But yes, I'm weird and picky :-)


Dude, you're delusional. Megadeth is a metal band. Your opinion is not "unpopular" it's just wrong.

Nothing about what they did on albums like Peace Sells and Rust in Peace could ever be remotely considered "watered down" thrash metal. And your whole comparison with Slayer and Exodus is plain stupid. That's like arguing that Slayer and Exodus are not metal because Origin and Decapitated are heavier and more br00tal.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:48 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


That's nuts.

I think you haven't been paying attention.

Have you even heard the recent albums by bands like: Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Xoth, Of Feather and Bone, Necrophobic, Ulthar, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Fluids, Warp Chamber, Archspire, The Zenith Passage, Ripped to Shreds, Necrot, Exhumation, etc?

Some of them might have been 2019 or 2020 rather than 2021 but regardless, all these bands have had SICK recent releases and from this comment i very much doubt you've heard almost any of it.

If you have and you think most of this stuff sucks then either you don't like most extreme metal period or your taste is, shall we say, lacking...


I don't know why you're even bothering with him here. People confuse unpopular opinions with half-baked uninformed opinions. He obviously knows nothing of these bands or has not given them a fair chance. This opinion is exactly the contrarian trolling I was talking about a few pages back. I don't mind people having unpopular opinios, but damn, you have to be pretty damn intellectually dishonest to say that "Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks." It's complete bs. Not worth the effort you put into replying to him. Solid list of bands though.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 30927
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:52 pm 
 

Scorntyrant wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
On that note, gatekeeping is a good thing. The fact that we have people running around trying to assert that Burzum's prison albums are actually good means it's not being done enough.


Going off this, the fact that people like Burzum at all given Varg's atrocious opinions and statements is baffling to me and itself evidence of a skewed priority. But this is more just me letting politics supersede music. But it is what it is.


IMO that's a bit of a modern take....Back in the day they were just albums, and he was locked away, the internet was in its infancy and you had to seek out some underground photocopied fanzine to read to his wacky opinions. I see people now equating wearing a Burzum shirt to a, I dont know, Skrewdriver or Aryan War 88 (or whatever shitty NSBM band idiots are into) one, which historically it never was given you could buy them in mainstream shops and nobody gave a shit. Giving that guy an internet connection was a serious mistake I swear.


True but that just wasn't my experience. I only work with what I got. But yes I understand it was different before.

Re: newer bands' quality... when I wrote the other post I admit I was thinking of a lot of nonmetal acts that are much newer. But there's plenty of metal that is first rate now. The last three years have had albums I'd say are as good as any classic by Arch/Matheos, Psychotic Waltz and Pharaoh. And there are good younger bands like Ruins of Beverast, Cobalt, Excalion, Arrayan Path, Horrendous, Blood Incantation, Cauldron Black Ram, etc. I guess a lot of these are somewhat old-ish now, in that they were formed in the 90s or early '00s, but that isn't the point to me... it's just that they're not the lionized 80s classics and I can enjoy em just the same anyway.
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Ill-Starred Son
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:29 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


That's nuts.

I think you haven't been paying attention.

Have you even heard the recent albums by bands like: Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Xoth, Of Feather and Bone, Necrophobic, Ulthar, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Fluids, Warp Chamber, Archspire, The Zenith Passage, Ripped to Shreds, Necrot, Exhumation, etc?

Some of them might have been 2019 or 2020 rather than 2021 but regardless, all these bands have had SICK recent releases and from this comment i very much doubt you've heard almost any of it.

If you have and you think most of this stuff sucks then either you don't like most extreme metal period or your taste is, shall we say, lacking...


I don't know why you're even bothering with him here. People confuse unpopular opinions with half-baked uninformed opinions. He obviously knows nothing of these bands or has not given them a fair chance. This opinion is exactly the contrarian trolling I was talking about a few pages back. I don't mind people having unpopular opinios, but damn, you have to be pretty damn intellectually dishonest to say that "Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks." It's complete bs. Not worth the effort you put into replying to him. Solid list of bands though.



Yeah, you are totally right.

I was thinking after I wrote the comment that either he's just being a troll, or quite likely, he just hasn't kept current with what's going on in the world of metal and feels somewhat intimidated by the sheer number of bands out there or possibly some way "lesser than" some of us for having stayed current, and because he knows it won't be easy for him to catch up and isn't knowledgable about the current scene he'd rather go the "all current bands suck" route.

I've known people do it before.

They once took pride in themselves knowing about the scene and at some point stopped keeping up and felt defensive about it.

If that is the case, it's not even something to be defensive about. I mean there's far too many bands out there for any of us to keep up with all of it, but we try more than some. Of course, this is pure speculation, but yeah, anyone saying that any and all metal in the past 20 years sucks is either totally ignorant, trolling, or both.

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Ill-Starred Son
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 1224
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:31 pm 
 

Bushido wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


Do you just not like those subgenres or are there other albums in that style that you prefer?

I have over 700 CDs from those 2 genres. Mostly from the 1990s and 2000s. I don’t need to play pretend that there’s another 50 to 100 albums released this year in those genres from various best of 2021 lists that are worth my time.


There's a whole lot that's worth your time that's been released within the past year, and certainly within the past 2 years, but you (or maybe it was another poster you agreed with) said the past TWENTY years.

You are either ignorant of the scene and feeling defensive so saying it all sucks, or trolling.

I have over 3,000 cds and probably over 1,000 downloads, and yet there's still far too much coming out that's good for me to keep up with, and yes, quite a few excellent album released in the past year or two that you would probably like and simply haven't heard at all.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2929
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:40 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Yeah, you are totally right.

I was thinking after I wrote the comment that either he's just being a troll, or quite likely, he just hasn't kept current with what's going on in the world of metal and feels somewhat intimidated by the sheer number of bands out there or possibly some way "lesser than" some of us for having stayed current, and because he knows it won't be easy for him to catch up and isn't knowledgable about the current scene he'd rather go the "all current bands suck" route.

I've known people do it before.

They once took pride in themselves knowing about the scene and at some point stopped keeping up and felt defensive about it.

If that is the case, it's not even something to be defensive about. I mean there's far too many bands out there for any of us to keep up with all of it, but we try more than some. Of course, this is pure speculation, but yeah, anyone saying that any and all metal in the past 20 years sucks is either totally ignorant, trolling, or both.


I know what you mean. These scenes have evolved a lot over the years, and if you don't keep up with the changes, the scene might be a little too different from what it used to be when you knew more about it, and it can be overwhelming. That's something I've seen commonly with older metalheads who couldn't keep up with an ever evolving and expanding scene, and instead of just taking an humble and more open-minded stance in regards to the evolution of the scene, become defensive and bitch about everything that isn't Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Metallica. They're easy to spot because they have common saying like "Modern metal is shit" or "Metal has not been good since 1984" or something along those lines :P

It's a weird and very self-centered intellectual stance to be able to look at a list of 50+ albums released over the year and generally considered as the best releases of the genre by fellow metalheads and go "Yeah, I don't like these, therefore everybody else's tastes are wrong, and I'm the only one who truly understands how bad these records are."

Again, I don't mind "unpopular opinions"... but Jesus, these kinds of statements always baffle me...

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Bushido
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:38 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:29 pm 
 

Ill-Starred Son wrote:
Bushido wrote:
Pretty much every Death & Black metal album I’ve seen so far on 2021 lists of bests albums is sucks. Don’t know why fans of those genres listen to such crap.


That's nuts.

I think you haven't been paying attention.

Have you even heard the recent albums by bands like: Black Curse, Cauldron Black Ram, Xoth, Of Feather and Bone, Necrophobic, Ulthar, Caustic Wound, Pissgrave, Fluids, Warp Chamber, Archspire, The Zenith Passage, Ripped to Shreds, Necrot, Exhumation, etc?

Some of them might have been 2019 or 2020 rather than 2021 but regardless, all these bands have had SICK recent releases and from this comment i very much doubt you've heard almost any of it.

If you have and you think most of this stuff sucks then either you don't like most extreme metal period or your taste is, shall we say, lacking...

I pay an insane amount of attention. It’s so easy to check out huge amounts of bands now with YouTube and Spotify. Yet Archspire is the only one you mentioned I’ve heard of. There’s only so much time to check out everyone’s list of recommendations from the underground.

And I said most of my Death Metal & Black Metal CDs is from the 90s and 2000s. So more like the past 10 years it mostly all started to suck IMO, not the last 20 years. I don’t like Atmospheric or Shoegaze Black Metal (not even metal IMO) or modern boring styles of death metal like the cavernous, doom, or dissonant. Some tech Death is good like Archspire and Rivers Of Nihil. I dislike 80s metal, Power metal, Opeth, and modern Death & Black Metal. I like death and black metal from the 90s and 2000s, groove metal, and lots of cool modern bands like Jinjer, Mastodon, and Born Of Osiris. Is this allowed?

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