I'll have to grab a copy of this when I run across one at a record store. I expected more funk, but its very hard rock so far.

There's no funk on 'Burn', but that did creep into its follow-up, 'Stormbringer'. It still kicks ass, just not as much as Burn.
That it was supposedly prompted Blackmore to depart and form Rainbow.

The subsequent album, "Come Taste the Band', features Tommy Bolin on guitar and has an even higher degree of funkiness (but its presence is overblown and has been exaggerated over the years). The album also rules.

Since we were talking about Enslaved, I feel that Vikingligr veldi is just an okay album, nothing great. It seems like every cool part of the album was done better elsewhere by another band, like Mayhem, Gorgoroth, Helheim, Ulver, Kampfar or even Finntroll (that bouncy keyboard melody on Lifandi lif undir hamri). I know Enslaved should get their due credit from a historical perspective, as Vikingligr veldi predated the debut albums of every other band I mentioned, but it's hard for me to rate it on quite the same level based on its musical merits alone.

Well, I for one agree with you, and that's coming from someone who only likes earlier Enslaved. I listened up through 'Below the Lights', which is still pretty great, but I don't like Monumension (the album before BTL), and I'd probably put Mardraum and Frost at the very top of my Enslaved list... but they're all good, of those first 7 or 8 (again, except for Monumension, it feels like a bad Pink Floyd knock-off or something).

But, to your point, of those earlier records, I feel Vikingligr veldi is the least interesting by far. It's decent atmospheric black metal if you're in the mood but, as you said, it's been done better elsewhere...

Gorgoroth is a band I consider somewhat underrated... Their entire discography is worthwhile, those first 6 or 7 are fantastic, and I liked their somewhat controversial experimentation phase (Destroyer, or About How to Philosophize with the Hammer & Incipit Satan) because they were still vital and ferocious, they didn't lose that, and at least they weren't playing it totally safe and predictable like most of their peers were at the time.

Black Sabbath - Never Say Die! is a masterpiece.

Nope, not even remotely close. One OK song does not a masterpiece make (no prizes for guessing which one).

Doh…

Drinking and posting Ace?

With you on this. Not a metal masterpiece, but as far as rock goes? Hell yeah. It sounds amazing when cranked.

Thirded. Shock Wave and Air Dance are among Sabbath's best songs. And every track is worthwhile, which is something I can't even say for Paranoid, Master of Reality, or Vol 4.

I was about to give it a chance based on these posts (never listened to it), but then you say Paranoid and Master of Reality have non-worthwhile songs...?

Rat Salad, Orchid, and FX.

I said, "tracks," not necessarily songs.

But seriously, if you felt the urge to give NSD a shot, do it! Just don't expect it to be heavy ass doom and gloom like the classic 6.

And frankly I probably shouldn't lump Rat Salad in with not worthwhile.... Just really didn't need a drum solo.

Level, non-wacky voice here to ensure any confused onlookers that no, Never Say Die actually isn't very good. It's not the WORST or anything but it's very un-Sabbath and feels like a completely rudderless band trying everything and hoping something sticks. I remember liking the title track and... I think Air Dance? Either way, it's 1000% skippable and your Metal Education will not be incomplete if you don't subject yourself to Johnny Blade or Junior's Eyes.

This. This right here. People hate it for what it ISN'T rather than what it is. I even told creeping death don't be expecting heavy as doom and gloom like the 6 classics. Trying to fully prepare him that it's not gonna be the Sabbath he knows. But that doesn't mean it's not good music. Because it is.

People here are warming up to the idea people hate Load just because it was released by Metallica, and it would've always been relatively looked upon favorable if it was released by a rock band rather than a metal one. But people still go the "IT'S NOT SABBATH" route with Never Say Die. Judge it for what it is, not for what it's not.

I should've been clearer but my point is that even if you pretend it wasn't Sabbath that released it, it's still an unfocused mess with mostly bad songs lol

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Never Say Die and Forbidden are just sad really. A tired band's works. Not as familiar with them as other Sabbath works, but man, I just don't see how either would really be a favorite if you're a big fan...

I guess a semi-unpopular opinion for me is that I'm not bothered by those songs... "FX" is the most egregious, but eh if I'm in the mood for those early albums, that's just part of the package, the weird experiments. I don't like skipping stuff.

FX is like a minute long or something, what's the issue with it? Even if one doesn't like it it's soon over and you're on to Supernaut.

I quite enjoy Never Say Die but it’s hard to say it’s better than most of the hard rock being released during the late 70s.
The output from UFO, Thin Lizzy, Rainbow, Scorpions, AC/DC, etc, was all quite a bit more potent, IMO.

That said, the hatred foisted upon Never Say Die has always seemed really silly and misplaced.

That's a long minute if not tripping balls. FX really does hinder the flow of an already flawed album. Orchid and Rat Salad do not, they fit right in.

True, I forget it's that short... but yeah that's what I mean. Ultimately they don't bother me much. Just parts of the albums.

I dunno, YMMV I guess. It never seems to disrupt the album too much from my perspective.

Vol. 4 isn't what I'd call 'flawed' either. It's branching out, sure there's less focus at times, but a great album still.

Now if you want controversy - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is much less consistent than some folk say and is kind of lacking in parts. First two songs are fantastic (obviously), it ends well with Spiral Architect, and I even like Who Are You. But Looking For Today is a middling pop song, Fluff is not as good as their other acoustic interludes, and Sabbra Cadabra and Killing Yourself To Live start off strongly then about halfway through the awesome riffs dry up and they go into bar room rock territory and kind of wind up a bit directionless. Also the vibe of the album is seriously odd, one really has to be in the mood for it.

Speaking of Forbidden, that's the other way overhated Sabbath album. Not great by any means but still pretty good with like one bad song where Tony Martin sounds like shit in the verses. I think I would have to agree that it's among the band's low points, but I still don't get why Tony Martin fans have by and large disowned it. It's not bad. The fact I think Forbidden is one of their low points speaks a lot less to it's quality (or lack thereof) and a hell of a lot more that I by FAR prefer the Ozzy and Dio eras of the band to any of the Martin albums.

I agree with a lot of what you said about SBS. But I think Fluff is the first GOOD instrumental interlude from Iommi, I really like and have no qualms with Sabbra Caddarba and Killing Yourself to Live, and I see nothing special about Spiral Architect.

If you want to sample Mk III Deep Purple at its finest, I'd suggest getting the live album Mk III: The Final Concerts which is that particular line up on awesome form and is easily the equal of Made in Japan.

I think some of our comments are being taken out of context. Just because an album is flawed, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't great. For me the biggest flaw with Vol 4 is the 1-2-3 punch of Tomorrow's Dream, Changes, and FX. Long before I got Vol 4 I only knew the songs featured on the We Sold Our Souls For Rock and Roll comp, and back then I really liked Tomorrow's Dream a lot, but for reasons I don't even understand myself, I just don't like it anymore.

As for the songs I already mentioned as not worthwhile..... I don't even skip any of them myself. FX included. The first three Sabbath albums are all triple tied as my favorite albums of all time, by anyone, anywhere, any time, any genre. But the one thing I can say about the debut that I can't about the next two is it doesn't even have one second of filler (I realize a lot of metal fans might not like the bluesy jamming in Warning, but I adore it). If I were to review those three albums on MA, I would absolutely give the debut a 100%, and as for Paranoid and MOR, I'd have to debate with myself to give them a 99%, a 1 point deduction for the drum solo and Orchid, or just give them the full 100% just because they are that phenomenal and those "not perfect" moments aren't even that bad.

I will however fucking die on the hill that FX is worthless and should never have made the final cut. Now if they had actually done something half way musical with it, which they didn't at all, I wouldn't mind it nearly as much.

Reinkaos of dissection was a awesome album!!
the melodic sense and that change in sound seem superb to me... why talk about the work in lyrical composition... incredible.

Count as me as guilty; I consider both albums to be flawless. The experimentation and variety on display on both are one of the critical elements that have always distanced Sabbath from their legion of clones, and, frankly, any other metal band. (That, and the highly unique sound the original four created, which has never been captured or replicated by anyone else.)

THIS.
Live 70s Purple represents the highwater mark of live music, IMO. I'd sell my soul for a ride on a time machine to attend live gigs in the early-mid 70s by Purple, Sabbath, Zeppelin (especially Zep), the Allmans, etc.

I have a few months of free Sirius and they played Burn from Made in Europe this morning and it was rocking.

I like Never Say Die but it's an album that has good songwriting let down by lacking musicianship. Almost every cover of a NSD song I've ever heard was an improvement over the original (Shoutout to Mos Generator's "Air Dance" cover and Cathedral's "Shock Wave" cover) and the style feels so middle of the road to the point that I sometimes wish they'd doubled down on the pseudo-jazzy weirdness and let Bill sing the whole thing instead of Ozzy. Forbidden has a similar issue, the writing is a bit more pedestrian but I think it'd be worlds better with better production and less apathetic performances.

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath rules across the board. Killing Yourself to Live and Looking for Today took some getting used to but I just love how you can feel that "we recorded this in a castle" vibe throughout.

I get what you're saying, but there is a limit to that line of reasoning. Sure we should try to look at these things at face value, but context is also important, and you can't really blame people for comparing various albums by the same band together. That's why we have entire threads dedicated to ranking band's discographies. It's hard not to compare when there is stuff to compare it to.

Albums aren't released in a vacuum.

And yeah, like BH said, even if you try to listen to Never Say Die without expecting it to be like classic Sabbath, it's still not a great album.

I have been listening to Never Say Die recently I don't think the musicianship is bad. Ward has a lot of nice drum parts and the rest of the band is fine. Ozzy may be sounding a bit tired. A solid album, but not spectacular like most of the stuff before it.

I can't fathom the idea of someone listening to any of the first six Black Sabbath albums as songs and not as wholes. People obviously do, but that is a foreign concept to me. And they're perfect, from first to last note. Being complete pieces of work is one of their strongest virtues. Changes, FX, Am I Going Insane (Radio)...all the tracks some complain about...horse pucky. You suck at listening to music. So to tie this into Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, that's yet another significant reason those albums fall apart. I don't care for them for various other reasons, but this is a big one for me. They're just a bunch of tracks.

Never Say Die has some awful moments on it and, as is the case with most of the Ozzy era, it is because of the vocals. Junior's Eyes, Close To You & the absolute drek that is A Hard Road. However, Johnny Blade, Shockwave & Air Dance are classics. Breakout/Swinging The Chain is also ridiculously enjoyable but that might be due to my affinity for Jazz music. Regardless however, I think most would agree that Never Say Die is light years better than the dumpster fire that is Technical Ecstasy.

I mean I wouldn't say either is totally awful, but for a band of Sabbath's stature and quality they're just not anywhere near stuff I need to play often at all. Or ever really. To me both these albums just sounded so sluggish and uninspired. Like the band had to force them out.

Yeah, SBS and Sabotage to me are the pinnacle of the band. I sort of go through moods for all the first six or the Dio or Martin albums, but those two are so unique, such a weird, interesting vibe and atmosphere. Nothing else I've ever heard like either one.

"Technical Ecstasy" is significantly stronger than "Never Say Die", IMO. Some classic tracks there, particularly "You Wont Change Me" and "She's Gone" which portays a bleak, depressive, doomy atmosphere without the classic vehicle of distorted guitar.
The Ozzy era was so diverse -- that's one of the main reasons why Sabbath is so revered. They're not only invented a genre, but they continually pushed the envelope within it.

There are no bad Sabbath albums.

How is You Won't Change Me a classic? It is mind-numbingly boring, goes nowhere and is tied with She's Gone as the worst vocal performances on the record. I disagree with She's Gone being depressive and bleak. There is no doomy atmosphere on that sappy ballad, the music is actually written in a major key and if the lyrics were different, would sound whimsical and enchanting. No matter the music of either, Ozzy sounds so whiny and awful that it is embarrassingly cringe.I am well aware of Sabbath's diversity, it is why I revere them so much. They did not invent a genre though.
Yes there are. Technical Ecstasy & 13 are downright terrible. Forbidden is bad and Born Again is meh and, oh yeah, I am the one who finds Master Of Reality boring, so what do I know?