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robotiq
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:08 am
Posts: 213
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:09 am 
 

Red_Death wrote:
Orphaned Land fits the bill in my opinion.

It's a bit surprising to me no one mentioned them, must be that their popularity has waned to a considerable extent over the years (the number of reviews here would support this notion).


Yeah they were the first band I thought of in relation to this question too. Like you, I thought they were pretty popular too - but maybe not.

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Demon Fang
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:42 am
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:15 am 
 

Orphaned Land were fuckin' massive when Mabool came out, and even the follow-up got some press here and there. But yeah, their popularity definitely waned over the years. I honestly forget they even exist anymore - like, maybe they didn't disappear like magic after all.

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Waltz_of_Ghouls
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
Posts: 707
Location: Quebec City, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:32 am 
 

One thing I'm really tired of is the overused trope of "light half, dark half" album artwork. Covers such as Gamma Ray's No World Order, Stratovarius' Infinite, Sonata Arctica's Silence, Nocturnal Rites' Shadowland, James Labrie's Beautiful Shade... It always looks goofy and cliché. I see it used mostly in power and prog metal. It's not as tiring as another Ed Repka thrash cover, but still.
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21stCenturySkippyMan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am
Posts: 28
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:40 am 
 

Way too many generic bands recycling sounds that have been done to death over the last 30-40 years.

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Ace_Rimmer
Veteran

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 3206
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:07 pm 
 

21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Way too many generic bands recycling sounds that have been done to death over the last 30-40 years.


That is every single genre, even "progressive" stuff.

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Benedict Donald
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 1698
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:20 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
have your short intro track be a little window into what you're getting into, like so:



"Salt" is a masterpiece. A perfect 10/10.

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21stCenturySkippyMan
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 am
Posts: 28
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:02 am 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Way too many generic bands recycling sounds that have been done to death over the last 30-40 years.


That is every single genre, even "progressive" stuff.


No one said the critique had to be exclusive to metal...

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Ace_Rimmer
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 3206
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:59 am 
 

21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
21stCenturySkippyMan wrote:
Way too many generic bands recycling sounds that have been done to death over the last 30-40 years.


That is every single genre, even "progressive" stuff.


No one said the critique had to be exclusive to metal...


True.

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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1938
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:25 pm 
 

I think there's something to be said for tradition. Not in the usual, conservative sense like boomers do ("all music nowadays is shit, I only listen to bands that were new and big when I was young"), but in the sense of having a genuine appreciation for past music. It's interesting to see how metal develops, new bands ripping off stuff from the past but also adding their own personal touch, however subtle. I like some experimental bands too, but it all depends on the approach. Bands like Deafheaven, Liturgy etc. don't care so much about the music as much as they care about "deconstructing" and "transcending" the style in a tokenistic gesture. For them it's not so much about pushing boundaries, experimentation as much as it is about asserting one's uniqueness ("Look at me, I exist!") Don't care for that attitude. But Dark Tribe, Graal, Lykathea Aflame, Blut Aus Nord and the like all lead their genres out of the classics into different musical areas... the continuity is there but there's something else happening, there's niches that are out there.

Here's one more critique I have: there should be fewer metal bands from non-English speaking countries singing in English. A different language can change the entire vibe of the music when it is sung, not to mention you're automatically speaking more closely to the culture you and your local audience is from when you sing in your native language. Mortal Kombat are by far the most popular metal band in ex-Yugoslavia but on the Anglophone internet they're unheard of - because of their Serbian lyrics. And let me tell you, "Posto sam metalac" is a classic song to sing along to as much as something like "Breaking the Law" is, when you understand the language.
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Durag
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:51 pm
Posts: 193
Location: Republic Of Ireland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:07 pm 
 

Sepulchrave wrote:
I think there's something to be said for tradition. Not in the usual, conservative sense like boomers do ("all music nowadays is shit, I only listen to bands that were new and big when I was young"), but in the sense of having a genuine appreciation for past music. It's interesting to see how metal develops, new bands ripping off stuff from the past but also adding their own personal touch, however subtle. I like some experimental bands too, but it all depends on the approach. Bands like Deafheaven, Liturgy etc. don't care so much about the music as much as they care about "deconstructing" and "transcending" the style in a tokenistic gesture. For them it's not so much about pushing boundaries, experimentation as much as it is about asserting one's uniqueness ("Look at me, I exist!") Don't care for that attitude. But Dark Tribe, Graal, Lykathea Aflame, Blut Aus Nord and the like all lead their genres out of the classics into different musical areas... the continuity is there but there's something else happening, there's niches that are out there.


I agree with Liturgy, sounds like they heard black metal once and just wanted to deconstruct the genre and used it as a base template. I don't mind some of their stuff but it sounds a lot of the time like random genres put together for the sake of it, rather than actually creating something new or a cohesive sound. Sounds like they're deliberately trying to be as provocative as possible, for example the trap style beats on some of the songs just made me laugh when I heard them. There are far more interesting bands and artists pushing black metal into new and unknown territories all the while keeping the spirit of it alive, such as the ones you mentioned, without resorting so silly gimmicks

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5952
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:08 pm 
 

There are two kinds of avant-garde bands: The first kind that genuinely love all kinds of music and want to incorporate as many genres as possible into their own, and the second kind who deeply abhor the concept of listening to music for pleasure and want to make it as complex and hard to listen to as possible.

Liturgy always feels like an example of the latter to me. I respect them doing something different but every time I try them out, I'm just sitting there like "Okay, do you even LIKE music?"
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:42 pm 
 

Both Liturgy and Deafheaven are really interesting to me. I dunno if it's necessarily some kinda "oh we're just doing this for the sake of it" - both bands I think are just approaching things from an entirely other viewpoint is all. I get a lot of passion out of that stuff. Maybe not stuff I'd play every day but I dig it anyway. White Ward may be a good more grounded alternative. Very different approach but also definitively rooted in metal riffs that speak more to genre fans.

In terms of there being a place for tradition - well, on the one hand, I'd love to see more bands really integrating the blues or sounds from The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Velvet Underground and the likes. That'd be great. They should integrate the hook sensibility and songwriting more. The way those bands use sounds and pop hooks and also experimented with what little they had back then in this really freeing hippie sort of way. Many modern bands trying to sound old school just don't have the songwriting sense and ability these days and it comes off more like kids playing dress up.

On the other hand I just don't like when those arguments about tradition having a place are used to shout down newer experimentation. It'll all be very subjective anyway.
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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1938
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:43 pm 
 

I'm not making the argument that those bands are weird for the sake of it. They definitely have some musical interest (though not for me) and of course they find it meaningful to create in this way, I'm not accusing them of simply provoking old-fashioned metalheads. But I can't shake off the vibe of tokenism in Liturgy and Deafheaven's music, as if their influences are there simply as part of a pet philosophical/"art student" project. Other people may find this artistically worthwhile and important, but in my case it's not what I listen to the genre for.

And yeah certain people will always see any attempt at thinking outside the box as an attack on their beloved style of music. I imagine some metalheads thought Celtic Frost were pretentious occult rubbish when they started off, but now it's hard to imagine metal as a whole without their influence somewhere along the line.
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wizard_of_bore wrote:
I drank a lot of cheap beer and ate three Nacho BellGrandes. A short time later I took a massive messy shit and I swear it sounded just like the drums on Dirty Window from Metallica's St Anger album.

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Pizzasmasher
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:59 pm 
 

There should be MUCH more bands exploring a wider variety of metal in their sound. I find myself often in a positive way surprised when i hear a riff, or even a whole song, that doesnt 100 Percent fully fit into the actual genre of the band; wasnt that, what did make Metallica in their prime so good? or in a certain way as well Bands like Death, Carcass, Melechesh. Mix it. One doesnt even need to add "non-metal-elements" but you dont have to play in 3 different "projects" for all your ideas, when the best songs of all of them together on one album would make a really good one. This leads me to an approach of metal one could maybe base somewhere between spirit cabinet, newer darkthrone, some Nachtmystium, molten chains etc. I think there is a lot of potential into the idea of metal without boundaries so to speak. Its not like i dont like "pure" speed, or death Metal or what not. But in most cases i get tired after two or three songs; "one" simply knows exactly how the rest of the album will sound. A "rythmic" approach is as well underrated, what i mean with this could be heared i.e. on "isolated" by morgoth.

Metal isnt as "wild" as it is often described. Sadly only a small percentage of metal really feels "crazy", dark or truly aggressive (from the above mentioned bands i.e. some songs of spirit cabinet falls into that category; i also like some stuff rom very old messiah, or mefisto and destruction that feels like they are truly about to "lose it" while playing...)

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Hexenmacht46290
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 672
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:44 pm 
 

I’ll agree with you, that there needs to be more dynamics, in writing an album, not just a song. If you’re just going to do one thing, you’d better do that one thing really well. Because you’re going to get compared, to the all-time classics, who did that one thing. If you have some more variety, you don’t sound just like the all-time classics, so I’ll be less likely to compare you to them.

Although, many of the all-time classics actually had a good amount of variety, on their albums.
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LilTito
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:44 am 
 

I've yet to hear about ONE band that "does things unnecessarily complex" whatever that means..

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
Posts: 3553
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:07 am 
 

LilTito wrote:
I've yet to hear about ONE band that "does things unnecessarily complex" whatever that means..


The funny thing is that prog metal has a reputation for supposedly being wanky and overly complex, but a lot of it is relatively restrained compared to that presupposition. And some of the most complex and dense bands are often some of the most lauded even by critics, like Spiral Architect and Spastic Ink. Outside of solos, the average death, thrash, or even power metal band often has more notes flying around. It's tech death that actually embodies that far more aptly. A band like Brain Drill comes to mind. Even the latest Archspire, lots of notes, couldn't remember a single one of them by the end.

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~Guest 334273
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 2513
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:30 am 
 

To be fair so many bands have songwriting problems to an extent, even bigger ones:

there are so many cases of songs stretched out for minutes with riffs repeated way too much or too much riffs repeated way too little, overlong intros and excessively extended instrumental sections, puzzling structures and odd transitions that kill the flow of the song... Not to mention the stubborness that extreme genres have of using growls/screams everywhere even when the music desperately calls for cleans.
Most of those elements are common in every genre, not just prog/tech stuff, even if those get called out the most.

I've grown used to those quirks and they don't bother me, but i can't really pretend they don't exist

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:13 am 
 

"Unnecessarily complex" (or anything else deemed "unnecessary") and "trying too hard" are just criticisms people seem to say when they just don't know how else to describe music. Those things can pretty much mean anything. Mostly it just means "I didn't care for it." Just say that.
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Demon Fang
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:42 am
Posts: 349
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:17 am 
 

Unnecessarily complex is something like Spiral Architect where, for all the complex "I really wish I was Psychotic Waltz" power/prog riffs they tried to offer, all anybody cares to remember them for is that they named their band after a Black Sabbath song about 99% of anybody within the vicinity of giving a fuck would rather listen to.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:56 am 
 

I remember thinking Spiral Architect was pretty fucking cool.

I just mean that "unnecessary" is about as purely subjective as it gets so far as critiques go. That's a measure seeming to presume art has some kind of natural limit it should adhere to. It's all just opinions when it comes to that. It doesn't tell me anything, really, about what the music is like.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:30 pm 
 

Demon Fang wrote:
Unnecessarily complex is something like Spiral Architect where, for all the complex "I really wish I was Psychotic Waltz" power/prog riffs they tried to offer, all anybody cares to remember them for is that they named their band after a Black Sabbath song about 99% of anybody within the vicinity of giving a fuck would rather listen to.


For me they're one of the examples where it works. I've been listening to that album off and on for over two decades and it keeps drawing me back to it. But clearly not everything satisfies everyone.

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Oxenkiller
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 3361
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:35 pm 
 

The word "OF" spelled "OV."

What's up with that?

And the proliferation of baby-tantrum vocals in nearly every new band. I don't mind gruff/death growly vocals, or clean vocals. But some of these vocalists sound like a toddler having a meltdown at the grocery store.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:02 pm 
 

What's an example of that?

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4032
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:28 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What's an example of that?

Behemoth, Machine Head, etc.

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EndorphinMachine
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri May 28, 2021 9:18 am
Posts: 21
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:32 am 
 

Rodman wrote:
For me, it's veteran bands releasing self-titled records at the midpoint or late into their career.

This is possible the most "first world problem" I've ever heard.

You're totally right!

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CreepingDeath16
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:49 am
Posts: 506
Location: Hyperborea
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:55 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
The word "OF" spelled "OV."

What's up with that?

Most often it's used in order to appear obscure and occult, and usually in tandem with K's instead of C's, V's instead of U's, Y's instead of I's, VV's instead of W's etc. with lots of Ye Olde English. 'Tis krynge as fvkk.
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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 421
Location: The Summerlands
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:35 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What's an example of that?

Behemoth, Machine Head, etc.


This is interesting. I woulda thought you'd say stuff like Children of Bodom instead of fucking Behemoth; love both bands, but Alexi really did sound like a toddler throwing a fit, especially on the early stuff.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:00 am 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
What's an example of that?

Behemoth, Machine Head, etc.


This is interesting. I woulda thought you'd say stuff like Children of Bodom instead of fucking Behemoth; love both bands, but Alexi really did sound like a toddler throwing a fit, especially on the early stuff.


I'm hoping the person who made that claim will respond with a specific track. If your toddler sounds like this you might want to see a doctor.

Spoiler: show

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Crossover_Kid
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:03 pm
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:03 am 
 

Using the merciful Fate US tour as an example. The merch is a damn rip-off, a Tshirt is $40 and a hoodie is $80, the damn hoodie costs more than the show ticket.

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1501
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:53 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
The word "OF" spelled "OV."

What's up with that?


It's an affectation ultimately stemming from 80's Chaos Magic, in particular "thee temple ov psychick youth"
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Hexenmacht46290
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
Posts: 672
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:24 am 
 

Crossover_Kid wrote:
Using the merciful Fate US tour as an example. The merch is a damn rip-off, a Tshirt is $40 and a hoodie is $80, the damn hoodie costs more than the show ticket.

Was this tour at larger venues? Because I’ve heard that theaters take a cut of the merch money, and stadiums take an even bigger one, forcing the band to raise the price.
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Slater922
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 1787
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:57 am 
 

Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
Crossover_Kid wrote:
Using the merciful Fate US tour as an example. The merch is a damn rip-off, a Tshirt is $40 and a hoodie is $80, the damn hoodie costs more than the show ticket.

Was this tour at larger venues? Because I’ve heard that theaters take a cut of the merch money, and stadiums take an even bigger one, forcing the band to raise the price.

It looks like much of the Mercyful Fate tour is being held in large stadiums from the videos I've seen, so that's where the high prices are coming from. I'd personally just get them much cheaper online.
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