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MARSDUDE
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:37 pm 
 

I think we can all agree that Frank Bello from Anthrax is a phenomenal bassplayer, and his ability to make himself present amidst Scott's crushing rhythm guitar and Charlie's drumming onslaught is worth applauding. Plus he can do all kinds of nifty techniques.
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Twin_guitar_attack
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:27 am
Posts: 1649
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:39 pm 
 

Benedict Donald wrote:
magate wrote:
Geezer Butler's bass playing style is (nearly) as important to the Sabbs' sound as Iommi's riffs. On the other hand, Bill Ward, as distinctive as his drumming was, was much easier to replace.


I'd say Ward's unique drumming is one of the main reasons why no one can effectively cover 70s Sabbath. Covers of their classics always sound stale & stiff. Soulless. Bill was a vital to that sound as were the other members, IMO.


Yeah, had people IRL be dismissive of my favourite drummer being Bill Ward but man that sound on the early albums and live performances I've seen is unmatched in that style. There's a thousand stoner bands that wanna be like Sabbath, but forget there was more to them than just than the riffs, can't really think of many where the drummer actually stands out to any great degree.
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Erisgaroth
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:18 am
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Location: Chihuahua, Mexico
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:52 pm 
 

Some years ago I used to think that Vinny Appice was just an average drummer, but damn... what a fool I was! This guy is as precise as a clock, or better yet, as a robot. I even like his style better than Ward's. No direspect though. Both are absolute monsters at the drums.

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Bronze Age
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:55 pm
Posts: 638
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:30 pm 
 

Erisgaroth wrote:
Some years ago I used to think that Vinny Appice was just an average drummer, but damn... what a fool I was! This guy is as precise as a clock, or better yet, as a robot. I even like his style better than Ward's. No direspect though. Both are absolute monsters at the drums.


He sounds phenomenal on Live Evil.

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GoatOfDarkDesire
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2023 10:25 pm
Posts: 1
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:31 am 
 

Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.

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Cosmic_Equilibrium
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm
Posts: 837
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:45 pm 
 

Twin_guitar_attack wrote:

Yeah, had people IRL be dismissive of my favourite drummer being Bill Ward but man that sound on the early albums and live performances I've seen is unmatched in that style. There's a thousand stoner bands that wanna be like Sabbath, but forget there was more to them than just than the riffs, can't really think of many where the drummer actually stands out to any great degree.


This. I made a point in a thread about drummers some time ago that no one was mentioning how crucial Ward was to Sabbath's sound. All of the original line up had a uniqueness to their styles - especially when playing together - that can't be replicated.

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Waltz_of_Ghouls
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:03 pm 
 

Geezer Butler and Bill Ward together = the ultimate rhythm section.
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Lee Harrison
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:22 pm 
 

Waltz_of_Ghouls wrote:
Geezer Butler and Bill Ward together = the ultimate rhythm section.

It’s non an unpopular opinion but the fucking Truth…
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Kalaratri
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:41 am 
 

Yeah, I don't think that's an unpopular opinion at all. It's clear that the Butler-Ward duo are one of the things that made Sabbath unique from the beginning, and I think Bill Ward's jazz-influenced style of drumming is definitely something a lot of Sabbath worship bands don't necessarily pick up on.

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Runko
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:38 pm
Posts: 658
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:40 pm 
 

John Tardy sounds like the Tasmanian Devil and I hate it.

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 138
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:51 pm 
 

GoatOfDarkDesire wrote:
Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.


You're not alone. I feel like on this website, it's 50-50 for those who only like Death's first three albums, and those who like all their albums.

What do you feel like is a better example of 90's death metal than Death's stuff?

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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
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Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:53 pm 
 

Progressive death metal is usually pretty boring, but all Death albums are classics, even the softer ones.
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Lord Rodak
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Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:43 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:16 pm 
 

Ronnie James Dio ... meh.

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SanPeron
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Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:29 pm 
 

Lord Rodak wrote:
Ronnie James Dio ... meh.


Dio in his solo career is pretty mid, except for one or two classic albums, but with Black Sabbath and Rainbow, he is a rock/metal legend.
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Waltz_of_Ghouls
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:35 pm 
 

Kalaratri wrote:
Yeah, I don't think that's an unpopular opinion at all. It's clear that the Butler-Ward duo are one of the things that made Sabbath unique from the beginning, and I think Bill Ward's jazz-influenced style of drumming is definitely something a lot of Sabbath worship bands don't necessarily pick up on.


Eh, both you and Lee misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that it was an unpopular opinion, I was merely adding my two cents to the Butler/Ward discussion that was going on.
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Erisgaroth
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:18 am
Posts: 1583
Location: Chihuahua, Mexico
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:04 pm 
 

Lord Rodak wrote:
Ronnie James Dio ... meh.


Well, keeping about drummers topic... Appice in these albums with Dio is frankly superb. The line up of the first 3 albums is the best in Dio's career (the solo stuff, I mean)

Now, an unpopular opinion (I guess) I really like "Never Say Die" (the song, the album is pretty mediocre) of Black Sabbath. I think it works great as a very catchy and commercial Hard Rock song.

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Lee Harrison
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2022 6:28 am
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:05 am 
 

Lord Rodak wrote:
Ronnie James Dio ... meh.

nice technique if you want to make friends….
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lennonlikesmetal
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:25 am
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:56 am 
 

KeeperOfTheMissingLink wrote:
What do you feel like is a better example of 90's death metal than Death's stuff?


Cradle Of Filth

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poormouth100
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:34 pm
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:33 am 
 

Twin_guitar_attack wrote:
Benedict Donald wrote:
magate wrote:
Geezer Butler's bass playing style is (nearly) as important to the Sabbs' sound as Iommi's riffs. On the other hand, Bill Ward, as distinctive as his drumming was, was much easier to replace.


I'd say Ward's unique drumming is one of the main reasons why no one can effectively cover 70s Sabbath. Covers of their classics always sound stale & stiff. Soulless. Bill was a vital to that sound as were the other members, IMO.


Yeah, had people IRL be dismissive of my favourite drummer being Bill Ward but man that sound on the early albums and live performances I've seen is unmatched in that style. There's a thousand stoner bands that wanna be like Sabbath, but forget there was more to them than just than the riffs, can't really think of many where the drummer actually stands out to any great degree.

Who in their right mind would diss Bill Ward? His drumming is an integral part of Sabbath's sound, he brought a groove to the band that 99.9% of stoner/doom bands would kill to have.

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des91
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Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 361
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:13 am 
 

GoatOfDarkDesire wrote:
Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.


Dude have you listened to Human? That album is Death Metal to the core. It’s super fast throughout and full of some chunky OSDM riffs. I never understood people who liked the first three but not Human. It’s more technical but that’s it. Now Individual and later are a different thing, especially Symbolic onward.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 2845
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:22 am 
 

Erisgaroth wrote:

Now, an unpopular opinion (I guess) I really like "Never Say Die" (the song, the album is pretty mediocre) of Black Sabbath. I think it works great as a very catchy and commercial Hard Rock song.


I'm a pretty big fan of Never Say Die the album, but I just don't understand why the title track is pretty much always singled out as the only good song on the album. The album has so many better songs.

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colin040
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:37 am 
 

des91 wrote:
GoatOfDarkDesire wrote:
Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.


Dude have you listened to Human? That album is Death Metal to the core. It’s super fast throughout and full of some chunky OSDM riffs. I never understood people who liked the first three but not Human. It’s more technical but that’s it. Now Individual and later are a different thing, especially Symbolic onward.


I like Human, but no means is it super fast. Come on! :p
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des91
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Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:06 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
des91 wrote:
GoatOfDarkDesire wrote:
Honestly as I'm getting more into Death Metal, I gotta say I'm not a huge fan of post Spiritual Healing Death. Human and every album afterwards just sounds weak as hell compared to anything else happening in DM at the time.


Dude have you listened to Human? That album is Death Metal to the core. It’s super fast throughout and full of some chunky OSDM riffs. I never understood people who liked the first three but not Human. It’s more technical but that’s it. Now Individual and later are a different thing, especially Symbolic onward.


I like Human, but no means is it super fast. Come on! :p


It’s not Altars of Madness but it’s just as fast as the 1st three.

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KeeperOfTheMissingLink
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 am
Posts: 138
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:46 pm 
 

SanPeron wrote:
Dio in his solo career is pretty mid, except for one or two classic albums, but with Black Sabbath and Rainbow, he is a rock/metal legend.


Actually, I think Dio has one of the strongest body of work as a solo artist, and I'm usually pretty resistant to praise a musician's solo work, even if they're from a band I like (e.g. Rush is my favorite band and I've still yet to listen to Geddy's and Alex's solo albums). I think Dio was able to nourish the influences he got from working with Rainbow and Sabbath into something uniquely him, whereas I feel like most solo acts just sound like lesser versions of the band that they originate from.

Speaking of which, I'll use this as an opportunity to express one of my hot takes, but as an example of a solo act I'm talking about, I find Bruce Dickinson's work outside of Iron Maiden to be disappointing overall. Accident of Birth is a decent album, but The Chemical Wedding is probably one of the most overrated albums I've ever heard. It was built up to me as this great album and an antidote to post-80's Iron Maiden from multiple sources since like 2009, but honestly, while I'm not the huggest fan of Maiden's 90's albums, I think The X Factor and Fear of the Dark are better. I just found The Chemical Wedding to be so vanilla and unmemorable that my main thought when it was over was "Thank God Bruce and Adrian returned to Iron Maiden because they need Steve Harris!"

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:16 pm 
 

des91 wrote:
colin040 wrote:
des91 wrote:
Dude have you listened to Human? That album is Death Metal to the core. It’s super fast throughout and full of some chunky OSDM riffs. I never understood people who liked the first three but not Human. It’s more technical but that’s it. Now Individual and later are a different thing, especially Symbolic onward.


I like Human, but no means is it super fast. Come on! :p


It’s not Altars of Madness but it’s just as fast as the 1st three.


Human is not any tamer, any slower then the previous three Death albums indeed. For some reason, Human still seems to have this aura, at least to some, of being less death metal. I don't know if it's because the lyrics aren't about eating dead babies, or because it's more prog/tech/jazzy or whatever, but some death metal purists are very boneheaded and conservative about what they think is good or even "real" death metal. And yeah, Human is just too "gay" and pretentious for some, or whatever. But I think it's nothing less then a masterpiece. I'm not saying that anyone in this current discussions said that. Just pointing out that I'm truly fascinated by this perceived big fracture in death metal, where bands like Atheist and Death supposedly destroyed the genre by making it too intellectual or something. These bands were clearly very death metal at their core still, around the time they released Unqestionable Presence and Human.

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SanPeron
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:19 pm 
 

I have yet to listen to Bruce Dickinson solo work, Iam just not very interested in his solo stuff. Also, I don't really listen to post Fear of the Dark works of Iron Maiden, they have some cool song here and there but there is no comparison, the 80s stuff is so much better than their modern stuff.
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Lee Harrison
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:57 pm 
 

Human is one of best achievement reached by death metal!!!!

Flattening of emotions,Suicide Machine,Lack of Comprehension,Secret Face all masterpieces…

How these songs aren’t fast?
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SanPeron
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:02 pm 
 

All Death albums are awesome, they are one of the few bands that don't have a bad album. My favorite of them is the last one, The Sound of Perseverance.
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Forever Underground
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:35 am
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Location: Galiza
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:27 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Human is not any tamer, any slower then the previous three Death albums indeed. For some reason, Human still seems to have this aura, at least to some, of being less death metal. I don't know if it's because the lyrics aren't about eating dead babies, or because it's more prog/tech/jazzy or whatever, but some death metal purists are very boneheaded and conservative about what they think is good or even "real" death metal. And yeah, Human is just too "gay" and pretentious for some, or whatever. But I think it's nothing less then a masterpiece. I'm not saying that anyone in this current discussions said that. Just pointing out that I'm truly fascinated by this perceived big fracture in death metal, where bands like Atheist and Death supposedly destroyed the genre by making it too intellectual or something. These bands were clearly very death metal at their core still, around the time they released Unqestionable Presence and Human.

I've never seen anyone call Human "Gay" or Unquestionable Presence a "genre destroyer", I'm not saying that no one ever has, but I've always found them to be quite celebrated and beloved albums. Now... I've seen those kinds of comments with Cynic.
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:39 pm 
 

SanPeron wrote:
All Death albums are awesome, they are one of the few bands that don't have a bad album. My favorite of them is the last one, The Sound of Perseverance.


Over time, I've lost a bit of interest in Spiritual Healing, which I find to be less ambitious then Human, but also less iconic and timeless the Leprosy. It's also weaker in the songwriting department compared to both.

The Sound of Perseverance I find to be a bit uneven. It has some bangers, but some much weaker and forgettable cuts. Scavenger of Human Sorrow, Spirit Crusher, Flesh and the Power It Holds, and To Forgive Is to Suffer are all bangers though! And I love the Painkiller cover!

Individual Thought Patterns is another album I find myself visiting less then the two albums it's sandwiched in-between. Human does that whole prog/tech/jazzy death metal thing so well, there is basically no album that can reach that level of quality songwriting and flawless execution. Symbolic is proggier even then ITP, and it was very much a transition album for Death, reducing the death metal elements and focusing more on prog instrumentation. It's far from being my favorite Death record, but it does have a ton of solid riffs and memorable moments, which makes me revisit it more then ITP. However, I know that ITP has amazing cuts, like Overactive Imagination and The Philosopher, so I still try to revisit it from time to time. Again, it's not a bad album by any means, just one I find a bit less interesting then it's predecessor and successor.

Forever Underground wrote:
I've never seen anyone call Human "Gay" or Unquestionable Presence a "genre destroyer", I'm not saying that no one ever has, but I've always found them to be quite celebrated and beloved albums. Now... I've seen those kinds of comments with Cynic.


They are of course, very much celebrated, and they should be, but I've met some purist osdm fans who consider that any form of prog or jazz elements don't belong in death metal, and that having lyrics about space, spirituality, introspection, the cosmos and science-fiction, was "un-death" or something like that. Hell, I even remember a guy on some forum, years ago saying that the only good Death album was Scream Bloody Gore and that everything else was shit.

It's not the most popular opinion, but I've stumbled across this opinion enough to know that it's not just a few people either.

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Waltz_of_Ghouls
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:44 pm 
 

Regarding Death, I used to love Sounds of Perseverance but in recent years I've found myself listening to it less and less. The first 2 albums are classics all right, but for me the sweet spot is Spiritual Healing and Human, with ITP a couple of notches below. Symbolic, for whatever reason, never clicked with me no matter what.
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Lee Harrison
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:35 pm 
 

I don’t agree that Symbolic is more proggier than ITP and isn’t a transitional album it’s the point of arrive of Chuck vision..

narrow, compact, catchy, indeed it seems Human more restrained..

Superb..

We are Enslaved noooooooowwww
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Erisgaroth
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:13 am 
 

DoomMetalAlchemist wrote:
Erisgaroth wrote:

Now, an unpopular opinion (I guess) I really like "Never Say Die" (the song, the album is pretty mediocre) of Black Sabbath. I think it works great as a very catchy and commercial Hard Rock song.


I'm a pretty big fan of Never Say Die the album, but I just don't understand why the title track is pretty much always singled out as the only good song on the album. The album has so many better songs.


For my life, I can't remember any single riff of that album outside of the title track. Maybe I need to hear the album again and again, but my first time was actually very boring, except the title track. "Technical Ecstasy" is a lot better.

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Lee Harrison
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 8:03 am 
 

Never say die and Technical Ecstasy aren’t bad album the only problem come after a bunch of full that have made the history of heavy metal…

It’s normal that they pale in comparison….
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HeavenDuff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:24 pm 
 

Lee Harrison wrote:
I don’t agree that Symbolic is more proggier than ITP and isn’t a transitional album it’s the point of arrive of Chuck vision..

narrow, compact, catchy, indeed it seems Human more restrained..

Superb..

We are Enslaved noooooooowwww


By transitional album, I meant that it showed that Chuck was moving away from death metal into more progressive metal, like we would find later on In The Sound of Perseverance, and on Control Denied's debut. Symbolic has some great moments for sure, but it's not an album I think about when making a list of the best death metal records, as opposed to SBG, Leprosy and Human.

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Lee Harrison
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:40 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Lee Harrison wrote:
I don’t agree that Symbolic is more proggier than ITP and isn’t a transitional album it’s the point of arrive of Chuck vision..

narrow, compact, catchy, indeed it seems Human more restrained..

Superb..

We are Enslaved noooooooowwww


By transitional album, I meant that it showed that Chuck was moving away from death metal into more progressive metal, like we would find later on In The Sound of Perseverance, and on Control Denied's debut. Symbolic has some great moments for sure, but it's not an album I think about when making a list of the best death metal records, as opposed to SBG, Leprosy and Human.

Yeah but The Sound of Perseverance was supposed to come out not under the name Death but Control Denied, for me Symbolic is top three…
Transitional album is Spiritual Healing(a great one)Symbolic have all the elements that make part of Death’sHistory…


1)Leprosy
2Human
3)Symbolic

just to play but as I've said before I love all Chuck's albums…
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Ace_Rimmer
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:06 pm 
 

MARSDUDE wrote:
I think we can all agree that Frank Bello from Anthrax is a phenomenal bassplayer, and his ability to make himself present amidst Scott's crushing rhythm guitar and Charlie's drumming onslaught is worth applauding. Plus he can do all kinds of nifty techniques.



My favorite bass player of the thrash scene I think. Not always being buried helps too.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:55 pm 
 

I can understand not liking The Chemical Wedding but I’m not sure how it qualifies as vanilla. I don’t think I’ve ever come across any other album with that sort of style setup.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:56 pm 
 

I think people hear the simple riffs on The Chemical Wedding and those other albums around it, and think that must mean it needs more... but I've rarely heard straight up metal like that with that level of evocative, atmospheric qualities and feeling and variety of mood. Love em...
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SanPeron
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Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:40 pm 
 

The Chemical Wedding is a good 90s-style heavy metal album, is kind of the same thing that Halford did in Resurrection. Is not vanilla and is heavier than most modern Iron Maiden music.
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