...WTF does Arch Enemy having an attractive person as a band member have to do with what the OP is talking about

You're conflating topics, but again, I suppose I should not be surprised. You're out of your element, as always

No comments on the thread, except to say I found it weirdly funny that gabber’s signature appeared right above this sentence from the post immediately below:



What are those lyrics from, BTW?

The original poster was talking about sex appeal "ruining" an album if the band didn't really do that kind of image before, or just if sex appeal in general makes people think of an album as "juvenile". I went on to state how I thought that bands choosing to incorporate sexy imagery is not a problem unless it's creepy and how when I see people complain about sex in music they're usually prudes. When someone told me this was a "brain dead take" I rationalized myself and listed Arch Enemy as an easy example, because they have an attractive frontperson whose addition to the band started playing up the sex appeal element. And I've seen many people complain about Alissa's presence in Arch Enemy, mostly pertaining to her sex appeal. It follows. It is not entirely disconnected from what the original poster was talking about.

And I don't appreciate being told I'm "out of my element" or that I have a "brain dead take" on something. If I'm wrong, why am I wrong? I'm not a bad person who regularly churns out misogynistic takes here. I'm nearly entirely in line with what most everybody here thinks in regards to social justice and all things pertaining to it - in fact, I've changed some of my stances to conform to the forum as a result of its influence on me. I know objectification or sexual imagery that's harmful when I see it and I'll label it as such when I see it. Now if I'm wrong about Arch Enemy and it wasn't Alissa's idea to bring obvious sex appeal to the band and/or she does it against her will, then I will think differently.

Being objectified as a marketing tool, even if it is consensual, is still wrong because it perpetuates the image of women as sexual objects above all other skills. How many comments have I seen about Alissa in the tone "Wow she sings so well and at the same time she's sexy she's the perfect woman" Are we really going to consider that as a positive thing if she is ok with it? I think we've matured enough to realise that we were lied to when we were told that a woman posing nude in a magazine was empowering for her and her sexuality, when in reality it was just an excuse for men to jerk off.

I mean... are we forgetting that Arch Enemy had an attractive female frontwoman for years before Alissa joined? I think it's really unfair to infer that it was Alissa's idea to bring sex appeal to Arch Enemy because, whether intentional or not, the band already had it.

W.A.S.P. - W.A.S.P.

The cover art is not overtly sexual but the lyrics are very much so. Even though they are typically lumped in with the glam scene, this album is pretty much heavy metal.

You make a good point. Thanks.

I'm now curious about what kind of sexual imagery in music or musical performers is fine. How do you think you incorporate it in a way that's not problematic?

You got called out for a bad take, stop crying.
You wrote, and I quote, "when I see people complain about sex in music, it's usually them just being prudes. Disliking a band purely or mostly because they incorporate sexy imagery is kinda stupid, especially since exaggerated sex appeal has been a part of rock music since it was invented."

Why are you still asking for clarification oh Lord of Diamonds?



This rips, thanks!

There's more to sex than carnal desire. Two of my favourite songs (that weren't written written in English so there's little point in sharing them) are both sexual in nature but they both cover a wide spectrum of emotions, from anger to insecurity to frustration to fear to joy to comfort and, yes, the act itself, which is portrayed in an intimate manner and is more about the way the pair have bonded and in a way merged into one - while also retaining that animalistic edge of emotional outpour.

METALCORE WARNING Another good example is The End to a Brief Moment of Lasting Intimacy by SeeYouSpaceCowboy which is about hookups and trying to find comfort and safety in another person through sex. It also has a very sexual and very gay music video that I don't think I've watched because I don't really like music videos, but it's probably quite good if it deals with the subject manner as seriously as the lyrics do.

By far the most offensive thing in the video you mention is the bass player's technique.

When I see the kind of juvenile, teenage pandering mentioned by the OP, it's pretty much an instant turn-off and makes me not want to listen to the band, because I'm going to assume that it's garbage just by default. Maybe that's unfair, and sometimes those decisions are made by the label rather than the band, but I'll usually need something to make me push past that to check things out, like positive word of mouth about the music itself.

There's definitely a place for a more mature exploration of sex, desire, and romance in metal, though. I'd guess it's so rare to see due to toxic masculinity framing it as weak for guys to explore those kinds of feelings, and also because the assumed audience is pretty much entirely straight men, rather than people into guys. I'd love to see more groups with both music and lyrics that tie into those themes, especially in a way that appeals more to women and LGBTQ people... but I recognize I might be an outlier in terms of typical metal fan demographics.

Still, beyond all that, I just don't think metal lends itself to sex appeal on a musical level, given that aggression, speed, and anger are often the primary textures. But every once in a while you come across a band like Type O Negative or Sonja, and they definitely prove it can be done.

I have zero problems with sex appeal on album art, etc. It doesn't really do anything to change my opinions of the music. Using looks to help sell the band doesn't bother me either, but its not going to save a shit band for me. I can see plenty of beautiful women if I desire and not sit though mediocre music at the same time.

As far as that cover goes...there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I don't find it exploitive, crass or offensive. The art is reasonably well drawn and if one of the ladies garments is sheer enough to show some boob/nipple, it's nothing to get all wrung out about. Given the Band Name and the White/Black color palatte, there's some implied evil/good, heaven/hell alluding going on but thats about it....unless *gasp*, your offended by the implication that they look like they just might be about to lock lips? In a *eeek* passionate manner perhaps?! ZOMG call the priests, bring out the torture implements and hide the childen! How dare they!

"Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia" was never more an appropriate title for an album than ever. (Even if I don't care for the band/music that much, this title is pure truth.)

As if a band with a hot male vocalist isn't something the girls can't appreciate.
There are way too many ugly guys in metal, face it hahaa.

I love the eroticism in early Cradle of Filth artwork, that Bram Stoker vibe

It's fucking tacky, backward and has been done a thousand times before. But enjoy your stupid things, I guess.

If you want to depict sex in metal then why not have art depicting demons and such in a sexual manner - that's more in line with the themes of extreme metal anyway. Having two "hot girls" kissing up on your album cover or posing scantily is merely taking from the already established form of rock/pop to entice horny idiots into buying your stuff. It's rather pathetic.

Arch Enemy's actually a good example of sex appeal as marketing strategy.

You can approach it from different angles. As far as I'm concerned, it's just something clearly tacked onto the overall music+lyrics, completely disconnected from all aspects of the latter. I don't have a problem with it because I'm a prude, but rather because of the sheer meaninglessness of it all (there's no meaning in coming up with another layer of attention-grabbing elements when your music is fucking shit; the whole point of it is directed to and dependent on very basic customer preference stuff that doesn't have anything to do with your art). It's completely superfluous, irrelevant, surface-level stuff really.

What would the wider metal world gain if more bands followed this path?

It's a whole other deal what social effects this has on metal's predominantly male audience (and prospective women artists?).

When it comes to band members themselves, I more or less agree, but for me the difference between crass exploitation and being sexy, really comes down to the question of who is it for, and where is it coming from.

Confidence and talent is sexy. If you're a strong, powerful, talented person and own it on stage, then that's definitely going to come across. There's several metal frontwomen who exude that attitude, like Alissa as mentioned, or Floor from Nightwish. It's pretty obvious they are at the absolute peak of their abilities and are in great physical shape, and they know it. Any sex appeal they have comes far more from their performance and personality, and doesn't feel like it's being done specifically to appeal to the male gaze. That certainly benefits the band as a whole and has benefit for their image and marketing, but you could say the same about any charismatic, talented, and attractive frontman as well.

That said, I really wish we saw more women and non-binary folks in metal roles outside of vocals. I love seeing groups like Crypta, because not only are they incredibly good songwriters and musicians, they're clearly doing it out of their love of the music, which is better than about 99% of modern death metal being made by all-guy bands. It's so rare to see that, and I think it does a ton to break down "token girl in the band" stereotypes, which benefits both men as well as anyone else who is interested in metal but might feel put off by the genre's hyper-masculine image and fanbase.


I disagree here. I get where you're coming from, but the fact is that people find other people attractive. Sex sells, and has sold since the dawn of time. You think Chris Pratt gets so many gigs because he's a fantastic actor? I'm sure he's got talents, but let's be real, a huge part of it is because he's a hunk. And that's okay.

There is a big difference between a frontman or woman who kicks ass and just happens to be attractive, and a band hiring a model for their album cover or music video who's there solely to look hot. It also depends entirely on how the band is marketed and sold. Arch Enemy has photos and music videos featuring Alissa because she is a core member of the group, and while there's definitely some sex appeal going on, if she absolutely sucked then I'm sure she wouldn't even be there in the first place, nor would the band be anywhere near as successful.

The fact is that performance and image is part of the gig when you are a big mainstream artist, no matter who that person is, and constructing an image, maintaining your body, dressing fashionably, doing makeup and hair... all of that takes real work, and people, especially women, are rarely credited for it.

Again, I say this as someone who wants there to be way more diversity and representation in metal, and wants to see its toxic shitty elements thrown into the trash where they belong. It's just really hard for me to fault someone who is attractive... for being attractive.

CoffeeCat what's your take on Brojob?

They're one of the most extreme, sexual, gay, and sometimes emotional bands I can think of.

Riiiiiiight....with songs titled "The Incel Anthem" and "Extra Thicc". It's cool if people enjoy this sort of jokey meme-type bands but fuck it's so cringey (literal body cringing after looking them up) - where's the "emotional" anything in that??

Their entire second album. The only track without emotional lyrics is the last one, which is instrumental and its title is the (now former) phone number for the suicide prevention hotline.

Those bands are way less inclined to actually do any of that shit whereas there's a reason every hair band had lyrics like 'hey baby, you're 14, you know what I mean'

I really hate to admit it, but you've got a point.

*Obligatory Spinal Tap "What's Wrong With Being Sexy?" Quote*

As fucked up as like, Nuclear Death lyrics or something can be, at the end of the day it's a fuckin horror story.

If you're looking for some real, genuine sex appeal in a band, album, songs and album cover, then look no further than the sexiest of them all, Mentors "You Axed For It!".
https://youtu.be/uaJJX8UrIHE

Oh....okay.

Still can't get over what a terrible band name Brojob is but whatever

I just wonder why many male musicians nowadays look more bland. A lot of it is just cargo pants and black band shirts. At least power metal has some fashion, even if it can get goofy.

I don't know, man. They aren't that bad to me.

But yeah, using sex to sell music is generally pretty low. One of the reasons metal stands alone to me is because (for the most part) it has never felt the need to do that. If you're into this stuff, it's because you're into the music first and foremost (because lord knows you're not gonna be attracting anyone by playing brutal death metal or black metal!). Using sex to sell stuff is like slapping expensive, nice looking paint on a shit car so that people will buy it.

At least in North America, men's fashion has become increasingly boring since the 80s in general, and in the last decade has really trended towards dark and muted colours and projection of "manliness." Bright colours, cool hair, makeup, etc. are all super rare outside of very specific spaces and subcultures. It fees like there's like 3 or 4 officially-sanctioned outfits and colour schemes guys can wear these days without raising eyebrows (can you guess which?!).

Not to turn things overly political, but I'm sure you could link some of that to the rise of toxic masculinity in certain countries, as well as the increasing sway of the alt-right.

Tacky? The art isn't that bad. Cliche at worst. But I took one look at it and from the art alone I could immediately identify the band would be playing either Power Metal or some type of Heavy Metal, since I'd never even heard of them before. A quick check of the archives and they are from France, so no surprise I hadn't heard of them yet. A a short visit to youtube to confirm, yup this is power metal and my guess at what they would sound like was pretty much 95% spot on without ever hearing them before.

And given the songs/lyrics, the design/art pretty much evokes exactly what I expected. Are they dropping 'sexy' lyrics on every song? No. Are they misrepresenting their 'content'? Again I would say no. Is the art kinda 'sexy'? It's not Luis Ruyo, but it's resonably evocative of something that's a little racy, but not much else. Are their album full of 'sexy covers' to deceive buyers? No given that the previous albums had covers more in line with Death Metal or Thrash, other than their debut...I'd say this cover is more representative of their sound than the previous 'horror/demon/evil' covers were.

In short, there's nothing wrong here....unless of course you've conditioned yourself to immediately equate anything that shows a woman as 'sexy' as something shameful and only exists to incite uncontrollable lust in any 'horny idiot'.

In fact I find it more offensive that you feel they need to have demons engaging in sex to "Be in line with extreme metal". But thats exactly it, their not 'extreme metal' are they? They are a power metal band, not death metal, not grindcore, not black metal, etc, etc.. So having a sexy but not even 'softcore' cover is 100% in line with what they are doing.

This got me looking through my own personal collection to see how often I've been - subconsciously or otherwise - swayed by sexy album covers. Looking at my collection in alphabetical/chronological order caused this to happen, which I've been giggling at for the past ten or so minutes.

But yeah, for me, I mostly only have good albums that just so happen to have lewd album art. Better Than Raw, Vanishing Vision, Master of Disguise... And the latter two in particular I wish had variant covers. I wanna recommend this shit to my friends and family, y'know? OP bringing up Heavenly is interesting because I own both Carpe Diem and Virus, and Virus is a billion times better. But alas, because Virus only has a "We have Eddie the Head at home" album cover, a lot of folks will probably skip right over it, go straight to Carpe Diem, and conclude Heavenly sucks. A cryin'-ass shame, but hey, you live by the pants-sword, you die by the pants-sword.

Wow.i had completely forgotten about Heavenly.I have not thought about them in years.I regret getting rid of Dust to Dust.

Well the issue is that you've made this into a binary where it's either "you have absolutely zero issues with that cover" or "you're a prude conservative" with nothing else in between. Bad faith discussion to start with here.

It's not bad because it has boobs or women kissing, it just looks like something a 14 year old would think is cool and no one any older than that.

I don't think the alt-right is responsible for the t-shirt and cargo shorts look every death metal band seems to have.

There's some truth however in that metal, pretty much since it's inception, has been coded as 'male' (same way it's coded as 'white', tho obviously this is not true across the board). Metal, like all musical genres, is a product of the society it emerged from.

At least where I live, that's a factor of the climate rather than anything else. Gets a bit warm in Australia this time of year, especially in a room full of people and under hot stage lights. Everyone gave Uada shit for complaining about the heat in Mexico that time, but I've seen people pass out on stage from heat stress trying to play in elaborate stage get-ups here, and my experiences playing in summer under the lights even in jeans/boots/cut-off t-shirt have been physically uncomfortable to say the very least. That "look" is what everyone wears the 6 months of the year when it's not cold enough to wear jeans and a hoodie for purely utilitarian reasons, and the rest of society is doing something similar in their own style - boardshorts and singlet, chino shorts and polo or whatever, because you have to adapt to the ambient temperature.

Anyway, regarding the question at hand, I think that kind of blatant fan-service/pandering is largely pretty tacky and I'm nobody's idea of prudish. I think much of it followed on the success of early COF and neglected the fact that Nigel Wingrove was a fairly accomplished photographer & visual designer aside from "hey, look, boobs! Buy our shit!". I don't quite want to say "Eurotrash" given that his film distribution work was steeped in 70's European sleaze like Jean Rollin and Jess Franco, but you cant help but look at the artwork Napalm Records put out and think that.

There's an anecdote Lori Bravo tells in an interview where she had I guess put some plastic vampire teeth in her vagina (or crotch at least, kind of unclear) and took pictures as promo material or something for Carrion but those photos got lost somehow. That I can kind of approve of to be honest, if you're gonna do that kind of stuff, it should have an edge to it or something and not just be like 100% idiotic male teen sexuality.

Ow. That's the pain I get from the whiplash of trying to point out how low the bar has been set only to be told I'm the one who set the bar that low....my point was that *any* level of female attractiveness in media is basically tarred and feathered with the same brush these days and it's stupid.

And countering with only 14 year old's would like it is just a plain straw man argument...unless you want to argue that Bomber Plane Nose Art in WWII was painted by 14 year olds? Or all the pinups and cheesecake calendars were only ever meant to appeal to that same level of maturity as well. And that's roughly where the quality of the art sits to me. It's clean, well proportioned and the actual 'sexy' part is PG-13 at worst.

You would have more of an argument if you were talking about using a Bikini Model trying to sell Doritos, but this is just a Album cover, something that is representative of what the music is trying to evoke. And I have to say it fits the music and lyrics reasonably well, even if not for every single song.

Complaining that the band used this type of artwork is just another example of elitism. "True XYZ bands don't use babes to sell records!" or "XYZ stopped singing about gore, satanism and misanthropy...they must be sell outs!"

So play sexy song, have sexy cover. There's nothing really out of order here. No, the ones that are unquestionably using sexiness to sell something that isn't, that is where I draw the line. So Metal = No Problem. But something like a Classical Album by Orchestra playing a selection of Bach/Handel/Murgovsky/etc... Now THAT is trying to cheaply use sex to sell something. And sadly that is a real example. I don't recall the series, but it was in the very late 90's early 00's when I last heard of that type of thing.

How is that different? Händel's music can be sexy (not to mention Murgovsky, that dirty old bastard). Bach had 20 children, so he must have had some interest in sex. Can't a classical snob enjoy a pair of nice titties for what they are? I wonder who's the prude here?

I think my question really is, why do so many of these covers look like ads for these shitty mobile games?

I'm waiting for the day furries discover power metal en masse and the hilarious album covers that will produce.