I mean I was the first to admit I might be reading too much into it, so there's no disagreement there:

Sorry, missed that bit! All fine and dandy then.

I've never seen this one before, looks like he's wearing mostly trash and garbage... perhaps some reference to the environmental destruction of the planet? But then I wouldn't want to read too much into it. Seems to me, the only real "message" one might be able to derive from Attila's art would be something very broad and philosophical, like, "chaos reigns", or "humanity is absurd" or something along those lines. Because trying to find much else from such a diverse variety of expressions seems to me an exercise in futility. But again, that may be the point. I'm sure he's having fun, as most artists do, when people debate the work."It means this..." "No, it means this..."

If they ever saw this thread they'd just smile and think "that's just what we want". And that probably goes for both sides (the ones trying to paint them as NS and the ones defending the band). Their shtick is to create headlines and go to spaces that highlights dark aspects of humanity. That can span over a wide variety of topics. As we've been though they've touched on ns aesthetics, nietzschean elitism, murder, suicide, satanism, communism, gore, natural disasters etc. Do they support any of those things? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm not familiar enough with mayhem post-DMDS to make a real judgement on what they're trying to express through their music, but it's absolutely true that too many metal fans refuse to engage with the obvious subtext of their favorite bands' lyric, to the point where it's almost considered a good thing for a band to believe in nothing, and expressing a genuine point of view is unthinkable. See the recent discussion on Impaled Nazarene for instance.

Has Mayhem ever been overtly anti-autistic? I would bet that the Mayhem/black metal audience (self included) is significantly more autistic than the "normie" general population.

yeah... it is getting painful indeed
I stopped laughing a while ago. I'm beginning to understand why so many metal fans have stopped caring about /going to MA apart from the encyclopedia part for raw data

Which is probably the intention of a band like Mayhem. What runs through their approach is either the indulgence of the other (that which is not socially acceptable) or plain nihilism. Mayhem never really stood for anything and it was never their intention either I don't think. I'm willingly ignoring early interviews with Euronomyous where he claimed to promote evil or whatever. I view that as (1) teenage/early adult bs or (2) what I just mentioned (just being socially unacceptable).

I honestly don't see Mayhem as fascists or nazis at all either, I feel like bands that actually support that will usually make it their whole identity, or constantly use jargon that while not outright stating it, still sets all red flags if you're just slightly familiar with what these sorts of people are like. They usually will have almost of their song titles and lyrics be filled to the brim with such jargon (when the band isn't straight up fash), and if not, you can check the members, and if they have side projects that do check this criteria, then yeah... you're dealing with these sketchy types. And I don't think any of these fascists are willing to be actually subtle to such an extent.

Update: another cancellation, this time in Brasília, announced just after the openers finished their set and before Mayhem took the stage. This time it was embargoed by request of the Ministério Público (roughly equivalent to the D.A. Office in the US I think). The reasons stated by them for the cancelation were (my translation): "There is evidence that members and former members of the band are involved with neonazi apology, suicide, cannibalism and murder, beyond various types of violence and discrimination, including church burnings, references to extreme violence, incitement to mutilation, racist and antisemitic statements".
Many on the left are celebrating this; I'm not. Despite what one might think of Mayhem (and as I've said, I share some of the reservations people have about them), given some of the stated reasons, I believe this is a dangerous precedent for persecuting all kinds of controversial art, especially when you consider the religious right has a lot of influence here in Brazil, and that does include public entities like the Ministério Público. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Remember people, if we repeat something enough times it doesn't exist. "There is no cancel culture. There is no cancel culture. There is..."

On a more serious note though, this is great for the band in the long run just like any controversy has been for them. They feed on this stuff. The controversy is what made the band. Now when they are older and can't be bothered as much themselves others will do it for them. This fits perfectly with the narrative. Sort of like when Nergal was prosecuted (?) for ripping apart a bible. It will gain them more fans.

Do they have to be? And especially does Grand Declaration of War have to be, when it constantly rages against any sort of weakness, vulnerability, or frailty? To hate neurodivergent people is a logical and inevitable extension of the value system it expresses, one where compassion is "self-deception as law" and the free human being is a ruthless predator. Everyone is obsessed with these ideological details and overt statements which are far less important than the principles and values underlying those statements. And those values haven't really changed--witness Hellhammer's statement where he outwardly decries homophobia, racism, and other forms of bigotry, but decries them as personal weakness, of a failure of power and nerve. It is a fascist way of looking at the world, and something that goes much deeper than any direct statement of opinion, coloring every aspect of somebody's thought. But here's the thing, that it communicates such utter and genuine hostility, that it really is that alienating and horrifying, is the whole point of the music for me, and why I haven't deleted it. It says what it means and it means what it says, and it makes no excuses for itself.

And frankly, I think such a confrontation attracts other people like me to it, who also come to it deliberately to be simultaneously revolted and fascinated. But there are other fans who come to it because they agree with it, and those happen to be the same sort of people who commit hate crimes, join fascist militias, and elect reactionaries who take away people's rights. And Mayhem don't care if one set of their fans hates the other and intends to make them suffer. But if they did care about people, they wouldn't be Mayhem. I think there's a big generational divide here--the people (like me) who grew up in the '80s, '90s, and early '00s can live in this contradiction--we were raised in one of the most nihilistic cultural moments in human history (even normies had South Park, George Carlin, Quentin Tarantino, cynical postmodern intellectuals like Baudrillard and Foucault, etc.). I sense that the zoomers and the still younger kids generally can't--they have much stronger moral precepts and taboos, on not only on the left--the young right nowadays seem much more into "Weird Christianity", trad/cottagecore aesthetics, gonzo conspiracy theories like QAnon and Tartaria, esoteric reactionary thought like that of Julius Evola or that Bronze Age Pervert guy, etc. than the individualist libertarianism of late 20th century nerds, the cold power-politics of neoconservatives, or the "for the lulz" attitude of the *chan imageboards from 10 years ago. That pretty much leaves metal, and especially extreme metal or metal tied too closely with archaic European imagery, left to people who totally, unironically think all the dark, morbid aspects of metal music are good and want to manifest them in reality--which is to say, fascists. Or else, it could continue indulging in its aesthetics for their own sake and saying nothing, and simply be buried (by time and dust?) like so many other forms of art whose audiences ceased to relate to them, and strip-mined for its musical material by other genres. Or it might sacrifice its core aesthetics (like Liturgy did) and transform into a different sort of music at least as radically as the transition from acid rock to metal in the '70s. Or metal could fragment into multiple independent and mutually hostile genres favored by different cultural factions. I am very pessimistic about the future of metal and guitar music more generally. I am concerned that a time is coming where society will demand that I choose between the people I consider my friends and fellows and a form of music I've loved for half my life. The Mayhem cancellations are only a symptom of this shift, it's bigger than them, or us, or heavy metal. The culture war is going to keep intensifying for a long time, and metal as we know it is probably going to be destroyed by a world that no longer has any use for it as it is.


You are right. That is probably going to become universal, everywhere, in the coming decades, and which art is celebrated and which is denigrated will depend on which faction one belongs to. The overtly progressive and overtly reactionary artists will have supporters among their own people; fence-sitters and provocateurs will have very few friends and be a target for almost everybody. Art will be emotionally and politically charged whether the artist wants it to be or not. I have far more sympathy for one side than the other--indeed I think about how I will likely have to position myself to stay on that side in the future quite a lot these days, but I do not look forward to growing old in a society at war with itself. It's much, much bigger than "cancel culture". All this is only the beginning. In the '80s people grasped for meaning in their lives. Soon they will get it--far more than they ever asked for, a surfeit of meaning, a frenzy of hatred, recrimination, and violence over meaning.

Well said. metal is no longer a young rebellious scene. 'We' (broadly) used to fight against the PMRC mindset. Nowerdays it seems the scene itself is riddled with a PMRC mentality. I'm all for freedom of speach as Voltaire once wrote “I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.”

however, even decades ago there were also issues within the scene with SOD (because of SpeakEnglishOrDie, even though it was tongue in cheek) and especially Carnivore. Within the metal scene there has always been an aversion towards extreme nazism and fascism unless used in a funny way (to prove opposite points) just for aesthetic entertainment. A lot of people had issues with Laibach during the nineties for instance. But I've always used my own mantra "if I don't like it, I don't listen to it" Again, because of Voltaire.

The times of 'a few religious nutcases protesting Number Of The Beast in a certain town' are far behind us as it spreads faster thanks to internet.
Nowerdays this kind of news travels so fast even a villager in Rumania will have his say about a small protest on another continent.

Good post, but one thing which I think you haven't addressed with regard to GDOW is that it's someone with a high-school education's gloss on Nietzsche, particularly his most strident works like "Antichrist". At the time it came out I was wrapping up my Philosophy degree, and had written multiple papers on his work. When I put it on for the first time I thought it was almost comical in it's one-dimensional reading of it's source material, but as you say it has a certain blunt power in it's directness.

Your comment on fence-sitting and provocation is really interesting. I'm 100% right with you about seeing the trend towards being uncomfortable with cognitive dissonance and ambiguity in the generation who didn't experience the 80's and 90's. I spent as much time if not more what in would today be called "Edgelord" circles as Metal ones in my younger days - bands like Laibach, Boyd Rice/NON, Death in June, Whitehouse, Brighter Death Now etc, zines like "ANSWER ME!", that whole Feral House publishing scene, but voted Green since I was old enough to vote, went to demonstrations, was totally behind the anti-globalization protests .Very much a product of my teens in the 1990s you could say. Today that stuff doesn't fly at all because you would get "shot from both sides" - either taken too literally or attacked from the right as being "degenerate". I agree that there isn't a lot of space left for ambiguity and "semiotic play" anymore - the way it used to be common to just present a catalog of fucked up and surreal shit without comment that's so internally contradictory that it only makes "sense" as absurdism or surrealism is pretty much extinct. Take two 90s underground touch-points for examples - "Daria" and "Ghost world". The way Daria watches "Sick, Sad World" with this sense of amused detachment disguising a purient interest, and the section in Ghost World where they have a frenemy who (ironically given the topic at hand) runs a zine called "MAYHEM" dedicated to "morbid and offensive things, such as Nazis, serial killers, guns, circus freaks, torture, snuff films, and so forth" both ring completely true in terms of the period just before the Internet took off, but seem like the product of another time today.

The sad thing is that the american narrative, and increasingly in other parts of the western world as well, is so dualistic. There are two sides - pick your poison! People tend to buy a package deal - "I lean right therefore I should stand for everything that the current right stands for". I was never like that, never liked to conform to any one ideology or one movement. It is entirely possible to be pro-life and an enviromentalist. To be vegan and a monarchist. To be deeply religious and be on the left wing etc. More people need to figure out what they think is right and not be molded by social media algorithms and social movements that cast out anyone who doesn't conform.

I don't think there's going to be a precedent really - people have been saying that for years, but really it's just how shit goes sometimes, governments can be overly censorious, etc. I don't think there's really any more of a slippery slope than there has been any other time in the past 10 years or so.

Same here. I'd venture an uneducated guess that these cancellations reflect more Brazilian internal issues than ones of a global scale. Let's not forget that the history of Mayhem is exceptionally extreme and easy to piggyback on, for better (cult status) or worse (accusations). How many bands can be named with whom all of this more or less applies:

(The inclusion of suicide is strange, but maybe it's a poor wording of encitemrnt to suicide, which kind of applies too.)

Honestly speaking, this just comes off as pseudo-intellectual nonsense to me. The observation that bigots scapegoat people because of immutable characteristics or reasons beyond their control (race, sexual orientation etc.) to draw attention away from their own personal failings (or more pressing societal/economic/political problems in general) is as old as time. One does not have to be a fascist or have a fascist mindset to see that as weakness in thinking. Even people like Arnold Schwarzenegger have pointed this out (in that recent video he released trying to reach people on the far right and convince them to change their ways), that it's much easier to point the finger at others (whether those others are immigrants, sexual minorities or anyone else) rather than take a look in the mirror and take responsibility for your own actions. That is far from any indication of a belief in fascism. But of course if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I can't say with 100% certainty that Mayhem don't have any animus towards neurodivergent people, but they've never given any indication for me to believe they do. Writing lyrics inspired by Nietzschean philosophy for an album that's 20+ years old does not serve as convincing enough evidence for me.

Also, what's with all of this doomposting about metal going extinct because of increasing political polarization? People are honestly getting pretty sick and tired of the culture wars and I think it's becoming increasingly clear they're basically nothing more than modern day bread and circuses that serve as a distraction from any attempts to solve the real economic, social, environmental etc. problems that humanity actual needs to deal with. The number of people actually spending all their time on Twitter or other social media websites to get more and more entrenched and radicalized in their views is actually a fairly small fraction. We should be concerned about it, of course, and we need to find solutions to the problem, but it's not this giant pandemic some seem to think it is.

Taking the cancellation of these shows as any sort of canary in the coal mine moment seems at best very premature and at worst fairly delusional. In any case, if we are heading for the dystopian reality some of you are talking about we'll have much bigger problems than underground metal shows being cancelled. If the polarization ever gets that extreme, the chances of things like armed conflicts happening increase fairly significantly.

I also think it's more specifically a Brazilian issue then a global issue. None of Mayhem's other concerts were cancelled on this tour, they played two shows in Chile and one show in Argentina after the Porto Alegre cancellation and no one in those countries cared. Both Chile and Argentina have left or center-left governments too, so it's clearly not because the governments are ideologically aligned with the far-right.

I think the statement they put out over the Brasilia show cancellation is worrisome because it tags the band for things former members (who are either long dead, like Euronymous and Dead, or have no relationship with the band anymore like Varg) did. I could understand if the show was cancelled solely because of things the current members did, but none of them murdered anyone or burned down churches. To me that's a dangerous road to go down. That sort of rationale could also easily apply to a band like Emperor since Samoth actually burnt down a church and Faust is a convicted murderer, even if he's not in the band anymore. Or even if we're not talking about actions that extreme, there's enough ambiguity there that one might be concerned about whether bands that write lyrics about suicide would be able to play shows. Even if one assumes they're only bringing these issues up as a pretext to cancel the Mayhem show, there's now a precedent set and it's not at all clear that it won't be abused in the future.

Also I think the suicide thing might be a reference to Dead's suicide, I can't recall Mayhem ever writing any lyrics about encouraging suicide (maybe Life Eternal, but that's still a very big stretch) or really advocating it in the same way a band like Shining does. I guess you could read Euronymous's general misanthropic ravings in that way but even that's a stretch, and as mentioned before he's been dead for 30 years and no one who's currently in the band advocates suicide. Similarly I don't recall any lyrics about cannibalism either. I guess they might be referring to the urban legend about Euronymous making a stew from Dead's brains, but if they're actually taking that as a true fact I have to question the sort of research they've been doing.

Just a question from an uneducated person in regards to Nietzschean philosophy: Did he not despise Fascism, personally and also in his writings?

Yes, I was refering specifically to the Brazilian context, not in a global scale. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I can see why it might seen I'm incurring in the slippery slope fallacy, but Brazilian society is quite succeptible to moral outrages, and the authorities can be censorious in this regard. Also we don't have an equivalent to the First Amendment here, freedom of speech is far more limited. Not saying that's a bad thing per se, as I do support the existence of hate speech laws and I wouldn't consider myself a free speech absolutist, but sometimes these restrictions can ammount to censorship.
To give an example of what I'm talking about, the sales of games such as Everquest, Carmageddon, Counter Strike and Vampire the Masquerade have been prohibited or suspended in the past here in Brazil because of zealous DA offices and judges, acting upon moral outrages. So, for that reason, now that this incident has put extreme metal in the public eye, I wouldn't rule out that, for example, Cannibal Corpse have a show cancelled in the future because of "references to extreme violence and incitement to mutilation" in their music. I'm not saying this will happen for sure, of course, just that I wouldn't be surprised. Also the way this was handled, with public entities using blatant fake news as sources certainly left a bad taste in my mouth.



You make very good points here. And yes, because of the wording they used I'm almost certain were referring to Dead's suicide, not to incitement to suicide (which is a crime in Brazil and they would have used the specific wording for it). In regards to cannibalism, that might be it. The DA office used a lot of bullshit sources for their decision, including the Lords of Chaos movie and that nazi troll site Metallious (thinking it was the real deal).
In regards to Brazilian politics, we currently have a center-left government as well, but the religious right is certainly more influential in Brazil than it is in Argentina and Chile, by a very significant margin. While the movement for the show's cancellation started on the left, it wouldn't surprise me if the DA office who cancelled the last show is associated with the religious right, especially considering it happened in Brasilia, which is more conservative than average for Brazil.

For sure, more specifically probably the Dawn of the Black Hearts cover which could be seen as glorifying Dead's suicide.

That's a bootleg release and the only one glorifying Dead's suicide was Euronymous since he took the photos, Necrobutcher (among others) was completely disgusted by his actions and quit the band over it. I realize the DA's office probably didn't do their homework on it (assuming that's what their concern was) but even so it still goes back to blaming current members of the band for something a long deceased past member did. Anyway it's kind of irrelevant at this point since the show's been cancelled, it doesn't really matter what their reason for the mention of suicide in their statement was.

He died in 1900 having been catastrophically ill for 10 years, so it's a moot point - he was dead long before there was an ideology to have an opinion about. As for his own opinions, their legacy is disputed. You could read sections of it like Mayhem did as a polemic against conventional morality - a continuation of Hegel's Master/Slave dialectic in a very negative direction. But he certainly wasn't a fan of the military chauvinism of 1870s Germany, and much like Walt Whitman in America a decade earlier, registered as a conscientious objector and worked as a nurse in a hospital rather than fight.
He's also a very influential thinker on the left - his "Genealogy of morals" is the direct precursor of modern critical theory. You wont do a Humanities degree without having to engage with his writing.

From what I've seen (I'm not a Nietzsche guy), I think it's pretty clear that he despised German nationalism, yes. And IIRC, his perceived friendliness to the stuff is often taken to be (in large part) an unfortunate consequence of his sister's activities, including the publication of Will to Power, a sort of mish-mash of journal notes, drafts, other things not intended for publication...I'm shaky on the details.

But he's not really a fan of democracy, egalitarianism, etc., either. "We think that…everything evil, terrible, tyrannical in man, everything in him that is kin to beasts of prey and serpents, serves the enhancement of the species 'man' as much as its opposite does. Indeed, we do not even say enough when we say only that much."

It's tricky. This commentary puts it well: "Even the casual reader knows, of course, that Nietzsche has intense opinions about everything, from German cuisine to the unparalleled brilliance (in Nietzsche’s estimation) of Bizet's operas, not to mention various and sundry 'political' matters. The interpretive question, however, is whether scattered remarks and parenthetical outbursts add up to systematic views on questions of philosophical significance about politics." - Nietzsche's Lack of a Political Philosophy

Interesting that they included murder, suicide, violence as a reason, would this be because they realise the neo Nazi tag is very dubious at best? And are they going to start banning other acts who promote such things as well, like hip-hop acts for example? Hip-hop in the 90s was rife with homophobia and misogyny, coupled with the violence and nihilism, wouldn't that also warrant bans going by this?

The majority of the people who would have been going to this show are probably already mayhem fans and are already familiar with their music, lyrics and history so it's not as if a huge wave of people are going to be converted and influenced by some message that these groups think they are trying to relay. As someone previously pointed out, this seems to me nothing more than an easy win for these groups in Brazil, you're not going to get much pushback beyond people in the metal community and no one is really going to dig into it to find out if Mayhem are actually neo Nazi or not and judging by this thread, there have been no concrete arguments presented that state that they have any neo Nazi leanings in their music at all.

Banning any shows or art unless actively promoting a dangerous agenda or trying to convert people into said agenda is not something I like to see happen personally. If you have a problem with it by all rights protest and inform other people to make their own decisions, but by banning or cancelling it you are making their decisions for them and people go into this hive mind mentality and not actually question why and just accept it.

This is very true. Something in human nature (broadly speaking) compels people to "go with the herd" and stick with what their "side" thinks and does. So to really learn to question everything and think it through seems to be a dying art sometimes.

Yes, it eventually leads right back to fascism, doesn't it? The very thing they swear they're against.

Yes, Nietzsches thought is very interesting that way. He appeals to both extreme right and extreme left people. He is a forerunner to postmodern thought at the same time as he was staunchly against egalitarianism and democracy. Sometimes people call him an aristocratic radicalist which says a lot about him and how unique he was.

As you guys have said he was dead long before there was a fascist ideology so we can't say he was either for or against such a thing. We do know that he disliked mass movements though, he was an elitist individualist. He did express dislike for german nationalism for example which wouldn't fly in the coming NSDAP of course. But he was also hard on the jews (and of course the christians).

The basis of his thought is that with religion loosing influence (this is where the famous quote "God is dead, and we have killed him" comes from) there is a void created in peoples lives. We used to know what to base our lives around, we had an axis mundi, but all this is lost when religion goes away. We become nihilistic and that is a problem according to Nietzsche (so many claim he is a nihilist which is utterly wrong - he saw nihilism as the disease for which his philosophy could become the medicine). He wasn't keen on a return to religion since he also saw that metaphysically religion actually also was a nihilism (putting value into something wholly other, transcendent, which really isn't there). He proposed that we create a new morality (a revaluation of all values) based on life here and now (immanence). This is for the strong people. The strong should strive for greatness, to become something more than man (übermensch). The herd, the others, the slaves (in his lingo) prefer however to obey and to be weak and Nietzsche is perfectly fine with that. It's sort of a water seeks it's own level type of thinking. As we mentioned before he also opened the door to interpretation of reality which the left wing has been very influenced by (his perspectivism).

Regardless of who is doing the cancelling isn't that the reason they usually give? That that which is banned is actively promoting dangerous ideas? The problem here is that we humans can never agree on what is a dangerous idea.

Fair enough - certainly there's always these internal issues. I can definitely see that these kinds of bans and free speech things for "dangerous" art can be foreboding. Many times it seems like political posturing. But yeah not trying to be American-centric or anything.

Jeezus christ, I log back into this forum after one month and this is the first thread I come across. Why is it that every time a thread like this pops up, there's people crawling out of the woodwork to either defend the bands that are being "cancelled" or just to complain about "cancel culture" in general? I'm disappointed, man. Continually. Way too many of you place your own selfish need to be entertained above taking a stand, recognizing gross shit when you see it, and taking steps to avoid it. Not only that, but within TWO pages I see multiple people complaining about "racism against white people". Good lord, as if that was actually a problem. Why not consider the difference in sentiment between negative attitudes about white people and negative attitudes about black people? If you, as a white person, are offended by a POC complaining about the appropriation and denigration of black slang by white people, then just think how POC felt (and still feel) when they were denigrated, beaten down, enslaved, and seen as subhuman by white people throughout history. You've got it really fucking easy. Your offense and perceived racism against you means nothing compared to what others go through. So as a white person, when you hear someone say "Fucking white people" or "White people ruin everything", sit down, shut up, and take your lumps. You are going to be fine.

It's dualistic because people as a whole are finally coming around to rooting out the scumbags in society and telling them that they have no place in a kind, egalitarian environment because they are a disruption to it and will not change to become decent human beings. I don't view this polarization as bad at all. It's pretty good, actually. One side wants humanity to prosper with equal opportunities and freedoms for all, not have to go bankrupt over healthcare, have a choice about whether or not to have a kid, and exist without fear of being beaten down on account of race, queer identity, etc. The other side wants to take that away. It's not hard to see which one is better, unless you're a scumbag.

I really hate it when people frame progressive standpoints as "following the herd" or "social media trends", as if they're that worthless and the people who hold them lack that much conviction. Why not consider that progressive viewpoints are the natural step to take if you've got decency in your soul? It's got zilch to do with social media trends, just with humans wanting the world to be kinder to us all.

I wouldn't associate with, say, a person if they were a great, nice person to me and were progressive in most ways, but believed that teaching kids that queer people exist is akin to child grooming. One bad apple rots the whole barrel.

Big difference between the two. The PMRC was trying to get stuff thrown out based on its... anti-religious imagery, sexual imagery, and curse words. Metal these days is trying to get stuff thrown out based on its fascist imagery and fascist sympathy. It's pretty clear which one of those actions is more irrational. Likewise, it's pretty clear which one of those messages does more harm.

And there's still plenty of room to be rebellious in metal! As long as forum posts like the ones I'm addressing exist, as long as widespread controversy is attracted by stating the simple truth that people deserve to have their existence unimpeded despite their queer identity, social standing, race, or ethnicity, there will always be room to be rebellious by stating that truth. In metal, you just gotta change up your lyrics a little bit. There's a band I came across recently called Transgressive that has taken a big step in that direction.

Really, is that what leads back to fascism? I don't think Hitler came to power by canceling Emperor shows or something. Saying the cancellation of a show from a band that has very consciously and flagrantly flirted with Nazi and extremist imagery is a step towards fascism is silly and hyperbolic.


As a person of color, this kind of faux-progressive nonsense bugs the hell out of me. Especially when it comes from white 'allies' who think their responsibility to achieving racial justice stops at telling other white people to shut up. Obviously hearing someone say 'fucking white people' is not on the same level as the injustices people of color have faced and continue to face in the US. That doesn't mean telling white people to 'sit down and shut up' isn't a dumb and unproductive thing that just confirms every silly stereotype about people who actually put in the work for racial justice in this country. Most people who hear '[group they belong to] ruin everything' are not going to sit down and shut up. At best, most of them are just going to disengage. A good number are probably going to think, oh hey, maybe there is something to all those right-wing nuts telling me racial justice is a code-word for making white people hate themselves for being white. It's stupid and pointless.

Well, I'm not one to talk about whether or not POC saying "white people ruin everything" is good or not - I'm white. But it is very understandable why some people would say that.

That's pretty obvious.

Well I'm black, and as the one who originally posted "fucking white people" in response to Oxenkiller's usage of "woke", I am in complete agreement with everything L_O_D posted. He was merely responding to the absurd misinterpretation that assumed I had some anti-white bias and the reasons why it is rather ridiculous that white people should feel offended by such a thing when nothing is truly at stake for y'all and hasn't been historically (at least in North America). So yes, please shut the fuck up! This whole fucking thread has gone off the rails anyway (as per usual in these cases) and I'd rather not contribute anything further.

...but holy fuck, if this doesn't smack of that stay civil/respectable and maybe they'll listen to you BS some of us grew up hearing! Now THAT'S what bugs the hell out of me. Living in this country, sometimes the visceral response of "fucking white people" is wholly justified so cheers to those who understand and don't need the meaning to be spelled out.

Yes Voltaire but Nazism is a crime(at least in my country,too Roman salute is perseguited)

Isn’t an opinion or revisionism ,this is the point.

Are Mayhem a band nazist?

For me no.

Cancel shows isn’t an intelligent move for me.



And Nietzsche thinking was before nazism, Reden an die deutsche Nation was written vs France and in 1808 but it has a remarkable influence on Nazi thought but Fichte was far away from that thinking.
We Need always contextualize or we make an error of method.

Americans should clearly just not be left alone with philosophy and politics this thread is a testament to that

I don't think you understand. I don't really care about people of color saying stuff like that, especially in our own spaces or with one another. I don't think it's helpful, but I get it. I do find it annoying when people think telling members of a privileged class to 'sit down and shut up' is in any way a useful form of activism in the pursuit of racial justice, particularly when it's coming from white 'allies'.


Nice strawman. I'm going to assume you misunderstood me like Lord of Diamonds up there did, mainly because I'm not interested in playing respectability politics, or debating its merits.


Right, 'cause Europeans are notorious for batting a thousand when it comes to that...