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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:26 pm 
 

nephilim80 wrote:
- Female fronted metal (wtv the hell that is) started great in the 90s (The Gathering, ToT, Tristania, The 3rd and the Mortal, early-Nightwish, early-Lacuna Coil), took a turn in 00s (late-Nightwish, Epica, WT), and ended up being atrocious. Shit like Delain, Nocturna, Amaranth, Dremora.. even the latest Epica and Lacuna Coil are totally style over substance.


Female-fronted metal is not a genre. It's a way to describe something that is still relatively rare in metal. Trying to find something they all have in common in terms of musicality, beside the vocalist being a woman, is impossible. Therefore trying to assert the quality of all female-fronted metal bands is like trying to find something common to all bands who have a left-handed guitarist. It doesn't mean anything.

There are good and bad metal bands fronted by women, as there are good and bad metal bands fronted by men.

Garbage symphonic pop metal like Amaranthe doesn't have gender. It's just garbage.

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Lagartija
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:52 pm 
 

Basically it looks like he's referring to the Gothic stuff. Want some good 'female-fronted metal'? Check out Sacrilege, Detente, Holy Moses, Smoulder, Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult, Lovebites...
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:54 pm 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
With the success of Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation, and Nightwish, I think there began this association between bands with a female vocalist with "catchy, commercial symphonic/alternative metal/rock with a pretty lady singer" when really the descriptor could cover anything from Ava Inferi to Abnormality.


I think what really blew the door off was Arch Enemy discovering Gossow, when people realized it didn't even have to be the most commercial sound possible.

TheUnhinged wrote:
Plus, there is been a huge surge of stoner/sludge/doom bands with female vocalists as well (Windhand, Messa, Chrch, King Woman, Witch Mountain, just to list off a handful), all of which have insanely heavy riffs and amazing vocals.


It's also becoming the golden age of collaborations, with Converge/Chelsea Wolfe, Thou/Emma Ruth Rundle, Cult of Luna/Julie Christmas, Neurosis/Jarboe, even Stephen Brodsky/Marissa Nadler, though it isn't metal. Contrasting tonal shades have always fascinated me (probably part of why I've always been into melodeath), and the sludgy band juxtaposed with more ethereal vocal pairing seems to have become fertile ground lately, though I don't know if it's a bubble that will last.

HeavenDuff wrote:
nephilim80 wrote:
- Female fronted metal (wtv the hell that is) started great in the 90s (The Gathering, ToT, Tristania, The 3rd and the Mortal, early-Nightwish, early-Lacuna Coil), took a turn in 00s (late-Nightwish, Epica, WT), and ended up being atrocious. Shit like Delain, Nocturna, Amaranth, Dremora.. even the latest Epica and Lacuna Coil are totally style over substance.


Female-fronted metal is not a genre. It's a way to describe something that is still relatively rare in metal. Trying to find something they all have in common in terms of musicality, beside the vocalist being a woman, is impossible. Therefore trying to assert the quality of all female-fronted metal bands is like trying to find something common to all bands who have a left-handed guitarist. It doesn't mean anything.


Well, I don't think anyone has said it's a "genre". It's just a tag or descriptor, or sometimes just advertising jargon. You could also say "downtuned metal", "saxophone metal", "HM2 metal", and it doesn't inherently tell you much about the genre either, but it does generally denote a particular sonic quality that some people tend to be drawn to, which is certainly the case for me.

HeavenDuff wrote:
Garbage symphonic pop metal like Amaranthe doesn't have gender. It's just garbage.


They're a lot of things, but there's nothing symphonic about them. There are things about their sound that bug me, but I do have an affinity for some of their material, although that's definitely an unpopular opinion here. Elize's vocals, Olof's solos, and Morten's drumming in particular to me give them value.


Last edited by LithoJazzoSphere on Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lagartija
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:58 pm 
 

I can't stand King Diamond's vocals and they totally prevent me from listening to both bands (which is a fucking bummer).
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Sounds like a bunch of wank-off hipster shit to me.

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:50 pm 
 

Turn Up The Night is the weakest song the Dio lineup of Sabbath ever penned and one of the least impressive openers of any classic album that I can think of. I'd rate Mob Rules in the mid 90s were I to review it for the main site, but my goodness does it ever start with a damp squib. The E5150/title track pairing would have been a much better way to open the album.

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markhebb
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Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:32 am
Posts: 252
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:16 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Turn Up The Night is the weakest song the Dio lineup of Sabbath ever penned and one of the least impressive openers of any classic album that I can think of. I'd rate Mob Rules in the mid 90s were I to review it for the main site, but my goodness does it ever start with a damp squib. The E5150/title track pairing would have been a much better way to open the album.


People are strange......it's a banger. Not as much of a banger as Neon Knights....but no mere pale imitiation either...

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Slater922
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:19 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
I can't stand King Diamond's vocals and they totally prevent me from listening to both bands (which is a fucking bummer).

Understandable, but for me personally, the vocals are more of a strong suit in the music. It gives him a more ghastly and inhuman personality in the tracks. Not to mention they can also be a bit melodic at times.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:07 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
I can't stand King Diamond's vocals and they totally prevent me from listening to both bands (which is a fucking bummer).

His Mercyful Fate style where he doesn't go falsetto all the damn time is all right. Otherwise, no, I totally agree with you.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:18 pm 
 

I think King Diamond is amazing, but then again there are other singers I can't get at all like anything Warrel Dane ever did.
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goetia_unreleased
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:35 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:09 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I think King Diamond is amazing, but then again there are other singers I can't get at all like anything Warrel Dane ever did.

I feel you there. It took me YEARS until I could finally get past Warrel Dane's vocals. Now I quite enjoy them.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:15 pm 
 

He just sounds like a dude who can't sing to me, and not in a good way.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:30 pm 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Turn Up The Night is the weakest song the Dio lineup of Sabbath ever penned and one of the least impressive openers of any classic album that I can think of. I'd rate Mob Rules in the mid 90s were I to review it for the main site, but my goodness does it ever start with a damp squib. The E5150/title track pairing would have been a much better way to open the album.


It's better than "Walk Away". But, yeah, otherwise, it's the second weakest song from those two albums. But it's all relative: it and "Walk Away" are still great!!

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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:31 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
He just sounds like a dude who can't sing to me, and not in a good way.


Who? King or Dane?
I think Dane is phenomenal....one of the better singers to ever grace metaldom. I also love King, but totally understand why so many do not. At times, he grates on me, too.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:00 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
He just sounds like a dude who can't sing to me, and not in a good way.


Dane got quite shrill later on. I liked Nevermore but Dane could be spotty at times.

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Dungeon_Vic
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:33 am 
 

Love both Dane and King, among my favorites. Niklas of Wolf told me that when he heard Refuge Denied he thought he heard the perfect metal vocals. The chorus to Genocide (KILLER TRACK) is a direct tribute to Termination Force's chorus. The intro incidentally was an *unconscious* tribute to Maiden's Genghis Khan! I don't know about *the* perfect but I totally get his point. The way he begins with "An army of vengeance invading from the sky" on Battle Angels just fucking rules.

King Diamond is the most notorious love/hate vocalist in metal. For the record, since 1990's The Eye, the falsettos are not as dominant and progressively used less in later releases.
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~Guest 334273
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:20 am 
 

Leprous's descent into prog rock has been one of the most disappointing career shifts in the decade: I'm all for experimentation but it's crazy that a band that made truly progressive, boundary pushing albums like The Congregation and Bilateral is content to make music as unengaging as the last two. Solberg's vocals in particular sound like a caricature of what he was.

Say what you want on Opeth's prog rock phase, but at least Åkerfeldt made some dramatic improvements in his vocal skills that only a deaf person can ignore

And in terms of career shifts: even if the last few ones aren't up to par Katationia's later "Porcupeth" phase is responsible for some of their best albums. The earlier ones are good but outclassed by the fantastic October Tide debut album and Viva Emptiness / Night Is the New Day are the ones i return to the most.

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colin040
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:23 am 
 

Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Turn Up The Night is the weakest song the Dio lineup of Sabbath ever penned and one of the least impressive openers of any classic album that I can think of. I'd rate Mob Rules in the mid 90s were I to review it for the main site, but my goodness does it ever start with a damp squib. The E5150/title track pairing would have been a much better way to open the album.


Oh yeah, I forgot about this one; Mob Rules doesn't exactly rules! I could never get into it much and would rather listen to Heaven and Hell or Dehumanizer for my Dio-era-Sabbath fix. :)

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Zdan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:28 am 
 

In_Zane wrote:
The only good Anthrax vocalist was Neil Turbin.


I love me some of Anthrax's debut. One amazing album that one. But if we are going for Unpopular Metal Opinion (TM) - although it might turn out not so unpopular - I would say that John Bush is the best singer Anthrax ever had. It just sucked that they got lost on the way to Alternativeville. If you want to see Bush's chops check out some classic Armored Saint. He blows both Belladonna and Turbin away as a singer.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:30 am 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
He just sounds like a dude who can't sing to me, and not in a good way.


Who? King or Dane?
I think Dane is phenomenal....one of the better singers to ever grace metaldom. I also love King, but totally understand why so many do not. At times, he grates on me, too.


Dane... just not my kind of singing I guess. King I think is great. I think I've mostly come down on the side of my tastes in unconventional singers to be as over the top and reedy sounding as possible.
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~Guest 285196
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:56 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
Cosmic_Equilibrium wrote:
Turn Up The Night is the weakest song the Dio lineup of Sabbath ever penned and one of the least impressive openers of any classic album that I can think of. I'd rate Mob Rules in the mid 90s were I to review it for the main site, but my goodness does it ever start with a damp squib. The E5150/title track pairing would have been a much better way to open the album.


Oh yeah, I forgot about this one; Mob Rules doesn't exactly rules! I could never get into it much and would rather listen to Heaven and Hell or Dehumanizer for my Dio-era-Sabbath fix. :)

Heaven and Hell is more consistent than Mob Rules for sure. There are some less-than-great songs on there, but I still can't imagine my life without Falling Off the Edge of the World, the title track, Voodoo or Country Girl.

I usually listen to Mob Rules after Heaven and Hell, so it's always a bit jarring to go from the slow and bluesy Lonely Is the Word to the upbeat borderline pop metal song Turn Up the Night!

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:58 am 
 

Always puzzling to see people not liking Mob Rules. It feels like you should like that one if you like H&H - personally I put em both almost at the same level of quality. H&H is a bit better because of "Children of the Sea" and the title song, but not a wide gulf.
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~Guest 285196
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:03 am 
 

It's just pure difference in quality of songwriting, riff by riff or song by song. Heaven and Hell is damn near perfect, with only Lady Evil making the skip bottom look tempting. I think Mob Rules has a cooler less dated sound and production though, and I certainly wouldn't give it anything less than 90%. I'm only comparing it to the other Dio albums.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:05 am 
 

raumr wrote:
It's just pure difference in quality of songwriting, riff by riff or song by song. Heaven and Hell is damn near perfect, with only Lady Evil making the skip bottom look tempting. I think Mob Rules has a cooler less dated sound and production though, and I certainly wouldn't give it anything less than 90%. I'm only comparing it to the other Dio albums.


"Lady Evil" has actually always been a standout for me. And yeah Mob Rules does have the pointless instrumental track, while H&H showed that Sabbath didn't really need those. But yeah I like almost all the actual songs on both really well. "Country Girl" off Mob Rules is so fucking great.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:30 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
raumr wrote:
It's just pure difference in quality of songwriting, riff by riff or song by song. Heaven and Hell is damn near perfect, with only Lady Evil making the skip bottom look tempting. I think Mob Rules has a cooler less dated sound and production though, and I certainly wouldn't give it anything less than 90%. I'm only comparing it to the other Dio albums.


"Lady Evil" has actually always been a standout for me. And yeah Mob Rules does have the pointless instrumental track, while H&H showed that Sabbath didn't really need those. But yeah I like almost all the actual songs on both really well. "Country Girl" off Mob Rules is so fucking great.


Glad to see the love for "Lady Evil" and "Country Girl", as I find both to be near perfect tunes.
"Over and Over" is another absolute crushing, killer songs. Even the lyrics are great.

You cant compliment the might Sabbath enough.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:38 am 
 

They may be the band with the longest span of quality albums I can think of, even though there are a few in there that aren't very good too - but they always came back fighting.
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~Guest 285196
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:52 am 
 

I think it is simply because through all the years and changes, they had Iommi standing at the center producing the riffs. He is the red thread that connects all the albums. Even some of the obscure ones like Seventh Star or Born Again have become dear to me. The only album I genuinely can't remember unless I just listened to it is Forbidden.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:02 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
Leprous's descent into prog rock has been one of the most disappointing career shifts in the decade: I'm all for experimentation but it's crazy that a band that made truly progressive, boundary pushing albums like The Congregation and Bilateral is content to make music as unengaging as the last two. Solberg's vocals in particular sound like a caricature of what he was.


Leprous doesn't seem to have every "really" considered themselves a metal band. They always had elements of rock and metal in their sound, focusing more on the progressive part of their sound. I liked Pitfalls, as even if it toyed with more pop elements, managed to have a lot of contrast with heavier or high energy tracks. I don't really mind them focusing less on metal, as long as the music feels fresh and contrasted like it was on Malina and Pitfalls. But Aphelion is the first of their albums that really failed to stick with me. I've given it quite a few listens, and outside of a few great tracks, the overall feeling of the album has not made a big impression on me. So I agree with you on that.

As for Solberg's vocals, I disagree. The man is still obviously very talented. Some of his vocals are way too pop for my tastes, but he still show a lot of range, even on Leprous records, and his featurings on albums by Voyager, Ihsahn and Haken over the last few years have shown that he can still do all sorts of vocals.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:42 pm 
 

On the latest Heaven and Hell / Mob Rules discussion....

I've always thought Turn Up the Night is a great opener, but I can see why others might think it's not up to par. For me what elevates it are all the intermittent guitar leads Iommi does throughout. Without those my opinion on the song would probably be lower. Do agree the song isn't as good as Neon Knights, but that's not a slight. Neon Knights will always have a special place in my heart, as the Live Evil version was the very first vocal-Dio-Sabbath song I ever heard (E5150 is the first track on the album so I heard that one first), and not only that, but I had never heard or even heard OF the singer Ronnie James Dio at that point. Live Evil was my second ever Sabbath album (after Paranoid), before the 97 reunion and I didn't have Internet access yet so I wasn't very knowledgable on the band at all, never even knew they had any other singers than Ozzy. Neon Knights came on, I was like, "Hey this isn't Ozzy, who is that? Well it's pretty fucking cool anyway!" :lol: I am so grateful I happened to pick up that album before the 97 reunion as I think it helped me avoid all the "No Ozzy, no Sabbath" brainwashing that ensued.

I'm digging the repping of Country Girl. For a long time I've thought that was an extremely underrated song.... That main riff is classic Iommi. Voodoo is also a great song. One of the catchiest riffs Iommi ever wrote.

The weakest Dio-Sabbath song.... I'd probably say Slipping Away, but Walk Away would probably be 2nd.... Don't think I can nominate anything from Dehumanizer for this category. I used to think Buried Alive wasn't great but over the last few years revisiting it has made me appreciate it a lot more. Of course this "weakest Dio-Sabbath song" is leaving out The Devil You Know which is by a country mile the worst Dio-Sabbath album if you consider it a Sabbath album, which I do..... If we include this album, Rock and Roll Angel and Turn of the Screw stop the album dead for me.

Which is better between Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules? I think my preference is slightly in Mob Rules but it's essentially a toss-up. Both all time classics. Kind of disheartening how Mob Rules is often considered significantly weaker than Heaven and Hell, tbh.

EDIT: just thought of a Dehumanizer nomination for worst Dio-Sabbath song: Time Machine. Chorus is a bit too poppy and they did the heavy chugging thing much better elsewhere on the album, such as TV Crimes.

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:52 pm 
 

Country Girl is indeed one of the most underrated Sabbath songs from that era, an absolutely classic Iommi riff.

It's a coin toss between MR and H&H in my book. H&H maybe has slightly higher points but MR has a somewhat mystical aura to it and is a bit more edgy and dark.

Time Machine isn't that great I agree, possibly the weakest song off Dehumanizer. TDYK does have problems with some less memorable material here and there, but the high points are seriously good.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:15 pm 
 

Over the years I've come to put Mob Rules (slightly) above Heaven & Hell, though they're both near-perfect. I just love the punchier, grittier sound of Mob Rules. It's definitely a heavier sounding album. Iommi's guitars are loud and crunchy, and Dio starts to sound more aggressive (title track), while still bringing all of the mystical magic he was by then known for (Sign of the Southern Cross, Falling Off the Edge of the World, Over and Over). I've also always maintained that the Dio era simply has some of Iommi's best guitar-work*, which is all the more impressive when you consider the fact he pretty much entirely changed his style to accommodate Dio's voice. Some of his leads on Mob Rules are perfection, like the way Over and Over just fades out with these blistering solos that I imagine just going on and on into eternity.

Totally agree about Country Girl -- kinda dumb lyrics, but amazing song. I also unfortunately agree that the opener's a bit weak. The album totally should have opened with the title track (and this is something Heaven and Hell inarguably has over Mob Rules, since Neon Knights is a bulletproof classic).

*I'm no guitar player, so I'm admittedly talking out my ass a little here, but that's still how I've always felt.

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~Guest 334273
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:26 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Morn Of Solace wrote:
Leprous's descent into prog rock has been one of the most disappointing career shifts in the decade: I'm all for experimentation but it's crazy that a band that made truly progressive, boundary pushing albums like The Congregation and Bilateral is content to make music as unengaging as the last two. Solberg's vocals in particular sound like a caricature of what he was.


Leprous doesn't seem to have every "really" considered themselves a metal band. They always had elements of rock and metal in their sound, focusing more on the progressive part of their sound. I liked Pitfalls, as even if it toyed with more pop elements, managed to have a lot of contrast with heavier or high energy tracks. I don't really mind them focusing less on metal, as long as the music feels fresh and contrasted like it was on Malina and Pitfalls. But Aphelion is the first of their albums that really failed to stick with me. I've given it quite a few listens, and outside of a few great tracks, the overall feeling of the album has not made a big impression on me. So I agree with you on that.

As for Solberg's vocals, I disagree. The man is still obviously very talented. Some of his vocals are way too pop for my tastes, but he still show a lot of range, even on Leprous records, and his featurings on albums by Voyager, Ihsahn and Haken over the last few years have shown that he can still do all sorts of vocals.


I held for quite long time Malina in low regard because after a monster like The Congregation i wasn't really expecting a sudden shift towards softer sounds, but i don't dislike that one. It was more half of Pitfalls and then Aphelion that totally lost me, i gave them a good number of listens but nothing... It seems they are slowly stripping down one by one the fun elements that i liked about them, and i'm not interested in following them trough that road. A pity, because when i check them out i'm like "damn, those guys wrote a song like Third Law..."

By the way i'm not really questioning Solberg's talent, his range and control seem even improved in the last years: the thing i don't really like is the over-reliance on those "emotional falsetto" vocals of the last albums. I feel he used them in a way more tasteful way on the older material and made for great musical climaxes, but with some new songs they feel at times quite campy no matter how well executed.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:35 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Morn Of Solace wrote:
Leprous's descent into prog rock has been one of the most disappointing career shifts in the decade: I'm all for experimentation but it's crazy that a band that made truly progressive, boundary pushing albums like The Congregation and Bilateral is content to make music as unengaging as the last two. Solberg's vocals in particular sound like a caricature of what he was.


Leprous doesn't seem to have every "really" considered themselves a metal band. They always had elements of rock and metal in their sound, focusing more on the progressive part of their sound. I liked Pitfalls, as even if it toyed with more pop elements, managed to have a lot of contrast with heavier or high energy tracks. I don't really mind them focusing less on metal, as long as the music feels fresh and contrasted like it was on Malina and Pitfalls. But Aphelion is the first of their albums that really failed to stick with me. I've given it quite a few listens, and outside of a few great tracks, the overall feeling of the album has not made a big impression on me. So I agree with you on that.

As for Solberg's vocals, I disagree. The man is still obviously very talented. Some of his vocals are way too pop for my tastes, but he still show a lot of range, even on Leprous records, and his featurings on albums by Voyager, Ihsahn and Haken over the last few years have shown that he can still do all sorts of vocals.


I held for quite long time Malina in low regard because after a monster like The Congregation i wasn't really expecting a sudden shift towards softer sounds, but i don't dislike that one. It was more half of Pitfalls and then Aphelion that totally lost me, i gave them a good number of listens but nothing... It seems they are slowly stripping down one by one the fun elements that i liked about them, and i'm not interested in following them trough that road. A pity, because when i check them out i'm like "damn, those guys wrote a song like Third Law..."

By the way i'm not really questioning Solberg's talent, his range and control seem even improved in the last years: the thing i don't really like is the over-reliance on those "emotional falsetto" vocals of the last albums. I feel he used them in a way more tasteful way on the older material and made for great musical climaxes, but with some new songs they feel at times quite campy no matter how well executed.


Yes, I get what you mean. That's also kind of what I meant when I said I didn't like that he focused more and more on "pop" vocals in the more recent albums. So I guess we agree on that too.

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GratefulDeadInside
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:13 pm 
 

The less "trve kvlt" a black metal album is the better it is.
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jgarci12
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:09 pm 
 

Lady Evil is easily the best track from H&H to me

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:20 pm 
 

GratefulDeadInside wrote:
The less "trve kvlt" a black metal album is the better it is.


It's okay not to like black metal, but come on...

Image

come on...

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come on...

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The world wouldn't be as beautiful as it is without trve black metal. I rest my case.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's also becoming the golden age of collaborations, with Converge/Chelsea Wolfe, Thou/Emma Ruth Rundle, Cult of Luna/Julie Christmas, Neurosis/Jarboe, even Stephen Brodsky/Marissa Nadler, though it isn't metal. Contrasting tonal shades have always fascinated me (probably part of why I've always been into melodeath), and the sludgy band juxtaposed with more ethereal vocal pairing seems to have become fertile ground lately, though I don't know if it's a bubble that will last.


Pretty much every single one of these collaborations is better than what those bands normally do imo, especially Converge and Thou. Bands pursuing that sound like Frayle, Mammoth Weed Wizard Bastard, and Messa are also some of the best going right now. I'm all for the yelly boi sludgecore + spooky girl combo, I like to call Bjork metal.
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Yuli Ban
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:59 pm 
 

Not my own opinion but someone else's: heavy metal didn't truly begin until Metallica. Their reasoning isn't as dumb as it sounds but it's still pretty dumb: basically everything before thrash metal "wasn't really metal" but just metallic hard rock.

Conversely, I've also heard that extreme metal isn't really metal either and that "metal" only includes the traditional genres; extreme metal is its own thing and should've been called something different.

And yes, thrash metal is the crossover point.

It all comes back to thrash!

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:08 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
It's also becoming the golden age of collaborations, with Converge/Chelsea Wolfe, Thou/Emma Ruth Rundle, Cult of Luna/Julie Christmas, Neurosis/Jarboe, even Stephen Brodsky/Marissa Nadler, though it isn't metal. Contrasting tonal shades have always fascinated me (probably part of why I've always been into melodeath), and the sludgy band juxtaposed with more ethereal vocal pairing seems to have become fertile ground lately, though I don't know if it's a bubble that will last.


Pretty much every single one of these collaborations is better than what those bands normally do imo, especially Converge and Thou. Bands pursuing that sound like Frayle, Mammoth Weed Wizard Bastard, and Messa are also some of the best going right now. I'm all for the yelly boi sludgecore + spooky girl combo, I like to call Bjork metal.


Hold on. Cult of Luna and Neurosis are pillars of post-metal and sludge metal. These collaboration records are all good, of course, but you really think that CoL's self-titled, Salvation, Somewhere Along the Highway, Souls at Zero, Enemy of the Sun, Though Silver in Blood or Times of Grace are weaker then these footnotes collaborations? How?

I'm also not a big Converge fan myself, but their album Jane Doe is a pivotal record for hardcore punk/metalcore of the 2000's.

These aren't just stellar records, they are also the foundations of their respective genres. In comparison, these collaborations are footnotes.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:25 pm 
 

I mean, this is an unpopular opinion thread so there's that. I probably should've gone for more subjective wording on my part.

I will concede that I do thoroughly enjoy Neurosis and Cult of Luna is a consistently good band, that last EP was really good and I'm looking forward to hearing the new album when it's out. My biggest nitpick with the latter is that I really can't tell any of their albums apart, I could certainly stand to listen to them deeper but it just ends up sounding the same to me when it's so hard to trace the overall trajectory. Having Julie Christmas on an album is going to make it the most unique by default because of how unhinged she gets. I just get bored with post metal dudes whose only vocal styles are BURLY YELLING and gravelly whispering.

As for Converge, that's definitely a taste thing on my part. I just don't like that much hardcore-derived stuff so I can *appreciate* them for their influence and scope more than I *like* them. I'm also a fan of Chelsea Wolfe's solo work so having the collaboration focus on those aspects of it considerably more is much more palatable to my personal taste.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:34 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
I'm also a fan of Chelsea Wolfe's solo work so having the collaboration focus on those aspects of it considerably more is much more palatable to my personal taste.


Yes, this is also my preference. Converge even went for a more post-metal/sludgecore approach on their collaborative effort with Chelsea Wolfe, so yeah, in terms of taste alone, I do prefer this kind of effort.

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