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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4653
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:05 am 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
But Domjord got deleted too and all DsO stuff from Season of Mist only got deleted later. I mean, if the three deleted items from the NoEvDia Bandcamp page feature the same member, I think it's pretty safe to assume what happened there.

Somewhat related, I checked out of curiosity and Mgla is still on there. If they actually are removing bands with questionable histories, they're really doing a crap job at research.

Yeah, this is probably my only concern too. If this is the way they are going, I think the process should be more transparent. It feels a bit arbitrary. I mean, they don't owe anyone an explanation and I don't expect them to do that, but at least they could inform you why an item you bought is no longer available and has been deleted. I payed for a service after all.

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CoffeeCat
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:09 am
Posts: 338
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:39 am 
 

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:54 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
Twisted_Psychology wrote:
The Right's "cancel culture" was done through actual government legislation, the Left's "cancel culture" is companies and individuals deciding they don't want to deal with shitty people. Until KK Warslut is literally going to jail for being shitty, they're hardly equivalent.


HeavenDuff wrote:
It's weird that we're talking about it as if the right was not actively trying to cancel the left as we are speaking.


Both the left and the right have, in different times and different countries, used both government legislation as well as cultural means (I include individual businesses in that) to cancel the other out. The methods are different depending on the surrounding situation but the ends are the same - suffocating the views one doesn't like.

Curious_dead wrote:
Regarding "the right and the left", the right never stopped cancelling stuff.


Never said they didn't. Just looking at the major trends where the right wing cancelling and the left complaining about it reached its zenith (in regards to the west and to metal music) in the 80's while the left cancelling things is (maybe) reaching a zenith now. But mark my words it will change again... and again... and again.

In Die Nacht wrote:
The Left's cancel culture is violence. Rioting, punching strangers, doxxing people on the web by giving out addresses to be attacked. They have to act out in hive mind formation because alone they are doomed. Works better with Asian countries, not so much in the West.


There have been instances of this. Antifa Sweden has a very active webpage which is all about cancelling individuals. We've all seen violence in the name of removing the "wrong people" off the streets as well. And to be clear this happens in right wing circles as well (but living in Sweden it is almost non-existent today - it reached it's peak in the late 80's and early 90's together with the skinhead culture).

Maggot penetration wrote:
Whatever group of conformists can do it will ban whatever it doesn't like/understand. It's all quite mild compared to the gulags of yesteryear and it creates an edgy underground and legendary albums and bands. Metal ideally always will have some offensive artists


This is not unimportant. Metal always had some sort of rebellious edge. It is part of the DNA. If it was excessive drug use, radical left wing politics, satanism or outright NSBM there was always that element of antinomianism (in relation to majority society). If we loose that all together I think we'll loose an important part of metal - that is it feeling dangerous in one way or another.

HeavenDuff wrote:
Eh. Bandcamp is just one avenue for hearing D666 music. They have not been dropped by their label, they get bookings, their stuff is easily sold online and in stores etc. I would not say there canceled by any means. I also think the band's fanbase - but this is only observation - did not really use Bandcamp as their main means of getting and consuming D666 music.


Many people on these boards (who are vocal about their political leanings) supports and applauds de-platforming artists who they don't like because of ideological reasons. The same people often deny the existence of cancel culture. Shouldn't they be happy such a thing exist? Isn't this what they really want to happen? Or do they not acknowledge it for tactical reasons (i.e. it sounds bad to be pro-cancelling things you don't like - it sounds authoritarian)?

HeavenDuff wrote:
I stand by what I said before. Bandcamp removing shady bands and musicians from their platform is not part of an active effort to cancel them. Looking at the definition you shared of cancel culture, we can see that what Bandcamp did doesn't satisfy many key elements of what cancel culture is. . .

My main concern with "cancel culture" is that it's hard to actually define. Because what defines "conserted" cancellation and "mass" cancellation is very vague and highly debattable.


Sure, it comes down to definitions. But how much cancelling would define cancel culture? The amount of places one is banned from? Or the impact of the individual bans? There is significant difference to being banned from a company providing a main revenue income for a band compared to a small time festival in Greece. Again, I don't know about Destroyer666 or their history but let's take Mortuus who seems to have been cancelled from Bandcamp and where there was a movement to get his band cancelled in regards to performing in Sweden (almost stopping a whole festival because Marduk was headlining the bill). I'm not really looking for an answer, the question is rhetorical. One cancellation isn't cancel culture but what of two, three or four? As you say it's shades of grey.

Quote:
This is also rather ironic as folks complaining about cancel culture are often lpretending to care about the protection of freedom of speech, freedom of association, and "freedom" in general, but seem to be completely alien to the idea that some people or oranizations might want to freely decide not to associate their name to people with shitty views.


This is always the way. People define freedom in so many different ways - and its usually a definition which suits ones own world view the most. Free speech, freedom of movement, free abortions (doesn't work as well in English as the Swedish equivalent "fri abort"), freedom of religion. Neither are actually free but freedom is a nice word with a good ring to it so people use it even though it's inaccurate most of the time. And is it freedom of or freedom from? :D

Quote:
Also, I'm not fond of this idea of presenting it as a symmetrical phenomenon or some "return of the pendulum". . .


Not matter if you sympathize with a certain cancellation or not it's still a pendulum. When the right is in power they try to cancel the left. When the left is in power they try to cancel the right. If they do it for the right, or good, reasons is not what I was aiming at. I can sympathize with parts of both movements (I'm not ideologically locked in). But we see the pendulum quite clearly.

Quote:
It's crazy to me that some people have so little self-awareness that they end up thinking that people just pointing out the horrible shit they said or did counts as cancel culture. If just spreading facts about who you are is enough for people to want to have nothing to do with you, maybe you should try looking inward instead of crying about censorship and cancel culture.


It can still be cancel culture even if it is "pointing out the horrible shit they said or did" and this leading to cancellation of the artist. No? And that would be the kind of cancel culture you would support. Right?

It's incredible to me that someone whose posts in this thread have won Bad Faith Bingo with such haste is allowed to continue to just spew this garbage on the regular unimpeded. This thread has been getting derailed by this assclown InnesI and his "both sides" / "but what about the left" garbage since the first page. There is nothing to be gained besides frustration from trying to communicate with someone who is not here to engage in good faith.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:16 am 
 

Yeah the main issue with Innes1's argument is the idea that the "far left" and "far right" deserve equal scrutiny and condemnation for the things they want banned and the reasons they do it, and their general convictions. This kind of shit is why it's exhausting to talk about politics a lot of the time and why it's barely worth it.

No sympathy for D666 if they really are a bunch of Nazis, I dunno. I do know bandcamp seems to have deleted Satan's Host from there - I bought their Celebrations album last year and now the band or the label is just not there apparently.
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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 1436
Location: CHRAWNA, Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:17 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
But Domjord got deleted too and all DsO stuff from Season of Mist only got deleted later. I mean, if the three deleted items from the NoEvDia Bandcamp page feature the same member, I think it's pretty safe to assume what happened there.

Somewhat related, I checked out of curiosity and Mgla is still on there. If they actually are removing bands with questionable histories, they're really doing a crap job at research.

Yeah, this is probably my only concern too. If this is the way they are going, I think the process should be more transparent. It feels a bit arbitrary. I mean, they don't owe anyone an explanation and I don't expect them to do that, but at least they could inform you why an item you bought is no longer available and has been deleted. I payed for a service after all.


100% agree. Whether it's still letting you download the records by keeping them in your account (but no longer publicly available for future purchase), or at least giving a heads up to say "download this before we remove it", there should at least be some sort of notice to the buyer.

I don't recall buying many downloads from the bands that were removed (my DSO stuff is either CD, or stuff that I was planning on potentially buying at some point), so I'm in the clear as far as I know - but for someone who may have purchased multiple downloads from the platform and then had them all removed, I'd say it's pretty understandable why they'd be pissed off - that's very shitty customer service on Bandcamp's part.

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:21 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Yeah the main issue with Innes1's argument is the idea that the "far left" and "far right" deserve equal scrutiny and condemnation for the things they want banned and the reasons they do it, and their general convictions. This kind of shit is why it's exhausting to talk about politics a lot of the time and why it's barely worth it.

My favorite was when he, without a shred of self-awareness, used an online word dictionary as a resource to establish the definition of a social phenomenon co-opted from black people and weaponized by fascists. It's like an onion of stupid.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:02 pm 
 

Of all the lengthy arguments I've seen against "cancelling", that one I found to be quite well-constructed and not at all "in bad faith", whatever that means. What's the problem with it? Do you just not like its conclusion?
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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:08 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Of all the lengthy arguments I've seen against "cancelling", that one I found to be quite well-constructed and not at all "in bad faith", whatever that means. What's the problem with it? Do you just not like its conclusion?

I have already mentioned several points that demonstrate why it is in bad faith, as have others. But here you are, using your ignorance as a weapon as well. You don't know even what it means to argue in bad faith, yet instead of making an effort to listen, you are instead here making snide and dismissive comments against the notion like "whatever that means." It seems as if you are very much captivated by the fascist propaganda that InnesI is regurgitating, which is unfortunate.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:25 pm 
 

I haven't seen any posts in this thread specifically disproving the arguments or saying why they are in bad faith, besides Empyreal's post about false equivalence between the left and right's motives, which does make sense.

Also, I resent being told that I'm captivated by fascist propaganda. It's not true. Could you please not assume things about me?

I would also like to make it clear that I'm not irked by the presence of cancel culture. I think it's necessary to bring awareness to abhorrent viewpoints and make sure they have no place in a humane society. I do feel like it's worth occasionally engaging with the other side of the argument, because it's a great way to change people's minds and bring awareness to issues if it's done right.
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I really don't want power metal riffing to turn into power metal yiffing any time soon.

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:31 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Also, I resent being told that I'm captivated by fascist propaganda. It's not true. Could you please not assume things about me?

InnesI is regurgitating fascist propaganda. You called his argument "quite well-constructed and not at all in bad faith." I am not sure what is untrue about what I said, or what assumptions that I am making.

Your point of contention here seems to be that, for some reason, you are unable to properly identify that InnesI is regurgitating fascist propaganda, in spite of many others users posting with assistances.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 12:33 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Of all the lengthy arguments I've seen against "cancelling", that one I found to be quite well-constructed and not at all "in bad faith", whatever that means. What's the problem with it? Do you just not like its conclusion?


We've written at length on the subject, but if I had to summarize the main issue that many have regarding "cancel culture" as a concept is that it is indeed weaponized by the far-right to victimize themselves. The expression, as it is often used now, has a negative connotation and is often used to divert the attention away from the fact that we're actually talking about racist pieces of shit getting their comeuppance. This thread is a perfect example of exactly this. Instead of actually focusing on the fact that KK is a turd and that Bandcamp were totally in their right to give him the boot, we are digging deeper and deeper into this and getting entangled in words, when it should be very obvious to anyone who isn't arguing in bad faith, that Bandcamp were not only in their right to give Destroyer 666 the boot, but that it's also actually a good thing that they did.

Now if anyone has a compelling point to make to demonstrate that KK is indeed not a racist turd, I am all ears.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:00 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
We've written at length on the subject, but if I had to summarize the main issue that many have regarding "cancel culture" as a concept is that it is indeed weaponized by the far-right to victimize themselves. The expression, as it is often used now, has a negative connotation and is often used to divert the attention away from the fact that we're actually talking about racist pieces of shit getting their comeuppance. This thread is a perfect example of exactly this. Instead of actually focusing on the fact that KK is a turd and that Bandcamp were totally in their right to give him the boot, we are digging deeper and deeper into this and getting entangled in words, when it should be very obvious to anyone who isn't arguing in bad faith, that Bandcamp were not only in their right to give Destroyer 666 the boot, but that it's also actually a good thing that they did.

Now if anyone has a compelling point to make to demonstrate that KK is indeed not a racist turd, I am all ears.

I get that "cancel culture" has a negative connotation surrounding it and is used by the right to victimize themselves, but I think it should be recognized as just that - abhorrent viewpoints getting what they deserve. I don't think the term is invalid, it's just that if people use it to victimize themselves or others, they probably have some abhorrent viewpoints. About what InnesI wondered about if cancel culture is thought of as a good thing by the left: yes, I, for one, think it is.

It's perfectly within the right of private corporations to deny their services to people who propagate harmful ideologies, and I think that falls under the badge of cancelling. It's just not a term that I think we should shy away from.
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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:34 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
I don't think the term is invalid

It is. It's a loaded term co-opted by fascists from black people to use as a weapon. Every time you use it unironically like you are, you legitimize fascists and their violence. It would be excellent to cease doing that.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:39 pm 
 

Are we talking about the term "woke" or "cancel culture"? I know that "woke" originated in the black community and has subsequently taken on a negative connotation thanks to the right. I'm not familiar with the etymology of the term cancel culture.
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I really don't want power metal riffing to turn into power metal yiffing any time soon.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:39 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Yeah the main issue with Innes1's argument is the idea that the "far left" and "far right" deserve equal scrutiny and condemnation for the things they want banned and the reasons they do it, and their general convictions. This kind of shit is why it's exhausting to talk about politics a lot of the time and why it's barely worth it.


This is a fair comment. I'm not really making the argument that they deserve equal scrutiny though I just point out that it's hypocritical to be upset about the phenomenon of cancel culture for one group and then embrace it for another. It's perfectly fine to want to limit destructive tendencies in society but I do prefer people being honest about this being a good thing and accepting that it is happening and it is a good thing. I also, in another thread, called out how I dislike the gut reaction from some of the bands getting cancelled by platforms to complain and victimize themselves. That kind of behaviour is way to common nowadays.

I'm saying that it seems like most people here likes it when a band with far right tendencies (or more) gets removed from different platforms while they at the same time seem to get upset about people calling out cancel culture. My advice is to appropriate the word instead and shift the meaning. The right did so successfully with concepts like politically correctness and woke. The left could easily do the same with something like cancel culture. HeavenlyDuff and Lord_Of_Diamonds I think are onto something if they keep that attitude. Few things are so devastating to an opponent as to when they loose the narrative.

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Of all the lengthy arguments I've seen against "cancelling", that one I found to be quite well-constructed and not at all "in bad faith", whatever that means. What's the problem with it? Do you just not like its conclusion?


Many here don't like differing opinions and get frustrated by it. I try to keep my arguments clear and I try to be nice and civil (although I don't always succeed). I also try to focus on debating with people who respond intelligently. This is why I like HeavenlyDuff. He/she and I do not agree politically but we always have good discussions and it never gets reduced to calling each other fascists or commies or whatever. That is what I enjoy. I nowadays try to respond only to people who actually engage and try to have a good discussion (regardless of political colour). Those whose arguments regress to slurs I try to ignore.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:47 pm 
 

Might be best to move on from debating the merits of the term "cancel culture" and back to the topic at hand, which is about Deströyer 666 and KK's tantrum.

Frankly, we have no idea why Bandcamp took down the page, or even if Bandcamp was responsible for doing so. It could've been the band's label, for whatever reason, and KK just jumped to conclusions. Even if it was Bandcamp, as far as we know, the page got taken down for licensing issues or something completely unrelated. It's a big unknown. Bandcamp is free to do whatever it wishes with its site, and it's not like Deströyer 666 is suddenly without exposure. Honestly, thinking of all the things to be upset by this week, a well-known band losing access to one of its sources of distribution shouldn't be one of them, but that's just me.
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Thexhumed
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 1919
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:57 pm 
 

Destroyer 666 FB wrote:
To whom it may concern:

D666 is no longer on bandcamp, if you have paid money to Bandcamp and failed to download the music, there is unfortunately nothing the band can do about that.

1.We dont recieve money from bandcamp.

2.Take it up with Bannedcamp.

3.Join our Telegram channel at https://t.me/destroyerwolfcult where I will not be addressing these issues in any form whatsoever.

But I will take you through my daily Meditative Hate Training Regime.
Bear in mind,its tough goin, I usually wake at 5am,and start my hating by 6. Then I’ll hate to around 11:30 where upon I’ll pause for a quick breather and resume hating at around 12:30, often Ill hate all the way til dinner time, depending on how hateful Im feeling.
Thats not all.

I also offer the following courses:

* KKs 6 Steps to more Antagonism and Animosity
*KKs Enmity, Enemas and Loathing Today class
*KKs Holistic Hostility and You class.
*KKs Build Back Bitter class.

Join today and become the hater you want to be.

Cheers
KK



Haha, rather funny if you ask me.
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Zdan
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 1:57 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Might be best to move on from debating the merits of the term "cancel culture" and back to the topic at hand, which is about Deströyer 666 and KK's tantrum.

Frankly, we have no idea why Bandcamp took down the page, or even if Bandcamp was responsible for doing so. It could've been the band's label, for whatever reason, and KK just jumped to conclusions. Even if it was Bandcamp, as far as we know, the page got taken down for licensing issues or something completely unrelated. It's a big unknown. Bandcamp is free to do whatever it wishes with its site, and it's not like Deströyer 666 is suddenly without exposure. Honestly, thinking of all the things to be upset by this week, a well-known band losing access to one of its sources of distribution shouldn't be one of them, but that's just me.


THIS! I have been saying this before but - we do not know why Bandcamp suddenly removed D666. It could be label issues, licensing issues, band stuff unrelated to KK or it could be that it is due to KK's behaviour. Generally all of this is speculation and I do not think it will hurt D666 much in the long run. The bands a long history of underground support, lots of albums that very well-liked by fans and therefore an established fanbase.

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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 949
Location: Unknown
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:13 pm 
 

In Die Nacht wrote:
He's as racist as the rest of Europe. Or maybe just Northern Europe. Nah, all of Europe.

But they're not America so it's ok.


So, all of the 746 million people on Europe are racist? Talk about tolerance :roll:

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 3:34 pm 
 

MDL wrote:
In Die Nacht wrote:
He's as racist as the rest of Europe. Or maybe just Northern Europe. Nah, all of Europe.

But they're not America so it's ok.


So, all of the 746 million people on Europe are racist? Talk about tolerance :roll:


Don't feed the troll

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 4:33 pm 
 

I am making this post in spite of a request to turn the thread back to the original topic (about which there admittedly is not much to say, given the lack of any real details) because I feel strongly that there was dangerous misinformation and manipulative, fallacious communication that was left accepted, untouched, and unaddressed.

InnesI wrote:
I'm saying that it seems like most people here likes it when a band with far right tendencies (or more) gets removed from different platforms while they at the same time seem to get upset about people calling out cancel culture.

It's almost as if they are not actually the same phenomenon, and that your confusion about the matter is solely related to your own willful ignorance.

InnesI wrote:
My advice is to appropriate the word instead and shift the meaning. The right did so successfully with concepts like politically correctness and woke. The left could easily do the same with something like cancel culture.

As has been mentioned multiple times: the right already co-opted the term and have been using it for political violence. You are speaking authoritatively and making bizarre suggestions in spite of being demonstrably ignorant of both the past and the present.

InnesI wrote:
Many here don't like differing opinions

Probably the laziest trick in the book. This is a bad faith oversimplification. Paint people who disagree with you as very base, unreasonable creatures who simply cannot handle any sort of differing opinions. Nevermind the laughable implications of this, how it would result in these people absolutely losing it when people expressed different musical tastes, as we're on a forum to talk about music. You can turn literally anything into this, and you purporting that disagreeing about the merits of band's music and disagreeing about the merits of fascist propaganda are the very same is pretty absurd.

InnesI wrote:
I try to be nice and civil

Of course you do, that's part of the whole plan, and this is a very standard tactic. The "moderate centrist" tries to appear nice and civil (which is generally easy, since this is all just a high-school debate club devil's douchebag style exercise for you, where you are comfortably divorced from consequence after you step away from the forum), so that the people who are affected and/or sick of seeing the same regurgitation for the thousandth time probably don't act nice or civil. You count on this to help you sway bystanders into believing your words to be more valid and the words of those who are upset to be less valid.

InnesI wrote:
I also try to focus on debating with people who respond intelligently. This is why I like HeavenlyDuff. He/she and I do not agree politically but we always have good discussions and it never gets reduced to calling each other fascists or commies or whatever. That is what I enjoy. I nowadays try to respond only to people who actually engage and try to have a good discussion (regardless of political colour). Those whose arguments regress to slurs I try to ignore.

You make it clear how you are here to "enjoy" "good discussions" as if it's all for sport. You have inserted yourself into a thread about someone performatively whining about their music being removed from bandcamp for the purpose of derailing the thread into a bunch of whataboutism bullshit about the left.

In spite of how poorly and inflammatory you yourself act right from the get-go, you set up this qualifier of "others must be nice to me and respect what I am saying" and claim that those who don't are not "responding intelligently," where your unique measure of "intelligence" here seems directly correlated upon ability to entertain and engage with your bad faith arguments.

InnesI wrote:
it never gets reduced to calling each other fascists or commies or whatever. [...] Those whose arguments regress to slurs I try to ignore.

Crying that someone is calling you a "slur" when your arguments are pointed out to be fascist propaganda is some pretty wildly self-victimizing stuff. Internally treating accusations of fascism as some four-letter word to signal your turning your brain off instead of as a call to sincerely reassess your own behavior is a frightening manifestation of overinflated ego and willful ignorance.

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Weerwolf
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:19 am
Posts: 1115
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 4:44 pm 
 

I lol'd

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soulonfire
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 1:56 pm
Posts: 279
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:02 pm 
 

I'll go ahead and ask this here. Is there a reason metal is the one genre where being a Nazi and racist is tolerated and even sometimes excused? I don't see that shit in punk or hardcore. Metalheads will legit get pissed if a racist band or a band with a racist member gets booted from a fest or label. No wonder society views us as moronic meatheads.

Back to the topic, KK sounds like a mature, levelheaded individual.
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Thexhumed
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 1919
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:28 pm 
 

By the way, how many of these Nazi vs Anti nazi or whatever threads do we need in this forum? And how some silly joke from Facebook stems into this kind of discussions? Can we have a separate sub-forum for this type of topics? It gets really annoying.
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Last edited by Morrigan on Thu May 26, 2022 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Warned for thread-whining

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doomicus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
Posts: 1261
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:42 pm 
 

Thexhumed wrote:
By the way, how many of these Nazi vs Anti nazi or whatever threads do we need in this forum? And how some silly joke from Facebook stems into this kind of discussions? Can we have a separate sub-forum for this type of topics? It gets really annoying.


If you don't like them and are annoyed by them, just don't read them.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:54 pm 
 

soulonfire wrote:
I'll go ahead and ask this here. Is there a reason metal is the one genre where being a Nazi and racist is tolerated and even sometimes excused? I don't see that shit in punk or hardcore. Metalheads will legit get pissed if a racist band or a band with a racist member gets booted from a fest or label. No wonder society views us as moronic meatheads.


They do exist in other scenes, including punk and hardcore. Rock against communism, a part of the Oi! scene, and very obviously hardcore, is very clearly aligned with neo-nazism and white supremacism. You'll also find white nationalism and white supremacism in some subscenes of neofolk and country.

These things are quite easy to look up, and doing so would definitly help you avoid making such uninformed statements in the future.

Thexhumed wrote:
By the way, how many of these Nazi vs Anti nazi or whatever threads do we need in this forum? And how some silly joke from Facebook stems into this kind of discussions? Can we have a separate sub-forum for this type of topics? It gets really annoying.


There are 20+ other threads on the 1st page, and you willingly clicked on the one thread about a guy who's clearly a racist being booted from Bandcamp. You have no one but yourself to blame if you're annoyed.

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wone21r
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 7:09 pm 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
But Domjord got deleted too and all DsO stuff from Season of Mist only got deleted later. I mean, if the three deleted items from the NoEvDia Bandcamp page feature the same member, I think it's pretty safe to assume what happened there.


Right, I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is...... pourquoi?

Somewhat related, I checked out of curiosity and Mgla is still on there. If they actually are removing bands with questionable histories, they're really doing a crap job at research.


That's the thing, Bandcamp isn't doing this actively. They are heavily under resourced and rely on reports from the public.
Their TOS includes the following as being unacceptable: "threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, deceptive, fraudulent, invasive of another's privacy, tortious, obscene, offensive, or profane;".
They don't have an automated system for TOS infringements, bands being removed for breaches comes from them being reported.

Nokturnal Mortum was mentioned earlier, they're a good example. Here's where they went:
https://i.ibb.co/PF0mvrB/nmif.png

That's some additional context for you. Not sure how much it really matters, as I'm not interested in the "cancel culture or not" talk, but it's good to have the facts and details out there.

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soulonfire
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 1:56 pm
Posts: 279
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 7:26 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
soulonfire wrote:
I'll go ahead and ask this here. Is there a reason metal is the one genre where being a Nazi and racist is tolerated and even sometimes excused? I don't see that shit in punk or hardcore. Metalheads will legit get pissed if a racist band or a band with a racist member gets booted from a fest or label. No wonder society views us as moronic meatheads.


They do exist in other scenes, including punk and hardcore. Rock against communism, a part of the Oi! scene, and very obviously hardcore, is very clearly aligned with neo-nazism and white supremacism. You'll also find white nationalism and white supremacism in some subscenes of neofolk and country.

These things are quite easy to look up, and doing so would definitly help you avoid making such uninformed statements in the future.


I never said it didn't exist, I said it's not tolerated. If a RAC band gets canned from a label or a show, you aren't getting tons of punkers whining about cancel culture and opposing viewpoints not being tolerated. They'll be happy to see that shit kicked out. Whereas in metal, even supposedly normal metalheads will defend a NSBM band from getting banned or dropped.
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Use Baloo and calypso music.

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FLIPPITYFLOOP
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm
Posts: 1436
Location: CHRAWNA, Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:36 pm 
 

wone21r wrote:
FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
But Domjord got deleted too and all DsO stuff from Season of Mist only got deleted later. I mean, if the three deleted items from the NoEvDia Bandcamp page feature the same member, I think it's pretty safe to assume what happened there.


Right, I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is...... pourquoi?

Somewhat related, I checked out of curiosity and Mgla is still on there. If they actually are removing bands with questionable histories, they're really doing a crap job at research.


That's the thing, Bandcamp isn't doing this actively. They are heavily under resourced and rely on reports from the public.
Their TOS includes the following as being unacceptable: "threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, deceptive, fraudulent, invasive of another's privacy, tortious, obscene, offensive, or profane;".
They don't have an automated system for TOS infringements, bands being removed for breaches comes from them being reported.

Nokturnal Mortum was mentioned earlier, they're a good example. Here's where they went:
https://i.ibb.co/PF0mvrB/nmif.png

That's some additional context for you. Not sure how much it really matters, as I'm not interested in the "cancel culture or not" talk, but it's good to have the facts and details out there.


No worries, I don't have the energy to get involved in this massive conversation either.

But thanks, that does provide more context. There could be other reasons involved as well (such as licensing as mentioned above), but if this is another way then I guess it's only a matter of time before Bandcamp pulls the plug on other bands.

If those are their guidelines, it does make me wonder how long bands like Fluids, Pissgrave and other goregrind bands that put actual dead bodies on their album covers will last on the platform. Even with Profound Lore uploading Posthumous Humiliation with the censored album cover, you can still see that shit in the merch photos. But this is another rabbit hole.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:46 pm 
 

SolstafirAquilaria wrote:
truth bombs

:nods: Always refreshing when someone else sees the disingenuous gish gallop for what it is.
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Inspector_Satan
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:48 pm
Posts: 657
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 9:49 pm 
 

One thing that I never see mentioned in this endless outrage is the company in question. Bandcamp started in one of the most progressive areas in one of the most progressive states in the country and they have never made a secret of their political leanings, (a cursory Wikipedia scan shows donations to trans-rights funds and collaborations with left wing publications.) Given this it doesn't fit with me to reduce them enforcing personally held beliefs to a platform they built to simple "cancel culture."

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:22 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
SolstafirAquilaria wrote:
truth bombs

:nods: Always refreshing when someone else sees the disingenuous gish gallop for what it is.

Any chance of taking out the trash? Dude is a known quantity (to the point of proudly showcasing all of the causes he's devil's douchebagged for or whatever the hell that trash heap of a signature is) and I've watched him do this shit for literal years. No one has fun with his horseshit besides him. He actively makes threads worse by pulling this routine in them. It really, really sucks.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5158
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:34 pm 
 

Inspector_Satan wrote:
One thing that I never see mentioned in this endless outrage is the company in question. Bandcamp started in one of the most progressive areas in one of the most progressive states in the country and they have never made a secret of their political leanings, (a cursory Wikipedia scan shows donations to trans-rights funds and collaborations with left wing publications.) Given this it doesn't fit with me to reduce them enforcing personally held beliefs to a platform they built to simple "cancel culture."


I also feel uneasy with the use of "cancel culture" here. They are just a company acting in accordance with their values and beliefs. That's not cancel culture.

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Lythronax
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:54 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:58 pm 
 

FLIPPITYFLOOP wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Deathspell was actually removed from Bandcamp because of Daniel Rostén, AKA Arioch, AKA Mortuus.


Huh? You sure you don't mean Mikko Aspa?


Mikko Aspa doesn't seem to be actually banned from Bandcamp yet. This is one of his solo projects: https://grunt-finland.bandcamp.com

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AxeCapitol
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 pm
Posts: 589
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2022 11:51 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Are we talking about the term "woke" or "cancel culture"? I know that "woke" originated in the black community and has subsequently taken on a negative connotation thanks to the right. I'm not familiar with the etymology of the term cancel culture.


You have a very verbose style of writing. Are you using a thesaurus to substitute words in order to sound more intelligent than you really are? Christ man. Pretentious as shit - no doubt inspired by your infatuation of Nazi bands who attempt to use “intelligent” sounding language - many of whom do not have English as their first language.

Transparent. And sad.

There’s no defense. It’s simple. Nazis are bad. Racism is pathological. There’s no equivalency between the far right and far left. Or moderate right and moderate left. One is way more evil than the other. Guess which one!

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:10 am 
 

I was genuinely interested in the term's etymology and I'm not "infatuated" by Nazi bands. If I made any comment in this thread that made it seem like I am a fan of them, then I would like to retract it now because it isn't true. I don't listen to that music or enjoy it, much less the one being discussed here.
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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:28 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
Might be best to move on from debating the merits of the term "cancel culture" and back to the topic at hand, which is about Deströyer 666 and KK's tantrum.


SolstafirAquilaria wrote:
It's incredible to me that someone whose posts in this thread have won Bad Faith Bingo with such haste is allowed to continue to just spew this garbage on the regular unimpeded. This thread has been getting derailed by this assclown InnesI and his "both sides" / "but what about the left" garbage since the first page. There is nothing to be gained besides frustration from trying to communicate with someone who is not here to engage in good faith.


Based on both these posts I choose not to reply to your latest post. (1) You say you're not interested in discussing it and (2) if I do continue I imagine I'll get warned for straying off topic or that my reply will be deleted for the same reason (so that the critique against me will still be seen but my reply will be removed). If you'd like we can do this in PM form.

Lythronax wrote:

Mikko Aspa doesn't seem to be actually banned from Bandcamp yet. This is one of his solo projects: https://grunt-finland.bandcamp.com


There probably isn't any strategy to this. My guess is that they work based on people informing them stuff. Someone brought up the Destroyer 666 thing and they acted on it. No one has probably said anything to them about Mikko Aspa, hence they don't know about it. I doubt bandcamp has some sort of team of people doing their own research into what bands are questionable in regards to their policies.
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Ad hominem

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SolstafirAquilaria
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:40 am
Posts: 333
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 5:09 pm 
 

InnesI wrote:
Based on both these posts I choose not to reply to your latest post. (1) You say you're not interested in discussing it and (2) if I do continue I imagine I'll get warned for straying off topic or that my reply will be deleted for the same reason (so that the critique against me will still be seen but my reply will be removed). If you'd like we can do this in PM form.

See, you actually shouldn't have anything to say to me.

You should click and read the resource that I provided in my post. You should realize that you were peddling a false, alternate history and reality that empowers fascists and their violence. You should realize that you were so sure of yourself when you were doing so, in spite of being informed that you were mistaken. You should realize that instead of doing the most basic of research by searching up "cancel culture co-opt fascist violence" or your word string of choice and elucidating yourself, you instead chose to dig your heels in and insist that you were right. You should realize that you are a disingenuous, anti-intellectual, and dangerously useful idiot for fascists and should shut the fuck up forever.

This goes for all of you dumbshit assholes who continually pull this garbage. Fuck off with your fascist bullshit, it's not welcome here.

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InnesI
The Goat Fucker

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 2187
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 5:43 pm 
 

soulonfire wrote:
I never said it didn't exist, I said it's not tolerated. If a RAC band gets canned from a label or a show, you aren't getting tons of punkers whining about cancel culture and opposing viewpoints not being tolerated. They'll be happy to see that shit kicked out. Whereas in metal, even supposedly normal metalheads will defend a NSBM band from getting banned or dropped.


As for the punk scene I think it's due to the political parts of it being so separated. The politics usually mean more in punk than it does in metal. The scenes of the left and the right have been in conflict since their inceptions so while they musically belong to the same genre the audiences are very divided. Metal however was never really divided in regards to politics. Metal always were antinomian in one way or another as well so a lot of weird stuff has been accepted because of that.

I don't follow the neofolk scene but from what I gather the political landscape there leans to the right (at least with the symbolism) but they have left wing tendency as well and the fanbase is quite mixed where they listen to both heavily right wing bands as well as left wing bands.
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I've also been called a satanist, communist, right wing, nazi-apologist, conservative dipshit, muslim (lover), PC, feminist, neoliberal, boot licker, verbal masturbator and an eternal low-key fascist enabler! Please add your projection too.
Ad hominem

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Tiam Kara
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:28 am
Posts: 118
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 7:23 pm 
 

soulonfire wrote:
I'll go ahead and ask this here. Is there a reason metal is the one genre where being a Nazi and racist is tolerated and even sometimes excused?


Neofolk music actually has a pretty bad nazi problem, too.
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