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IllBeBach0213
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:16 pm
Posts: 42
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:16 pm 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I hate this genre, but I was wondering why it’s not considered true metal.

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Ivan Drago
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:10 pm
Posts: 282
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:52 pm 
 

I've always considered nu metal as a subgenre of the overall metal umbrella, but people have their own interpretations of what metal is. If you think it's metal then that's a valid opinion and there'll be plenty of people who agree with you

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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:08 pm 
 

It is a genre that evolved out of heavy metal, just like heavy metal evolved out of rock, and rock evolved (this is going back a ways) out of country and blues music of the early 1950s. And as things evolve, the sounds reaches a point where they have drifted far enough away from what they evolved out of- to no longer fit the definition.

Nu Metal has common roots with metal, but also has common roots with rap, funk and industrial, and has blended these sounds in such a way that, for the most part, it doesn't strictly qualify as metal anymore.

The question is where do you draw the line between what is metal and what no longer qualifies as such, and that question is left to the staff in charge of band submissions. There are a few bands I would argue still have enough traditional metal influences to qualify- but that's not really up to me.

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Slater922
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 pm
Posts: 2322
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:09 pm 
 

It just comes down to personal taste and opinion. As someone who used to care an awful lot about what is or isn't "true" metal, you shouldn't really focus too much on that idea, as everyone has their own interpretation of it like Ivan and Oxenkiller pointed out.
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SanPeron
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
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Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:54 pm 
 

I think it was more of a thing of the old generation of metalheads, the one who grew up in the 80s and saw the peak of metal music as a whole. Then these kids came with their 7-string guitars and drop D tuning, with big bass sounds and hip-hop style drums and they thought "What the fuck is this shit? This doesn't sound like Megadeth". And when this style started to be massive and commercially successful while old styles of metal like thrash or traditional heavy metal were struggling to be relevant, they got mad and said stuff like, "This shit isn't metal, only if you play like Manowar you are metal, if not you are a poser". Most kids obviously didn't give a fuck, but the tradition of the old metalheads bashing the new generation kept going, that's why also genres like metalcore or deathcore are frowned upon by the previous metal generation.

In short, if you do something new and commercially successful in metal you will probably be called false metal by the previous generation, it's a cycle of our community.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:05 am 
 

SanPeron wrote:
I think it was more of a thing of the old generation of metalheads, the one who grew up in the 80s and saw the peak of metal music as a whole. Then these kids came with their 7-string guitars and drop D tuning, with big bass sounds and hip-hop style drums and they thought "What the fuck is this shit? This doesn't sound like Megadeth". And when this style started to be massive and commercially successful while old styles of metal like thrash or traditional heavy metal were struggling to be relevant, they got mad and said stuff like, "This shit isn't metal, only if you play like Manowar you are metal, if not you are a poser". Most kids obviously didn't give a fuck, but the tradition of the old metalheads bashing the new generation kept going, that's why also genres like metalcore or deathcore are frowned upon by the previous metal generation.

In short, if you do something new and commercially successful in metal you will probably be called false metal by the previous generation, it's a cycle of our community.


There is a lot of truth to that.

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HighwayCorsair
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:40 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:07 am 
 

The way I always saw it is that most of the nu-metal stuff is downtuned alt rock with distortion if you actually pay attention to what the guitars are playing, and distortion and downtuning enough isn't enough to make something metal. For it to be metal it has to come from metal, which is why beatdown hardcore or really heavy industrial music or whatever aren't metal despite having the same sort of surface level similarities that nu-metal does.

I don't vehemently give a shit about it now in the way I did when I was 18 but I'll always remember having an argument about it with a friend and shutting him up by grabbing a couple random "metal" songs he threw out and then finding guitar tabs to show him of them.
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KaiKasparek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:06 pm
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Location: Suomi Finland Bukkake
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:44 am 
 

SanPeron wrote:
I think it was more of a thing of the old generation of metalheads, the one who grew up in the 80s and saw the peak of metal music as a whole. Then these kids came with their 7-string guitars and drop D tuning, with big bass sounds and hip-hop style drums and they thought "What the fuck is this shit? This doesn't sound like Megadeth". And when this style started to be massive and commercially successful while old styles of metal like thrash or traditional heavy metal were struggling to be relevant, they got mad and said stuff like, "This shit isn't metal, only if you play like Manowar you are metal, if not you are a poser". Most kids obviously didn't give a fuck, but the tradition of the old metalheads bashing the new generation kept going, that's why also genres like metalcore or deathcore are frowned upon by the previous metal generation.

In short, if you do something new and commercially successful in metal you will probably be called false metal by the previous generation, it's a cycle of our community.



The problem with this argument is it never felt like this situation happened with the 70s and the 80s. It felt like things still had a strong lineage connection with history despite moving things forward. That was the thing about metal, move forward but with respect to history. You're not supposed to toss out the past here today gone tomorrow like so many other pop genres do. Nu metal did do that. And it was a big problem. The old generations should have pulled more of a Paul Baloff and beaten up some of these posers.
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LilTito
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:13 am 
 

I'd say some nu metal bands are 100% metal, others maybe not at all

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4482
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:49 am 
 

KaiKasparek wrote:
SanPeron wrote:
I think it was more of a thing of the old generation of metalheads, the one who grew up in the 80s and saw the peak of metal music as a whole. Then these kids came with their 7-string guitars and drop D tuning, with big bass sounds and hip-hop style drums and they thought "What the fuck is this shit? This doesn't sound like Megadeth". And when this style started to be massive and commercially successful while old styles of metal like thrash or traditional heavy metal were struggling to be relevant, they got mad and said stuff like, "This shit isn't metal, only if you play like Manowar you are metal, if not you are a poser". Most kids obviously didn't give a fuck, but the tradition of the old metalheads bashing the new generation kept going, that's why also genres like metalcore or deathcore are frowned upon by the previous metal generation.

In short, if you do something new and commercially successful in metal you will probably be called false metal by the previous generation, it's a cycle of our community.



The problem with this argument is it never felt like this situation happened with the 70s and the 80s. It felt like things still had a strong lineage connection with history despite moving things forward. That was the thing about metal, move forward but with respect to history. You're not supposed to toss out the past here today gone tomorrow like so many other pop genres do. Nu metal did do that. And it was a big problem. The old generations should have pulled more of a Paul Baloff and beaten up some of these posers.


By the 90's metal was such a formalized genre with "rules" that were not as hard coded yet in the 80's I think. When I listen to the major players in the late 90's nu metal scene I don't really hear them disrespecting metal as much as talking about how they had a lot of influences that were not metal. And sure a lot of nu-metal wasn't metal. I don't hear much metal in Linkin Park, but Slipknot is a metal band. And metal fans who are trying to put on a front to stay "true" are often comical. I don't know how many times I've read nonsensical stuff like "Well the Black Album is a decent hard rock album...." What is metal is too often what the person likes.

But outside of forums like this a lot of the old "we must gatekeep things" is dead. When hanging out with my 20 something godson and his friends the music will jump from Slayer to Yung Gravy to Whiskey Meyers to Slipknot, etc. They just listen to whatever they want and don't get hung up on all the Baloff/Manowar stuff.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:01 am 
 

it's such a broad/vague genre, including everything from limp bizkit (hardly any metal influence) to slipknot (plenty of metal influence), that whether the genre is metal or not, is just not a well defined question to begin with

and even when we focus the question to "is band x metal?", it still doesn't really make sense, since the question demands a binary answer from a blurry source: most bands aren't strictly one genre, and where you draw the line is completely subjective. is cynic a jazz band? obviously they are heavily influenced by jazz, but i don't see many people being in support of that view
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Wrldeatr
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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:13 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:20 am 
 

I'm part of the old generation and I never connected with nu-metal, precisely because, the way I see it, it's not metal enough. Sure it'll have a couple of seconds of metal here and there. But by and large it's something other than metal. As pointed out, some bands are more metal than others, and some should be considered metal because there's enough there to make it a metal song or album. I can't speak of the genre as a whole, the "nu-metal" designation would imply that it is metal, but many or most bands themselves have rejected that label. Perhaps it should be asked of the bands, whether they consider what they play is metal or not.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:14 pm 
 

Yeah LB isn't metal though they have some metallic riffing in their songs here and there. Though Slipknot songs are largely built around metal riffs, blast beats, and influences from the extreme end of the genre.

And the genre isn't really for me. I like some NM songs but the only album from that scene I have is Vol 3 which I mostly bought due to Duality. Though its pretty good on whole. I've been dabbling a bit in Deftones though. But those vocals are tough for me, and I like non standard vocals.

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MetlaNZ
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:36 pm 
 

Because it doesn't sound like Manowar. Duh.

Wimps and posers leave the hall.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:39 pm 
 

True. When looking at a new album I think "would Joey D throw this out of the hall?"

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I Am the Law
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Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:46 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:55 pm 
 

A lot of the bands are rooted in and influenced by metal bands but have too many non-metal elements and not enough metal riffs. There's a spectrum where some bands have more metal like Slipknot and some have less metal like Limp Bizkit or Linkin Park but in my opinion none of those bands have enough metal to outweigh the non-metal elements. And it also goes back to the idea that something being heavy does not always mean it's metal. There has to be a delineation somewhere.

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nakzox
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:35 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:18 pm 
 

I always thought it was just heavier and more aggressive alt-rock/RATM, at least the stuff like Korn and Limp Bizkit.

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CoffeeCat
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:09 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:50 pm 
 

For me it really depends on the band. Are Slipknot, Korn and System of a down metal? I'd say they're more heavier rock than metal, but there is definitely some metal in them. Linkin Park or Limp Bizkit? Not so much.

I also think the lineage is pretty different. Most metal bands come out of existing metal scenes and are very obviously influenced by them. But nu metal feels much more like an offshoot of 90s rock genres (grunge, funk, pop punk, etc.) and maybe some hardcore, even if a lot of those artists also listened to metal.
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Kalimata
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:34 pm 
 

So-called nu metal bands have more or less metal elements but are rather alternative rock with other influences like grunge, hardcore or hip-hop. Some have strong metal elements while others have almost no one.
Anyway, I wouldn't say nu metal is a pure metal subgenre but more a fusion genre. In the 90's, most of the nu metal audience weren't metalheads. There were a few traditional metalheads liking it because it was something fresh and new. But definitely, nu metal fans were mostly teenagers who had almost no (to zero) connection with the traditional metal scene, and didn't share the same culture at all, although some of them considered themselves metalheads without knowing anything about the history of the genre. I guess it answers the question.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:08 pm 
 

I'm not sure fan attachment to "the scene" should really be a factor in how a band's music is categorized.

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HeavenDuff
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:41 pm 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
It is a genre that evolved out of heavy metal, just like heavy metal evolved out of rock, and rock evolved (this is going back a ways) out of country and blues music of the early 1950s. And as things evolve, the sounds reaches a point where they have drifted far enough away from what they evolved out of- to no longer fit the definition.

Nu Metal has common roots with metal, but also has common roots with rap, funk and industrial, and has blended these sounds in such a way that, for the most part, it doesn't strictly qualify as metal anymore.

The question is where do you draw the line between what is metal and what no longer qualifies as such, and that question is left to the staff in charge of band submissions. There are a few bands I would argue still have enough traditional metal influences to qualify- but that's not really up to me.


I tend to align with this. And this other post kind of completes the whole idea :

HighwayCorsair wrote:
The way I always saw it is that most of the nu-metal stuff is downtuned alt rock with distortion if you actually pay attention to what the guitars are playing, and distortion and downtuning enough isn't enough to make something metal. For it to be metal it has to come from metal, which is why beatdown hardcore or really heavy industrial music or whatever aren't metal despite having the same sort of surface level similarities that nu-metal does.

I don't vehemently give a shit about it now in the way I did when I was 18 but I'll always remember having an argument about it with a friend and shutting him up by grabbing a couple random "metal" songs he threw out and then finding guitar tabs to show him of them.


It's not so much that there is nothing metal in nu-metal, as much as it kind of drifted away enough for it to be debattably not metal anymore, but kind of it's own thing.

The debate always seems to resurface every now and then, and I guess it's (almost solely) because the word "metal" is in the genre name, while we don't do this with hardcore and industrial music. Like, nobody gets pissed when we call Nine Inch Nails industrial, or Circle of Death hardcore.

There definitely will be an overlap between nu-metal and metal, as it's a genre that was born out of metal, as well as other genres of music. But nowadays, when I listend to bands like Linkin Park, Slipknot, Papa Roach, System of a Down, Rammstein (which is hardly even nu-metal to be fair, as we should call it Neue Deutsche Härte) and whatnot, I don't find much metal in the guitars. Sure, there's some very obvious death metal drumming in Slipknot, for instance, but that's kind of it. Most of nu-metal is just so far removed from metal when it comes to the riffing, that I have a hard time even figuring out where it would fit in metal if we actually included it in metal.

I also personnally do not hate nu-metal. Not all of it anyway. There's a few essential albums in the genre, even if the genre also produced a lot of terrible music.

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Ace_Rimmer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:13 pm 
 

But a lot of black metal is surf guitar with distortion and that gets counted.

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Auch
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 576
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:47 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
KaiKasparek wrote:
SanPeron wrote:
I think it was more of a thing of the old generation of metalheads, the one who grew up in the 80s and saw the peak of metal music as a whole. Then these kids came with their 7-string guitars and drop D tuning, with big bass sounds and hip-hop style drums and they thought "What the fuck is this shit? This doesn't sound like Megadeth". And when this style started to be massive and commercially successful while old styles of metal like thrash or traditional heavy metal were struggling to be relevant, they got mad and said stuff like, "This shit isn't metal, only if you play like Manowar you are metal, if not you are a poser". Most kids obviously didn't give a fuck, but the tradition of the old metalheads bashing the new generation kept going, that's why also genres like metalcore or deathcore are frowned upon by the previous metal generation.

In short, if you do something new and commercially successful in metal you will probably be called false metal by the previous generation, it's a cycle of our community.



The problem with this argument is it never felt like this situation happened with the 70s and the 80s. It felt like things still had a strong lineage connection with history despite moving things forward. That was the thing about metal, move forward but with respect to history. You're not supposed to toss out the past here today gone tomorrow like so many other pop genres do. Nu metal did do that. And it was a big problem. The old generations should have pulled more of a Paul Baloff and beaten up some of these posers.


By the 90's metal was such a formalized genre with "rules" that were not as hard coded yet in the 80's I think. When I listen to the major players in the late 90's nu metal scene I don't really hear them disrespecting metal as much as talking about how they had a lot of influences that were not metal. And sure a lot of nu-metal wasn't metal. I don't hear much metal in Linkin Park, but Slipknot is a metal band. And metal fans who are trying to put on a front to stay "true" are often comical. I don't know how many times I've read nonsensical stuff like "Well the Black Album is a decent hard rock album...." What is metal is too often what the person likes.

But outside of forums like this a lot of the old "we must gatekeep things" is dead. When hanging out with my 20 something godson and his friends the music will jump from Slayer to Yung Gravy to Whiskey Meyers to Slipknot, etc. They just listen to whatever they want and don't get hung up on all the Baloff/Manowar stuff.


To be fair, as I've gotten older, I've moved away from using genre as a qualifier for the type of music I'll "only" listen to, so gone are the days I'll only listen to music even if I like certain genres over others and use genre to decide whether to try things out. And I'll jump between wildly different genres and bands in my day to day listening (like I'm sure many people here do too). I just don't talk about it much here since it's a metal section of a metal forum. I think people using rigid genre delineations to silo their tastes and preferences has been falling away for a while now, but that really has been accelerated in the age of almost all-online music distribution, streaming, algorithms, etc. so that trend is becoming more and more apparent with young people.

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Kalimata
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:44 am 
 

nakzox wrote:
I always thought it was just heavier and more aggressive alt-rock/RATM, at least the stuff like Korn and Limp Bizkit.


Indeed.

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I'm not sure fan attachment to "the scene" should really be a factor in how a band's music is categorized.


You're right, but it helps understand. If one genre's listeners cannot identify to a new scene, it may indicate something?

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
But a lot of black metal is surf guitar with distortion and that gets counted.


You're repeating a stupid meme that has also no link with the question.

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Lagartija
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
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Location: Catalunya
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:36 am 
 

I don't think its commercial success was a major reason, look how huge Maiden and Metallica became and no one ever doubted they were metal (although Metallica then evolved to alt rock, but that was really after the fact).
I think it was based more on the music and image, it had much more in common with hip hop than it did with metal.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:04 am 
 

I generally echo the sentiments of those on here whom doubt nu-metal's metal bona fides on the grounds that they are simply alternative rock bands that decided to be a little louder and more dissonant. This is particularly the case with the early progenitors of the style like Korn, Deftones, RATM and also most of the heavily hip-hop oriented middle era groups like 311 and, yes I'm going to include them based on their early material, Sugar Ray. This is the thing that needs to be understood about the broader alt. metal movement, of which nu-metal primarily derives its heavier influences. Most alt. metal bands lean more heavily in the alternative direction, including some of the ones that are accepted on this site like Faith No More. Groups like Mind Over Four and Mindfunk were generally exceptions to a rule that I'd argue disqualifies about 95% of nu-metal and alt. metal from qualifying as metal in any sufficient sense.

P.S. - In my personal experience, apart from grunge fans, the most shit I've ever gotten for liking traditional 80s heavy metal bands like Dio and Manowar came from nu-metal fans, so I think there is something to the notion that the nu-metal scene was hostile to at least traditional heavy metal, regardless of whether any of the prominent bands or artists dumped on them in interviews or not.
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Benedict Donald
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:15 am 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
True. When looking at a new album I think "would Joey D throw this out of the hall?"


LMFAO!!

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LilTito
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
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Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:52 am 
 

Why is alt rock so firmly rock but nu metal couldn't possibly be metal?

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Ace_Rimmer
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:13 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
nakzox wrote:
I always thought it was just heavier and more aggressive alt-rock/RATM, at least the stuff like Korn and Limp Bizkit.


Indeed.

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I'm not sure fan attachment to "the scene" should really be a factor in how a band's music is categorized.


You're right, but it helps understand. If one genre's listeners cannot identify to a new scene, it may indicate something?

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
But a lot of black metal is surf guitar with distortion and that gets counted.


You're repeating a stupid meme that has also no link with the question.


Maybe but listening to that tremolo riffing and comparing it to the crunching, chugging riffage of Accept, Metallica, Priest, etc, its an very different sound but still metal. Yet the crunchy riffs of the heavier numetal bands are just alt rock.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:24 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
I generally echo the sentiments of those on here whom doubt nu-metal's metal bona fides on the grounds that they are simply alternative rock bands that decided to be a little louder and more dissonant. This is particularly the case with the early progenitors of the style like Korn, Deftones, RATM and also most of the heavily hip-hop oriented middle era groups like 311 and, yes I'm going to include them based on their early material, Sugar Ray. This is the thing that needs to be understood about the broader alt. metal movement, of which nu-metal primarily derives its heavier influences. Most alt. metal bands lean more heavily in the alternative direction, including some of the ones that are accepted on this site like Faith No More. Groups like Mind Over Four and Mindfunk were generally exceptions to a rule that I'd argue disqualifies about 95% of nu-metal and alt. metal from qualifying as metal in any sufficient sense.

P.S. - In my personal experience, apart from grunge fans, the most shit I've ever gotten for liking traditional 80s heavy metal bands like Dio and Manowar came from nu-metal fans, so I think there is something to the notion that the nu-metal scene was hostile to at least traditional heavy metal, regardless of whether any of the prominent bands or artists dumped on them in interviews or not.


As hostility I found that in the heavier ends of metal as well. When everyone around here was neck deep into thrash and heavier speed metal, a lot of trad metal was thrown in the same bin as Twisted Sister or White Lion and considered weak and lame. I was young and foolish during that time and I missed out on some good stuff due to sharing a lot of that attitude in order to fit in with the crowd.

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Oxenkiller
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:58 pm 
 

LilTito wrote:
Why is alt rock so firmly rock but nu metal couldn't possibly be metal?


Because Rock is a much broader genre that encompasses a much broader variety of sounds- and it is the over-arching genre from which metal, punk, and a host of other genres originally spawned.

The question is like asking, why are baboons still considered mammals, but cats aren't considered dogs.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:56 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
As hostility I found that in the heavier ends of metal as well. When everyone around here was neck deep into thrash and heavier speed metal, a lot of trad metal was thrown in the same bin as Twisted Sister or White Lion and considered weak and lame. I was young and foolish during that time and I missed out on some good stuff due to sharing a lot of that attitude in order to fit in with the crowd.


There has always been some level of friction between differing sub-genres and their corresponding scenes, I can still recall that goofy diss song that Lich King wrote about the black metal scene like it was yesterday. lol

But in all seriousness, I'm sure that it was far more common in the late 80s and early 90s when thrash and then death metal blew up commercially for heavier bands to rip on lighter ones, but since I was born in 1980 I didn't experience much of it as I didn't encounter full formed cliques until around 1993 when alternative rock had become ubiquitous. I saw it some times with online death metal hardliners like the guys that used to associate with the whole ANUS thing (I'm something of a loner so I only really encountered these types during the early days of this forum), but they were more fixated on bashing European power metal instead of older trad metal bands. That may have changed since the whole NWOTHM thing really took off, but honestly, I'm just so uninterested in anything those juiceheads over on deathmetal.org have to say on anything that I don't really bother with them, the crap they threw at Chuck Schuldiner alone turned me off completely.
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4638
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:02 pm 
 

A lot of nu metal is indeed considered metal. Metal Archives doesn't necessarily reflect what the broad public thinks. Hell, even stuff like Rammstein is considered metal by most people.

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DeadKid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 536
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:23 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
it's such a broad/vague genre, including everything from limp bizkit (hardly any metal influence) to slipknot (plenty of metal influence)

At the not-so-metal end of the spectrum it's a grey area as to which bands aren't nu metal at all. So it's not easy to say nu metal = metal and then draw a precise line somewhere. At the peak of nu metal, bands such as Staind, Puddle of Mudd and Creed were all lumped in there too.
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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 522
Location: France
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:22 am 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
P.S. - In my personal experience, apart from grunge fans, the most shit I've ever gotten for liking traditional 80s heavy metal bands like Dio and Manowar came from nu-metal fans, so I think there is something to the notion that the nu-metal scene was hostile to at least traditional heavy metal, regardless of whether any of the prominent bands or artists dumped on them in interviews or not.


I had the same experience during my high school days back in 1995-1998. Nu metal, grunge, alternative rock and pop-punk fans were in the same group an were mocking us because we liked Iron Maiden and the whole traditional metal scene. But I remember some metalheads used to like Korn in the beginning because there was a connection with Pantera, Machine Head... But they were not hanging that much with the alternative guys.
Around 2000-2002, a lot of nu-metal fans (who listened to Marylin Manson too) even called themselves "gothic" and were mocking all those who listened to 80's metal or 80's gothic rock.

It is very clear that nu metal fans were kind of alternative guys calling themselves "metal" (or "gothic") and being perceived as such by the mainstream. But they definitely were disconnected from those genres' history. Nu metal's most obvious lineage is grunge.

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LilTito
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Posts: 690
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:49 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
LilTito wrote:
Why is alt rock so firmly rock but nu metal couldn't possibly be metal?


Because Rock is a much broader genre that encompasses a much broader variety of sounds- and it is the over-arching genre from which metal, punk, and a host of other genres originally spawned.

The question is like asking, why are baboons still considered mammals, but cats aren't considered dogs.

Ehh at this point in time metal is as diverse as rock and separated enough to be its own genre

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poormouth100
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:34 pm
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:31 am 
 

Most nu-metal bands don't use metal riffs, instead it's more like funk/alternative rock guitars with hip hop beats. The problem with nu-metal isn't that, though, as I love many bands who are not metal. The real issue is that nu-metal fucking sucks outside of like, two or three bands at most.

I also do not understand why nu-metal fans (I guess you could include metalcore/deathcore in here too) are so eager to have their music taste validated by others. 99% of the time these guys don't even listen to any "metal" outside of a few token bands like Megadeth and Cannibal Corpse or something. People should like what they like but the incessant cloying to be accepted is annoying as hell. Just listen to the fucking music.

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pressingtoplead13
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 737
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:16 am 
 

To me everything gets murkier as things continue to evolve because everything has splintered so much. Originally IMO metal was distinct in its riffing/song structure as well as the tones they used. Over the years things really splintered IMO to two kinda things. 1. Bands who use metal riffage and song structure. These bands tend to always be considered metal regardless of how extreme they are. 2. Bands whom tonally sound like metal but lack some of the distinct riffage and song structure. Group 2 is where you'll run into Deathcore and Nu Metal and other stuch artists.
Take a band like Spite. Spite clearly takes alot of influence from hardcore in terms of song structure and guitar riffs, however tonally they do alot of similar things that death metal bands do, as well as the inclusion of blast beats which show death metal influence. Now most would argue Spite is a hardcore/beatdown type of band which is probably why they arent on this site, but not only do they sound similar in tones/tuning/production to modern death metal, they are clearly heavily influenced, I would argue that although lacking the traditional riff structures that Spite has drastically more in common with Suffocation, than Suffocation does with Iron Maiden yet both of those bands are easily recognized under the metal umbrella.

At the end of the day does it really matter though, people can think what they want. I come from a death metal background, grew up on Morbid Angel, Exhumed, Suffocation, Cannibal Corpse, Nile, Behemoth, Deicide, Disgorge, Deeds of Flesh, however as much as I still love all those bands, in the last 10 years Signs of the Swarm has been my favorite band, should I care if the internet wants to claim them as metal or deathcore? At the end of the day i've met the members, they are heavily influenced and fans of some of those bands i mentioned. Call them what you want, i'll just call them good.

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poormouth100
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:34 pm
Posts: 187
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:41 am 
 

Agreed. The debate over what is and isn't "real metal" is just cringe at this point, and despite all the years of debate not one person ever seems to change their mind. If you like nu-metal, cool, that's just your taste in music. It gets irritating though when all you listen to is Korn and Slipknot and you whine because some people don't consider them "real metal", like who gives a fuck? Why do people even need their music taste validated by others? If all you listen to is nu-metal and metalcore then just say you like those genres, you don't need to frame it as if you're a huge metalhead when you'd probably turn an Incantation album off after three songs. You shouldn't even give a fuck if it's considered metal, like what, you need some dude online who listens exclusively to Colombian brutal death metal demos to pat you on the head or some shit? Fuck me just listen to the music you like and chill the fuck out, guys, it ain't that deep.

I'm not too knowledgeable about the punk and hardcore scene, but I don't really see that shit happening over there, like people crying about the bands they like being considered more metal than punk. Maybe I'm just blind to it or some shit.

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BodomSlayer
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:39 am
Posts: 88
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:45 am 
 

poormouth100 wrote:
Agreed. The debate over what is and isn't "real metal" is just cringe at this point, and despite all the years of debate not one person ever seems to change their mind. If you like nu-metal, cool, that's just your taste in music. It gets irritating though when all you listen to is Korn and Slipknot and you whine because some people don't consider them "real metal", like who gives a fuck? Why do people even need their music taste validated by others? If all you listen to is nu-metal and metalcore then just say you like those genres, you don't need to frame it as if you're a huge metalhead when you'd probably turn an Incantation album off after three songs. You shouldn't even give a fuck if it's considered metal, like what, you need some dude online who listens exclusively to Colombian brutal death metal demos to pat you on the head or some shit? Fuck me just listen to the music you like and chill the fuck out, guys, it ain't that deep.

I'm not too knowledgeable about the punk and hardcore scene, but I don't really see that shit happening over there, like people crying about the bands they like being considered more metal than punk. Maybe I'm just blind to it or some shit.


It all comes down to identity and feeling a part of that community. I know I had been one of those "real" people before but, thankfully, have mellowed as I age. Now when people tell me they listen to stuff like Korn, Distrubed, etc I acknowledge them for what they like but when they ask why I don't like those bands I just tell them I like stuff that is heavier.

RE: Slipknot, as someone who used to hate them with a passion. I consider them metal at this point, they fit a lot of the 'criteria'. We're all just one big happy, angry, and proud family.

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