I draw the line at blatantly racist lyrics and themes- I don't like that nazi crap AT ALL.

But with that said, I will occasionally listen to bands whose members may have sketchy or sometimes highly toxic views, or who are in general just scummy people- but whose lyrics don't actually reflect that. Burzum being a key example. Dave Mustaine has also gone full blown Donald Trump/Make America (not-so) Great Again but I will still listen to Megadeth. Although even still I might make it a case-by-case basis; I will never support Iced Earth for example.

As for bands where one member may have made a not-so-cool illiberal racist homophobic, or whatever, comment once upon a time, long long ago; I don't really care about that; and there's no reason to. Everyone has said dumb stuff at one time or another that they regret. Even I would cringe at some of the stuff that I know came out of my mouth when I was a kid. And no, Slayer is not, and never was, a racist band. Megadeth (or at least, Dave) is clearly far more right wing than they ever were.

Sure,man.And about Slayer,i didn't charge them racist.It's because some people (maybe not metalheads.I don't have sure) already charge them to be neo-nazi because of Angel of Death lyrics (But it's about the nazi scientist.It doesn't support him),the S from their logo (which ressembles a specific mega-important squad symbol from Hitler that i forgot the name) and accusations that neo-nazis support them.The Eagle symbol leads some problem too,but i know they aren't.They were inspired by bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate about their lyrics,but i already saw Tom states that Jefferson Airplane inspired him.My problem are:Issues about Pantera (I really like them,but Phil already said a lot of shit white power phrases),Hatebreed (The singer already confirmed he was homophobe) and Burzum (Varg views) and the question if there is some key bands who unfortunately supports this kind of views because there is a lot at black metal and the first pagan metal experience i had it was from Nokturnal Mortum (I just listened one song,but gave up.It looked like more epic black,but i didn't like so much the cover.It happened when i was discovering extreme metal).I just want to avoid as possible as i can that bands (Thinking to go forward with some viking and folk.Is pagan a aesthetic genre like first black metal wave?).

I follow something similar to the discogs policy, but applied to my listening choices:



Replace the "Discogs policy is to block any releases from our marketplace" bit with "I don't listen to music/bands/releases" and I'd say that's pretty accurate, and honestly not too hard to follow or stick to.

For things that fall outside of that definition, it's case by case.

The word ''Burzum'' comes from LotR, as part of the inscription of the ''One Ring''.

''Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.''

Supposedly to be the word for ''Darkness'' in the translation.

''One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.''

Thanx for taking the time

I don't take a moral stand in regards to music that I like. I don't really stop listening to music if the artist is someone who has committed crimes. I sure do not stop listening to music because the artists is ideologically different to me. It is not that important for me and it would mean that there would be very little music I could still listen to in the genres that I love. I also dislike the whole detective thing which some engage in. Finding some old tweets or digging up some old interview where someone said something that could be regarded as not politically correct by todays standards. Honestly, extreme metal as a genre sort of thrives on controversy in many different ways.

What I don't like are the bands where the imagery, lyrics or interviews are overt in any one direction. I rarely listen to overtly political music where the cover features the hammer and sickle and the lyrics deal with the dictatorship of the proletariat or NS imagery with lyrics about the Jewish world conspiracy, or Christian music with lyrics about the goodness of Christ etc. I just don't enjoy that kind of stuff... generally, there are probably a few exceptions (though I struggle to remember any at the moment).



Do you do this in regards to anti-christian lyrics as well a.l.a. "christians to the lions" type stuff?

Deicide too?I mean,they only talk about satanic and anti-christianity stuff.

Discogs probably shouldn't allow Scream Bloody Gore in the marketplace either. The text on release itself states "I celebrate a faggot's death" if that does not incite violent hatred against a group of people based on area such as sexual identity...

Couldn't care less. If the music's good, I'll listen. If it's not, I won't.

No

That's how I try to be as well. Namely when it comes to environmentalism. I work in environmental education, and whenever I have to teach kids about actions to reduce their carbon emissions, I insist that the point it not to shame them on whatever they or their family is doing, but rather to give them more tools, more options, and the knowledge necessary to see where and how they could reduce their emissions, and to focus on the good things they did do, rather then the things they could have done.

When it comes to music and shady political affiliations, I tend to be a little less tolerant, even moreso when people make excuses or try to minimize the harm caused by ideologies such as white supremacism, neonazism, etc.

When I grew up and discovered metal and rock I didn't know many neo bands. There were Skrewdriver and such but they just were godawful. So it was never an issue as neos never seemed to be able to write good music. But growing older and neos being more all over everywhere in metal and rock this century than when I was young, I do admit I get allergic to people behind the music more quickly and pay more attention to them. I even cannot stand overly patritioc music and flag-waving, for that reason I listen to less and less bands from specific countries where that seems to be 'normal behaviour'. So you can imagine when neos promote their idealogy in lyrics (and artwork), I tend to just get annoyed and stop listening.

But then there's Burzum. And no matter what I think about the guy, I still play the 1992-1996 era stuff. Why? Because I like the music and can't understand a thing he's singing anyway.
In a way to me it feels like; should I stop watching Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs, Master and Commander etc etc etc because Harvey Weinstein was involved (in whatever capacity)?

+1

1. Is the message somehow central to the work of art, e.g. compare Harvey Weinstein's involvement in Pulp Fiction to, say, Russel Brand's comedy. I know Richard Wagner was a shit, but I'll listen to his music because it draws from a completely different place than the insane idiocy of his personal life. Can't say the same about Grand Belial's Key.

2. Do the artist's nazi connections normalise nazism in the music scene where they are involved? Most metal bands with nazi connections that we know of are guilty of this.

I'm definitely in the camp of "if the music's good, I don't care, but I won't financially support a nazi"

I thoroughly enjoy bands like Peste Noire, while keeping it in mind that I think Famine is a dickhead. My favorite band right now is probably Horna, and I just don't care about their controversy, and I don't wish to pay attention to it. It's not important to their music for me, and I don't listen to them for an ideological purpose.

I do however have an issue when people express similar remarks, but act reactionary toward politically-opposite bands they disagree with. I like plenty of things that could be described as NSBM as well as RABM. I dislike things on both sides of that too if the music is bad.

I also think it's fine if people feel otherwise and want to avoid anyone who goes against their values. I also think everyone has their limits. As a kid, for example, I was a fan of the band Lostprophets. I don't even want to describe what their vocalist did, but you can wiki it if you're curious. I cannot listen to his voice anymore without feeling disgust. So I don't think it's an all-or-nothing kind of thing, and it's fine for everyone to have their own filter.

Most political bands suck to be honest, because they focus too much on sending their message and not so much on the quality of the music. The only good white supremacist bands that I've heard are GBK and Arghoslent. I used to like Peste Noire, but they are too French for my taste, nothing wrong with my French friends, but I think is something made for them, not for people around the world. With the Gelal bands, I have to admit that motherfucker knows how to write good metal riffs and since I really don't understand what he is singing in the songs, I just listened to them as normal death and black metal bands.

But yeah, don't support racist bands, it's dumb to hate people for their skin color, doesn't make any sense to me.

I love absurd and napalm death....

I liked Napalm Death.But i didn't listen Absurd.

This. I generally tend to overlook the opinions of musicians whose views I disagree with. I tend to "live and let live" and am not into this genre for its lyrics.

However, while I will still listen to the hardcopies of Iced Earth CDs I already own, I will never again buy any of their output, or even stream their music. Schaffer will never generate a penny from me again. I will not subsidize any traitorous plots his small mind might be devising.

Ok

Here's a quote from Geezer Butler's autobiography:

"The whole image and reputation of heavy metal is based on a misunderstanding. And it wasn't just the music press and the public who got it all mixed up, it was a lot of the heavy metal bands that came after us. They were all banding on about the devil and 666, which is how the world ended up with death metal, black metal, doom metal and all these other dark sub-genres. I suppose that sort of stuff appeals to some people, but that wasn't who we were."

I firmly believe the entire genesis of nazism in metal is based entirely off of a misunderstanding of Slayer's "Angel of Death." There's no other reason. No other metal band before that point had any inkling of racism or bigotry in their presentation and lyrics. To their credit, Kerry and Jeff were consistent in saying the song wasn't pro-nazi:

"I know why people misinterpret it – it's because they get this knee-jerk reaction to it. When they read the lyrics, there's nothing I put in the lyrics that says necessarily he was a bad man, because to me – well, isn't that obvious? I shouldn't have to tell you that."

I agree that they shouldn't have to tell you that, but most people are stupid. People are dumb, hateful, morons who will take anything at face value to justify their own negative emotions. Not to mention Slayer appropriated a LOT of nazi culture into their presentation. The wehrmacht fan club name, the eagle, the SS officer stickers on Jeff's guitar they did lean into it a lot; yes it was done for the sake of shock rock, but to use the turn of phrase, not all Slayer fans are nazis, but most nazis probably are Slayer fans. I know people don't want to hear this, but THAT is the reason they have the second highest power ranking of the big four. Why they were able to maintain their position in the market despite being objectively less heavy than every extreme band that came after them.

There's also the ass backwards notion that "metal is supposed to be 'evil,' well what's more evil than being a racist and a nazi?" But these morons don't think they're evil. They believe in 1488 and securing a white nation and all that ridiculous horseshit.

Now, I am a fan of the 2nd wave black metal bands that have spouted this kind of crap at one point or another, but I also take it with a grain of salt. Especially Varg, who even some of his own fans have said fairly recently have said that man has contradicted himself so much you don't know what to believe anymore.

But that was then, this is now. If Lovebites or Sumerlands or any of the modern power or trad bands turned 1488 on me, I'd hold a mental funeral for that band because they'd be dead to me, nazi metal fuck off.

Pretty much where I stand as well. I don't overly care if the musicians I listen to share the same ideologies and political beliefs as I do, as a lot of my friends don't even share some of the same opinions, but if you're spouting nazi or fascist shit in your music I'm not listening

Fuck em and avoid em. Alot of those bands tend to suck anyways, not missing out, too much good music out there as is.

Sorry If I've misunderstood, but is this to suggest that NS content/references is the source of Slayer's popularity?
The last line of this quote doesn't make any sense to me, of course a big-4 thrash band was more popular than the extreme bands that followed, because thrash (and Slayer specifically) sat right on the boundary of what your average listener was able to tolerate. The thing that made Slayer "special" was that to many people, they were as extreme as a band could be. The extreme bands that followed were TOO extreme, that's the point.

If you're suggesting that the reason Slayer had a bigger fanbase than (for example) Suffocation was because of NS imagery, that to me feels like a massive misread of how people work and think.

Please correct me if I've misread or something, the overall gist of your post I think is pretty reasonable and agreeable.

Yeah, I read that the same way you did, and yeah, it doesn't make sense. Suggesting that Slayer got big because of Nazi imagery is extremely reductive and lacks perspective for sure.

If the Nazi shit appears in the music or imagery itself, so if it is straight up NSBM, I will never support it. I won't earnestly recommend it to anyone, I certainly won't give any money for it in any way. If it's something of some notability for one reason or another (Nokturnal Mortum's NeChrist for example), I might give it a cursory listen with that in mind. If it can be ignored I will always ignore it. The presence of shit like that most likely will affect how I judge it; I'm generally for separating the artist from the art, but if the artist's characteristics I'm trying to separate from the art are reflected in it, then that just goes out of the window.

If the Nazi shit is restricted to the artist's beliefs or actions, I still won't support it monetarily in any sense. As far as recommending it goes, if it's historically notable (Burzum's classic output, for example), then I'll point that out in relevant discussions whilst warning that the person that made it sucks, and if that isn't the case then I just won't mention it. If it's something I like I will probably listen to it in private, because I generally can separate the artist from the art in instances like that, though I do find shit like that can make me want to listen to something less depending on the case.

This doesn't just apply to Nazi shit, this is how I feel generally about art made by awful people. Also, honestly, there's enough great stuff made by people that aren't absolute trash and enough stuff out there that *isn't* bigoted/fascist propaganda, that I don't even care to dwell on art in this category too much, certainly if it can be ignored easily.

I think it depends on a couple things in my case. For instance, I found Burzum on YouTube when I was 12 years old (17 years ago) and black metal instantly became my new favorite genre. When I was 12 years old in 2006, I didn't think about politics one bit and the political landscape was completely different than it is now to boot, and all I knew was that Varg killed a guy and burned some churches. So it is safe to say that there is literally nothing that will get me to stop listening to that music because I already love it and have loved it for more than half of my life, and listening to music is between me and the music. Same story with Deathspell Omega (still don't care about all the hate Mikko gets) when I discovered Paracletus when I was 16. Within 30 seconds of the opening track they became my favorite band, not to mention there is literally 0% of anything "bigotted/hateful/racist" about DsO's music and they are unparallelled in their scene. This seems to be the case with any music I listen to that some internet leftist weirdo would shit his panties over. I really don't care about the members of any band in particular or the opinions they hold, if you make music that I enjoy I will probably listen to it. That being said, if I'm going to check out a new-to-me band with blatantly cringe over-the-top ideology/artwork that seems to be more important than their music, there's about a 0% chance that I'm going to give it any time because I'm not a nazi and I don't identify with that and there's definitely cooler stuff out there that I'm actually interested in.

I listen to a lot of stuff with lyrics about literally murdering, raping, and committing brutal atrocities against your fellow man and not once has it ever inspired me to do anything of that nature. Another point that I think is completely braindead, is that I can deck out my battle vest in patches that scream shit like "CHRIST RAPING BLACK METAL 666 IMPALE THE LORD AND DRINK THE BLOOD OF INNOCENT CHILDREN OF CHRIST" and write entire catalogues of music about genociding christians, which for all intents and purposes is just edgy nerds LARPing and getting butthurt, but the moment you switch the target of your fictional words to another religion like jewish people, YOU WILL PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD! Get over it, metal would be better without hall monitors.

Yeah, that's basically my approach as well

I didn't say they are famous because of that.I said that the band was accused to have this kind of fans.But Slayer it's one of my favorite extreme metal bands and i don't think they support them.]

I started to listen Suffocation because they were mentioned here.Are they involved at some polemic like that?

Agree.

AFAIK, there is no problem with Suffocation. Just nice chaps making good death metal.

I refuse to listen to any Nazi bands, and tend to steer clear of bands whose members are shitbags or have bad political and social views in general. I will also point out their problematic views at every possible opportunity when they come up. If you feel uncomfortable being called out for enjoying music made by bad people, then that's good, you should feel that way.

Frankly I have no patience for those who say they can separate the art from the artist, or the music from the lyrics. Let's be real - the only reason most people are able to do this is because they're white cishet guys who never have to confront how their identity intersects with their enjoyment of media. It shows an astonishing lack of awareness or interest in using their privilege to stand up for others.

If this is you, then you should think long and hard about what this says about you. If you come out the other end still not feeling like there's a problem, then congratulations, you're a bad person and the metal community would be better without you.

This is an astoundingly ignorant take. The difference is that one is the predominant religion and worldview in the Western world, while the other is a religious and cultural group that has been persecuted for thousands of years, has experienced genocide on a massive scale within the last century, and remains the subject of hate crimes, conspiracy theories, violence and discrimination. It is absolutely not the same.

I don't know if you're Jewish, and to be clear I'm not, so I don't speak for that group. But I would find it hard to believe you'd be okay with antisemitism in your music if you were. Not having to seriously confront any of this is exactly the sort of privilege I was referring to in my previous post.

Interesting that you seem to have zero lack of tolerance and 'patience' for these types of sentiments and I'm willing to bet that you demand acceptance and tolerance for yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also interesting you choose not to include/address the first part of the other member you're quoting where they explained the reasons why they like what they like. It kinda seems like cherry picking. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm open to discussion.

I was kind of prepared for a response like this, and I think you're missing the point. I don't care if one group is bigger than another or one is "more oppressed" than another, if it's okay to take the piss out of one it's okay to take the piss out of it all, I only used two obvious groupings of people in my post. If you're going to get upset about singing bad thing about Group A, why not get upset about when people sing bad about Groups B-Z? What if I wrote a song that is about beheading everyone that listens to Pearl Jam? Pearl Jam fans might be upset, but some of them might think it's funny, I can only assume that most of them would not give a shred of a fuck. I'll start a frigidly necro-cvlt black metal solo project using only a Yamaha keyboard and the first concept album will be about blocking every single Theravada-practicing Buddhist on Facebook and downvoting their comments on Reddit, and then slitting all of their throats in a pile. Would that make you upset? Why or why not? Does it even matter? By the way, there are plenty of hate crimes, conspiracy theories, violence, discrimination, and general hatred against literally every sort of person on earth, happening all over the world. Call me whatever you want, I don't care about antisemitism in music because I don't listen to antisemitic music and I don't think it's generally something that is going to lead anyone to those viewpoints, let alone inspire them to commit acts of violence against anyone. It's not a privilege to listen to music the way I want, or not listen to whatever I want, it's called finding what I like and dislike at my leisure and completely disregarding the opinions of others when it comes to what sounds my brain enjoys.

I think all religions should be able to be equally critiqued / abused in metal lyrics, however lets be honest, the majority of the type of people in the western world who criticize Islam or Judaism do so as a front to attack the followers of said religion rather than the religion itself. I am aware lots of metal attacks the followers of Christianity as well but I don't think it comes from the same place as those people I mentioned. That being said I dont listen to any metal that openly attacks Judaism or Islam so I cant say for certain nor can I comment on people who feel this is OK



I dont exactly agree with this, hip-hop as a genre that has some quite frankly abhorrent lyrics and views towards homosexual people and women and they were / are still very popular. Kanye West still has legions of fans who separate the art from the artists. Da Baby has made commends about gay people and women recently as well and he still has huge legions of female fans. This isnt just a metal thing, nor just a straight white person thing

I mean, I love Tarantino films and I know that Harvey Weinstein was a key figure in making those films. Same as Chinatown by Roman Polanski or Annie Hall by Woody Allen, those three guys are confirmed sex offenders and very shady figures in the Hollywood industry.

That makes me not enjoy those movies? Not at all, most of those films are masterpieces of cinema, just watch The Pianist or Manhattan, absolute classics of American filmmaking. I have the same opinion on music, who can deny that Filosofem is one of the most important black metal albums of all time, Does that mean that I agree with everything that Varg says and thinks? Not at all, I think Varg is a crazy fellow, but that does not mean that he is also an amazing black metal musician, or at least he was one.

At the end of the day it's hard to really suss out every single instance of horrible beliefs or behavior, particularly with living artists who are still changing over time and could be asked some question to give an out of touch answer to any day. Life's short and I guess it's pointless to cut off whole bands or discographies retroactively just on principle. But if you want to then more power to you. There's definitely some I don't touch too. Not for grandiose moral reasons really, but simply because it's just hard to take stuff seriously after certain points and I'd rather focus on better things.

Outright Nazi shit is obviously easy to completely dismiss though, which is really the line in the sand for all these threads.

At the end of the day there's a lot of music out there though. And ultimately listening to music is not really the same thing as activism. I always liked standing up for the social causes and still do, but there's much more important things than every single problematic musician or artist out there being erased from the culture.



This is pretty much a barometer for me too for anything problematic now.