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GoatBoat
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:33 am
Posts: 135
Location: Laos
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:03 pm 
 

My experience with other metalheads IRL, at least before the early 2010s, is that they tended to be at least left of center with some further left or right wing folks spattered around the place. But primarily liberal, I guess because the spirit of religious moralism loomed over society to a much larger degree. Nowadays, it's far more varied, but usually close to the center. I find there are a lot more mildly conservative people, but not a clear majority.

Most internet communities are different, though. They're often subject to a kind of social rot where whoever screams the loudest gets the most say, as the more chill people just don't want to be around them and either shut up or leave. So they tend to veer all around the place with all sorts of weird isolated shit that isn't representative of the scene at large, or even coherent enough to pin a "this is what internet metalheads believe" statement on any particular viewpoint.

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TheLoneForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:16 pm
Posts: 725
Location: Quebec
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:10 pm 
 

Hecatomb867 wrote:
TheLoneForest wrote:
Left

Modern conservatism is in no way, a right wing ideology. Anything that stems from Neoliberalism and the Enlightenment is inherently left wing

There really is no right wing anymore, aside from fringe political groups. Everything today is just various shades of left to center-left


I can't tell if this is a joke or you're just extraordinarily stupid.


Literally nobody here has clearly defined what left and right actually mean.

The Enlightenment was a left wing movement. Period. It was anti-Tory, wanted to remove the aristocracy and in most cases, the entire Monarchy as a whole. All forms of republicanism, which stemmed directly from the Enlightenment, is inherently left wing, because it destroys the concept of hierarchal power, organic systems and so on. It is inherently revolutionary. That is the fundamental idea of the right. It is keeping the established traditions of monarchical order and an organic society. Everything else is revolutionary.

"b-but MUH THATCHER AND REAGARINOS"

They were born out of the neoliberal mindset, which stemmed originally from classical liberal scholars like John Locke, Voltaire etc. Nationalism, Protectionism, Social Conservatism are not concepts that are monopolised by one side of the political spectrum. That's fucking stupid. You can be on the far left and have just as much Nationalist tendencies as any guy on the American Populist Right.

Again, I'll ask the dumbasses who think American politics is the end all, be all. Define for me, the left vs the right. Because until that is done, there is no conversation here.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 804
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:41 pm 
 

I think we shouldn't refer to Enlightenment as a left wing phenomena, that would be an anachronism. While some of its ideas gave birth to what most leftists defend, it's incorrect to label it as such. It was influential on that, for sure, but in that case, Plato and Thomas More could be considered left-wing too.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5384
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:29 pm 
 

The average metalhead over here in the Netherlands historically was left wing usually of the classic Labour style sort. I think this is pretty common across western Europe. This comes forward with quite a few older metal bands such as Saxon but also with a lot of early death metal bands. Part of the right wing tendencies of the 2nd wave can be explained as an attempt to distance themselves from previous leanings in metal.
That said while far right wing political views are more common in the black metal scene this is definitely far from a given.

However as people got older and in general the entire media and political landscape shifted to the right so have quite a few people shifted to the right. There are also those who still identify with the left wing but not with the more modern "American" versions of leftism like mister Walker of Solstice. Most of the people who are like this think that the focus on identity politics is a waste of time. They want a return to a focus on workers rights etc and feel disillusioned with the modern landscape.

In my experience people who identify as apolitical rarely actually are apolitical. Often they don't think about their own views or think that not partaking in the elections makes them apolitical. These people often have some degree of right wing and/or conservative views.

Lastly If i think about my own personal circle of friends/contacts in the community. Most of them vote for left wing parties with a couple exceptions who vote for the most right wing parties. Almost no one votes for the centre nor did they ever historically.

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AxeCapitol
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
Posts: 339
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:30 pm 
 

Slayer fans = right wing

Napalm Death fans = left wing

Dream Theatre fans = center (can go either ways)

How’s that for an intelligent generalization?

I’m a proud progressive left wing tree hugging pinko commie, but I love all 3 bands Equally FWIW.

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KaiKasparek
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:06 pm
Posts: 204
Location: Suomi Finland Bukkake
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:28 pm 
 

I feel like heavy metal was unequivocally and fraternally left wing til a bunch of pituitary retards grossly misunderstood the point of Slayer's Angel of Death.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:49 pm 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
Pretty much this. In my experience the more extreme metal genres such as black metal, and brutal death metal has had their fair share of right-wing extremists, but I don't really notice that so much now. It seemed more prominent 10 or 15 years ago. This forum used to have some right-wing extremists that filtered over from ANUS or deathmetal.org like 10 or 15 years ago as well. Now, I just feel like people's politics are all over the spectrum, and probably the same for other music genres. The way it should be in my opinion.

What's ANUS?
Space_alligator wrote:
One thing I've commonly seen is "don't bring politics into music!" Which i find gighly amusing since many a band had offered political commentary through their lyrics, even if they are not a "political band".

You can really see that attitude embodied here, even if it's not talking about political songs:

The attitude expressed here comes across as saying that musicians shouldn't be allowed to have opinions (To be clear, I don't agree with the viewpoints of Dave Mustaine. At all.).
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:12 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Left

Modern conservatism is in no way, a right wing ideology. Anything that stems from Neoliberalism and the Enlightenment is inherently left wing

There really is no right wing anymore, aside from fringe political groups. Everything today is just various shades of left to center-left


The right-left dichotomy is extremely limiting as it can be very difficult to situate specific notions such as individual freedom, freedom of press, free market, etc. as inherently right or left wing, but neoliberalism is definitely a right-wing ideology. If on paper it seems to be advocating for individual freedoms, gay rights, women's rights, indigenous rights, children's rights, etc., in practice neo-liberalism is extremely detrimental to people who have been historically discriminated against, it reproduces systems of oppression by promoting "non-interventionism", it continuously makes the gap between the rich and the poor grow bigger, and increases the wealth of the rich. Neo-liberalism allows for Western countries to continuously benefit from child labor across the world, because it encourages globalization, free market and deregulation in 3rd world countries through instances like the IMF. Neoliberalism strives on inequities, and this is by it's very definition, incompatible with left wing ideologies. Indigenous populations are suffering from neoliberalism as their land is getting owned and exploited by private corporations who destroy them, taint the water, destroy the natural habitat of millions of animals and drastically reduces biodiversity. The people who suffer the most from the climate crisis are the poor and the vulnerable, while those who are responsible for most CO2 emissions and

Neoconservatism, is basically neoliberalism, but with more restrictions of immigration, anti-choice rhetoric, climate change denial, subsidies to oil and coal corporations, restrictions on gay marriage, plain fuckin' transphobia and ​good ol' fashinoned sexism on top of it.

Both these ideologies are very obviously right-wing.


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:14 pm 
 

Terri23 wrote:
I was very left when I was younger. As I've gotten older, and with it garnered a successful career, with increased responsibilities, both in my personal life and professional life, I've found myself moving to the right of the centre.

This is very common. Also known as "fuck you got mine".

Quote:
The right is incredibly frowned upon here, and as such, I've generally avoided political discussions here, because you can't have political discussions anymore. Both sides are completely right with their respective views, and the other sides are idiots/out of touch/etc with no discussion.

The important thing is that you managed to feel superior to both
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AxeCapitol
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:19 pm 
 

If Blabbermouth comments are any legitimate metric, metal fans are at least 70% right leaning.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 950
Location: US
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:24 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
In my experience people who identify as apolitical rarely actually are apolitical. Often they don't think about their own views or think that not partaking in the elections makes them apolitical. These people often have some degree of right wing and/or conservative views.

Finally, somebody else is saying this.
LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
What's ANUS?

"American Nihilist Underground Society", also known as deathmetal.org. A community of pseudo-intellectuals who embody every trait of the stereotypical metal elitist. One of their number was present here at one point, and you can still find his reviews under the name "bitterman".
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:54 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
The Enlightenment was a left wing movement. Period. It was anti-Tory, wanted to remove the aristocracy and in most cases, the entire Monarchy as a whole. All forms of republicanism, which stemmed directly from the Enlightenment, is inherently left wing, because it destroys the concept of hierarchal power, organic systems and so on. It is inherently revolutionary. That is the fundamental idea of the right. It is keeping the established traditions of monarchical order and an organic society. Everything else is revolutionary.


If we insist on looking at political ideologies through the left and right spectrum, we have to understand that they aren't static. Left and right are relative to one another, they are contextual, historic, aka they change through time. Of course, if your understanding of right/left is that everything that is more progressive then 18th century monarchism is inherently left wing, we're going to have a problem. Because, well, yeah... of course, neoconservatism doesn't advocate the return to full on monarchism or slavery.

Left and right are not static, they exist in relationship to one another. For instance, a lot of the philosophers of The Enlightnenment were radically against women's rights. It was the case of Rousseau who wrote in great details in his book Emile, what the rights of men should be, and how incredibly and totally free they should be. However, in Sophie, Rousseau went to great extents about how women should remain in the private sphere, take care of their husband, and not be considered the equals of men. Having women be allowed to vote would have been a terrible thing for Rousseau.

Oh, and about John Locke. He wrote to great extents about how the land in North America should be taken by white men, as the savages who lived on the territory were not exploiting it to it's full potential. Locke basically wrote some of the most pro-colonialism and racist shit of his time.

Your understanding of the left/right spectrum is erronous because you make the mistake of thinking of The Enlightment as some kind of expression of radical leftism and completely revolutionary, while it wasn't. You also make the mistake of thinking of the political philosophers as the sole and leading force of political change, but they were not. There is a clear distinction between what was actually going on in the political world and what the philosophers were writing in their books and preaching for. The major changes in the political structures of the United Kingdom, for instance, were not lead by people who wanted universal suffrage, the end of slavery (a lot of Lords had slaves), or the end of child labor. No, they were just Lords, taking over parts of the political power that was previously focused in the ends of the monarch, bit by bit.

TheLoneForest wrote:
They were born out of the neoliberal mindset, which stemmed originally from classical liberal scholars like John Locke, Voltaire etc. Nationalism, Protectionism, Social Conservatism are not concepts that are monopolised by one side of the political spectrum. That's fucking stupid. You can be on the far left and have just as much Nationalist tendencies as any guy on the American Populist Right.


This is partially correct. Your understanding of left/right is wrong, mind you, but you are correct about the fact that protectionism and nationalism, for instance, are not inherently right or left. The justifications for these are what makes them right or left.

If you enforce protectionist laws to try and boost the wages for the workers, create jobs, develop expertize and autonomy (be it economic, technical, scientific, academic, etc.) to encourage local trade and the reduction of CO2 emissions and greehouse gas emissions because of transports, and to protect the job of your workers and limit exploitation of workers in 3rd world countries (cheap labor, relocation of jobs), then yeah, these are more left wing motives.

But if your justification for protectionism is to boost your economy on your own end, but in the meantime you pressure third world countries to deregulate their economy so you can do economic dumping in their country, destroy their local production and replace it with your own, like capitalistic corporations are doing, namely food corporations like Monsanto and Nestlea. This is very much right wing. If your motives for protectionism is to boost your economy, to use it to take over countries who don't have the ressources, economy, technical means or political means to compete, then yeah, that's pretty much right wing.


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:22 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
In my experience people who identify as apolitical rarely actually are apolitical. Often they don't think about their own views or think that not partaking in the elections makes them apolitical. These people often have some degree of right wing and/or conservative views.

Finally, somebody else is saying this.


This should be very obvious though. Everybody has political views, regardless of how well-informed they are, or how involved people are with these beliefs and how strongly they hold them. If people who "often have some degree of right wing and/or conservative views", often perceive themselves as apolitical, it's because they are usually quite comfortable with the status quo or with relatively minor social/political/economic changes. I'm pretty sure these people would realize they are actually quite political if there was an anarchist revolution or a fascist dictatorship taking over their country.

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
What's ANUS?

"American Nihilist Underground Society", also known as deathmetal.org. A community of pseudo-intellectuals who embody every trait of the stereotypical metal elitist. One of their number was present here at one point, and you can still find his reviews under the name "bitterman".[/quote]

I just went and looked into his profile and, damn, he is a bitter man alright. Jeez...

Quote:
Metal died in 1993. Only 12 good albums have been released since then (most of them in 1994, being already recorded by 1993). Metal achieved its creative peak in albums like Onward to Golgotha, Pure Holocaust, and The Red in the Sky is Ours, elevating the genre into a legitimate art form. Now, thanks to Slaughter of the Soul and Gojira, all its potential was squandered and the genre has been reduced into being mere gimmick ridden noise for drunk idiots (i.e. the lowest common denominator - stop trying to turn underground metal into AC/DC).


From his review of Death Crowned King - The Sum of Slaughter:

Quote:
This generic and crappy Krisiun-core reinforces my aversion toward bands that were made after 1993 whose names are comprised of more than 2 words. You get the pseudo-melodic dumbed down Morbid Angel riffs that mall music heroes Behemoth are known for churning out, but then you get the cheesy "melodic elements". These sound like tremolo picked metalcore melodies of The Black Dahlia Murder variety thrown in between death/grind "doobrbrbrbrbr jijijiji brbrbr chchchchbrch" riffs for "dynamics"

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:26 am 
 

If I ever see the word "muzak" again, then I'm punching a hole in a wall.
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GratefulDeadInside
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:13 am 
 

Personally, I operate under my own ideology, left-chris barnes thought-maoist-tom arayaism
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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:28 am 
 

Just to chime in - I read some of the reviews of that "bitterman" guy and....how is this crap on the Archives? This is some of the most pretentious, pseudo-intellectual babble I have ever read and really out there in terms of musical description too.

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GratefulDeadInside
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:50 am 
 

Shit was different back then I suppose. I'd say leave them up, they're way to funny to just banish from the site.
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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:55 am 
 

GratefulDeadInside wrote:
Shit was different back then I suppose. I'd say leave them up, they're way to funny to just banish from the site.


I mean...they sort of funny in cringe-inducing way I suppose? I just find them to be poorly written and without much merit as reviews.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:42 am 
 

Zdan wrote:
Just to chime in - I read some of the reviews of that "bitterman" guy and....how is this crap on the Archives? This is some of the most pretentious, pseudo-intellectual babble I have ever read and really out there in terms of musical description too.


I had the same reaction. These are very poor reviews, and the guy is so bitter (seriously, I find it hard to believe he is not a troll, especially with that user name) and intellectually dishonest to every single album he reviews, there really is no point in even reading them. He wrote 55 reviews, 54 of which with a score of 0%, and somehow he felt that one Kataklysm live record deserved at least a 50%.

The worst thing about this is that when you read the review, you notice that the guy actually did take the time to sit through the albums he's reviewed, at least once or twice, knowing he was going to hate them and give them a bad review. And he reviewed stuff up until rather recently too, like Blood Red Throne's s/t that came out in 2013. It really makes wou wonder what this guy is doing with his life. Going into new metal albums, even though he claims that everything released after 1993 in metal is shit. Why the hell would you still be listening to new metal releases 20 years later if you hate it all the same anyway...

Plus, his use of the word "muzak" is extra cringey.

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MDL
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:28 pm 
 

Those reviews titles are just too good

Image

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Speed Metal Terror
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Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:14 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:44 pm 
 

Okay, there's a few gems there.

"Ruined by cheering humans" made me laugh.
"Video game music WITHOUT the video game…" really does describe a lot of widdly tech-death.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:50 pm 
 

Tag yourself, I'm "as evil as a Scooby-Doo episode"
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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:00 pm 
 

These DO make you laugh or at least scratch your head but as reviews they are utterly useless and not written that well either.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:07 pm 
 

I find this kind of rigid conservatism and cultural puritanism to be extremely antitheical with metal music as a whole. This bitter man is just one example of this kind of mindset, but it's also quite common among some black metal circles, and it truly fascinates me from a political philosophy standpoint. They are people promoting a form of conservative revolution, as protection of tradition, even cultural ones, in a music that is everything but conservative.

Ultimately, just like conservatives in both academics and politics, they draw this very arbitrary line of where there has been enough changes, and where we should strive to go back to. It feels very strange to me to have people working so hard to keep black metal pure, white, satanic, isolated, while the genre is and always was, in essence, subversive.

I might disagree with the logics at hand, but I do understand them though. I know that they perceive their efforts not so much as "going back" but going forward "in the right direction". So they still perceive their art and political ideologies as subversive and revolutionnary, but often time in reaction to modernity and what they perceive as liberal shit tainting our culture.

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pyratebastard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:19 pm 
 

In my own experience, myself and my close friends who grew up together and got into metal together are all pretty progressively minded. We all grew up together in a small, poor town in the middle of the desert. We despise corrupt authority, and learned firsthand the important of social programs from a young age, in order to enable and empower the poorest of people. Most of my favorite thrash bands also espoused the same sort of feelings, ala Kreator, Sepultura, etc. I know there are some right-wing people in metal, and I generally avoid them. I'm sure they avoid me, too. I don't mind.
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pyratebastard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:21 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
If Blabbermouth comments are any legitimate metric, metal fans are at least 70% right leaning.


Nah, they're just the loudest and most obnoxious.
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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:23 pm 
 

The problem with metal is that some part of it is - essentially - musically conservative and escapist as far as lyrical content goes.

Take a look at traditional metal, USPM and the like. In essence what the new bands of those genres are doing is a retread of what once was, a nod to the "good old days" of metal music and such. Almost in all cases they remix influences and sounds but the result is something that is rigidly conservative musically. When it does not happen and even a small "new idea" pops out - in the case of Idle Hands/Unto Others - the band is seen as revolutionary. Of course that guy did not talk about traditional metal, speed metal etc. but the point still stands. There a whole chunk of metal that is conservative from a musical standpoint - at least now.

While I am not that well versed in the newer thrash acts I think the same could be said about them even if they are lyrically less escapist and more political - at least at times.

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GratefulDeadInside
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:40 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Zdan wrote:
and somehow he felt that one Kataklysm live record deserved at least a 50%.

Love the title of that one. "Ruined by cheering humans". Sounds like something a 15 year old kid way too into vampires and gothic attire would say.

Like, you were listening to a LIVE record, if you don't want "cheering humans" then listen to the albums.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:23 pm 
 

GratefulDeadInside wrote:
Love the title of that one. "Ruined by cheering humans". Sounds like something a 15 year old kid way too into vampires and gothic attire would say.

Like, you were listening to a LIVE record, if you don't want "cheering humans" then listen to the albums.


The stuff he writes is surreal, yet I still have a hard time figuring out if the guy really is like that, or if he's just a good troll. Some of the stuff is just too funny, and I have a hard time believing that it comes from a real place of hardcore bitterness and cynicism. Imagining that this stuff comes from a genuine and passionnate hate for everything metal released after 1993 is just too sad and depressing for me. I have a hard time understanding how someone can go through life like this.

Zdan wrote:
The problem with metal is that some part of it is - essentially - musically conservative and escapist as far as lyrical content goes.

Take a look at traditional metal, USPM and the like. In essence what the new bands of those genres are doing is a retread of what once was, a nod to the "good old days" of metal music and such. Almost in all cases they remix influences and sounds but the result is something that is rigidly conservative musically. When it does not happen and even a small "new idea" pops out - in the case of Idle Hands/Unto Others - the band is seen as revolutionary. Of course that guy did not talk about traditional metal, speed metal etc. but the point still stands. There a whole chunk of metal that is conservative from a musical standpoint - at least now.

While I am not that well versed in the newer thrash acts I think the same could be said about them even if they are lyrically less escapist and more political - at least at times.


Musical conservatism doesn't necessarly come from political conservatism though. Sure there are very traditionnal music genres that show a tendency to both, like country, but there are left leaning artists who play country music, just like you'll something find far-right bands in unlikely scenes like thrash or even punk.

There definitely are people who gravitate towards more traditionnal/musical conservative genres or who create music that is conservative out of conservative political views, though. It makes sense if you think about it.

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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:47 pm 
 

True but in the case of certain metal bands or even large swaths of the scene it is very hard to discern the political views of given bands. There is nothing that would indicate them in interviews either therefore musical conservatism is the only base we can discuss in that case.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:06 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
True but in the case of certain metal bands or even large swaths of the scene it is very hard to discern the political views of given bands. There is nothing that would indicate them in interviews either therefore musical conservatism is the only base we can discuss in that case.


But what would the point of that be, if I may ask? There is simply no way to establish a solid correlation between the two.

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Zdan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:10 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Zdan wrote:
True but in the case of certain metal bands or even large swaths of the scene it is very hard to discern the political views of given bands. There is nothing that would indicate them in interviews either therefore musical conservatism is the only base we can discuss in that case.


But what would the point of that be, if I may ask? There is simply no way to establish a solid correlation between the two.


My point in this was that some of the musical is not inherently subversive and in could be considered conservative on a purely musical front. So my point is - some metal is just not subversive.

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GratefulDeadInside
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
Posts: 130
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:49 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
GratefulDeadInside wrote:
Love the title of that one. "Ruined by cheering humans". Sounds like something a 15 year old kid way too into vampires and gothic attire would say.

Like, you were listening to a LIVE record, if you don't want "cheering humans" then listen to the albums.


The stuff he writes is surreal, yet I still have a hard time figuring out if the guy really is like that, or if he's just a good troll. Some of the stuff is just too funny, and I have a hard time believing that it comes from a real place of hardcore bitterness and cynicism. Imagining that this stuff comes from a genuine and passionnate hate for everything metal released after 1993 is just too sad and depressing for me. I have a hard time understanding how someone can go through life like this.


Dunno what's more sad, going through life hating everything and thinking all metal after 1993 sucks, or spending over a year of your life writing troll reviews for a metal archival site.
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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:53 pm 
 

I remember a wikipedia vandal once edited the page on us saying that "The website has a pathetic, insistent and infantile pseudo-socialist inclination, due to the fact that the moderators and owners had their heads sodomized and raped by counter culture and have an intellectual background based upon rock lyrics and post 1960s clichés and slogans."

That made me fucking giggle.
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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 950
Location: US
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:55 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
The stuff he writes is surreal, yet I still have a hard time figuring out if the guy really is like that, or if he's just a good troll.

Bitterman was not a troll. Pretty much the entirety of the DMU crowd shares his opinions. They may not use such colorful language as Bitterman reviews, but there is no doubt that those reviews came from a place of genuine conviction.

LongHairIsSoFuckingCool wrote:
I remember a wikipedia vandal once edited the page on us saying that "The website has a pathetic, insistent and infantile pseudo-socialist inclination, due to the fact that the moderators and owners had their heads sodomized and raped by counter culture and have an intellectual background based upon rock lyrics and post 1960s clichés and slogans."

That made me fucking giggle.

That language almost makes me wonder if a DMU denizen was the vandal. I certainly wouldn't put it above them or their ideology.
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Curious_dead
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Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts: 1219
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:02 pm 
 

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with DMU. I went to the site, and am not really clearer on what they are, why they'd be having opinions similar as bitterman, etc.

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JCP524
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:02 pm 
 

Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

In general, political leanings in metal are going to follow the usual metrics. For instance, those with children are generally going to lean more conservative than the childless. Those from a sexual minority are going to lean slightly left. The more advanced in secondary education usually means a more progressive tilt.

So, you're PHD in philosophy who is a Motorhead and Black Sabbath fan (there was a guy at metal rules named Sierra Nevada who was a professor) is going to be a leftist.

The married father that likes Morbid Angel and Megadeth (there was a guy at Metal Rules that played in Christian metal band) is proably going to have some libertarian or vague traditionalist beliefs.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:57 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

In general, political leanings in metal are going to follow the usual metrics. For instance, those with children are generally going to lean more conservative than the childless. Those from a sexual minority are going to lean slightly left. The more advanced in secondary education usually means a more progressive tilt.

So, you're PHD in philosophy who is a Motorhead and Black Sabbath fan (there was a guy at metal rules named Sierra Nevada who was a professor) is going to be a leftist.

The married father that likes Morbid Angel and Megadeth (there was a guy at Metal Rules that played in Christian metal band) is proably going to have some libertarian or vague traditionalist beliefs.


White people don't have a monopoly on right wing ideologies... For example: The Muslims who take everything in the Coran litterally, advocate for limitations of gay rights and even violence against homosexuals, sexual/gender segregation, no suffrage for women, no right to property for women, etc., are religious fundamentalists and very very conservative, just not the conservatives you're thinking about when trying to draw conclusions on complex individuals political beliefs based on demographic readings and voting habits.

Assuming that metal simply has to be more right-wing by default just because there are more white metalheads is not only a bad reading of demographic statistics, but it shows a terrible understanding of what the metal culture is altogether. Metal was, and arguably still is, mostly a counter-cultural movement. Sure you will always find examples of right-wing metalheads, or subscenes like black metal with a right-wing predominance, but metal has historically and is still arguably subversive and against the norms, and very much left-leaning.

If we insist on talking about demographics however, we can't just say "Well, there are more whites who vote for the Conservatives then for the Democrats in the US, so obviously any white majority culture will be conservative by default." For starters, well, because there are metalheads outside of the US (not to mention that there are pretty big metal communities outside of predominantly white countries, such as Brazil and Japan. Not that it should mean anything, because you can easily be Japanese and conservative, or white and progressive). But also because it just doesn't make sense to assume that all people voting for the Republicans are conservatives and that all the people voting for the Democrats are progressisve in a shitty ass broken bipartisan political system that forces you to choose between two crappy options. A vote is not a direct translation of deep political beliefs. When you only have two options, you often have to vote for what you consider the lesser evil. Voting habits are by no means a direct translation of political beliefs. Especially when your two options are a right-wing party or a slightly more right-wing party.

Like you pointed out, with demographics we also have to take into consideration: age, income, gender, sexual orientation, urban/rural, education, nationality, and more variables. With demographics alone, I can easily point to the fact that metalheads are usually younger, which typically aligns with more progressive views.

Even then it wouldn't mean much, because focusing solely on demographics and voting habits is just a terrible way to assess of the political leanings of an entire subculture, especially one that is so deeply rooted in counter-culture and subversivion and anti-establishment ideologies. If anything, what we know about metal, and without any more evidence, we should come to the conclusion that metalheads are most likely more left-wing then right-wing.

Edited for readibility.


Last edited by HeavenDuff on Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AxeCapitol
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
Posts: 339
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:07 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

In general, political leanings in metal are going to follow the usual metrics. For instance, those with children are generally going to lean more conservative than the childless. Those from a sexual minority are going to lean slightly left. The more advanced in secondary education usually means a more progressive tilt.

So, you're PHD in philosophy who is a Motorhead and Black Sabbath fan (there was a guy at metal rules named Sierra Nevada who was a professor) is going to be a leftist.

The married father that likes Morbid Angel and Megadeth (there was a guy at Metal Rules that played in Christian metal band) is proably going to have some libertarian or vague traditionalist beliefs.


White people don't have a monopoly on right wing ideologies... The Muslims who take everything in the Coran litterally, advocate for limitations of gay rights and even violence against homosexuals, sexual/gender segregation, no suffrage for women, no right to property for women, etc., are religious fundamentalists and very very conservative, just not the conservatives you're thinking about when trying to make oversimplified demographic readings of voting habits.

Assuming that metal simply has to be more right-wing by default just because there are more white metalheads is not only a blatantly wrong reading of demographic statistics, but it shows a terrible understanding of what the metal culture is altogether. Metal was, and arguably still is, mostly a counter-cultural movement. Sure you will always find examples of right-wing metalheads, or subscenes like black metal with a right-wing predominance, but metal has historically and is still arguably subversive and against the norms, and very much left-leaning.

If we insist on talking about demographics however, we can't just say "Well, there are more whites who vote for the conservatives then for the Democrats in the US, so obviously any white majority culture will be conservative by default." For starters, it just doesn't make sense to assume that all people voting for the Republicans are conservatives and that all the people voting for the Democrats are progressisve in a shitty ass broken bipartisan political system that forces you to choose between two crappy options. A vote is not a direct translation of deep political beliefs. When you only have two options, you often have to vote for what you consider the lesser evil. Voting habits are by no means a direct translation of political beliefs. Especially when your two options are a right-wing party or a slightly more right-wing party. Also, try to remember that there are metalheads outside of the US.

Like you pointed out, with demographics we also have to take into consideration: age, income, gender, sexual orientation, urban/rural, education, nationality, and more variables. With demographics alone, I can easily point to the fact that metalheads are usually younger, which typically aligns with more progressive views. Even then it wouldn't mean much, because focusing solely on demographics and voting habits is just a terrible way to assess of the political leanings of an entire subculture, especially one that is so deeply rooted in counter-culture and subversivion and anti-establishment ideologies. If anything, what we know about metal should lead us to think that metalheads are more left-wing then right-wing.

Not to mention that there are pretty big metal communities outside of predominantly white countries, such as Brazil and Japan. Not that it should mean anything, because you can easily be Japanese and conservative, or white and progressive.


The Coran? Is that the Muslim version Conan?

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 3255
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:12 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
The Coran? Is that the Muslim version Conan?


....that's how we write Quran in French.

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