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Oxenkiller
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:07 am 
 

It IS my unpopular metal opinion, I guess.

I go by which bands came first and which inspired entire genres. That's why I had Priest before Maiden and Mercyful Fate (They had the earlier album release) and Dio started out with Sabbath and Rainbow, hence in a way he was already included. Celtic Frost and Death were influenced by Venom who came by earlier. Exodus were around before even Metallica was, and started off playing thrash right at about the same time. I've argued before that they originally should have been included in the Big 4 over Anthrax, at least back in 1984-1986 they were more well known and bigger than either Anthrax of Megadeth, perhaps even Slayer. (But obviously by 1988/89 that was no longer the case.) Maiden, Mercyful Fate, Death, etc are clearly among the most influential bands either way no matter how you look at it.

So anyway, that was my reasoning.

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MetlaNZ
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 1529
Location: Lost in Necropolis
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:24 am 
 

^When was the term "Big 4" first used? Surely not until sometime in the later half of the 80's? I'm really curious as to when and who used the term first.

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66samhain
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:23 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:00 am 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
relatively weaker tracks [...] On Mob Rules, it's the last three.


Good fucking god, really???? Slipping Away I can understand. but fucking Falling Off the Edge of the World????????? HOW??????? Over and Over rules too.


I agree, Over and Over is my all-time favourite Sabbath song, really doomy and powerful, I don't know how anyone could call it a weak track, but to each their own.
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anamelessghoul
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:38 am
Posts: 20
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:49 am 
 

1st wave black metal sucks. I had to say it

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draconiondevil
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:21 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:53 am 
 

Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 7289
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:06 pm 
 

anamelessghoul wrote:
1st wave black metal sucks. I had to say it

As in "black metal" like Venom? Nah, that's the only kind of "black metal" that doesn't suck.
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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
Posts: 1268
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:10 pm 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.


No but I would say it's, on average, faster. Thrash beats generally sound faster than blast beats. If you blast too fast, it starts to sound like slow motion and it loses some forward momentum.

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In_Zane
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:04 pm 
 

anamelessghoul wrote:
1st wave black metal sucks. I had to say it

As in Venom, Sodom, Bathory, and Kreator?

Hahahahahaha...

Oh wait, you're serious? Let me laugh even harder!

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:28 pm 
 

1. Grindcore is the best extreme metal subgenre.

2. Metal is better in general if it's slow or mid tempo like 90's groove.

3. I have yet to see any good black metal.

4. Shout at the Devil > Nevermind
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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6912
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:33 pm 
 

anamelessghoul wrote:
1st wave black metal sucks. I had to say it


Oh, piss of.

Zelkiiro wrote:
As in "black metal" like Venom? Nah, that's the only kind of "black metal" that doesn't suck.


Oh, piss off, too! :p

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Bingewolf
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 pm
Posts: 858
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:35 pm 
 

Power metal sucks, O'Doyle rules!!!

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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2710
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:44 pm 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
Power metal sucks, O'Doyle rules!!!


If we are talking about the majority of European-style power metal - agreed ;)

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Oxenkiller
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 3209
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:08 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
1. Grindcore is the best extreme metal subgenre.

.

4. Shout at the Devil > Nevermind


Agree with these...somewhat. Grindcore WAS the best extreme metal subgenre back in 1990/1991 but I got burned out on it pretty quickly after that, and I've heard way too many untalented, cliche'd bands attempting that style that have nothing to offer but incel lyrics, ridiculous vocals and crappy riffs.

"Shout at the Devil" was by far the best thing the Crue ever did and I still love that album today- even though I don't like anything they did after that. Nirvana was a good band and was a refreshing change from all the stale glam rock being churned out (including what Motley Crue were doing at the time) but... after all these years, I still enjoy "Shout at the Devil" more than "Nevermind."

I believe the term "Big 4" for thrash started roughly in 1987 or 1988 by one of the guys from Metal Forces magazine, but I could be wrong. The time frame- late 1980s- is about right though. By then Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax and Megadeth had separated from the pack in terms of record sales and popularity; Exodus should have been right up there with them but they had a few issues (Record label, personnel, etc.) after "Bonded By Blood" came out and they lost a lot of their early momentum.

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 1542
Location: Catalunya
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:36 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
Discharge to me would probably THE most influential band if we are talking about extreme music. Their early sound influenced a whole spectrum of music from thrash to hardcore punk, crust and even death metal (the first Entombed record and the d-beats there!) and maybe even some early black metal.

True, the dbeat and the totally caustic sound was definitely a major influence on everything that came after. To a lesser extent the other bigger Uk82 bands like The Exploited and GBH, plus New York hardcore, although more limited to thrash I suppose (although Quorthon for example was a big fan and, according to Mayhem's latest EP, so are they).
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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 1542
Location: Catalunya
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:40 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
1. Grindcore is the best extreme metal subgenre.

2. Metal is better in general if it's slow or mid tempo like 90's groove.

Interesting contradiction there...
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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2710
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:45 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
Zdan wrote:
Discharge to me would probably THE most influential band if we are talking about extreme music. Their early sound influenced a whole spectrum of music from thrash to hardcore punk, crust and even death metal (the first Entombed record and the d-beats there!) and maybe even some early black metal.

True, the dbeat and the totally caustic sound was definitely a major influence on everything that came after. To a lesser extent the other bigger Uk82 bands like The Exploited and GBH, plus New York hardcore, although more limited to thrash I suppose (although Quorthon for example was a big fan and, according to Mayhem's latest EP, so are they).


UK82 and GBH in particular would also be a big influence - that band has been brought up by all kinds of other bands - Tom Warrior and Peter from Vader are two examples. It is just that Discharge was even more influential - in terms of d-beat, the extreme sonical approach (bulldozer sounding guitars even compared to GBH) and general atmosphere. GBH sounded like a wild street brawl soundtrack and Discharge was the sound of the apocalypse, a steel-toe boot landing on the face of humanity in musical form. No wonder other extreme bands picked up on that.

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draconiondevil
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:21 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:55 pm 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.


No but I would say it's, on average, faster. Thrash beats generally sound faster than blast beats. If you blast too fast, it starts to sound like slow motion and it loses some forward momentum.


Death/thrash bands like Demolition Hammer, 1987-1991 Sepultura and Possessed are heavier than pure death metal a lot of the time. At least in my opinion.

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GratefulDeadInside
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
Posts: 130
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:10 pm 
 

Spiner202 wrote:
The most influential album is probably either Welcome to Hell or Black Metal. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Venom is the second most influential metal band after Sabbath. I do think someone else would have gone down the same path if Venom didn't, but their impact can't really be overstated.

Venom, Motorhead, and Black Sabbath are probably the 3 most influential metal bands in history

Black Sabbath practically created the genre, Motorhead made it faster and more aggressive, and Venom made it satanic.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:12 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
1. Grindcore is the best extreme metal subgenre.

2. Metal is better in general if it's slow or mid tempo like 90's groove.

Interesting contradiction there...

Not really? What I mean is that I was forced to listen to extreme metal instead of slow metal, I'd choose some grindcore over any of the other styles. I should have gone into more detail.
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GratefulDeadInside
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
Posts: 130
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:13 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
3. I have yet to see any good black metal.

You probably aren't looking hard enough. Black/Thrash and atmospheric BM are fucking amazing.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:15 pm 
 

GratefulDeadInside wrote:
LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
3. I have yet to see any good black metal.

You probably aren't looking hard enough. Black/Thrash and atmospheric BM are fucking amazing.

What albums do your recommend specifically?
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GratefulDeadInside
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
Posts: 130
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
GratefulDeadInside wrote:
LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
3. I have yet to see any good black metal.

You probably aren't looking hard enough. Black/Thrash and atmospheric BM are fucking amazing.

What albums do your recommend specifically?

For atmospheric black metal I'd recommend Nyrst and for black/thrash I'd recommend Desaster
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 31661
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:24 pm 
 

If you like metal and can't see any worth in Usurper, then I dunno what to tell you. Especially Diabolosis or Twilight Dominion.
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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2710
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:25 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
If you like metal and can't see any worth in Usurper, then I dunno what to tell you. Especially Diabolosis or Twilight Dominion.


I have a friend that is like that. He will not touch stuff like Usurper, Desaster, Aura Noir etc. He loves NWOBHM, classic heavy metal, USPM, speed metal, even some thrash but stuff has no patience for stuff like Usurper.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:28 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
If you like metal and can't see any worth in Usurper, then I dunno what to tell you. Especially Diabolosis or Twilight Dominion.


I have a friend that is like that. He will not touch stuff like Usurper, Desaster, Aura Noir etc. He loves NWOBHM, classic heavy metal, USPM, speed metal, even some thrash but stuff has no patience for stuff like Usurper.


I just meant that as part of the "BM sucks" thing. Usurper to me is like the best crossroads of BM with more accessible stuff, at least once you get beyond Venom and all that.
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Zdan
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:38 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Zdan wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
If you like metal and can't see any worth in Usurper, then I dunno what to tell you. Especially Diabolosis or Twilight Dominion.


I have a friend that is like that. He will not touch stuff like Usurper, Desaster, Aura Noir etc. He loves NWOBHM, classic heavy metal, USPM, speed metal, even some thrash but stuff has no patience for stuff like Usurper.


I just meant that as part of the "BM sucks" thing. Usurper to me is like the best crossroads of BM with more accessible stuff, at least once you get beyond Venom and all that.


Ah. Understood. Yeah I also point to stuff like Usurper, Desaster, Bewitched (Swe) if someone does not like "traditional" second wave BM and such.

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AcidWorm
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 3277
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:53 pm 
 

Walk with that riff is one of the most annoying songs I have ever heard.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 941
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:08 pm 
 

That is an unpopular opinion I can get behind.
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Radulfr
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:30 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:10 pm 
 

POPULAR opinion that is unpopular on this site:
-US """"Power Metal"""" is mostly garbage. I would much rather listen Rhapsody than Omen. And I say this as someone who can't stand Rhapsody.

-The best way to get someone into extreme metal is NOT through softer or more accessible hybrid style bands, instead you should choose the most "pure" and extreme albums of the genre. Wanna get into death metal? Listen to The Art Of War by Vader. Have a friend who is curious about black metal? Show him The Return...... by Bathory. (Not an unpopular opinion, just something I felt like saying)

Empyreal wrote:
If you like metal and can't see any worth in Usurper, then I dunno what to tell you. Especially Diabolosis or Twilight Dominion.

I really like Necronemesis, but didn't get into Twilight Dominion. At first glance it has a very cool sound, but it didn't captivate me for some reason. The production is kinda weak too. Maybe I should give it another try.

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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 1195
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:18 am 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
3. I have yet to see any good black metal.
What about this?:

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EvergreenSherbert
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:18 am 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.

Black metal sure. Death metal? Not sure if you've heard enough of it.
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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 6912
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:06 am 
 

draconiondevil wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.


No but I would say it's, on average, faster. Thrash beats generally sound faster than blast beats. If you blast too fast, it starts to sound like slow motion and it loses some forward momentum.


Death/thrash bands like Demolition Hammer, 1987-1991 Sepultura and Possessed are heavier than pure death metal a lot of the time. At least in my opinion.


I'd argue that albums like Pleasure to Kill, Reign in Blood, Darkness Descends and Epidemic of Violence sound far heavier and more extreme than early death metal albums such as Scream Bloody Gore or Leprosy. People should just stop calling Demolition Hammer thrash/death metal though...because they're not. :P

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joppek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 2271
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:29 am 
 

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
Not really? What I mean is that I was forced to listen to extreme metal instead of slow metal, I'd choose some grindcore over any of the other styles. I should have gone into more detail.


"extreme instead of slow" isn't a real choice - they are overlapping categories, or don't you think disembowelment counts as extreme metal?
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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2710
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:00 am 
 

Radulfr wrote:
POPULAR opinion that is unpopular on this site:
-US """"Power Metal"""" is mostly garbage. I would much rather listen Rhapsody than Omen. And I say this as someone who can't stand Rhapsody.


Those are FIGHTING words! ;)

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pressingtoplead13
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 602
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:03 am 
 

Hmmm play any thrash song you can find next to Infecting the Crypts by Suffocation and tell me which one sounds more extreme.

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draconiondevil
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:21 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:28 am 
 

lol ok my previous comment seems to have ruffled some feathers so let me clarify. I think that the most extreme thrash bands are heavier than the average death metal band. If you take an album like Beneath the Remains there's no question in my mind that it's heavier than what earlier death metal bands were doing at that time. I didn't mean my comment to be taken as "thrash is always heavier than death metal" or anything like that.

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
draconiondevil wrote:
Thrash metal is heavier than death metal and black metal.

Black metal sure. Death metal? Not sure if you've heard enough of it.


My listening report from last year proves that that's not true: https://www.last.fm/user/DraconionDevil ... eport/year

colin040 wrote:

I'd argue that albums like Pleasure to Kill, Reign in Blood, Darkness Descends and Epidemic of Violence sound far heavier and more extreme than early death metal albums such as Scream Bloody Gore or Leprosy. People should just stop calling Demolition Hammer thrash/death metal though...because they're not. :P


I'm not sure what part of that genre description for Demolition Hammer you disagree with, the thrash part or the death part, but to me they're pretty much the epitome of a band that merges the two styles. However, I would say that their style is firmly rooted in thrash.

pressingtoplead13 wrote:
Hmmm play any thrash song you can find next to Infecting the Crypts by Suffocation and tell me which one sounds more extreme.


Ok. I choose Beneath the Remains by Sepultura and it's heavier lmao

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des91
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 249
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:52 am 
 

I agree with the claim that a lot of Thrash is just as extreme as DM/BM but Suffocation on their first two albums is arguably the most extreme Metal can get imo.

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In_Zane
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:23 pm 
 

pressingtoplead13 wrote:
Hmmm play any thrash song you can find next to Infecting the Crypts by Suffocation and tell me which one sounds more extreme.

Mkay, I pick Pleasure to Kill by Kreator.
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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 320
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:24 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
It IS my unpopular metal opinion, I guess.

I go by which bands came first and which inspired entire genres. That's why I had Priest before Maiden and Mercyful Fate (They had the earlier album release) and Dio started out with Sabbath and Rainbow, hence in a way he was already included. Celtic Frost and Death were influenced by Venom who came by earlier. Exodus were around before even Metallica was, and started off playing thrash right at about the same time. I've argued before that they originally should have been included in the Big 4 over Anthrax, at least back in 1984-1986 they were more well known and bigger than either Anthrax of Megadeth, perhaps even Slayer. (But obviously by 1988/89 that was no longer the case.) Maiden, Mercyful Fate, Death, etc are clearly among the most influential bands either way no matter how you look at it.

So anyway, that was my reasoning.


Yes, this is some pretty sound thinking overall, I can agree with this.

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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 320
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:26 pm 
 

In_Zane wrote:
pressingtoplead13 wrote:
Hmmm play any thrash song you can find next to Infecting the Crypts by Suffocation and tell me which one sounds more extreme.

Mkay, I pick Pleasure to Kill by Kreator.


Hobbs' Angel of Death, "Lucifer's Domain" (in fact the whole album). This maniacal thrash sounds positively unhinged whereas a lot of DM sounds very controlled.

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