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AxeCapitol
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
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Location: NYC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:20 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
AxeCapitol wrote:
The Coran? Is that the Muslim version Conan?


....that's how we write Quran in French.


Ah noted.

There are also right wing Jews and Hindus (see RSS and Modi) and even Buddhists. Not sure the point in highlighting Muslims at expense of others. Anyway. Carry on.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:42 pm 
 

AxeCapitol wrote:
There are also right wing Jews and Hindus (see RSS and Modi) and even Buddhists. Not sure the point in highlighting Muslims at expense of others. Anyway. Carry on.


Just an example. I also mentionned how you can be Japanese and conservative. I was not going to make my post lenghtier by putting unecessary examples just for the sake of it. Besides, if I would have mentioned conservative Jews someone would have told me the exact same thing you just did. My whole post pretty much insisted on the fact that you can be of basically any ethnic or religious background and be anywhere on the left/right spectrum.

I thought of Muslims because of a colleague of mine who is Muslim and progressive, and who explained to me that a lot of Muslims who were more conservative would end up voting for the Liberal party here, not so much because they themselves didn't hold conservative views, but because the Liberals here have less restrictive politics regarding immigration and have historically been more favorable to religious freedom. Further demonstrating my earlier point that voting habit cannot and shouldn't be interpreted as an expression of deep political convictions.

People who do care about politics look at political platforms, they weigh the pros and cons and make decisions based on what they find the most important for themselves and their community/society.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:46 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
The problem with metal is that some part of it is - essentially - musically conservative and escapist as far as lyrical content goes.

Take a look at traditional metal, USPM and the like. In essence what the new bands of those genres are doing is a retread of what once was, a nod to the "good old days" of metal music and such. Almost in all cases they remix influences and sounds but the result is something that is rigidly conservative musically. When it does not happen and even a small "new idea" pops out - in the case of Idle Hands/Unto Others - the band is seen as revolutionary. Of course that guy did not talk about traditional metal, speed metal etc. but the point still stands. There a whole chunk of metal that is conservative from a musical standpoint - at least now.

While I am not that well versed in the newer thrash acts I think the same could be said about them even if they are lyrically less escapist and more political - at least at times.


This is the most interesting juxtaposition to me really. I've read that some of these USPM guys I like (George Call, Sean Peck, I don't want to know what Conklin thinks at this point) are pretty meathead conservative types in some issues anyway. And yes, a lot of metal music, with its focus on reciting various elements from older bands, can be conservative in that way, which may or may not lead to any connections with politics. But in general it's just the love of that sound, which has become this 'don't fuck with what I love' thing. Who knows. I'm sure there are plenty of quite leftist or liberal people - Panopticon is one, and plenty of others like Slough Feg's Mike Scalzi have said they have pretty liberal views. I guess at some level you do have to separate the art from the artist for smaller shit like this though. Depending on your views.
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soulonfire
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Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 1:56 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:55 am 
 

Zdan wrote:
soulonfire wrote:
I know pretty much everyone I know who is either a USPM musician or fan is pretty far right. I mean like Q'an, support the insurrection, Mah freedoms far right.


Just chimed in to say that I am the biggest USPM fan you will find around and I have no political affiliation and often no concrete position on a given issue (in most cases I just did not research it enough or care enough).


Oh yeah, there are a few who are apolitical but by and large most are hardcore right wing. Hell, Aska just had a gig supporting the insurrection cancelled.
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nephilim80
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:49 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:25 am 
 

I think we're diverse as any sector of the population. I've met people in metal that are fans of most political spectrums.
Maybe a huge chunk of the metal populace doesn't care about politics at all.
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Byrain
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Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:05 pm 
 

At least in North America left and right are currently a false dichotomy. Its more about authoritarian vs non-authoritarian, I have seen members of the so called left and right on both sides. Left and right are just means to segregate and divide people over arbitrary lines so the masses are focused on fighting each other instead of the current blatant political corruption that has gone on uninterrupted for decades at least.

As for metalheads its very obviously a diverse group with many different political, social and personal ideologies. Even in this thread which is an extremely limited sampling group not everyone agrees.

JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.


This is a false correlation, skin color doesn't correspond to ideology and is a worthless generalization that is even racist.

Human skin color is an evolutionary expression related to the environment in which ancestors lived. This is why there are so many people with dark skin color in a place like Nigeria and light skin color in Norway. Historically people in Nigeria got a whole lot more sun exposure so they developed more melanin content in their skin to protect them from harmful excess sun exposure. As a result they absorb vitamin D from the sun at a slower rate which is not a problem because of the amount of sunlight they are exposed to. Alternatively Norway is a place with far less sun exposure so the people who lived there developed lighter skin color with less melanin that absorbed vitamin D at a faster rate. Of course a person with less melanin content must take more care to protect themselves from the sun in Nigeria as a person with more melanin content would want to especially make sure they get enough vitamin D in Norway. Of course modernity has led to many people lacking in vitamin D regardless of geographical location.

Using skin color to generalize and segregate people is not only erroneous it is disturbing. Melanin content doesn't determine belief and isn't indicative of anything more than ancestry.

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GratefulDeadInside
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:22 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:43 pm 
 

JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

And this is why most forums have political discussion banned. There is no way someone believes something this racist.
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Thy Shrine
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:55 pm 
 

GratefulDeadInside wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

And this is why most forums have political discussion banned. There is no way someone believes something this racist.


Yeah what a fucking asshole that first guy is and that's so insulting because it promotes this fucking bullshit garbage that white well off fucking liberals are the ones with minorities interests in their hands when really they've just found a way to pander and get votes because the rich white assholes vote republican.

God how can somebody actually be that fucking brainwashed by obvious mind games, what a genuine idiot tbh I just find that to be such an insulting opinion not only to my intelligence but it's just kinda morally bankrupted
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:03 pm 
 

I think politics are quite diverse in the metal community and I'm not surprised about that in any way. The left leaning people find inspiration in the anti-religious and anti-hierarchical threads in much of metal. Traditional liberals (leaning towards libertarianism) find inspiration in the very individualistic focus. The thought of the lone man proving himself is strong in metal. The authoritarian types on the right find their share in how many bands promote strength over weakness (where strength often comes from being part of an elite group of some sort). The traditional conservative (not the us kind) may find inspiration in the lyrics that thrive on virtue ethics, heroism, monarchs, folklore, mythology etc.

TheLoneForest wrote:
Spoiler: show
The Enlightenment was a left wing movement. Period. It was anti-Tory, wanted to remove the aristocracy and in most cases, the entire Monarchy as a whole. All forms of republicanism, which stemmed directly from the Enlightenment, is inherently left wing, because it destroys the concept of hierarchal power, organic systems and so on. It is inherently revolutionary. That is the fundamental idea of the right. It is keeping the established traditions of monarchical order and an organic society. Everything else is revolutionary.

"b-but MUH THATCHER AND REAGARINOS"

They were born out of the neoliberal mindset, which stemmed originally from classical liberal scholars like John Locke, Voltaire etc. Nationalism, Protectionism, Social Conservatism are not concepts that are monopolised by one side of the political spectrum. That's fucking stupid. You can be on the far left and have just as much Nationalist tendencies as any guy on the American Populist Right.


This is so close to what I'm currently reading abut - Tage Lindbom a Swedish muslim convert traditionalist (of the sophia perrennis sort). Conservative to the point of reactionary. What you write here is very much what he said as well. He dismissed Edmund Burke as a product of the enlightenment and did the same with the conservative movement at large. In his view, and those like him, it isn't conservative if it doesn't conserve the traditional values of hierarchical organic society with God as the axis mundi. From this perspective there is a point to be made. However few of us actually hold this position because we aren't as extreme. So there can be a good argument made that the enlightenment was a left wing thing which actually complete won the western world. However this isn't very useful for us today since that means there would be no real right wing left (of any importance at lest). I think we better say that the enlightenment mean the eradication of traditionalist society (in the west) while we got a few different strands of ideology rising from this movement (liberalism, socialism and conservatism). Thus we come to:

HeavenDuff wrote:
Spoiler: show
The right-left dichotomy is extremely limiting as it can be very difficult to situate specific notions such as individual freedom, freedom of press, free market, etc. as inherently right or left wing, but neoliberalism is definitely a right-wing ideology. If on paper it seems to be advocating for individual freedoms, gay rights, women's rights, indigenous rights, children's rights, etc., in practice neo-liberalism is extremely detrimental to people who have been historically discriminated against, it reproduces systems of oppression by promoting "non-interventionism", it continuously makes the gap between the rich and the poor grow bigger, and increases the wealth of the rich. Neo-liberalism allows for Western countries to continuously benefit from child labor across the world, because it encourages globalization, free market and deregulation in 3rd world countries through instances like the IMF. Neoliberalism strives on inequities, and this is by it's very definition, incompatible with left wing ideologies. Indigenous populations are suffering from neoliberalism as their land is getting owned and exploited by private corporations who destroy them, taint the water, destroy the natural habitat of millions of animals and drastically reduces biodiversity. The people who suffer the most from the climate crisis are the poor and the vulnerable, while those who are responsible for most CO2 emissions and

Neoconservatism, is basically neoliberalism, but with more restrictions of immigration, anti-choice rhetoric, climate change denial, subsidies to oil and coal corporations, restrictions on gay marriage, plain fuckin' transphobia and ​good ol' fashinoned sexism on top of it.

Both these ideologies are very obviously right-wing.


Liberalism is an interesting case. It was obviously part of the political left when it started to gain traction. The socialists and the liberals were on the same side fighting the conservatives (now in the form of the more Burkean version - not what I mentioned above). So when you write "Neoliberalism strives on inequities, and this is by it's very definition, incompatible with left wing ideologies." that is true in how most define left wing today but if we take a grasp of the larger picture there were other things associated with the term. However if we switch left wing for socialism your statement would ring as true then as it does now.

But as you say, left and right are complicated terms. Some say its about statism vs non-statism but it's quite clear that both left and right have extremes on both ends. Some say it is about economic policy but we all know there are people on the right who are very much for a free marked while others are for a more planned economy (and the same goes for the left wing, compare social democracy with communism for example). Libertarianism is so interesting in this case. There are parts of that movement which leans heavily towards the left and their priorities. This branch was strong in the 90's. There are also branches which are strongly leaning to the right. These have gained popularity recently (we've seen libertarians support strongly nationalistic groups for example).

It's just tough to use these umbrella terms. And with that said we all do it anyway even though more specification would probably help.
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AxeCapitol
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
Posts: 589
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:26 pm 
 

Thy Shrine wrote:
GratefulDeadInside wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

And this is why most forums have political discussion banned. There is no way someone believes something this racist.


Yeah what a fucking asshole that first guy is and that's so insulting because it promotes this fucking bullshit garbage that white well off fucking liberals are the ones with minorities interests in their hands when really they've just found a way to pander and get votes because the rich white assholes vote republican.

God how can somebody actually be that fucking brainwashed by obvious mind games, what a genuine idiot tbh I just find that to be such an insulting opinion not only to my intelligence but it's just kinda morally bankrupted


Calm down man. Struck a nerve there? Rhetoric hits a little close to home?

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LongHairIsSoFuckingCool
Edgy Metal Noob Catchphrase Dispenser

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 547
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:39 pm 
 

Thy Shrine wrote:
GratefulDeadInside wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

And this is why most forums have political discussion banned. There is no way someone believes something this racist.


Yeah what a fucking asshole that first guy is and that's so insulting because it promotes this fucking bullshit garbage that white well off fucking liberals are the ones with minorities interests in their hands when really they've just found a way to pander and get votes because the rich white assholes vote republican.

God how can somebody actually be that fucking brainwashed by obvious mind games, what a genuine idiot tbh I just find that to be such an insulting opinion not only to my intelligence but it's just kinda morally bankrupted

It feels like you are doing the same as JCP though. I'm basically a liberal and I'm not white or wealthy.
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Thy Shrine
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:48 pm 
 

It feels like you are doing the same as JCP though. I'm basically a liberal and I'm not white or wealthy.[/quote]

I will admit I have a tendency to get animated when I talk sometimes but what I meant to say was I see all the time at least around here(I live in the US just for clarification) the democratic side constantly saying they are the party for minorities and I in general think that's a sick thing to try to pander to people like that I mostly meant politicians I don't mean people that are just normal people living everyday lives so I'm sorry about that

I was more so insulted by the initial message because I just didn't like the implication tbh I'm white too I have basically liberal beliefs as well and I felt that the initial message was just emblematic of a message that politicians use that I find to be a way to divide people so it irritated me

No harm I just have a tendency to fly off the handle like that when I see people saying stuff like that I guess
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:09 am 
 

Before 2016 I'd have said you'd have any easier time sussing a coherent political ideology out of Simpsons fans than heavy metal, but over the past four years I did detect a general anti-Trump sentiment radiating from a lot of metal spheres, and by no means am I just talking about here and certainly not only in the U.S. Being anti-Trump is not an ideology and it may just be because every fucking idiot in the world can have an opinion about him, but it was interesting while it lasted. Now that Joe Viben's in things seem to have gone back to normal in the Metal world.
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Ex El Ex El Ex
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:53 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:53 am 
 

To be fair, I do think there's something healthy about questioning the intelligence or priorities of people who aren't instantly repulsed by Trump as a human being.
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Sweetie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:55 pm 
 

Skimming through this, there's a loooot of "liberal vs. conservative" as if those aren't both on the right side of political spectrum.

I myself am a socialist and a good majority of my metal friends are fine with that, to answer the question. But that's one tiny network. There are obviously loads of right wingers too.
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Thy Shrine
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:08 pm 
 

Ex El Ex El Ex wrote:
To be fair, I do think there's something healthy about questioning the intelligence or priorities of people who aren't instantly repulsed by Trump as a human being.


Well yeah I'm not even afraid to say, if one day I learned Trump was a pedophile it wouldn't shock me in the very least I think he's an obvious narcissistic pile of shit, not about to go all "he's the second coming of Hitler" cuz I think that's a stupid thing to say as well, but yeah I certainly don't like him or have much respect for him

I just don't really like people that excessively idolize one candidate over the other as if there's really a difference, in my opinion I think it's all a stupid game and the only way to win is not playing, and I think the game is specifically designed to give people the illusion they can master it, and honestly if you wanna attempt, no problem on my end, if you wanna try to help people, that's obviously a good thing, but don't sit here and tell me you'll ever get rid of that system on top, no fucking chance imo

I sort of liken it to a sports game, both teams fight and both fans do nothing but fight and that's all it is, I mean even here we're just talking and discussing things, I like that, I know it ultimately doesn't really matter, but I'm happy to talk to people so it's whatever

And yeah I'd go one step further and say I think there is nothing wrong with anybody calling somebody stupid if they say an opinion that they fundamentally disrespect, I can handle people having different perspectives and life experiences but there's certain things I just don't respect and consider stupid
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:54 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Liberalism is an interesting case. It was obviously part of the political left when it started to gain traction. The socialists and the liberals were on the same side fighting the conservatives (now in the form of the more Burkean version - not what I mentioned above). So when you write "Neoliberalism strives on inequities, and this is by it's very definition, incompatible with left wing ideologies." that is true in how most define left wing today but if we take a grasp of the larger picture there were other things associated with the term. However if we switch left wing for socialism your statement would ring as true then as it does now.

But as you say, left and right are complicated terms. Some say its about statism vs non-statism but it's quite clear that both left and right have extremes on both ends. Some say it is about economic policy but we all know there are people on the right who are very much for a free marked while others are for a more planned economy (and the same goes for the left wing, compare social democracy with communism for example). Libertarianism is so interesting in this case. There are parts of that movement which leans heavily towards the left and their priorities. This branch was strong in the 90's. There are also branches which are strongly leaning to the right. These have gained popularity recently (we've seen libertarians support strongly nationalistic groups for example).

It's just tough to use these umbrella terms. And with that said we all do it anyway even though more specification would probably help.


This is very interesting. Thank you for your answer.

The left/right spectrum is limited and a (over) simplification of more complex political ideologies. Like you said, it can't be boiled down to statism vs non-statism, as you have anarchists and libertarians who are both in favor of a very minimal (even non-existent) state, but one is associated to the left and the other to the right. Examples of statist ideologies on both the right and left side also exists.

There are other political compasses designed to take other factors into consideration when analyzing political ideologies, such as the model of Hans Eysenck, with radical and conservative at both ends of the x-axis, and democratic and authoritarian on the y-axis. But this one was also criticized by political scientists, and some offered multi-axis spectrums, such as Brian Patrick Mitchell, which has 8 ways. Another common model some might be more familiar with opposes economic left with economic right on the x-axis, and authoritarian and libertarian on the y-axis. While such compasses all have their limitations, they are good tools to facilitate understanding and analysis.

The example of libertarianism you're giving is interesting here, because it is difficult to agree as to where to place it on the right/left spectrum alone. The reason being that they are typically not conservative at all on social and moral issues. Libertarianism, in principle, is non-racist, non-sexist and doesn't discriminate on religion or sexual orientation.

It gets tricky when we analyse the potential impacts of the application of such ideologies in reality, because some will argue, myself include, that while Libertarianism may not discriminate against women, ethnic and religious minorities, trans people, etc., in reality, a full-blown capitalist libertarian utopia would reproduce inequities that already exist in society. I don't want to dig too deep in that direction as I really don't want to start a debate about how terrible or good libertarianism is, but rather I want to insist on the fact that it's very hard to actually find consensus as to where on the right/left spectrum libertarianism would actually be. Like I said, I personnaly think of Libertarianism as inherently right wing, but Libertarians often seem to think that a real life application of their ideals would somehow solve all forms of inequities and structural discriminations that exist now.

To circle back to the infancy of Liberalism and how, like I explained before, left/right are actually not static and evolve through time, I wanted to dig a little into the work of Adam Smith, as I find it is a very good example of this. When Adam Smith originally theorized on a free market, he thought that encouraging different nations, but also the enterprises and corporations operating within them, to produce merchandise to the lowest cost to maximize profit, was the best way to solve the issues of war that Europe had been struggling with for basically all of it's known history, not only between European countries, but with nations outside of the continent. For Smith, it made no sense to try produce something in your own country to higher cost, if you could get it from elsewhere for a lower cost (including the cost of production and transportation). This was very logical and very progressive at the time, and also a good way to encourage different nations not to be at war with one another. Trade, was actually a tool to make people benefit from having good relationships with their neighboors, and find a win-win situation.

Now, leap forward a few hundred years to the 21st century. It still makes sense for privately owned businesses to try and produce everything at the lowest cost and have it shipped all over the world, as they are not the ones paying for the environmental damage they are causing with CO2 and greenhouse gas emissions, but the ice caps are melting, some regions in the world are already suffering from the impacts of global warming, so we have to take this into account now. Smith, when he theorized the free market also didn't know that some corporations would basically become more powerful then entire nations and that asymetrical relationships would completely nullify the benefits of free trade for the poor, as they are basically forced to engage into exchanges and sign free trade agreements that don't really benefit them as they need the trade, but don't have any kind of political/economic leverage so they are on the losing side when negociating these agreements. Free market, cannot, in that sense, be approached the same way as it was when Smith theorized it. What used to be a more progressive concept, definitely cannot be considered to be the same today. What I'm saying here is that we need to consider ideologies in their historical context to be able to fully understand them. It wouldn't make sense to percive everything post-enlightenment as progressive by default, as politics have drastically evolved since, and the power struggles have changed, and new issues have arisen.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:55 pm 
 

Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.
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Ex El Ex El Ex
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:16 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.

Argentina is overwhelmingly white in many ways, usually to the cost of other groups. It took me quite a while to recognize this, I am not proud to admit it.
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Invocation
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:19 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.


Given that the Republicans are (or are at least seen to be) effectively a racist party I think party affiliation could be a poor proxy for social views among non-white Americans. I imagine black or hispanic voters with socially conservative views might vote Democrat because they don't want to vote for politicians that are likely to discriminate against them. Voting patterns might be different if the country had no racial division.

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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:48 pm 
 

Invocation wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.


Given that the Republicans are (or are at least seen to be) effectively a racist party I think party affiliation could be a poor proxy for social views among non-white Americans. I imagine black or hispanic voters with socially conservative views might vote Democrat because they don't want to vote for politicians that are likely to discriminate against them. Voting patterns might be different if the country had no racial division.


This is extremely well put, and it supports what I said earlier about the impossibility to draw conclusions on political beliefs of people based on voting habits. I mentionned in a previous post a Muslim colleague of mine who said that non-white conservative muslim immigrants often voted for the Liberals in Canada, not so much because they agreed with their views on gay marriage, gender equality and whatnot, but because they couldn't possibly vote for the Conservatives, a party that limits immigration and with (at least historically) xenophobic ideologies. I assume it is very often the case for most non-white conservative immigrants.

Another interesting phenomenon in the US is the latino vote, that we would assume to be vastly in favor of the Democrats, and even if Biden in the 2020 election got a comfortable 61% of support from latinos, "there was about an 8 percentage-point swing toward Trump, based on data on votes cast for either the Democratic or Republican nominees in 2016 and 2020." If you're interested in analysis of voting habits analysis, this article digs into this subject more specifically:



Bottom-line is that there might a correlation between voting habits and political beliefs, but you have to be extremely cautious when trying to draw conclusions from voting habits. There might a correlation between the two, but there is absolutely no causal connection. Especially in a country with such limited political party options as the United States.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:42 pm 
 

So what? All this proves is that some Liberal/Democratic voters and/or PoC might be right-wing, not the reverse. If you vote GOP you are not left wing lol. All JCP said was that whites are more likely to be conservatives, not that non-whites can't be conservatives. This is not remotely controversial and you're all beating up on a ridiculous strawman for no reason.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:49 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
All JCP said was that whites are more likely to be conservatives [...] This is not remotely controversial


the point is that maybe it should be controversial, since you can't really make such deductions from voting habits, because non-whites have good reasons* to vote democrat regardless of if they are conservative or not

not to mention considering parts of the world that are outside of north america

*namely not voting for racists that discriminate against them
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CrudeNoiseMonger
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:06 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:48 am 
 

joppek wrote:
because non-whites have good reasons* to vote democrat regardless of if they are conservative or not
*namely not voting for racists that discriminate against them


As a registered "Non-White" Independent there's not many good reasons to continue voting Democrat. Check the most fucked up major cities in the US and they've been largely Democrat for decades. In some places it's been over 60 years. Take a look at places like Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Newark, Philadelphia, recent New York City etc etc just to name a few as it would be a hell of a long list. All you are going to get is more terms of nothing really and steady numbers of death on the streets. And that "Not voting for racists" line above. Thank you for the chuckle. I really don't trust Republicans at all but i absolutely despise Democrats.

Just for everyone to know, i was a Democrat for 21 years.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:12 am 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
joppek wrote:
because non-whites have good reasons* to vote democrat regardless of if they are conservative or not
*namely not voting for racists that discriminate against them


As a registered "Non-White" Independent there's not many good reasons to continue voting Democrat. Check the most fucked up major cities in the US and they've been largely Democrat for decades. In some places it's been over 60 years. Take a look at places like Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Newark, Philadelphia, recent New York City etc etc just to name a few as it would be a hell of a long list. All you are going to get is more terms of nothing really and steady numbers of death on the streets. And that "Not voting for racists" line above. Thank you for the chuckle. I really don't trust Republicans at all but i absolutely despise Democrats.

Just for everyone to know, i was a Democrat for 21 years.

Democrats are bad. We agree. But RepuQlicans are better? Are you fucking kidding me? This Amero-centric discussion over two deeply right-wing parties doesn't really have a place in this thread, but this forum does have major representation from the US, so why not.

And blaming Dems for the crime in big cities is just embarrassing, dude. Sad in ways that are difficult to overstate.
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SuperVeji4
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:33 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:42 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.

You had me in the first half, but "white fragility"? That kind of rhetoric is truly vile.

I've always thought it was pretty obvious that metalheads were mostly left-wing. I mean, wasn't Metal conceived to be anti-establishment and such? And the "establishment" was mostly right-wing Christian-inspired conservatism, so naturally the original players of Metal were, in general, left-wing; and I feel this type of left-wing mentality was kept in tact for the most part (sure, you'll have Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists and such, but I feel like those are mostly just outliers). Hell, this is what brought me into Metal in the first place. Being raised in a conservative Catholic household and hearing these bands that were edgy and sometimes downright anti-Christian, it was exciting and (for a lack of a better word) fucking cool! But now this left-wing ideology has gone off the rails and it's now infected with these "enlightened" liberals, and quite frankly the fun has been spoiled by them in some ways. I don't think they're the majority and I understand some of their efforts, but I truly hope it blows over eventually because it's honestly getting quite annoying.

darkeningday wrote:
CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
joppek wrote:
because non-whites have good reasons* to vote democrat regardless of if they are conservative or not
*namely not voting for racists that discriminate against them


As a registered "Non-White" Independent there's not many good reasons to continue voting Democrat. Check the most fucked up major cities in the US and they've been largely Democrat for decades. In some places it's been over 60 years. Take a look at places like Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Newark, Philadelphia, recent New York City etc etc just to name a few as it would be a hell of a long list. All you are going to get is more terms of nothing really and steady numbers of death on the streets. And that "Not voting for racists" line above. Thank you for the chuckle. I really don't trust Republicans at all but i absolutely despise Democrats.

Just for everyone to know, i was a Democrat for 21 years.

Democrats are bad. We agree. But RepuQlicans are better? Are you fucking kidding me?

When he says he "doesn't trust Republicans but despises Democrats" it could very well be because the Republicans are blunt with their shittyness, while Democrats masquerade themselves as "righteous" and cover up their shittyness with this feel-good, anti-racist, for-the-little-guy narrative that's absolute bullshit. Hence, why he's a "registered 'Non-White' Independent" (with all due respect, if I'm wrong about any of this CrudeNoiseMonger, go right ahead and correct me).

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CrudeNoiseMonger
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:06 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:41 am 
 

[/quote]And blaming Dems for the crime in big cities is just embarrassing, dude. Sad in ways that are difficult to overstate.[/quote]

As the old saying goes..."Reality is a motherfucker." I got NYC and Philadelphia as the two big city neighbors and who do think calls the shots from the DA down to the Police Chiefs? It's the Democrats. All this "decriminalizing" bullshit movement is virtually straight Democrat. Who's letting dudes walk despite arrest records that are as thick as a bible? Democrats. The new Manhattan DA who has vowed not to prosecute armed criminals if their robberies aren't "Sufficiently Violent" and has effectively legalized theft. What is he? A Democrat. In NYC it is standard Democrat policy to cut loose all kinds of people that not too long would have been slammed down in Rikers. I have an uncle in East New York that has to deal with all kinds of madness because the Democrats eliminated the vital plainclothes police units that kept an eye on the thuggery. Those same Democrats also did an outstanding job in driving out literally hundreds of ordinary cops from the force. I could go on with NYC for quite a while due to Democrat policies. Then we have Philadelphia aka Killadelphia. They have a DA that is a Democrat wet dream. Shit's fucked on a street level in areas and the number of murders is just plain surreal. A day without a killing is a rare one. Man, i could be writing for hours on all this. And it's much the same for many of the places i've been to or been through for years. Solid Vote Blue and Solid They're Screwed.

And it just isn't me. It's common talk to discuss what the latest Democrat fuckup will be but few vote Republican locally anyways so things just keep right on going. PS on the last line. We've had some Republican success around here over the decades but it's been a Democrat stronghold for over 120 years.

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Sweetie
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:52 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
When he says he "doesn't trust Republicans but despises Democrats" it could very well be because the Republicans are blunt with their shittyness, while Democrats masquerade themselves as "righteous" and cover up their shittyness with this feel-good, anti-racist, for-the-little-guy narrative that's absolute bullshit.


You're 100% correct. For that reason, to me, one is not worse than the other. Democrats and Republicans both only serve the interests of the ruling class. Until an *actual* leftist is given a chance in American politics (like, left of Bernie), it really won't make a difference. If voting could truly fix anything, they wouldn't let us do it, and they'll certainly never let an actual socialist run that high in the ranks. The only way we're gonna get any real change is through direct action or revolution.
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Red_Death
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Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:54 am 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
Hecatomb867 wrote:
TheLoneForest wrote:
Left

Modern conservatism is in no way, a right wing ideology. Anything that stems from Neoliberalism and the Enlightenment is inherently left wing

There really is no right wing anymore, aside from fringe political groups. Everything today is just various shades of left to center-left


I can't tell if this is a joke or you're just extraordinarily stupid.


Literally nobody here has clearly defined what left and right actually mean.

The Enlightenment was a left wing movement. Period. It was anti-Tory, wanted to remove the aristocracy and in most cases, the entire Monarchy as a whole. All forms of republicanism, which stemmed directly from the Enlightenment, is inherently left wing, because it destroys the concept of hierarchal power, organic systems and so on. It is inherently revolutionary. That is the fundamental idea of the right. It is keeping the established traditions of monarchical order and an organic society. Everything else is revolutionary.

Unless your completely ready to accept that only the most literal restoration of the Ancien Régime in its regional variants constitutes right-wing politics, you should get on with the program and accept that terms don't have an immutable meaning. It's clearly the case these two in particular have undergone significant transformations in their use, so referencing the Enlightenment is completely besides the point.

It's not like we're discussing this online right after the session of the French National Assembly.
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CrudeNoiseMonger
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:06 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:00 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Man, people going apeshit at a casual comment that simply points out whites are more likely to be conservatives (statistically demonstrable btw) riles up people more than actual nazis in metal. Peak white fragility, I swear.

You had me in the first half, but "white fragility"? That kind of rhetoric is truly vile.

I've always thought it was pretty obvious that metalheads were mostly left-wing. I mean, wasn't Metal conceived to be anti-establishment and such? And the "establishment" was mostly right-wing Christian-inspired conservatism, so naturally the original players of Metal were, in general, left-wing; and I feel this type of left-wing mentality was kept in tact for the most part (sure, you'll have Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists and such, but I feel like those are mostly just outliers). Hell, this is what brought me into Metal in the first place. Being raised in a conservative Catholic household and hearing these bands that were edgy and sometimes downright anti-Christian, it was exciting and (for a lack of a better word) fucking cool! But now this left-wing ideology has gone off the rails and it's now infected with these "enlightened" liberals, and quite frankly the fun has been spoiled by them in some ways. I don't think they're the majority and I understand some of their efforts, but I truly hope it blows over eventually because it's honestly getting quite annoying.

I really don't trust Republicans at all but i absolutely despise Democrats.

Just for everyone to know, i was a Democrat for 21 years.

Democrats are bad. We agree. But RepuQlicans are better? Are you fucking kidding me? [/quote]
When he says he "doesn't trust Republicans but despises Democrats" it could very well be because the Republicans are blunt with their shittyness, while Democrats masquerade themselves as "righteous" and cover up their shittyness with this feel-good, anti-racist, for-the-little-guy narrative that's absolute bullshit. Hence, why he's a "registered 'Non-White' Independent" (with all due respect, if I'm wrong about any of this CrudeNoiseMonger, go right ahead and correct me).[/quote]


Two things. About the "Independent" that's some part of it, but you are on the right track. As for the "left wing metal heads" it's more a modern thing. Back in the 80s it was conservative as all hell despite occasional lip service from some bands. Quite a lot of attitudes were pretty much to the right of Atilla the Hun. Metal was also solidly working class in the areas i knew it. It was unusual to find a metal head who either didn't have a job or had some kind of hustle going.

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Morton Salt
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:25 pm
Posts: 256
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:21 am 
 

I don’t really buy the whole “Democratic cities have more crime/violence” claim, if that was the case then why do places like Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama etc. consistently have some of the highest crime statistics?

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Twisted_Psychology
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Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:21 am 
 

The Overton Window is one hell of a drug.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:25 am 
 

CrudeNoiseMonger wrote:
As the old saying goes..."Reality is a motherfucker." I got NYC and Philadelphia as the two big city neighbors and who do think calls the shots from the DA down to the Police Chiefs? It's the Democrats. All this "decriminalizing" bullshit movement is virtually straight Democrat. Who's letting dudes walk despite arrest records that are as thick as a bible? Democrats. The new Manhattan DA who has vowed not to prosecute armed criminals if their robberies aren't "Sufficiently Violent" and has effectively legalized theft. What is he? A Democrat. In NYC it is standard Democrat policy to cut loose all kinds of people that not too long would have been slammed down in Rikers. I have an uncle in East New York that has to deal with all kinds of madness because the Democrats eliminated the vital plainclothes police units that kept an eye on the thuggery. Those same Democrats also did an outstanding job in driving out literally hundreds of ordinary cops from the force. I could go on with NYC for quite a while due to Democrat policies. Then we have Philadelphia aka Killadelphia. They have a DA that is a Democrat wet dream. Shit's fucked on a street level in areas and the number of murders is just plain surreal. A day without a killing is a rare one. Man, i could be writing for hours on all this. And it's much the same for many of the places i've been to or been through for years. Solid Vote Blue and Solid They're Screwed.

And it just isn't me. It's common talk to discuss what the latest Democrat fuckup will be but few vote Republican locally anyways so things just keep right on going. PS on the last line. We've had some Republican success around here over the decades but it's been a Democrat stronghold for over 120 years.

As I expected. You've been corrupted by partisan propaganda in order to ensure you're a compliant voter.

Quick lesson on reading stats: correlation does not imply causation. Big cities tend to have Democratic politicians. Big cities tend to have higher crime rates. Linking these two is idiotic because you're missing other variables and confounds. For example, Jacksonville has a Republican DA and a Republican mayor. Highest murder rate in Florida and higher than Tampa, which is Democratic. There are other examples of this.

Democrats didn't defund the police. As a party, they've done no serious criminal justice reform whatsoever. Basically the only difference is that they don't revel in the cruelty that Republicans do, and they'll occasionally virtue signal about wanting "reform" when they're out of power, but then do nothing when in power. That's about it. Like a lot of susceptible people, you see those virtue signals and use them to explain the fact that things are deteriorating.
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JCP524
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:37 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:49 am 
 

Thy Shrine wrote:
GratefulDeadInside wrote:
JCP524 wrote:
Metalheads are overwhelmingly white so right wing views are going to be disproportionately represented. That's just the uncomfortable reality.

And this is why most forums have political discussion banned. There is no way someone believes something this racist.


Yeah what a fucking asshole that first guy is and that's so insulting because it promotes this fucking bullshit garbage that white well off fucking liberals are the ones with minorities interests in their hands when really they've just found a way to pander and get votes because the rich white assholes vote republican.

God how can somebody actually be that fucking brainwashed by obvious mind games, what a genuine idiot tbh I just find that to be such an insulting opinion not only to my intelligence but it's just kinda morally bankrupted

I apologize if I offended.

Maybe you should read Ibram X. Kendi.

He much more eloquently states what I said.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:56 am 
 

SuperVeji4 wrote:
I've always thought it was pretty obvious that metalheads were mostly left-wing. I mean, wasn't Metal conceived to be anti-establishment and such? And the "establishment" was mostly right-wing Christian-inspired conservatism, so naturally the original players of Metal were, in general, left-wing; and I feel this type of left-wing mentality was kept in tact for the most part (sure, you'll have Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists and such, but I feel like those are mostly just outliers).


We're talking way too much about American voting habits by demographic, and not enough about this, really. There is a culture to metal that makes it lean way more to the left then to the right.

It's crazy that we're still on the "Well, white Americans have a slight tendency to vote for Republicans, so we should assume that metalheads, whom are absolutely not all white and Americans, are mostly Conservatives." argument This is some grade A false equivalence shit, and it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point. This kind of narrative also contributes to invisibilizing non-whites in the metal community.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:58 am 
 

Great post as always HeavenDuff.

HeavenDuff wrote:

There are other political compasses designed to take other factors into consideration when analyzing political ideologies, such as the model of Hans Eysenck, with radical and conservative at both ends of the x-axis, and democratic and authoritarian on the y-axis. But this one was also criticized by political scientists, and some offered multi-axis spectrums, such as Brian Patrick Mitchell, which has 8 ways. Another common model some might be more familiar with opposes economic left with economic right on the x-axis, and authoritarian and libertarian on the y-axis. While such compasses all have their limitations, they are good tools to facilitate understanding and analysis.


I don't know if this is just a internet test or if there is some theory behind it but I really quite appreciate the 8 values compass

https://8values.github.io/

When I've used it it's the one compass that I tend to like the most and that I think is the most accurate.

Quote:
The example of libertarianism you're giving is interesting here, because it is difficult to agree as to where to place it on the right/left spectrum alone. The reason being that they are typically not conservative at all on social and moral issues. Libertarianism, in principle, is non-racist, non-sexist and doesn't discriminate on religion or sexual orientation.

It gets tricky when we analyse the potential impacts of the application of such ideologies in reality, because some will argue, myself include, that while Libertarianism may not discriminate against women, ethnic and religious minorities, trans people, etc., in reality, a full-blown capitalist libertarian utopia would reproduce inequities that already exist in society. I don't want to dig too deep in that direction as I really don't want to start a debate about how terrible or good libertarianism is, but rather I want to insist on the fact that it's very hard to actually find consensus as to where on the right/left spectrum libertarianism would actually be. Like I said, I personnaly think of Libertarianism as inherently right wing, but Libertarians often seem to think that a real life application of their ideals would somehow solve all forms of inequities and structural discriminations that exist now.


Yes, libertarianism doesn't discriminate against anyone. However, it creates space for each libertarian to discriminate as he or she pleases (as long as it doesn't break the non-violence principle or property rights). If that means reproducing discrimination already in society or creating new ways of discrimination will probably wary from case to case.

Quote:
Spoiler: show
. . .I wanted to dig a little into the work of Adam Smith, as I find it is a very good example of this. . .

Now, leap forward a few hundred years to the 21st century. It still makes sense for privately owned businesses to try and produce everything at the lowest cost and have it shipped all over the world, as they are not the ones paying for the environmental damage they are causing with CO2 and greenhouse gas emissions, but the ice caps are melting, some regions in the world are already suffering from the impacts of global warming, so we have to take this into account now.


I haven't read Adam Smith so I can't comment on that but you make interesting points.

However, on the point of global warming and the free market, I would agree that it takes a huge toll on the environment and that this aspect needs to be controlled. This is why I'm leaning more towards protectionism these days where governments might encourage a more free market within a nations border but actively discourage a global free market. heck I'd even argue we might have to go local. Perhaps there should be incitements to for stores in a specific town to only sell food from nearby farms (to the extent this is possible - taken to the extreme would mean poverty and death).

I also want to make the point that the answer isn't just to get rid of the free market. If we look to the past a variety of regimes, with very different ideological umbrellas, have used industrialization to heighten comfort within it's borders but at the same time spewing out emissions (is that the right word?) that destroy the nature around. The elephant in the room is industrialization not ideology x or ideology y. And lets also remember how shifts happen on the political spectrum. With industrialisation in full force the socialists and liberals were the ones who used it the most while the classical conservatives were the greens of the time. Today it is usually people on the left who are strongly environmental while people on the right have leaned more and more to liberal policies like eternal economic prosperity (which requires industrialization).

I heard someone, can't remember who now, who said something quite radical. His/her point was that we need to butcher two holy cows if we are to save the environment. The first is heightened welfare. Heightened welfare needs heightened industrialization, economic prosperity and extraction of natural resources. The second is equality. We can't solve the environmental problems and at the same time strive to make the poorer countries equal to the richer ones. If anything the rich countries need to sacrifice things and become more like themselves of old. Quite and interesting though.
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Sweetie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:00 am 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
The Overton Window is one hell of a drug.


Seriously. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:06 am 
 

Morton Salt wrote:
I don’t really buy the whole “Democratic cities have more crime/violence” claim, if that was the case then why do places like Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama etc. consistently have some of the highest crime statistics?

Once you ask them to step out of the campaign demagoguery of right-wing politicians and actually ask them to show a correlation between, say, ending cash bail and a dramatic increase in crime (note: there need to be controls for pandemic and economic effects on crime), they'll immediately balk, because they can only communicate in broad, sweeping generalizations because, well, demagoguery.
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:12 am 
 

Invocation wrote:
Given that the Republicans are (or are at least seen to be) effectively a racist party I think party affiliation could be a poor proxy for social views among non-white Americans. I imagine black or hispanic voters with socially conservative views might vote Democrat because they don't want to vote for politicians that are likely to discriminate against them. Voting patterns might be different if the country had no racial division.


HeavenDuffs reply was good and I also want to add that whites are not inherently more conservative because they are white. If we take the US, then sure, more whites vote republican (though I'm not fond of calling them conservative). But in countries of different ethnic compositions the numbers look very different.

What is considered more conservative values in the west and that can be seen in political movements of the middle east or far east usually don't attract the white minorities in those countries but the local population be they arabs, indian or filippino. So yeah, just counting the votes of hispanics in country x and election y won't be very representative.

My experience in Sweden is that immigrants are much more value conservative that ethic swedes. It's not even close. However, way more immigrants vote for the left wing type parties mostly based on immigration policies and economic policies (which is interesting because historically, the past 50 years or so out social democrats have been way more restrictive with immigration that the liberal/conservative right).

Red_Death wrote:
Unless your completely ready to accept that only the most literal restoration of the Ancien Régime in its regional variants constitutes right-wing politics, you should get on with the program and accept that terms don't have an immutable meaning. It's clearly the case these two in particular have undergone significant transformations in their use, so referencing the Enlightenment is completely besides the point.

It's not like we're discussing this online right after the session of the French National Assembly.


I think in this case it's more useful to talk of traditional, or pre-modern type societies, contra modernism rather than to use right and left. There is definitely a case for the usage of right and left, or conservative and liberal, but in practice its mostly useless if one wants the other to understand.
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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 1035
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:23 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
I think in this case it's more useful to talk of traditional, or pre-modern type societies, contra modernism rather than to use right and left. There is definitely a case for the usage of right and left, or conservative and liberal, but in practice its mostly useless if one wants the other to understand.

Eh, maybe.
My opinion on this is that I don't really see this "traditionalist restorationism" as political in one specific sense (basically the only political tendency that consistently goes against the grain of modernism, as you say, and continued industrial society is primitivism, seriously held and probably organizationally tied to the more violent and radical strains of environmentalist politics, of any bent) since what few snippets of it I've had the pleasure of engaging with (guilty as charged here, I'm open to being refuted in this) wasn't even on a level of a John Zerzan, as an example. It seems more of a...philosophical thing, for lack of a better word. I've seen it in connection with certain occult beliefs and practices, which get only a very tangential political expression, if even that.

I think the left v. right is so ingrained by now, along with its changes in use, that its utility is basically guaranteed by that, provided that necessary clarifications are made (as against-the-grain they may be since there are many criteria and "axes" here, e.g. there are people who adamantly claim they are not leftists and that they are completely for communism at the same time).
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