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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:22 pm 
 

Simple you have to be capable to make experimental music or pseudo new metal stuff…

I prefer black album(omonimo)ten times…

It's not like you magically stop making the same old albums and then learn to experiment or avant-garde,I hope it’s more clear my concept..
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Raven_Augustus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:30 pm
Posts: 272
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:53 am 
 

Okay I understand now. Fair point, I wouldn't expect them to be great at something totally different after so many decades in the business, but I can respect the attempt at least. But like I said, I don't even like Lulu, so I'm not defending or anything.

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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:13 pm 
 

Yes we can agree on that..
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 4907
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:11 pm 
 

LuLu isn't all that experimental as well. It just falls short of accomplishing any of it's goals...

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democracyiscringe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:00 pm 
 

Here's an esoteric one, but Defiance's "Product of Society" has great production.
Every review I see whines about how it sounds. The guitars are leveled where they need to be and have a lot of friction. There's just enough bottom end to keep it from sounding thin. Drums are punchy and dynamic.
Actually, half the 80s metal albums people online complain about production-wise sound fine. Motorhead's Iron Fist? Famously "bad production." Yet it actually sounds fine. etc etc. I think people are just applying modern EQ and guitar tone trends to their expectations of old albums.

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:20 pm 
 

Lee Harrison wrote:
I prefer ten same albums like omonimo than pretentious and shitty experimental rock album if the result is Lulu…


I say it depends on what band we're talking about. For Metallica, I'd prefer them making Lulu than them making half-hearted thrash like Death Magnetic, or wallpaper like The Black Album. Now, if we're talking about a band like Motörhead or Axel Rudi Pell, then yes, I'd prefer their standard formula over them collaborating with a person associated with Andy Warhol (although Another Perfect Day is a great album, and some consider that the experimental Motörhead album). Ultimately, the quality of the art matters more than the ambition behind it. If somebody takes a huge risk and makes something bad, I'm not going to give it pity listens when I can enjoy myself by listening to a tried-and-true album that's good. However, if someone makes a tried-and-true album poorly, then that ambitious failure is definitely going to look a lot better by comparison.

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rrev0
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:43 am
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:48 pm 
 

KeeperOfTheMissingLink wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
I prefer ten same albums like omonimo than pretentious and shitty experimental rock album if the result is Lulu…


I say it depends on what band we're talking about. For Metallica, I'd prefer them making Lulu than them making half-hearted thrash like Death Magnetic, or wallpaper like The Black Album. Now, if we're talking about a band like Motörhead or Axel Rudi Pell, then yes, I'd prefer their standard formula over them collaborating with a person associated with Andy Warhol (although Another Perfect Day is a great album, and some consider that the experimental Motörhead album). Ultimately, the quality of the art matters more than the ambition behind it. If somebody takes a huge risk and makes something bad, I'm not going to give it pity listens when I can enjoy myself by listening to a tried-and-true album that's good. However, if someone makes a tried-and-true album poorly, then that ambitious failure is definitely going to look a lot better by comparison.


I actually agree with the reasoning. The way I see it, I'd rather a band experiment than put out a standard album that's leagues below their classic material. Even if the experiment fails, it's at least an attempt to give you a reason to listen to a new album over what you normally would.

I'm not really a Metallica fan, but I can't imagine a lot of their fans wanting to replay something like 72 Seasons years after the initial curiosity for it. But if Lulu was a success, that might be a different story.

Think a good example of this is a band like Napalm Death. If they released another standard, even decent grind album, I just don't think I would care that much. I have enough good Napalm Death to listen to. But because they successfully experimented, I'm still listening to an album like Apex Predator eight years later.

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democracyiscringe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 6:05 pm 
 

There's a "supergroup"-iness to Lulu. It's like that famously embarrassing Madonna promotional video she did where she had Jack Black, random rappers, and a dozen other celebrities in the same room--forced and calculated. There's not much musically experimental to it other than the surface level weirdness of two musical entities from very different artistic strata doing a collaboration. I mean, ugly dirge-rock with lots of minimalist passages and melodeclamation/spoken word, or otherwise bizarre vocals? That wasn't even novel in the 90s. (Scratch Acid? Brainbombs? Oxbow? The Birthday Party? Swans? Killdozer? The list goes on)

I will agree it's more interesting and entertaining than something like 72 Seasons, but, in a winter icy road highway pileup sort of way. And because Metallica actually trying to please their fans these days results in some of the most boring, soulless music ever made.

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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 6:25 pm 
 

I have never listened to 72 Seasons and probably never will.

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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:30 pm 
 

So you take a risk or go outside the box and make a mess and we reward the courage?

Ok but not for Lulu..

Just my opinion..

Take a risk is Necroticism or And Justice for All in my mind(just to make some two elementary examples,don’t want mentioning White Album,The Piper…)
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Bronze Age
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:55 pm
Posts: 478
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:38 pm 
 

SanPeron wrote:
I have never listened to 72 Seasons and probably never will.


I haven't even listened to the black album.

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rarezuzuh
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:49 pm 
 

I've never listened to any metallica album

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:01 pm 
 

Lee Harrison wrote:
So you take a risk or go outside the box and make a mess and we reward the courage?


Why not? I'm not saying reward the outcome no matter how bad it is, but it's always commendable when an artist experiments. I think something safe and boring deserves more of the scorn that failed experiments get.

Just to be clear, I do like Hardwired, and if I had to choose between the two, I'd pick Hardwired. Great ambitions don't always lead to great music, but I believe they should always be acknowledged.

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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:38 pm 
 

rarezuzuh wrote:
I've never listened to any metallica album


In this day and age, you aren't missing much, to be honest.

A couple of good 80s ballads maybe.

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Lee Harrison
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
Posts: 1189
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:36 am 
 

rarezuzuh wrote:
I've never listened to any metallica album

You miss some of best thrash metal my friend

Trapped under ice!!!!!
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Kalaratri
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
Posts: 2778
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:35 am 
 

80s Metallica is definitely worth listening to if you haven't heard anything by them before. The production issues on AJFA aside, the first four records contain some of the best thrash metal ever written.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 34575
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:36 am 
 

KeeperOfTheMissingLink wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
I prefer ten same albums like omonimo than pretentious and shitty experimental rock album if the result is Lulu…


I say it depends on what band we're talking about. For Metallica, I'd prefer them making Lulu than them making half-hearted thrash like Death Magnetic, or wallpaper like The Black Album. Now, if we're talking about a band like Motörhead or Axel Rudi Pell, then yes, I'd prefer their standard formula over them collaborating with a person associated with Andy Warhol (although Another Perfect Day is a great album, and some consider that the experimental Motörhead album). Ultimately, the quality of the art matters more than the ambition behind it. If somebody takes a huge risk and makes something bad, I'm not going to give it pity listens when I can enjoy myself by listening to a tried-and-true album that's good. However, if someone makes a tried-and-true album poorly, then that ambitious failure is definitely going to look a lot better by comparison.


Another Perfect Day being considered experimental really just shows you how closed-minded the general consensus was for so long. That is maybe their best album though... though I go between that one, Overkill and a few of their 90s works...
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kmidst
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:51 pm
Posts: 4
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:40 am 
 

Alright I have one.
I don't care about metal/rock coming from the blues. I don't like the blues or similar genres. Also hip-hop has no place on/in/near/around my metal. That is absolute oil and water and my ears don't want it.

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:28 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Another Perfect Day being considered experimental really just shows you how closed-minded the general consensus was for so long. That is maybe their best album though... though I go between that one, Overkill and a few of their 90s works...


I think it's also because it's Motörhead making it. They were known for sticking to a single sound for almost their entire career, so Another Perfect Day being slightly different than Ace of Spades or Orgasmatron seems really out-there by comparison. If Rush made an album like Another Perfect Day, it probably wouldn't be seen as that experimental since Rush changed their sound very frequently.

I do agree that Another Perfect Day is one of Motörhead's best albums though.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 34575
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:49 pm 
 

I don't know, Rush evolved pretty naturally. APD still sounds like a Motorhead album - it's just that bands were way more expected just never even to tweak anything back then apparently.
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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:00 pm 
 

Motörhead is such an amazing band, I had the luck of seeing them twice. Another Perfect Day is a classic.

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democracyiscringe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:09 pm 
 

Well, it sounds like Motorhead's rhythm section with some hyper melodic Thin Lizzy twiddling over the top of it. It's a good album, partially because of its "weirdness"--solos that drag on for like 2 minutes, all those jazzy shimmering arpeggiated chords we'd never hear in Motorhead again after this record--and I think it deserves most of of the "hidden gem" revision it's getting these days, despite a couple fillerish tracks. But at the same time, it doesn't feel like the product of a lineup who had a lot of chemistry and I can imagine being into Motorhead in the 80s and feeling "betrayed" or whatever.

That's just putting myself in someone else's shoes though. Eddie Clarke was a pretty repetitive, limited guitarist for being their main axe man for 5~ albums, so finally mixing things up on APD makes sense.


Last edited by democracyiscringe on Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 34575
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:16 pm 
 

Lemmy was just an unparalleled songwriter. You can tell he learned stuff from Hendrix - listening to the first Hendrix album and I get the same feeling I do from Motörhead's songwriting, just this really clean, efficient style where every minute is useful and sharp as fuck. Just knows how to do it. I can put on a good chunk of Motorhead albums pretty much any time.

With those 90s albums - 1916, Bastards, Sacrifice - those had to be some of his best stuff ever, too.
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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:34 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I don't know, Rush evolved pretty naturally. APD still sounds like a Motorhead album


I was just using Rush because they did change their sound, even if they did it gradually. If you were to play Motörhead's debut and their album Rock n Roll back to back, even though those albums are ten years apart from each other, they both still sound like they're the same band. If you were to play Rush's debut and Grace Under Pressure back to back, you'd probably be able to fool people into thinking they're by two completely different bands.

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Ivan Drago
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:10 pm
Posts: 229
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:32 pm 
 

Only album I've got is Bomber and it never really grabbed me, and it's supposedly one of their best, or at least held in high regard. I figured if I wasn't a fan of that there wasn't much point in checking out more, I really should at some point though

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Disembodied
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 am
Posts: 234
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:08 pm 
 

I stopped at Ace of Spades. The song. I always saw it as a bikie anthem and profoundly despised the lyrics so hearing that all their songs are the same I figured Motorhead wasn't for me.

Love Hawkwind though and find it hard to grok how Lemmy could be in such totally different sounding bands back to back.

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democracyiscringe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:10 pm 
 

Ivan Drago wrote:
Only album I've got is Bomber and it never really grabbed me, and it's supposedly one of their best, or at least held in high regard. I figured if I wasn't a fan of that there wasn't much point in checking out more, I really should at some point though


Bomber is like the 'Killers' of Motorhead; it's kinda typical classic Motorhead, but it's also kinda not. If that makes sense.
There's relatively more slinky midplaced bluesy stuff on that album than most of their stuff from that era, and it's got a rather 70s production that smolders rather than explodes. It has a different appeal than Ace of Spades or whatever despite sharing the same basic elements.

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 2818
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:41 pm 
 

democracyiscringe wrote:
Ivan Drago wrote:
Only album I've got is Bomber and it never really grabbed me, and it's supposedly one of their best, or at least held in high regard. I figured if I wasn't a fan of that there wasn't much point in checking out more, I really should at some point though


Bomber is like the 'Killers' of Motorhead; it's kinda typical classic Motorhead, but it's also kinda not. If that makes sense.
There's relatively more slinky midplaced bluesy stuff on that album than most of their stuff from that era, and it's got a rather 70s production that smolders rather than explodes. It has a different appeal than Ace of Spades or whatever despite sharing the same basic elements.


Spot on. And their early/mid 90s through mid 00s output is among their heaviest.
"Bastards", "Sacrifice", and "Inferno" are more metal than rock, IMO.

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wone21r
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:26 am
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:26 pm 
 

I enjoy pretty much all Motorhead, but my favourite has always been the self titled debut.

Was also lucky enough to see them live in 2009, and it was one of the best shows I've seen.

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:03 am 
 

The only albums where Motörhead missed the mark for me are March or Die and Snake Bite Love, but other than that, I enjoy all their albums with my favorite being Overkill. I thankfully was able to see them live on one of those Gigantours back in 2012.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4038
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 10:15 am 
 

I love all eras of Motorhead and APD is a great album with its own vibe. Some days Inferno is my favorite, some days its Ace. A band with two classic lineups.

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BastardHead
Worse than Stalin

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 10823
Location: Oswego, Illinois
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 1:19 pm 
 

KeeperOfTheMissingLink wrote:
The only albums where Motörhead missed the mark for me are March or Die and Snake Bite Love, but other than that, I enjoy all their albums with my favorite being Overkill.


This is pretty much my own opinion exactly, with the only alterations being that I do think their last handful of albums are fully skippable (they're still solid but age was really catching up to em, I'd put Motorizer as the last excellent one) and that over the years I've come to accept Bastards as my favorite. But really they were always great. It's not that every Motorhead album sounded "the same", it's that every Motorhead sounded like "a Motorhead album", and that's a delicate line that they toed brilliantly for like four straight decades.
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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 816
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:55 pm 
 

Bomber is for those who like their MH sleazy, mid-tempo, quasi psychedelic, and...did I say SLEAZY? There are songs like it littered elsewhere, but no other MH album sounds like it, not even Overkill, which was recorded in the same year. It's my favorite MH album. I've never LOVED MH, other than that album, but I like them a lot. It's a sound that I only want to hear when I play MH though. 99.5% of the time, I can't stand when a band wears their MH love out on their sleeve. I don't find it interesting outside of MH. Like motocrust? Crust is one of my primary musical nutrients, but I don't want to hear MH, even slightly, in my crust. I'm more fascinated by the obsessive MH fan types than I am MH itself. No slight. I think it is very cool. I can also really appreciate how much the latter albums are praised. I'm not going to listen to them (only so much time in a day), but I enjoy when fans talk about them.

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democracyiscringe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:11 pm 
 

"Bomber is for those who like their MH sleazy, mind-tempo, ..."
Then again, so is Overkill, putting aside the title track. ha. Over half the album is either bluesy stuff, psychedelic dirge or funtime boogie stuff. Not necessarily a bad thing (although, I do think Capricorn is weak), but it's not quite the rampaging proto-speed metal album it's sometimes remembered as.

I always found later Motorhead weak. That nugget of 70s british punk they once had in their sound totally disappeared by the 90s, and all their attempts at rocking out started feeling very showbiz, like something you'd hear in the stripclub shootout scene of an action movie. So many hamfisted and flat-out cheesy moments, particularly in their social issue PSA (anti-sexual abuse, anti-organized religion, etc) songs--"Don't Let Daddy Kiss Me"? Those weeping "emotional" strings at the climax of "Keys to the Kingdom"? Gimme a break. Not hating on anyone who likes their post-80s stuff but I get the feeling it gets a bit of a pass because Lemmy's such an iconic figure.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 34575
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:17 pm 
 

I love Overkill specifically for being a bluesy rock album. Immaculate work and every track is perfect to me... "Capricorn" is maybe the best one for me. That kind of stuff is exactly what I go to it for, that soulful feeling mixed in with the abrasiveness.

Their 90s stuff is some of their best work ever too - the ones I mentioned - 1916, Bastards and Sacrifice - would all be in my top 5 probably. Inferno is also almost flawless - massive tone and hungry, energetic feel to all those tunes. Don't know if I'd say there's much of a qualitative difference in the eras of his career since the band always had that great songwriting no matter what - though in between the firecracker albums there were always just rimshot ones like Rock n Roll and such, and a few weak ones like March or Die. 2013's Aftershock is still a pretty top notch album for me, some great tunes on there even though the final few lapse in quality a bit.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4038
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:45 am 
 

democracyiscringe wrote:
"Bomber is for those who like their MH sleazy, mind-tempo, ..."
Then again, so is Overkill, putting aside the title track. ha. Over half the album is either bluesy stuff, psychedelic dirge or funtime boogie stuff. Not necessarily a bad thing (although, I do think Capricorn is weak), but it's not quite the rampaging proto-speed metal album it's sometimes remembered as.

I always found later Motorhead weak. That nugget of 70s british punk they once had in their sound totally disappeared by the 90s, and all their attempts at rocking out started feeling very showbiz, like something you'd hear in the stripclub shootout scene of an action movie. So many hamfisted and flat-out cheesy moments, particularly in their social issue PSA (anti-sexual abuse, anti-organized religion, etc) songs--"Don't Let Daddy Kiss Me"? Those weeping "emotional" strings at the climax of "Keys to the Kingdom"? Gimme a break. Not hating on anyone who likes their post-80s stuff but I get the feeling it gets a bit of a pass because Lemmy's such an iconic figure.


I listen to albums like 1916, Sacrifice, and Inferno for the speed, ripping metal riffs, and Lemmy attitude. I gave later Motorhead "a pass" because it kicks ass. Cuts like Burner, Sacrifice, Thousand Names of God, Killers, The Terminal Show, In The Name of Tragedy, etc stand up with anything they did with the Mk 1 lineup.

I agree that Don't Let Daddy Kiss Me just comes across as awkward and strange, but No Voices in The Sky is a ripping cut even if I don't agree with the message. The music is great.

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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 567
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:13 pm 
 

Thanks to this thread I relistened to Overkill and Bomber and I have to say the difference between the two is really big. Overkill is a classic, is a 9/10 or a 10/10 album, all the songs are heavy metal and hard rock classics, I don't have any new thing to say about this masterpiece of a metal/rocknroll album.

But Bomber, is not as a good as I remembered, is a pretty mid album, a solid 7/10 or 6/10 if you are in bad day. Is weird because is the classic formation of Motorhead, but is not as inspired as Overkill or Ace of Spades. Overall the first average Motorhead album.

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ZenoMarx
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:38 am
Posts: 816
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:14 pm 
 

another "Capricorn" fan here

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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 2818
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:17 pm 
 

ZenoMarx wrote:
another "Capricorn" fan here


Me, three.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 34575
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:31 pm 
 

"Don't Let Daddy Kiss Me" has some really good music and it serves to be another odd quirky experiment for the Bastards album which had several of them. Lyrically it does come off pretty hamfisted. I'm not really sure what the impulse was - I think he wanted a lady singer to sing it but couldn't lock that down? But I don't remember if there was some reasoning behind wanting to do that topic specifically.
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