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Gemini 7 Rising
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 am
Posts: 729
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:21 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
Yes, it eventually leads right back to fascism, doesn't it? The very thing they swear they're against.

Really, is that what leads back to fascism? I don't think Hitler came to power by canceling Emperor shows or something. Saying the cancellation of a show from a band that has very consciously and flagrantly flirted with Nazi and extremist imagery is a step towards fascism is silly and hyperbolic.


Yes, eventually, if taken to the extreme, one central entity or segment of a population monitoring and regulating everything (particularly art, media, speech and propaganda) to their own specific agenda and set of standards- and thereby deciding for everyone what is "appropriate" or "not appropriate"/tolerable or not to be tolerated- well, that brings you right back to fascism, doesn't it?

I'm not saying it's happening or going to happen, because most people understand. And they know they want to decide for themselves what to support, watch, listen to, etc., they know they don't want others deciding for them. And a lot of artists are pushing back too. Chris Rock's Netflix special 'Selective Outrage' is a great current example of this and he knocks it out of the park, calling out all sides on their bullshit. My point is simply that that's where the road of "cancel culture", taken to the extreme, leads... to fascism.

And I'm not sure your point about Hitler canceling Emperor shows (kind of an absurd notion to begin with) but Hitler did come to power through (among other things) strict control and regulation of media and propaganda, did he not?

marc1978 wrote:
I'm all for freedom of speech as Voltaire once wrote “I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.


^ Anyhow, this is my general stance also, though I'm all for people pulling together to deny any and all financial support to known racists, pedophiles, and so on. You know, the usual scum which most of us agree on
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Space_alligator
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 714
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:13 am 
 

Just remembered a song called "Swastika Eyes" by Primal Scream, that had a fairly successful Chemical Brothers remix.

Based on the context of this thread, would either be banned in Brazil?
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dike
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:46 am 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
It's dualistic because people as a whole are finally coming around to rooting out the scumbags in society and telling them that they have no place in a kind, egalitarian environment because they are a disruption to it and will not change to become decent human beings. I don't view this polarization as bad at all. It's pretty good, actually. One side wants humanity to prosper with equal opportunities and freedoms for all, not have to go bankrupt over healthcare, have a choice about whether or not to have a kid, and exist without fear of being beaten down on account of race, queer identity, etc. The other side wants to take that away. It's not hard to see which one is better, unless you're a scumbag.


That's why I try to not engage with people of the right or the left who hold this view. Because nothing good will come to it. It breeds fanaticism and irrationality. It breeds violence and hateful speech. It is contrary to discussion and understanding. If one categorically despises people based on even just one opinion where they disagree ("one bad apple rots the whole barrel") then I'm not interested. That, if anything, is contrary to progress.

Quote:
I really hate it when people frame progressive standpoints as "following the herd" or "social media trends", as if they're that worthless and the people who hold them lack that much conviction. Why not consider that progressive viewpoints are the natural step to take if you've got decency in your soul? It's got zilch to do with social media trends, just with humans wanting the world to be kinder to us all.


It's not just about the left, the right wingers work in the very same way. In general the public debate is so lacking of intellect and increasingly about feelings. It's dumbed down and plain stupid a lot of the time because people are just in their DFP. It's like and ideological version of World War 1.

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:

And I'm not sure your point about Hitler canceling Emperor shows (kind of an absurd notion to begin with) but Hitler did come to power through (among other things) strict control and regulation of media and propaganda, did he not?


If someone knows better please correct me but I don't think Hitler had that influence before he came into power. But whilst in power he sure did cancel art of different kinds which didn't fit in with his world view.

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BillyR
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:20 am
Posts: 166
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:59 am 
 

Metal_On_The_Ascendant wrote:
Well I'm black, and as the one who originally posted "fucking white people"


Bro, as a fellow black man i feel completely justified in calling you a racist bigot.

Im married to a WHITE Swedish woman, our 3 children are mixed race, do you have any idea how offensive your statement is?

That is precisely the kind of narrowminded, dumb generalization that causes shit in the first place.

SKIN COLOUR SHOULD NOT BE YOUR FIRST GO TO WHEN SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU.

Im surprised the moderator's/admin haven't banned your dumb ass, as im sure they would of done had your statement been reversed.


As for Mayhem.

I worked on one of the bands European tours back in the early 90's. I wouldnt say any of them have any kind of serious fascist ideology, i remember Sven Kristiansen for instance as being a really great, intelligent guy.

However, the rest of them, in particular Jan are what you would probably call, dumbass racists. Anyone who remembers Jan's Facebook profile will remember his endless sharing of anything Anti immigration, and his even dumber drum tech and his endless racist bullshit. The laughable thing was, most of these groups who's meme's and bullshit Jan shared would class him as not white anyway, but he's too thick to grasp this.

The simple fact is they will issue a statement to pacify everyone as soon as their income is threatened, while sniggering about it.

Much like Darkthrone's famous back peddle, while In the "Until the light takes us" doc Fenriz still claimed "Regardless of what people say, Varg is a great guy" (and many many other bands i could list)

As a black man working on tours with a lot of these bands (from late 90's onwards), the one thing that struck me was, none of them will actually say it to your face, therefore i just couldnt take any of these mostly middle class kids pretending to be Norse warriors even slightly seriously.

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Friaconte
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:35 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:37 am 
 

Reverse racism is a myth, by the way. It's basically being a flat-earther in sociological terms. Highly recommend people who believe in racism against white people to read "Racisms: An Introduction" by Garner to understand what racism actually is. There's a bigger connection to power than some of you understand. It's not simply a matter of someone calling you a white boy and you feeling sad.

I'm Brazilian and this news was pretty weird and surprising to me since there have been worse bands playing here, but one thing that I didn't see being mentioned is that people were doing this shit (first video): https://g1.globo.com/sc/santa-catarina/noticia/2022/11/02/mp-apura-saudacao-nazista-feita-por-centenas-de-manifestantes-em-ato-em-santa-catarina.ghtml

And I'm sure none of these morons know what Mayhem is, so while I'm cool with bands like Mayhem being cancelled, as mentioned here before by the other BR poster, all this anger is being directed to the wrong people.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:54 am 
 

dike wrote:
That's why I try to not engage with people of the right or the left who hold this view. Because nothing good will come to it. It breeds fanaticism and irrationality. It breeds violence and hateful speech. It is contrary to discussion and understanding. If one categorically despises people based on even just one opinion where they disagree ("one bad apple rots the whole barrel") then I'm not interested. That, if anything, is contrary to progress.


I'd much rather associate with a zealous leftist who's willing to stand by downtrodden groups of people no matter what than an zealous rightist who's trying to invalidate those people's very existence. The left and right are not the same beyond a very superficial resemblance in zealotry. One side of the political spectrum is objectively worse than another. Not everything is subjective, not every opinion is valid and worth listening to if it's based on delusion and prejudice. You are yet another individual I've stumbled upon who's drank enlightened centrist kool aid and has no understanding of context and plain objective reality. One down, many more to go.

Quote:
It's not just about the left, the right wingers work in the very same way.

It's real funny how your kind says that all the time, but you only seem to go after leftists when they do shit, huh? And play the apologists for rightists' disgusting actions? Real funny how that shows where your priorities actually lie.
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Ezadara
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 607
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:37 am 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
Yes, eventually, if taken to the extreme, one central entity or segment of a population monitoring and regulating everything (particularly art, media, speech and propaganda) to their own specific agenda and set of standards- and thereby deciding for everyone what is "appropriate" or "not appropriate"/tolerable or not to be tolerated- well, that brings you right back to fascism, doesn't it?

By that logic, literally any limitation on speech or expression is a 'step towards fascism'. To some extent, a segment of society is always deciding what is 'appropriate' for the rest of society-- whether it's the BCFCO telling people under 18 they can't watch a certain movie under any circumstances, or a school board voting to change its curriculum's history textbook because the one in use refers to slaves in the American south as 'labor migrants', or a federal government prohibiting any speech that may constitute an incitement to violence. Any of this could, I guess, constitute a move towards fascism 'if taken to the extreme', but calling them such would be silly and intellectually lazy. You have to think a little more critically about the issue-- otherwise you just come across like those right-wingers who think 'antifa are the real fascists!' is an incisive, thoughtful point.

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dike
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:34 am 
 

BillyR wrote:
The laughable thing was, most of these groups who's meme's and bullshit Jan shared would class him as not white anyway, but he's too thick to grasp this.


What is his ethnic origin? I also always though he didn't look (northern) european and found his quote on whitness a little bit strange coming from him.

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:

I'd much rather associate with a zealous leftist who's willing to stand by downtrodden groups of people no matter what than an zealous rightist who's trying to invalidate those people's very existence.


I don't ideologically associate with zealous people at all. Seems like the most sensible thing to do. Zealous people are almost always (partially) blind.

Quote:
You are yet another individual I've stumbled upon who's drank enlightened centrist kool aid and has no understanding of context and plain objective reality.


I've been called many things but centrist as an insult is a first! :lol:

I'll roll with the punches...

Quote:
It's real funny how your kind says that all the time, but you only seem to go after leftists when they do shit, huh? And play the apologists for rightists' disgusting actions? Real funny how that shows where your priorities actually lie.


I've critiqued both left and right positions in this thread. As I said, being zealous often causes partial (word) blindness!

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Durag
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:51 pm
Posts: 385
Location: Republic Of Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:07 pm 
 

Friaconte wrote:
Reverse racism is a myth, by the way. It's basically being a flat-earther in sociological terms. Highly recommend people who believe in racism against white people to read "Racisms: An Introduction" by Garner to understand what racism actually is. There's a bigger connection to power than some of you understand. It's not simply a matter of someone calling you a white boy and you feeling sad.


You do realize not all white people are one and the same ethnicity, right? The constant American centric views on race online becomes incredibly tiring. There is definitely a power dynamic, no denying that, but saying racism against white people (or reverse racism as terminally online people call it) isn't a thing is just a fallacy. My people were oppressed and beaten down, subjugated and treated as subhuman beings on our own lands for centuries by our closest neighbor and taking power dynamics into consideration, its ok for me to hate English people due to what they did to my peoples for 800 years but its not OK for an English person to hate an Irish person? Both of us are obviously white.

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Raven_Augustus
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:30 pm
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:31 pm 
 

Fucking Americans.

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Gemini 7 Rising
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Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 am
Posts: 729
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:47 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
Yes, eventually, if taken to the extreme, one central entity or segment of a population monitoring and regulating everything (particularly art, media, speech and propaganda) to their own specific agenda and set of standards- and thereby deciding for everyone what is "appropriate" or "not appropriate"/tolerable or not to be tolerated- well, that brings you right back to fascism, doesn't it?

By that logic, literally any limitation on speech or expression is a 'step towards fascism'. To some extent, a segment of society is always deciding what is 'appropriate' for the rest of society-- whether it's the BCFCO telling people under 18 they can't watch a certain movie under any circumstances, or a school board voting to change its curriculum's history textbook because the one in use refers to slaves in the American south as 'labor migrants', or a federal government prohibiting any speech that may constitute an incitement to violence. Any of this could, I guess, constitute a move towards fascism 'if taken to the extreme', but calling them such would be silly and intellectually lazy. You have to think a little more critically about the issue-- otherwise you just come across like those right-wingers who think 'antifa are the real fascists!' is an incisive, thoughtful point.


That's why I took the time to differentiate between the particular elements and went on to say "I don't think it's happening or will happen". Most people get that antifa are/were protesting real injustices and that the extreme right-wingers (of the Jan. 6/maga variety) are the ignorant, who've been indoctrinated by right-wing media and which, with Trump at the helm, is/was clearly moving towards or full-on embracing fascist strategies. That was clear even at his earliest rallies before he was elected president. You watched those going, "Uh-oh. WTF is happening here?" But my point stands that, if the right elements align on either side and then get out of control, you end up with at least some variation of fascism.

dike wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:

And I'm not sure your point about Hitler canceling Emperor shows (kind of an absurd notion to begin with) but Hitler did come to power through (among other things) strict control and regulation of media and propaganda, did he not?


If someone knows better please correct me but I don't think Hitler had that influence before he came into power. But whilst in power he sure did cancel art of different kinds which didn't fit in with his world view.


Well, he started small (on the rise to power) with the anti-Jewish propaganda, but it caught on fast because the German people were mad and looking for someone to blame. A lot of their anger came from feeling they were fucked over after World War I and that they basically became the world's scapegoats and got the worst deal. So the conditions were right and it grew fast and intense and then he (Hitler) was entirely in power. At least that's my general understanding of the circumstances. So, I'd say he had enough influence early on, before he came to power, to get the ball rolling. It doesn't take much if people are mad or misinformed and looking for who to blame.

edit: italics, clarify
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Last edited by Gemini 7 Rising on Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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HighwayCorsair
Knows a guy

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:40 pm
Posts: 693
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:55 pm 
 

Unrelated to everything about Mayhem specifically, but fascism is an actual, specific political ideology, not "the state bans things." It means something. Calling any shows/media/whatever you like getting shut down "fascism" arbitrarily is not only outright wrong but waters down the common definition of the word, which is exactly what actual fascists want- to have the word's bite be removed by making it sound like something other than what it is.

I am pretty sick of the whole "the left are the REAL fascists" thing and talking about all of this stuff as if it's even in the same realm. Canceling shows or even suppressing Nazis outright, even by the state, is in no way fascism unless it's as a part of an actual fascist movement. Even totalitarianism is not the same thing as fascism by default.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35140
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:04 pm 
 

dike wrote:
The sad thing is that the american narrative, and increasingly in other parts of the western world as well, is so dualistic. There are two sides - pick your poison! People tend to buy a package deal - "I lean right therefore I should stand for everything that the current right stands for". I was never like that, never liked to conform to any one ideology or one movement. It is entirely possible to be pro-life and an enviromentalist. To be vegan and a monarchist. To be deeply religious and be on the left wing etc. More people need to figure out what they think is right and not be molded by social media algorithms and social movements that cast out anyone who doesn't conform.


I mean you're right that it's bad to conform too strongly to a lot of ideologies, but it's also bad to stand for nothing too, as I'm sure most of us would agree... identifying as antifascist is a good thing. Same for anticapitalist. I don't like labels either, but sometimes you don't have to force different views just to avoid em.

And my issue with these comments is your last part here - like it's easy to claim anyone is "modified by social media algorithms" if one just doesn't like what they believe, even if those are their actual deeply held convictions.

These debates always turn into a mess because everyone brings their own perceptions and assumes that's how the world is. There's very little common consensus really. Like I am sure my own comments can be seen as "America centric." Just comes with the territory. That's the main frame of reference I have for things unless I'm reading something specific. You just have to be open to learning at the end of the day. I've come to be very tired of the endless shouting matches and talking-down like LoD's posts. I used to do plenty of that but it never accomplished anything. That said I am not interested in really relating much to right-wingers on the vast majority of issues. Ultimately a lot of what I am saying here is 1, screaming at people online usually does nothing, and 2, you also do not have to subscribe to ideas of "all sides" or give credence to harmful ideas to be smart or reasonable.
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Kalaratri
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 2864
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:27 pm 
 

I honestly think some posters here are making a far bigger deal out of this then it deserves to be. While I think there were problems with the way the Brazilian government handled this and the statement they released, ultimately it is their right, whether you think it is right or wrong, to decide whether bands can perform or not in their country. It seems some people are acting like the sky is falling when there are no indications that Brazil is on the verge of slipping into totalitarianism or anything of that nature.

Honestly, the members of Mayhem, whatever you may think of them, have actually handled this situation with far more of a level head then I'd expect. They accepted the cancellations, didn't go start attacking anyone responsible for them, and whether you think they're being sincere or just trying to protect themselves financially, put out that statement against racism, homophobia etc. While I'm sure they're not happy about what happened they're not incessantly whining about it on social media or trying to pretend that the Brazilian government is some sort of totalitarian fascist regime for blocking them from playing.

The actual cancellations are kind of immaterial now, they happened and everyone involved has pretty much moved on. We already ran through the "are Mayhem nazis/fascists" discussion, a discussion of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy and now we're at the usual "Are the politicians the real fascists for cancelling the show?" stage that all of these sorts of threads seem to reach. I wonder where this thread will go next.


Last edited by Kalaratri on Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4651
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:34 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
I honestly think some posters here are making a far bigger deal out of this then it deserves to be. While I think there were problems with the way the Brazilian government handled this and the statement they released, ultimately it is their right, whether you think it is right or wrong, to decide whether bands can perform or not in their country. It seems some people are acting like the sky is falling when there are no indications that Brazil is on the verge of slipping into totalitarianism or anything of that nature.

Honestly, the members of Mayhem, whatever you may think of them, have actually handled this situation with far more of a level head then I'd expect. They accepted the cancellations, didn't go start attacking anyone responsible for them, and whether you think they're being sincere or just trying to protect themselves financially, put out that statement against racism, homophobia etc. While I'm sure they're not happy about what happened they're not incessantly whining about it on social media or trying to pretend that the Brazilian government is some sort of totalitarian fascist regime for blocking them from playing.

Where is the statement? I'm curious about it but I haven't been able to find it.

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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1777
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:35 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
dike wrote:
That's why I try to not engage with people of the right or the left who hold this view. Because nothing good will come to it. It breeds fanaticism and irrationality. It breeds violence and hateful speech. It is contrary to discussion and understanding. If one categorically despises people based on even just one opinion where they disagree ("one bad apple rots the whole barrel") then I'm not interested. That, if anything, is contrary to progress.


I'd much rather associate with a zealous leftist who's willing to stand by downtrodden groups of people no matter what than an zealous rightist who's trying to invalidate those people's very existence. The left and right are not the same beyond a very superficial resemblance in zealotry. One side of the political spectrum is objectively worse than another. Not everything is subjective, not every opinion is valid and worth listening to if it's based on delusion and prejudice. You are yet another individual I've stumbled upon who's drank enlightened centrist kool aid and has no understanding of context and plain objective reality. One down, many more to go.

Quote:
It's not just about the left, the right wingers work in the very same way.

It's real funny how your kind says that all the time, but you only seem to go after leftists when they do shit, huh? And play the apologists for rightists' disgusting actions? Real funny how that shows where your priorities actually lie.


I'm done reading your hate.

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Kalaratri
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:41 pm 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
Kalaratri wrote:
I honestly think some posters here are making a far bigger deal out of this then it deserves to be. While I think there were problems with the way the Brazilian government handled this and the statement they released, ultimately it is their right, whether you think it is right or wrong, to decide whether bands can perform or not in their country. It seems some people are acting like the sky is falling when there are no indications that Brazil is on the verge of slipping into totalitarianism or anything of that nature.

Honestly, the members of Mayhem, whatever you may think of them, have actually handled this situation with far more of a level head then I'd expect. They accepted the cancellations, didn't go start attacking anyone responsible for them, and whether you think they're being sincere or just trying to protect themselves financially, put out that statement against racism, homophobia etc. While I'm sure they're not happy about what happened they're not incessantly whining about it on social media or trying to pretend that the Brazilian government is some sort of totalitarian fascist regime for blocking them from playing.

Where is the statement? I'm curious about it but I haven't been able to find it.


See MoonlitKnight's post at the top of the second page, apparently they sent a statement to Porto Alegre's biggest newspaper as a response to the controversy. I guess I'll repost his translation from Portuguese again:

Quote:
"Mayhem is an apolitical entity with thousand of fans around the world, with all kinds of experiences and all kinds of backgrounds, ideas and preferences, and every Mayhem fan is treated with the same respect. Neither the band or any of its members support racism, homophobia or any other kind of "hate crime". Even though reports contrary to this have circulated in the past about individual members of the band, this is something from the distant past and it has never been considered as an official position of the band. Every person in this world lives and has to answer for their actions and ideas and will be judged accordingly; any sort of judgment based on the lived experience of a person, the color of their skin, their sexual preference or any other thing they can't control is an act of weakness and will be rejected by the band.
All Mayhem fans are welcome in the shows, no matter their lived experiences, beliefs or orientation, as long as they don't disturb others. Mayhem believes in maxing your potential and freeing your mind of oppressive thoughts and ideas. Anything or anyone who diminishes you is you true enemy. Worldy concerns and social questions are beneath the mind's freedom.
Jan Axel & Mayhem"

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4651
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:44 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Kalaratri wrote:
I honestly think some posters here are making a far bigger deal out of this then it deserves to be. While I think there were problems with the way the Brazilian government handled this and the statement they released, ultimately it is their right, whether you think it is right or wrong, to decide whether bands can perform or not in their country. It seems some people are acting like the sky is falling when there are no indications that Brazil is on the verge of slipping into totalitarianism or anything of that nature.

Honestly, the members of Mayhem, whatever you may think of them, have actually handled this situation with far more of a level head then I'd expect. They accepted the cancellations, didn't go start attacking anyone responsible for them, and whether you think they're being sincere or just trying to protect themselves financially, put out that statement against racism, homophobia etc. While I'm sure they're not happy about what happened they're not incessantly whining about it on social media or trying to pretend that the Brazilian government is some sort of totalitarian fascist regime for blocking them from playing.

Where is the statement? I'm curious about it but I haven't been able to find it.


See MoonlitKnight's post at the top of the second page, apparently they sent a statement to Porto Alegre's biggest newspaper as a response to the controversy. I guess I'll repost his translation from Portuguese again:

Quote:
"Mayhem is an apolitical entity with thousand of fans around the world, with all kinds of experiences and all kinds of backgrounds, ideas and preferences, and every Mayhem fan is treated with the same respect. Neither the band or any of its members support racism, homophobia or any other kind of "hate crime". Even though reports contrary to this have circulated in the past about individual members of the band, this is something from the distant past and it has never been considered as an official position of the band. Every person in this world lives and has to answer for their actions and ideas and will be judged accordingly; any sort of judgment based on the lived experience of a person, the color of their skin, their sexual preference or any other thing they can't control is an act of weakness and will be rejected by the band.
All Mayhem fans are welcome in the shows, no matter their lived experiences, beliefs or orientation, as long as they don't disturb others. Mayhem believes in maxing your potential and freeing your mind of oppressive thoughts and ideas. Anything or anyone who diminishes you is you true enemy. Worldy concerns and social questions are beneath the mind's freedom.
Jan Axel & Mayhem"

For some reason I had completely missed that, thanks.

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Raven_Augustus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:30 pm
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:53 pm 
 

That was a very level headed and calm response. They didn't cry about it or declare cancel culture going too far. As far as I can tell the rest of the tour is going on as planned anyway.

Quote:
Every person in this world lives and has to answer for their actions and ideas and will be judged accordingly; any sort of judgment based on the lived experience of a person, the color of their skin, their sexual preference or any other thing they can't control is an act of weakness and will be rejected by the band.


Well said.

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Durag
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:51 pm
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Location: Republic Of Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:01 pm 
 

Yeah, i liked that response

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kovner1972
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:07 pm 
 

Quote:
Every person in this world lives and has to answer for their actions and ideas and will be judged accordingly; any sort of judgment based on the lived experience of a person, the color of their skin, their sexual preference or any other thing they can't control is an act of weakness and will be rejected by the band.


So much hypocrisy and eye-rolling in a couple of sentences. Unbelievable people swallow Mayhem's bullshit still...

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Kalaratri
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 2864
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:27 pm 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
Quote:
Every person in this world lives and has to answer for their actions and ideas and will be judged accordingly; any sort of judgment based on the lived experience of a person, the color of their skin, their sexual preference or any other thing they can't control is an act of weakness and will be rejected by the band.


So much hypocrisy and eye-rolling in a couple of sentences. Unbelievable people swallow Mayhem's bullshit still...


As far as I can tell they're not whining about other people judging them based on their past actions just as they're not whining about the cancellations, so I don't think they're being hypocrites. They acknowledge that members have said or done things in the past that contradict what they've said in this sentence in the same statement, but that they don't share those beliefs/views in the present and what they've written here is their official stance both as individuals and as a band. I'm not suggesting that anyone should take them at face value and again it's perfectly fine if someone feels they're just doing this to protect themselves and don't actually believe any of it, but I think given the situation I'm not sure what else they could have written. Anyone wanting them to release a statement would expect a condemnation of racism, homophobia and so on to be a part of it. I suppose they could've included some sort of explicit apology for their past actions, but aside from that the statement doesn't seem unreasonable (again, not arguing whether it's sincere or not).


Last edited by Kalaratri on Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ezadara
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:32 pm
Posts: 607
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:51 pm 
 

Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
That's why I took the time to differentiate between the particular elements and went on to say "I don't think it's happening or will happen". Most people get that antifa are/were protesting real injustices and that the extreme right-wingers (of the Jan. 6/maga variety) are the ignorant, who've been indoctrinated by right-wing media and which, with Trump at the helm, is/was clearly moving towards or full-on embracing fascist strategies. That was clear even at his earliest rallies before he was elected president. You watched those going, "Uh-oh. WTF is happening here?" But my point stands that, if the right elements align on either side and then get out of control, you end up with at least some variation of fascism.

I mean, in that case... why even say it? Why complain that this all leads to fascism when you know it obviously doesn't? Feels like you're just wasting time with hypotheticals when actual, real fascism-- you know, the kind HighwayCorsair talked about earlier, with an actual definition-- is on the march around the world. Why waste time 'both sides'-ing it for no reason?

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dike
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:17 pm 
 

HighwayCorsair wrote:
Unrelated to everything about Mayhem specifically, but fascism is an actual, specific political ideology, not "the state bans things." It means something. Calling any shows/media/whatever you like getting shut down "fascism" arbitrarily is not only outright wrong but waters down the common definition of the word, which is exactly what actual fascists want- to have the word's bite be removed by making it sound like something other than what it is.


Yes!

Empyreal wrote:

And my issue with these comments is your last part here - like it's easy to claim anyone is "modified by social media algorithms" if one just doesn't like what they believe, even if those are their actual deeply held convictions.


I just think most people might start with one deeply held conviction but then algorithms come in and serve you with a package deal for everything else as well. Those who shout the loudest are usually those who have the most predictable beliefs that doesn't stray at all from the "correct" ideological line.

Quote:
These debates always turn into a mess because everyone brings their own perceptions and assumes that's how the world is. There's very little common consensus really. . . I've come to be very tired of the endless shouting matches and talking-down like LoD's posts. I used to do plenty of that but it never accomplished anything. That said I am not interested in really relating much to right-wingers on the vast majority of issues.


Yes! And once one person like this comes forth you can always count on people from the opposition storming to the front as well. I don't know if this thread started with someone like this from the left or the right but it's clear that once the ball got rolling it lured out all kinds of orchs :-D

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Gemini 7 Rising
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Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:08 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:04 pm 
 

Ezadara wrote:
Gemini 7 Rising wrote:
That's why I took the time to differentiate between the particular elements and went on to say "I don't think it's happening or will happen". Most people get that antifa are/were protesting real injustices and that the extreme right-wingers (of the Jan. 6/maga variety) are the ignorant, who've been indoctrinated by right-wing media and which, with Trump at the helm, is/was clearly moving towards or full-on embracing fascist strategies. That was clear even at his earliest rallies before he was elected president. You watched those going, "Uh-oh. WTF is happening here?" But my point stands that, if the right elements align on either side and then get out of control, you end up with at least some variation of fascism.

I mean, in that case... why even say it? Why complain that this all leads to fascism when you know it obviously doesn't? Feels like you're just wasting time with hypotheticals when actual, real fascism-- you know, the kind HighwayCorsair talked about earlier, with an actual definition-- is on the march around the world. Why waste time 'both sides'-ing it for no reason?


Is that what I'm doing, I'm "complaining" now? And did I say "all this leads to fascism"? I don't think I did in the way you're implying. But the reason to say whatever particular part you're referring to- I mean, I wrote 3 or 4 separate posts to articulate my point- the reason to say it is because sometimes there's a need to state the somewhat obvious. Stand-up comedians do it all the time... it lets people know they aren't the only ones who are secretly thinking a particular way, and it keeps things in check, sometimes, to poke fun at or illustrate a point through hypotheticals. Or to just point out some areas of hypocrisy, petty behavior, etc. I'm not talking about any particular "side" here, so don't assume that- take the politics out of it for a moment and just look at human nature and where we're at and how we got here (meaning polarized, adamant, nobody is ever "wrong" anymore about anything, etc.).

And also, I never implied that the rise of fascism shouldn't be taken seriously, I mean, quite the opposite if you go back and read even the post you just quoted above. So it seems you're kind of cherry picking and reading a lot between the lines of my basic point. If you don't agree, that's okay. As others have said, we all come at these topics from our own personal vantage points and our own life experience. My life experience is that it helps to take a somewhat philosophical and/or historical view of it all sometimes and not go to battle with every interpretation that's a little different than mine. That just gets exhausting. So you're not "wrong" and I'm not "right" and vice versa.

The topic at hand is, at the end of the day, a few Mayhem shows being cancelled. I think that's a little extreme in their case (and especially in light of their statements on the matter) and I don't see how it solves anything or furthers any cause. It just makes a few more people loathe "cancel culture", if that's what you want to call it. But I won't lose any sleep over it. I agree with, Idk, 80 or 90% of who/what gets "cancelled", but it's that extra 10-20% where it goes too far that they lose the people they need (not me, mind you, but certainly some people I know who are independents or libertarians) to win elections.

edit: word mistake
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Last edited by Gemini 7 Rising on Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hexenmacht46290
Has a GED in Gamercide

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:19 pm 
 

This band has made some good music. But they aren’t even good enough, to warrant six pages of discussion, about non-musical matters like this. They’re 50 year old alcoholics, and it seems likely that some of them have racist views. I’m pretty sure that that’s what you really need to know about them.

I think the band should be happy for this. If they weren’t offending people, then how could they be considered offensive? I thought that that was the point. What they should’ve done, is played a free show, on the sidewalk, outside the venue, with ridiculous costumes and stage show, and been super edgy, with their merch people selling merch, and collecting donation money, like busking. And then, when the police kick them out, they can cut themselves, or burn a bible/koran, whatever, maybe even take shits. That, would at least be entertaining.
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marc1978
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:41 am
Posts: 58
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:50 am 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
dike wrote:
That's why I try to not engage with people of the right or the left who hold this view. Because nothing good will come to it. It breeds fanaticism and irrationality. It breeds violence and hateful speech. It is contrary to discussion and understanding. If one categorically despises people based on even just one opinion where they disagree ("one bad apple rots the whole barrel") then I'm not interested. That, if anything, is contrary to progress.


I'd much rather associate with a zealous leftist who's willing to stand by downtrodden groups of people no matter what than an zealous rightist who's trying to invalidate those people's very existence. The left and right are not the same beyond a very superficial resemblance in zealotry. One side of the political spectrum is objectively worse than another. Not everything is subjective, not every opinion is valid and worth listening to if it's based on delusion and prejudice. You are yet another individual I've stumbled upon who's drank enlightened centrist kool aid and has no understanding of context and plain objective reality. One down, many more to go.

Quote:
It's not just about the left, the right wingers work in the very same way.

It's real funny how your kind says that all the time, but you only seem to go after leftists when they do shit, huh? And play the apologists for rightists' disgusting actions? Real funny how that shows where your priorities actually lie.


I'm done reading your hate.

Blocked.


I agree, Lord_Of_Diamonds is on that constant moral highground. Very annoying.
But, can you really block someone here?

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ironman8008
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:18 pm
Posts: 206
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:55 am 
 

That's a cowshit really. They play Israel this week haha. Bit of common sense, lefties :scratch:

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:11 pm 
 

BillyR wrote:
Bro, as a fellow black man i feel completely justified in calling you a racist bigot.

Im married to a WHITE Swedish woman, our 3 children are mixed race, do you have any idea how offensive your statement is?

That is precisely the kind of narrowminded, dumb generalization that causes shit in the first place.

I imagine you being British doesn't really do you any favors in understanding the context of American racism and why statements such as M_O_T_A's are justified.
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BillyR
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:20 am
Posts: 166
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:35 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
BillyR wrote:
Bro, as a fellow black man i feel completely justified in calling you a racist bigot.

Im married to a WHITE Swedish woman, our 3 children are mixed race, do you have any idea how offensive your statement is?

That is precisely the kind of narrowminded, dumb generalization that causes shit in the first place.

I imagine you being British doesn't really do you any favors in understanding the context of American racism and why statements such as M_O_T_A's are justified.


Bullshit, i lived in Florida for 6 years and "American racism" whatever the hell that is , is no different.

Racism is racism.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:04 pm 
 

In the most in-a-vacuum, surface-level sense imaginable, yes, saying "white people ruin everything" is racist. But, the thing is, that statement doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's got hundreds of years of being beaten down behind it. It's got a lack of progress toward an egalitarian world and horrific backslidings away from one behind it. It's got pent-up frustration at having your culture bastardized by the people who've beaten you down behind it.

In other words: it's 100 percent justified, regardless of whether or not it is objectively racist. If you poke a bear long enough, the claws come out. Downtrodden people owe peaceability and complacency to nobody and sooner or later, they're gonna start fighting dirty.
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BillyR
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:20 am
Posts: 166
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:38 am 
 

Well thank you for making excuses on behalf of my race, but thats just a sweeping generalization. Ive never felt beaten down, or had "pent of frustration at having 'my' culture bastardized". I mean, im black and work as a tour manager for metal bands, who are 99.9% white, should i stop as im bastardizing white mans culture?

Not all white people are responsible for the actions of a few.

I lived in Compton LA for 5 years before i moved to Boca Raton Florida, and if i apply a sweeping generalization, i can say my fellow black people steal anything that isnt nailed down, deal drugs and shoot each other, cos thats what i saw most days in Compton.

You cant say "Racism is bad" and "Well, racism is ok coming from this side because of this...."

Bottom line - there is no excuse for racism, and saying "Fucking white people", or "white people ruing everything" is just being a bigot while hiding behind your colour. Even dumber if you listen to metal, go burn your fucking metal records than and listen to music made strictly by black people then if its such a problem.

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4651
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:42 am 
 

I mean, if you can say "my fellow black people steal anything that isn't nailed down" then I/we/whoever can also say "my fellow white people ruin everything". I feel the discussion is a bit off topic for this forum at the moment. We were discussing how Mayhem are right wing for writing an album about alien abductions.

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BillyR
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:20 am
Posts: 166
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:47 am 
 

Gravetemplar wrote:
I mean, if you can say "my fellow black people steal anything that isn't nailed down" then I/we/whoever can also say "my fellow white people ruin everything".


Well done for spectacularly missing the point.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5153
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:48 am 
 

BillyR wrote:
Even dumber if you listen to metal, go burn your fucking metal records than and listen to music made strictly by black people then if its such a problem.


I have to admit it gave me a good chuckle to read "white people ruin everything" on a metal forum.

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maxxpower
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 pm
Posts: 399
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:00 am 
 

Too much energy being spent defending Mayhem here. White people have a really hard time admitting that they've said some dumbass things in the past. And yes, my wife is white and I'm brown, but she's not an idiot, she recognizes that white people have done a bunch of dumbass racist shit.

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Lord_Of_Diamonds
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:25 am 
 

BillyR wrote:
Well thank you for making excuses on behalf of my race, but thats just a sweeping generalization. Ive never felt beaten down, or had "pent of frustration at having 'my' culture bastardized". I mean, im black and work as a tour manager for metal bands, who are 99.9% white, should i stop as im bastardizing white mans culture?

Not all white people are responsible for the actions of a few.

I lived in Compton LA for 5 years before i moved to Boca Raton Florida, and if i apply a sweeping generalization, i can say my fellow black people steal anything that isnt nailed down, deal drugs and shoot each other, cos thats what i saw most days in Compton.

You cant say "Racism is bad" and "Well, racism is ok coming from this side because of this...."

Bottom line - there is no excuse for racism, and saying "Fucking white people", or "white people ruing everything" is just being a bigot while hiding behind your colour. Even dumber if you listen to metal, go burn your fucking metal records than and listen to music made strictly by black people then if its such a problem.

This just proves what I already imagined - you may be black, but you are privileged enough to not understand where I and M_O_T_A are coming from. Black people have been victims for hundreds of years and still are - they really don't need you or anyone else devaluing their concerns or making generalized comments about their race. White people have been at the top of the heap, by their own violent and evil doings, for hundreds of years. You can make a few generalized comments about them and they're gonna be fine. Yeah, no kidding, not all white people are racist. But you must understand that some people's guard goes up. Some people have suffered enough to where they see all of one group as the aggressor. In order to not see this, you must 1) lead a very privileged life or 2) be a legit scumbag.
maxxpower wrote:
Too much energy being spent defending Mayhem here. White people have a really hard time admitting that they've said some dumbass things in the past. And yes, my wife is white and I'm brown, but she's not an idiot, she recognizes that white people have done a bunch of dumbass racist shit.

Yeah, this, holy crap. It's not hard to get. I can't believe I'm actually engaging with people who are making the reverse racism argument and acting like M_O_T_A's comments are problematic. There's been an alarming uptick in the amount of gross shit that seems permissible here lately. First we get people openly discussing purchasing that new Harry Potter game and doing so with no pushback, and now we're getting people complaining about racism against white people. Good lord.
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Last edited by Morrigan on Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Member banned for continuing the same behaviour after a previous ban, making personal attacks and being a condescending asshole

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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 668
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:58 am 
 

kovner1972 wrote:
Just a question from an uneducated person in regards to Nietzschean philosophy: Did he not despise Fascism, personally and also in his writings?


I was waiting for a good time to bring Nietzsche into this, so I'm glad that it already happened. And yes, you're right: he absolutely despised anything that involved a "herd mentality," whether that ideology was based on a positive or negative attitude towards mankind. (Even going so far as estranging his own sister after learning of her affinity for antisemitism/nationalism.) Essentially, he thought that religion, the ideologies of nationalism/the state, race, etc. all were bottom-of-the-barrel sources of pride which are indulged in only by those too lazy or incapable of creating their own values. He wrote fairly often and in numerous ways that he was disgusted by the vast majority of his fellow Germans (he's pretty funny in trashing 'German culture,' too).
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Last edited by Nocturnal_Evil on Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Raven_Augustus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:30 pm
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:45 pm 
 

Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
First we get people openly discussing purchasing that new Harry Potter game and doing so with no pushback, and now we're getting people complaining about racism against white people. Good lord.

What is this world coming to. Smh.

EDIT: LOL you wrote this earlier in the thread
Lord_Of_Diamonds wrote:
Jeezus christ, I log back into this forum after one month and this is the first thread I come across.

You made it sound like you took a break and came back, but you got banned for 1 month for justifying harassment of people buying the new Harry Potter game. You're either unhinged or a really dedicated troll, either way I'm impressed at how much serious engagement you generate.

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into_the_pit
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm
Posts: 2948
Location: Hedonist Occupation Government
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:53 pm 
 

marc1978 wrote:
I agree, Lord_Of_Diamonds is on that constant moral highground. Very annoying.
But, can you really block someone here?


yes, go to user control panel > friends & foes > manage foes > enter the user you want to block > enhance board experience
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