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TheCloudMinder
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 9:16 pm
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:20 pm 
 

So, first of all, I don't want anyone to think that I condone nazism, because I don't. I only want to point out that it's possible to enjoy the music of a nazi/white supremacist band without supporting their ideological cause.

Empyreal wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I can listen to music by nazis or communists


I never really vibe with connecting the two myself. Say what you will about the past countries or leaders or whatever, but I'll play some communist or far Left bands any day. Not the same to me.


Communism has led to the deaths of millions of people, and Stalin was every bit as awful as Hitler. Don't you see the hypocrisy in saying we shouldn't tolerate nazi bands but you're ok with tolerating bands that push a far-left agenda?

Quote:
Fascist babies like you never have anything unique to say.


I think you're a coward hiding behind a keyboard, like most liberal pussies.


Last edited by Morrigan on Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Banned for being a Nazi-defending, fascist crybaby piece of shit

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1424
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:21 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Still, nobody is sending the Spanish Inquisition to your place just because you have a full hard drive of Tank Genocide's shit.

Spoiler: show
Even if nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

I didn't expect that. But then again, nobody does.
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Benedict Donald
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:30 pm 
 

TheCloudMinder wrote:
Communism has led to the deaths of millions of people, and Stalin was every bit as awful as Hitler. Don't you see the hypocrisy in saying we shouldn't tolerate nazi bands but you're ok with tolerating bands that push a far-left agenda?


Is it not more accurate to ascribe Stalin's murder of millions to totalitarianism and not communism?

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1424
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:32 pm 
 

TheCloudMinder wrote:
Don't you see the hypocrisy in saying we shouldn't tolerate nazi bands but you're ok with tolerating bands that push a far-left agenda?

These things are not the same. Nazis want to exterminate everyone who's not light-skinned and of Germanic descent. Far-left does not mean Stalin. It doesn't even mean the USSR in general. "The left agenda" is the desire to create a world where no one has to be afraid of being treated as a second-class citizen in any way because of their skin color, gender, or sexual orientation. It's the desire to make a world where there is genuine opportunity for everyone to move up in the world and not be stuck at the bottom because the system works against them, and where people don't have to be bankrupted for getting their lives and wellbeings saved by doctors. Nearly everything about the left is the polar opposite of the far right, with the only superficial resemblance being some violent means that both sides occasionally use to achieve their ends. But it's far more justifiable to punch a racist than it is to punch a black person, and if you think that the two are equivalent regardless of intent and context, then you lack empathy, understanding of context, and genuine support for anti-bigotry and social justice. This is not up for debate.

TheCloudMinder wrote:
So, first of all, I don't want anyone to think that I condone nazism, because I don't. I only want to point out that it's possible to enjoy the music of a nazi/white supremacist band without supporting their ideological cause.

You cannot say that. You cannot hold that opinion. You cannot say that you enjoy Nazi bands and then say you're not fine with Nazism, because those two things are logically contradictory. It makes zero sense that you would be genuinely anti-Nazi, yet make excuses when it shows up in the music you listen to.
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Waltz_of_Ghouls
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec City, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:54 pm 
 

CloudMinder is obviously playing the 'enlightened centrist'. but it's very easy to see that he's quite OK with the far-right and other fascist trash. More tolerant of that than he is of anything left of center it seems.
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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:55 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
TheCloudMinder wrote:
Communism has led to the deaths of millions of people, and Stalin was every bit as awful as Hitler. Don't you see the hypocrisy in saying we shouldn't tolerate nazi bands but you're ok with tolerating bands that push a far-left agenda?


Is it not more accurate to ascribe Stalin's murder of millions to totalitarianism and not communism?


Yes.

And even if we were to debate if Stalin was a communist or not, he still does not represent Communism as an ideology. Hence my previous post on the subject. Equating Communism and Nazism because Mao or Stalin were violent dictators makes zero sense from a political ideology standpoint. But Nazism was a state ideology, it was the ideology of Hitler and his accolytes. Hitler represents Nazism, but Stalin doesn't represent Communism.

Anyone arguing that Rage Against The Machine is the equivalent of Absurd is full of shit and completely 100% wrong, regardless of what you think of Communism as an ideology, or where you stand regarding the political opinions of RATM.

I'm entirely open to debatting Communism and if it's a viable system or not, but people making shitty comparions of it with Nazism have a terrible understanding of political ideologies altogether.

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In_Zane
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:10 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
I'm entirely open to debatting Communism and if it's a viable system or not,

It is, if you remove the human aspect of it. :D
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:27 pm 
 

TheCloudMinder wrote:

Communism has led to the deaths of millions of people, and Stalin was every bit as awful as Hitler. Don't you see the hypocrisy in saying we shouldn't tolerate nazi bands but you're ok with tolerating bands that push a far-left agenda?


Pretty much everything you're saying I said, going back pages and pages ago to the stuff about "defending music" or whatever, I explained exactly what I meant by it. Fascist little pukes aren't renowned for reading ability though. I probably shouldn't have even bothered doing this post. It's just crazy how much bad faith arguing goes on online. It doesn't even matter what you say - somebody'll just quote a snippet and read it wrong.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:29 pm 
 

TheCloudMinder wrote:
I will speak up.


No you won't.
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MDL
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:56 pm 
 

Cirrus uncinus wrote:
I adore Nightwish's HUMAN. NATURE. album. Disc 1 is some perfectly fine symphonic pop-rock or whatever, and Disc 2 is quality score-lite orchestral music to my ears (always found the hate metalheads have against that suite really funny). I can understand why people call the album - or Nightwish in their current state - barely metal or lame, though.


Even though there's an evident bias and hate against bands with women on the vocals or symphonic metal bands in general, I would say the negative reception of that album in special might be because it furthered away from what the public was expecting from a Nightwish record. I mean, it's always good to take a step up and experiment, but in a harmonized way, so it doesn't sound so unbalanced, which definitely didn't happen with Human Nature. Not saying it would be better off if the album never existed or such. Everything is an experience and many surely find joy on it.

For example, Job for a Cowboy went from straight myspace deathcore to progressive death metal with their last album. The music on both phases is notably different, but you could still see one of their old fans vibbing to "Sun Eater", as core and traditional elements from the band's music were still preserved and then, developed.

At least, this is my personal take on it.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:59 pm 
 

On a somewhat related subject, I think Panopticon is one of the best black metal projects right now, if not of all time.

Austin Lunn is not only a great multi-instrumentalist and composer, but he also brings a breath of fresh air to a scene that is otherwise aligned way too much on far-right ideologies, or at the very least, too comfortable and complacent with far-right ideologies. His lyricism is resolutely based of a left-wing perspective on history and politics, but also on our relationship and connection the land and it's conservation.

Panopticon's discography is amazing, but I'm particularly fond of Autumn Eternal, Kentucky, Roads to the North and the 2021 album .​.​.​and Again into the Light.

I'm unsure as if this is an unpopular opinion here, as MA seems to like Lunn's work altogether. But I guess my take that he is one of the best musicians of the entire genre, and that black metal should strive to be more like Panopticon might be. I don't know.

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Speed Metal Terror
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:14 pm
Posts: 424
Location: Sleeping Under Tartarus
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:14 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I can listen to music by nazis or communists


I never really vibe with connecting the two myself. Say what you will about the past countries or leaders or whatever, but I'll play some communist or far Left bands any day. Not the same to me.


I'm not here to argue political philosophies which is properly discussed in the other forum, but the body count of communist regimens is staggering. And its core ideology is fundamentally opposed to my views. I view them both as murderous totalitarian ideologies and I avoid music that is based on either ideology.


I find it humorous that Nazis and Communist sympathizers think this music would still be allowed under totalitarianism.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:19 pm 
 

I just don't support anyone being able to be a billionaire and want workers to have a much larger slice of the economy, more autonomy, etc. That's it.

The Nightwish Human Nature album wasn't great by any means, but still far better than any of the Annette stuff.
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Footless
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:59 am
Posts: 167
Location: Whiterun Barracks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:22 pm 
 

Slater922 wrote:
SmallPoxie wrote:
Summoning sucks, I forgot that one

But what about Minas Morgul?! :???:


Minas Morgul... :panda: :metal:
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4784
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:35 pm 
 

Speed Metal Terror wrote:
I find it humorous that Nazis and Communist sympathizers think this music would still be allowed under totalitarianism.


To say nothing of how, for Nazis, the entire black metal stage getup (you know, face paint, makeup, nail polish) would get you written off as a "degenerate" before the music was even in question.

And yeah, Panopticon is great. First works were a little shaky but he really came into his own when he started adding the folk elements. Still disappointed I didn't get a chance to meet him when I stopped by Hammerheart Brewing (the brewery he runs with his brother in law) a few years ago.
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Forever Underground
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:35 am
Posts: 224
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:59 pm 
 

Footless wrote:
Slater922 wrote:
SmallPoxie wrote:
Summoning sucks, I forgot that one

But what about Minas Morgul?! :???:


Minas Morgul... :panda: :metal:

Ok I haven't listened to all of Summoning's discography, there are albums I like more (Old Morning Dawn) and others I like less (Stronghold) but Minas Morgul is by far the one I've listened to the most, and one of the albums I've listened to the most in my life in general to try to understand what so many people see in it and even to this day I'm still unable to connect with it, I practically know the album from memory and it is unable to provoke the slightest reaction in me. Does anyone else have this problem with this album in particular?

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:05 pm 
 

Ambient music, or ambience-focused music if you will, will always be divise. Summoning is no exception. Ambient black metal, drone, ambient noise, etc. it's all very different to most other kind of music because it's not melody or rhythm driven. There is no groove to latch on, no strong rhythmic structure. So yeah, a lot of people don't get into that kind of music, and it's fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people dismiss all of it as lazy music or "boring". God! Do I hate it when people's main argument against drone is "It's boring, there is nothing going on." Makes my eyes roll so hard I lose balance.

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Ace_Rimmer
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:00 pm 
 

The closest I can get to ambient black metal is Darkspace, which isn't really ambient though it feels that way to me.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:37 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
The closest I can get to ambient black metal is Darkspace, which isn't really ambient though it feels that way to me.


Darkspace is truly amazing. It fascinates me that they make this kind of black metal work so well. Tobias Möckl's work in general is just something else entirely. I love what he does with Paysage d'hiver as well.

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Footless
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Location: Whiterun Barracks
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:49 pm 
 

Forever Underground wrote:
Ok I haven't listened to all of Summoning's discography, there are albums I like more (Old Morning Dawn) and others I like less (Stronghold) but Minas Morgul is by far the one I've listened to the most, and one of the albums I've listened to the most in my life in general to try to understand what so many people see in it and even to this day I'm still unable to connect with it, I practically know the album from memory and it is unable to provoke the slightest reaction in me. Does anyone else have this problem with this album in particular?


In my experience, it’s much of the lyrics that blow my mind when it comes to Summoning. To me, Tolkien is somewhat of a semi-religion, and I imagine that people who aren’t interested in Tolkien may not find the same interest in the music.
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MDL
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:31 pm 
 

I honestly dislike ambient music. I mean, it's so boring and there's really nothing going on in here.

eheh just kidding.
In fact, I do like dark ambient, folk ambient and ritual ambient music as well. Dungeon synth is pretty good, as well. The thing is, it's a style of music I can only listen when I'm fully on the mood for it. And it's interesting how sonically immersive and absorptive it can be when you're really on the right moment for it.
Other than that, it's really not a type of music that I would listen to on a daily basis. Whenever I find a new song that I like, I tend to listen it daily, during a week, to see if I truly like it or not. When it comes to ambient music, drone, dungeon synth, experimental and other styles of music, I'm really not able to do that exercise. Or, at least, to complete it during the course of the week. They're all saved to be checked out later, on a more suited opportunity.

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Cirrus uncinus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:56 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:51 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Austin Lunn is not only a great multi-instrumentalist and composer, but he also brings a breath of fresh air to a scene that is otherwise aligned way too much on far-right ideologies, or at the very least, too comfortable and complacent with far-right ideologies. His lyricism is resolutely based of a left-wing perspective on history and politics, but also on our relationship and connection the land and it's conservation.


Absolutely. I discovered Panopticon pretty early on in my metal journey and was blown away by Kentucky in particular, in terms of the theme and lyrics departments. Being varying degrees of anti-establishment is pretty much metal's bread and butter, but before I found Lunn I hadn't seen anyone tackle the exploitative nature of capitalism in such a specific and precise way. It also led me to read up on Appalachian labor movements and find bands with similar philosophies.

On that note, my favorite metal lyrics in general come from Pyrrhon. Often I have to get in certain moods to enjoy their music, but the lyrics? Which drill through the exploitation and bleakness of modern rat-race capitalistic society so caustically and poetically? I'm down for it anytime.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10380
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:36 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Ambient music, or ambience-focused music if you will, will always be divise. Summoning is no exception. Ambient black metal, drone, ambient noise, etc. it's all very different to most other kind of music because it's not melody or rhythm driven. There is no groove to latch on, no strong rhythmic structure. So yeah, a lot of people don't get into that kind of music, and it's fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people dismiss all of it as lazy music or "boring". God! Do I hate it when people's main argument against drone is "It's boring, there is nothing going on." Makes my eyes roll so hard I lose balance.

????

Summoning is not remotely ambient
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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:45 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Ambient music, or ambience-focused music if you will, will always be divise. Summoning is no exception. Ambient black metal, drone, ambient noise, etc. it's all very different to most other kind of music because it's not melody or rhythm driven. There is no groove to latch on, no strong rhythmic structure. So yeah, a lot of people don't get into that kind of music, and it's fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people dismiss all of it as lazy music or "boring". God! Do I hate it when people's main argument against drone is "It's boring, there is nothing going on." Makes my eyes roll so hard I lose balance.

????

Summoning is not remotely ambient


Yeah, that's why I said "ambience-focused music".

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Waltz_of_Ghouls
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec City, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:33 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
On a somewhat related subject, I think Panopticon is one of the best black metal projects right now, if not of all time.

Austin Lunn is not only a great multi-instrumentalist and composer, but he also brings a breath of fresh air to a scene that is otherwise aligned way too much on far-right ideologies, or at the very least, too comfortable and complacent with far-right ideologies. His lyricism is resolutely based of a left-wing perspective on history and politics, but also on our relationship and connection the land and it's conservation.

Panopticon's discography is amazing, but I'm particularly fond of Autumn Eternal, Kentucky, Roads to the North and the 2021 album .​.​.​and Again into the Light.

I'm unsure as if this is an unpopular opinion here, as MA seems to like Lunn's work altogether. But I guess my take that he is one of the best musicians of the entire genre, and that black metal should strive to be more like Panopticon might be. I don't know.


I agree 100% with you. Panopticon/Austin Lunn is one of the best projects/artists the genre has seen.
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:21 am 
 

I used to be really into Panopticon back in the day (2009 and onwards) but he gets overpraised nowadays imho. I still think he's a great musician but I can't say all he does is perfect, he's a bit hit or miss on some albums. For example, Kentucky is a mess that has terrible transitions and seems to jump between styles without much care. The second part of The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness (the one that isn't black metal) is one of the worst folk albums I've ever heard. Unimaginative Appalachian folk mixed with some derivative post rock music and some the worst Bruce Springsteen impersonations I've heard in a while with terrible vocals. The Trump song is simply unlistenable, and not because I don't agree with the message (quite the contrary actually). Which is baffling because the black metal companion album is fine other than a few cheesy monologue samplers here and there about nature. Again, I'm on board with the message. not so much about the implementation into the actual music.

As a whole he tends to have trouble mixing his different influences into something that isn't barely a sum of parts. For example, the folk parts tend to be relegated to intros and outros instead of being fully fleshed into the songs. I also dislike the moments he goes full 80s heavy metal with solos and galloping drums. I prefer when he delivers more emotional postrockish black metal.

I guess my unpopular opinion is that ... on the Subject of Mortality is his best album by far, the one where the punky roots, the raw black metal and the post rock melodies converge the better. A lot of people seemed to pass on it simply because it was released as two halves since he didn't have a lot of money back then. I do agree Autumn Eternal is one of his best albums too, which seems to be on the popular side.

To sum up, ... on the Subject of Mortality, Autumn Eternal and maybe Roads to the North too are fantastic. The rest of them range from good (The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness I, ... and Again into the Light) to bad (Kentucky, The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness I) with a few things in between.

I think I like Seidr better, his other band. It's much more cohesive.


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lennonlikesmetal
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:25 am
Posts: 4282
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:38 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I used to be really into Panopticon back in the day (2009 and onwards) but he gets overpraised nowadays imho. I still think he's a great musician but I can't say all he does is perfect, he's a bit hit or miss on some albums. For example, Kentucky is a mess that has terrible transitions and seems to jump between styles without much care. The second part of The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness (the one that isn't black metal) is one of the worst folk albums I've ever heard. Unimaginative Appalachian folk mixed with some derivative post rock music and some the worst Bruce Springsteen impersonations I've heard in a while with terrible vocals. The Trump song is simply unlistenable, and not because I don't agree with the message (quite the contrary actually). Which is baffling because the black metal companion album is fine other than a few cheesy monologue samplers here and there about nature. Again, I'm on board with the message. not so much about the implementation into the actual music.

As a whole he tends to have trouble mixing his different influences into something that isn't barely a sum of parts. For example, the folk parts tend to be relegated to intros and outros instead of being fully fleshed into the songs. I also dislike the moments he goes full 80s heavy metal with solos and galloping drums. I prefer when he delivers more emotional postrockish black metal.

I guess my unpopular opinion is that ... on the Subject of Mortality is his best album by far, the one where the punky roots, the raw black metal and the post rock melodies converge the better. A lot of people seemed to pass on it simply because it was released as two halves since he didn't have a lot of money back then. I do agree Autumn Eternal is one of his best albums too, which seems to be on the popular side.

To sum up, ... on the Subject of Mortality, Autumn Eternal and maybe Roads to the North too are fantastic. The rest of them range from good (The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness I, ... and Again into the Light) to bad (Kentucky, The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness I) with a few things in between.

I think I like Seidr better, his other band. It's much more cohesive.




Is this Neil Young related?!

https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/S ... ler/281883

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LilTito
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Posts: 335
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:41 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
On a somewhat related subject, I think Panopticon is one of the best black metal projects right now, if not of all time.

Austin Lunn is not only a great multi-instrumentalist and composer, but he also brings a breath of fresh air to a scene that is otherwise aligned way too much on far-right ideologies, or at the very least, too comfortable and complacent with far-right ideologies. His lyricism is resolutely based of a left-wing perspective on history and politics, but also on our relationship and connection the land and it's conservation.

Panopticon's discography is amazing, but I'm particularly fond of Autumn Eternal, Kentucky, Roads to the North and the 2021 album .​.​.​and Again into the Light.

I'm unsure as if this is an unpopular opinion here, as MA seems to like Lunn's work altogether. But I guess my take that he is one of the best musicians of the entire genre, and that black metal should strive to be more like Panopticon might be. I don't know.


Here's something actually unpopular, Panopticon is annoyingly overrated. The only unique thing he did was Kentucky, you couldn't recognize Panopticon's music if you tried

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Durag
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:51 pm
Posts: 193
Location: Republic Of Ireland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:30 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
II still think he's a great musician but I can't say all he does is perfect, he's a bit hit or miss on some albums. For example, Kentucky is a mess that has terrible transitions and seems to jump between styles without much care. The second part of The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness (the one that isn't black metal) is one of the worst folk albums I've ever heard. Unimaginative Appalachian folk mixed with some derivative post rock music and some the worst Bruce Springsteen impersonations I've heard in a while with terrible vocals. The Trump song is simply unlistenable, and not because I don't agree with the message (quite the contrary actually). Which is baffling because the black metal companion album is fine other than a few cheesy monologue samplers here and there about nature. Again, I'm on board with the message. not so much about the implementation into the actual music.

As a whole he tends to have trouble mixing his different influences into something that isn't barely a sum of parts. For example, the folk parts tend to be relegated to intros and outros instead of being fully fleshed into the songs. I also dislike the moments he goes full 80s heavy metal with solos and galloping drums. I prefer when he delivers more emotional postrockish black metal.


Yeah, I agree with all of this. I've tried multiple times to get into Panopticon but just cant. I like the idea but the execution has not been there for me. I find a lot of the transitions lazy and I don't think he's actually that good any of his styles. The black metal is fairly bland. I'm willing to be proven wrong and he gets lots of good reviews so I will be trying again because as I said, I do like the idea and concept.

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Lee Harrison
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 295
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:14 pm 
 

I feel guilty for started that annoyed discussion nazism vs comunism

Sigh.

Anyway my unpopular is that King Diamond is better than Mercyful Fate
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Cirrus uncinus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:56 pm
Posts: 13
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:41 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I guess my unpopular opinion is that ... on the Subject of Mortality is his best album by far, the one where the punky roots, the raw black metal and the post rock melodies converge the better. A lot of people seemed to pass on it simply because it was released as two halves since he didn't have a lot of money back then. I do agree Autumn Eternal is one of his best albums too, which seems to be on the popular side.

My favorite album is Social Disservices. Not sure how unpopular that is.
I love the folk songs on Kentucky to bits, but I agree that they don't transition well into the black metal songs at all.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10380
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:14 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Yeah, that's why I said "ambience-focused music".

Well I don't see how Summoning is that either but ok :p
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 3825
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:39 pm 
 

We've had this discussion about Panopticon before, and Gravetemplar said pretty much the same thing about Kentucky being bad, and quite frankly I can't seem to agree with anything you're saying about the album. It flows very naturally for me, in between the genres, like how Bernheim Forest in Spring segue into Bodies Under the Falls. I love how the themes of coal mining, nature exploitation, anti-capitalism and Kentucky's history are explored, with the inclusion of Which Side Are You On? a real traditionnal union song and the instrumental Kentucky as a closer. It's an album I can't praise enough, and I can't imagine ranking it as a bad Panopticon record.

I'm not saying everything Lunn has done is amazing, but even his early albums, which were not quite as well-rounded or maybe didn't standout as much, are solid solid solid black metal records.

Starting with Social Disservices, he really got to craft a sound of his own, and from Kentucky onward, all Panopticon's music is easily recognizable and standouts as being distinctively his.

However, I will have to revisit On The Subject Of Mortality, as Gravetemplar made a good case for it, and it's one of Lunn's record I'm less familiar with.

Morrigan wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Yeah, that's why I said "ambience-focused music".

Well I don't see how Summoning is that either but ok :p


Summoning has some dungeon synth elements, no? And with their fuzzy tremolo picking that serves as kind of droning background, and the way they kind of paint vast soundscapes. I don't know, I kind of always associated their music with the more atmospheric and ambient side of black metal, although with an epic twist.

It's not ambient black metal for sure, but their music focuses more on creating and atmosphere, like Filosofem era Burzum, Paysage d'hiver, Darkspace or Lustre. I know they have more melody, epic chanted vocals here and there, so they don't exactly fit the bill. But I've always associated their music with more ambient and atmospheric stuff then say rawer, more energetic and aggressive black metal.

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ThePoop
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:38 pm
Posts: 1048
Location: America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:34 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Yeah, that's why I said "ambience-focused music".

Well I don't see how Summoning is that either but ok :p

This is so disingenuous. Obviously Summoning has an ambient focus to their music. Tone, atmosphere and free flowing structure is the literal staple of their sound. Whic is quite clearly ambient focused.


Anyways… Panopticon is eliciting some pretty strong opinions on either side. Is it an unpopular opinion for me to feel that Panopticon is just like.. ok? I think Kentucky is a beautiful piece of Americana black metal but I’d hardly go as far to say Austin is making the best black metal currently. Pretty standard post black metal affair. I enjoy Panopticon for what it is but the praise seems hyperbolic. The critiques seem unfounded. Maybe being in the middle on the project as a whole is truly unpopular?
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4018
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:28 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
We've had this discussion about Panopticon before, and Gravetemplar said pretty much the same thing about Kentucky being bad, and quite frankly I can't seem to agree with anything you're saying about the album. It flows very naturally for me, in between the genres, like how Bernheim Forest in Spring segue into Bodies Under the Falls. I love how the themes of coal mining, nature exploitation, anti-capitalism and Kentucky's history are explored, with the inclusion of Which Side Are You On? a real traditionnal union song and the instrumental Kentucky as a closer. It's an album I can't praise enough, and I can't imagine ranking it as a bad Panopticon record.

I'm not saying everything Lunn has done is amazing, but even his early albums, which were not quite as well-rounded or maybe didn't standout as much, are solid solid solid black metal records.

Starting with Social Disservices, he really got to craft a sound of his own, and from Kentucky onward, all Panopticon's music is easily recognizable and standouts as being distinctively his.

However, I will have to revisit On The Subject Of Mortality, as Gravetemplar made a good case for it, and it's one of Lunn's record I'm less familiar with.

Morrigan wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Yeah, that's why I said "ambience-focused music".

Well I don't see how Summoning is that either but ok :p


Summoning has some dungeon synth elements, no? And with their fuzzy tremolo picking that serves as kind of droning background, and the way they kind of paint vast soundscapes. I don't know, I kind of always associated their music with the more atmospheric and ambient side of black metal, although with an epic twist.

It's not ambient black metal for sure, but their music focuses more on creating and atmosphere, like Filosofem era Burzum, Paysage d'hiver, Darkspace or Lustre. I know they have more melody, epic chanted vocals here and there, so they don't exactly fit the bill. But I've always associated their music with more ambient and atmospheric stuff then say rawer, more energetic and aggressive black metal.

Be sure to check this version.

https://thetruepanopticon.bandcamp.com/ ... st-version

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kovner1972
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:33 pm
Posts: 110
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:13 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
On a somewhat related subject, I think Panopticon is one of the best black metal projects right now, if not of all time.



Please exaggerate some more.

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doomicus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 5:58 am
Posts: 1125
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:20 pm 
 

Paul Di'Anno maiden > Bruce era
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10380
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:40 am 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Summoning has some dungeon synth elements, no? And with their fuzzy tremolo picking that serves as kind of droning background, and the way they kind of paint vast soundscapes. I don't know, I kind of always associated their music with the more atmospheric and ambient side of black metal, although with an epic twist.

It's not ambient black metal for sure, but their music focuses more on creating and atmosphere, like Filosofem era Burzum, Paysage d'hiver, Darkspace or Lustre. I know they have more melody, epic chanted vocals here and there, so they don't exactly fit the bill. But I've always associated their music with more ambient and atmospheric stuff then say rawer, more energetic and aggressive black metal.

It's always just been epic/symphonic black to me, not at all ambient.

ThePoop wrote:
This is so disingenuous. Obviously Summoning has an ambient focus to their music. Tone, atmosphere and free flowing structure is the literal staple of their sound. Whic is quite clearly ambient focused.

A minor disagreement over music classification is not being "disingenuous", just as you're not being disingenuous by framing it as such... you're just being an asshole.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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oldmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Posts: 719
Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:48 am 
 

doomicus wrote:
Paul Di'Anno maiden > Bruce era

Ok, I'll bite. Can you offer an explanation as to why you think so?

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HeavenDuff
Veteran

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 3825
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:55 am 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
On a somewhat related subject, I think Panopticon is one of the best black metal projects right now, if not of all time.



Please exaggerate some more.


Why are you being an ass?

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