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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:55 pm 
 

joppek wrote:
no, what hardworlder is saying is absolutely right - you're using circular reasoning here: "nu-metal must be metal since it's in the name, and it's in the name because that's what it is." that's a broken argument


Going back to the roots of the concept of heavy metal, it was described as "a crude exaggeration of rock basics that appeals to white teenagers". This may not apply to all nu metal bands, and some bands like Linkin Park arguably shouldn't have been named as such, but it clearly applies to most bands within the genre.

Pointing to the style's syncopated rhythms as non-metal also makes no sense, as many seminal heavy metal bands incorporated such rhythms into their music. The very linear rhythmic style the genre has become known for is not necessarily a must. Take a band like Meshuggah, who are widely accepted as metal and almost never use linear rhythms.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4435
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 3:20 pm 
 

Yeah, Linkin Park is not close to metal, but a lot of the genre is. MA is a great site but they are too "pure" sometimes, yet they will have Mortiis in here or Rush. Granted I love Rush and like Mortiis. Oh well I'm not paying the bills.

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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:19 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Yeah, Linkin Park is not close to metal, but a lot of the genre is. MA is a great site but they are too "pure" sometimes, yet they will have Mortiis in here or Rush. Granted I love Rush and like Mortiis. Oh well I'm not paying the bills.


I find the discussion interesting and enjoy reading the different takes. I don't have super strong feelings on a lot of it because there's some gray area IMO, but I find it enlightening to read the arguments about why something is or is not metal.

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hells_unicorn
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:56 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
Going back to the roots of the concept of heavy metal, it was described as "a crude exaggeration of rock basics that appeals to white teenagers". This may not apply to all nu metal bands, and some bands like Linkin Park arguably shouldn't have been named as such, but it clearly applies to most bands within the genre.


I'm not trying to nitpick you here, but could you source where you got your definition of heavy metal, because it doesn't sound like it's from an objective source like a dictionary or encyclopedia? If you're relying on entertainment media polemics from the late 60s/early 70s against Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath (which is what you quoted sounds like), it's going to give you a skewed perspective on what heavy metal was historically and is at present.

On the Linkin Park question, they fall under the same category as RATM and 311 for me in being more of a hip hop/alt rock hybrid, so I didn't really consider them in contention on the nu-metal question. I think we can all agree that the focal point of this discussion is generally heavier bands that were associated with said movement.

Quote:
Pointing to the style's syncopated rhythms as non-metal also makes no sense, as many seminal heavy metal bands incorporated such rhythms into their music. The very linear rhythmic style the genre has become known for is not necessarily a must. Take a band like Meshuggah, who are widely accepted as metal and almost never use linear rhythms.


I may have missed something here, but I don't recall anyone bringing up "syncopated rhythms" as a qualifier for something being metal before your post here. Forget Meshuggah, you could toss out virtually every prog metal band on this site if you're going by that, it was never something on my radar in this discussion or anywhere beyond it on the nu-metal question. For me the primary issue is timbre, atmosphere, and a combination of other sonic qualities that generally tie all of metal into one umbrella, of which I'd argue nu-metal deviates far too much to qualify.

Hardworlder wrote:
I find the discussion interesting and enjoy reading the different takes. I don't have super strong feelings on a lot of it because there's some gray area IMO, but I find it enlightening to read the arguments about why something is or is not metal.


I'm generally in the same boat, though I think I may be a bit more personally invested in it due to past experiences. Admittedly, part of why I don't like nu-metal, and before it grunge and alternative rock, is due to a combination of being denied easy access to music I preferred back in the day (I almost impoverished myself importing CDs so I could get around the dross that dominated rock radio in the 90s) and friction with others my age due to my musical taste. I do try to put aside my personal biases against these other types/styles of rock when discussing their category in discussions like this, as liking or not liking a type of music is quite different from one's views on how it should be categorized.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4435
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:13 pm 
 

Hardworlder wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Yeah, Linkin Park is not close to metal, but a lot of the genre is. MA is a great site but they are too "pure" sometimes, yet they will have Mortiis in here or Rush. Granted I love Rush and like Mortiis. Oh well I'm not paying the bills.


I find the discussion interesting and enjoy reading the different takes. I don't have super strong feelings on a lot of it because there's some gray area IMO, but I find it enlightening to read the arguments about why something is or is not metal.


Me too.

To keep it going...I find the riffage argument dodgy at times. I find a lot of the nu-metal riffing to be closer to Sabbath than a lot of black metal riffing.

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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:20 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Hardworlder wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Yeah, Linkin Park is not close to metal, but a lot of the genre is. MA is a great site but they are too "pure" sometimes, yet they will have Mortiis in here or Rush. Granted I love Rush and like Mortiis. Oh well I'm not paying the bills.


I find the discussion interesting and enjoy reading the different takes. I don't have super strong feelings on a lot of it because there's some gray area IMO, but I find it enlightening to read the arguments about why something is or is not metal.


Me too.

To keep it going...I find the riffage argument dodgy at times. I find a lot of the nu-metal riffing to be closer to Sabbath than a lot of black metal riffing.


Which is absolutely true, and the same can be said for "grunge", which was very often just a mixture of punk and heavy metal with John Bonham-style shuffle drumming, but somehow ended up being seen as the ultimate offender, while it was much more true to the bluesy roots of heavy metal than, say, glam like Dokken and W.A.S.P. was.

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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:29 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:

I'm generally in the same boat, though I think I may be a bit more personally invested in it due to past experiences. Admittedly, part of why I don't like nu-metal, and before it grunge and alternative rock, is due to a combination of being denied easy access to music I preferred back in the day (I almost impoverished myself importing CDs so I could get around the dross that dominated rock radio in the 90s) and friction with others my age due to my musical taste. I do try to put aside my personal biases against these other types/styles of rock when discussing their category in discussions like this, as liking or not liking a type of music is quite different from one's views on how it should be categorized.


Oh yeah man I totally get it. On a personal level I HATE most nu-metal, I remember being vaguely interested in it when it first came out because it was DIFFERENT but the novelty wore off really quickly. I also try to look at it unbiased here, but it's hard. That's why I generally refrain from actually entering the metal/not-metal discussion aside from pointing out obvious logical fallacies lol.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:36 pm 
 

I hated nü-metal for a long time, and still hate most of it. I own one album form that scene, Vol 3 by Slipknot. But there are gems in there. And I think I'm finally coming around on Deftones a bit.

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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:48 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I hated nü-metal for a long time, and still hate most of it. I own one album form that scene, Vol 3 by Slipknot. But there are gems in there. And I think I'm finally coming around on Deftones a bit.


The first three Deftones albums are incredible.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4435
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:54 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I hated nü-metal for a long time, and still hate most of it. I own one album form that scene, Vol 3 by Slipknot. But there are gems in there. And I think I'm finally coming around on Deftones a bit.


The first three Deftones albums are incredible.


I can get into strange vocals. King Diamond, Mark Shelton, Billy Corgan, etc. But that dude was so off-putting, but I think they are starting to click with me.

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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 5:56 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
I hated nü-metal for a long time, and still hate most of it. I own one album form that scene, Vol 3 by Slipknot. But there are gems in there. And I think I'm finally coming around on Deftones a bit.


Yeah some Slipknot is okay, though I honestly haven't listened to any of it in over a decade so my memory is fuzzy- I vaguely recall a few decent moments on Iowa which IIRC was the only album I had (edit, maybe it was Vol 3 I don't remember). I have to admit there's a few songs by SOAD that I can't help but like too.
It's the kind of stuff that when I never seek out, but if it comes on somewhere it's mostly inoffensive, with a few fun moments.
Then there's shit like Linkn Park which I'd be totally fine if I never heard again. Korn too.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:36 pm 
 

Korn is mostly bad but Got The Life is a great cut.

Was shuffling random Deftones while running around town after work and there were a lot of killer tracks and hard time not calling those guitars metal.

I think White Pony will be bought.

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hells_unicorn
Veteran

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:45 pm 
 

Hardworlder wrote:
Oh yeah man I totally get it. On a personal level I HATE most nu-metal, I remember being vaguely interested in it when it first came out because it was DIFFERENT but the novelty wore off really quickly. I also try to look at it unbiased here, but it's hard. That's why I generally refrain from actually entering the metal/not-metal discussion aside from pointing out obvious logical fallacies lol.


I had a brief interest in the first Korn album for a short period of time, but it wore thin for me pretty quickly. For a band that appropriated 7-string guitars originally showcased by Steve Vai, they didn't really seem keen on exploring much of the possibilities those instruments offered, and Jonathan Davis' vocals went from mildly annoying to utterly detestable about as quickly as Eddie Vedder's did for me a few years earlier. By the time I was finishing up my senior year of high school and Limp Bizkit's "3 Dollar Bill Y'all" was blasting in my bands' drummer's car, I knew that me and nu-metal were a bad combination.

I had a second flirtation briefly with Slipknot soon after "Iowa" came out, largely thanks to "My Plague" being included on the Resident Evil movie soundtrack (I went through an obsessive period with Milla Jovovich's work after seeing The Fifth Element), but it lasted a couple months and then I was back to grubbing on my favorite Gamma Ray albums. lol
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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:42 pm 
 

I only started listening to nu metal myself a few years ago, so for me it's interesting to be able to see it from an outsider's perspective and recognise it for its qualities and faults without having to overcome my teenage ego. As for early Slipknot, they were an incredible mix of extreme metal genres along with this rusty midwest slasher movie aesthetic. This is an image and presentation that must have been relatable to so many disenfranchised teenagers at the time, and on top of that, they had a fantastic drummer, a talented singer and really good songwriting skills, at least on the debut and Iowa. I now fully understand why they became so big and I recognise that the first two albums are absolute classics in heavy metal.

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brain hammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:55 pm
Posts: 173
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:18 am 
 

“Why isn’t Nu Metal considered Metal?”

Because it sucks.

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Red_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:51 pm
Posts: 1032
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:34 am 
 

Never had a strong opinion about this. When I was getting into metal (very late 90s), the cultural zeitgeist in my neck of the woods was such that there was basically no trace of nu-metal, either in media or my immediate social environment. I didn't have access to MTV and the like, and basically the only piece of metal-related media was actually an old-school-oriented fanzine that somehow had national distribution at kiosks that also sold the two major daily newspapers. Its editors and contributors were clearly in favor of "true" metal.
There was one kid who passed on some Limp Bizkit, I forget which album it was; didn't like it at all as it didn't grab and squeeze my throat like Hell Awaits and Kill 'em All, not to mention it was light years away from the glorious melody of Maiden. It came off as silly and stupidly bouncy music devoid of aggression or intricacy.

Other people down the line handed me Iowa, which with benefit of hindsight seems like a more angsty and teen-oriented (early) Machine Head. Granted, I don't remember the entire album that well, but the impression that remains is that at least the songs that I can recall (basically the entire album up to "The Heretic Anthem") is metal, by way of elimination. A part of the reason why is that it didn't sound like hardcore I knew and know, it was too close in riffing to stuff that is almost never questioned in terms of genre, and it surely didn't sound that different to merit the "it's its own thing really" approach.

I don't like the album that much, but I guess it's kinda alright. "Disasterpiece" has that nifty riff though. On the other hand, I really like System of a Down, but that band's a more quirky entity.
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Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:31 am 
 

One way or another, Slipknot and System of a Down did pave the way for the broader mainstream accessibility of extreme metal, and Joey Jordison got an unreal amount of kids to pick up a pair of sticks and learn how to blast and do fast double bass.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4435
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 11:37 am 
 

brain hammer wrote:
“Why isn’t Nu Metal considered Metal?”

Because it sucks.


There are loads of awful bands in the archives. Quality has nothing to do with genre.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 522
Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:24 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
On the Linkin Park question, they fall under the same category as RATM and 311 for me in being more of a hip hop/alt rock hybrid, so I didn't really consider them in contention on the nu-metal question. I think we can all agree that the focal point of this discussion is generally heavier bands that were associated with said movement.


This statement rightly suggests nu-metal may be a movement and not a genre.

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hells_unicorn
Veteran

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:16 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
On the Linkin Park question, they fall under the same category as RATM and 311 for me in being more of a hip hop/alt rock hybrid, so I didn't really consider them in contention on the nu-metal question. I think we can all agree that the focal point of this discussion is generally heavier bands that were associated with said movement.


This statement rightly suggests nu-metal may be a movement and not a genre.


Yeah, I tend to use the term "movement" in connection with a grouping of bands from a particular time period, and I think looking at nu-metal as a movement that spanned the mid-90s up until the mid-2000s is probably the best way to approach it, it seemed to coincide with the end of the original grunge movement and ran parallel to the subsequent alternative rock trend and the mid-90s pop/punk revival. I think part of why I struggle to fully consider nu-metal a proper sub-genre is that the entertainment media at the time lumped virtually everything that was more aggressive than Third Eye Blind in with other, darker bands. Even though I don't consider Marilyn Manson to be part of the nu-metal movement (he was an industrial/shock rock revivalist with a few modern tweaks), I recall several people I used to hang out with refer to his stuff as nu-metal. Everyone's understanding of what it was at the time was about as all over the place as those who lumped every glam band in with heavy metal during the 80s.
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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:39 pm 
 

I personally see the heavier side of nu metal as part of the mid-90s post-thrash and groove metal scenes based in California, even Slipknot who came from the midwest. They are all heavily influenced by Neurosis, which is rarely mentioned. Especially the tribal rhythms, dissonant guitars and sludgy sound. This is most evident in KoЯn and Machine Head, but many of the other bands in the genre had similar musical characteristics. To me, Coal Chamber, Deftones, Fear Factory, KoЯn, Machine Head, Skinlab, Strapping Young Lad, System of a Down, etc. are different variations of the same musical style and sensibility. The problem with lumping them together in the same category is that, like the Norwegian black metal scene, they were all truly original and had such a personal expression that they ended up under different genre umbrellas. Even the people who despise all these bands can easily tell them apart, which is part of the reason they all became so successful, but they have countless common denominators when you first study them closely.

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MidnightDistortions
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:40 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:08 pm 
 

It makes sense that nu metal isn't considered metal due to abandoning much of the metal style that many who don't really listen to metal seem to not understand. Like most metal fusion genres they lack some to much of the metal sound. Of course what some nu metal or casual metal fans ignore is much of the other styles of metal, power, folk, symphonic metal that sound more modern from the 80s and 90s metal. I still listen to some nu metal, I don't think it's all bad and after listening to various metal which I'd check here to see if they're listed I get the reason why nu metal was heavily rejected.

Unfortunately these fusion styles has caused people to ignorantly claim bands like Sleep Token is metal, metal news media doesn't help with that. And whenever i try to correct people on the matter they think who am i to decide.. it's a bit of a joke really.

I don't consider nu metal, metal in the sense that as I said they abandoned much of what made metal, metal. But yeah, they do have elements of metal and in a sense they are metal but again it's like a mirage, the more you listen to it the further the metal portion of nu metal gets further away. Personally I agree with MA's decision to keep nu metal and other fusion genres off. It's not the 80s obviously but keeping pure metal alive as a foundation for new material should be the priority.

It won't stop people from diverting from that sound to something like Spiritbox (they actually dont sound bad but again.. not really metal) or something worse like Sleep Token (which shouldn't be even labeled as metal period) I think the lack of education on what metal is and what it should be needs to be addressed. Because as people discover metal it shouldn't just be whatever trend hopping scenes are out there. I get metal isn't really a hugely popular genre and should probably stick to the underground.. it is slightly concerning though with the ones at mainstream level..
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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 522
Location: France
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:51 am 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
This is most evident in KoЯn and Machine Head, but many of the other bands in the genre had similar musical characteristics. To me, Coal Chamber, Deftones, Fear Factory, KoЯn, Machine Head, Skinlab, Strapping Young Lad, System of a Down, etc. are different variations of the same musical style and sensibility. The problem with lumping them together in the same category is that, like the Norwegian black metal scene, they were all truly original and had such a personal expression that they ended up under different genre umbrellas.


Sounds absolutely right to me.

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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:47 pm 
 

https://youtu.be/QMdEG1-jY3Q

Really interesting to hear Head explain how KoЯn's sound came about.

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nakzox
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:35 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:51 pm 
 

System of a Down is great IMO and were a big part of me getting back into metal a handful of years ago. They are definitely harder to define though. They definitely had nu-metal elements and their first album is without a doubt nu-metal, but Mezmerize/Hypnotize aren't really like that at all, but I don't know how else to classify it other than "alt metal/rock" which is just an umbrella term really.

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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:09 pm 
 

System of a Down is as nü metal as it's gets because nü metal is already an umbrella term where bands so different as Linkin Park or Soulfly are thrown in that category.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:15 pm 
 

nu metal is honestly as much of a genre as grunge. Its more a "scene" label than anything.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:05 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
It seems only heavy metal fans get this confused.


So only heavy metal fans get confused about what is metal and what isn't. Mmmm, you're right, we should prioritize the opinions of people who aren't knowledgeable of what is metal instead of considering the opinions of people who, you know, are actual metalheads.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:57 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Frozen218 wrote:
It seems only heavy metal fans get this confused.


So only heavy metal fans get confused about what is metal and what isn't. Mmmm, you're right, we should prioritize the opinions of people who aren't knowledgeable of what is metal instead of considering the opinions of people who, you know, are actual metalheads.


You have a point. However most people i know who are metalheads, and since I'm aging rapidly most of these people have been listening since the 1980's, have a bit wider view on what is a metal band than the MA admin staff.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:19 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Frozen218 wrote:
It seems only heavy metal fans get this confused.


So only heavy metal fans get confused about what is metal and what isn't. Mmmm, you're right, we should prioritize the opinions of people who aren't knowledgeable of what is metal instead of considering the opinions of people who, you know, are actual metalheads.


You have a point. However most people i know who are metalheads, and since I'm aging rapidly most of these people have been listening since the 1980's, have a bit wider view on what is a metal band than the MA admin staff.


Oh, but I'm not arguing that these older metalheads might not have some valid opinions on the subject. I know that some of the bands and even entire subgenres can be on the line between being metal and not, and I think these debates around nomenclature, genre definitions, etc. are good to have.

I just don't like the bad faith arguments and logical fallacies flying around this thread. Like people arguing that nu-metal is metal because of the name, or folks arguing that people outside of the metal community refer to Korn as metal, so they must be metal. It's just bullshit.

You want to tell me why you think Korn is metal? Be my guest. We might disagree, but at least it would be a discussion rooted in logical arguments rather then logical fallacies.

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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:42 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Oh, but I'm not arguing that these older metalheads might not have some valid opinions on the subject. I know that some of the bands and even entire subgenres can be on the line between being metal and not, and I think these debates around nomenclature, genre definitions, etc. are good to have.

I just don't like the bad faith arguments and logical fallacies flying around this thread. Like people arguing that nu-metal is metal because of the name, or folks arguing that people outside of the metal community refer to Korn as metal, so they must be metal. It's just bullshit.

You want to tell me why you think Korn is metal? Be my guest. We might disagree, but at least it would be a discussion rooted in logical arguments rather then logical fallacies.


Feel free to point out the circular logic of my argument, but at the end of the day, most people's resistance to recognising nu metal or other genres like metalcore as metal is based solely on their feelings, identity and preconceived notions of what metal is or isn't. It's both childish and even masochistic to have such a strained relationship with music, where you absolutely feel the need to hate new initiatives based on some misguided loyalty to a genre you didn't even help create. To me it's just silly.

I really respect an artist and metalhead like Head, whose favorite band is Dokken and yet ended up creating the sound of KoЯn. It embodies the revolutionary aspect of heavy metal, which is the essence of the genre, and which has unfortunately been lost to this dull and highly neurotic conservatism.


Last edited by Frozen218 on Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:51 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Oh, but I'm not arguing that these older metalheads might not have some valid opinions on the subject. I know that some of the bands and even entire subgenres can be on the line between being metal and not, and I think these debates around nomenclature, genre definitions, etc. are good to have.

I just don't like the bad faith arguments and logical fallacies flying around this thread. Like people arguing that nu-metal is metal because of the name, or folks arguing that people outside of the metal community refer to Korn as metal, so they must be metal. It's just bullshit.

You want to tell me why you think Korn is metal? Be my guest. We might disagree, but at least it would be a discussion rooted in logical arguments rather then logical fallacies.


Feel free to point out the circular logic of my argument, but at the end of the day, most people's resistance to recognising nu metal or other genres like metalcore as metal is based solely on their feelings, identity and preconceived notions of what metal is or isn't. It's both childish and even masochistic to have such a strained relationship with music, where you absolutely feel the need to hate new initiatives based on some misguided loyalty to a genre you didn't even help create. To me it's just silly.


Very very few people in this thread are hating on nu-metal. Hell, I even I admitted I do generally hate it but I'm not presenting an argument on it because my dislike of it is irrelevant to the definition of it. A lot of other people are making good non-emotional arguments on both sides of the debate though.
Childish is claiming nu-metal is metal because the of the name, then refusing to admit it's a terrible circular argument.

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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:54 pm 
 

Hardworlder wrote:
Frozen218 wrote:
HeavenDuff wrote:
Oh, but I'm not arguing that these older metalheads might not have some valid opinions on the subject. I know that some of the bands and even entire subgenres can be on the line between being metal and not, and I think these debates around nomenclature, genre definitions, etc. are good to have.

I just don't like the bad faith arguments and logical fallacies flying around this thread. Like people arguing that nu-metal is metal because of the name, or folks arguing that people outside of the metal community refer to Korn as metal, so they must be metal. It's just bullshit.

You want to tell me why you think Korn is metal? Be my guest. We might disagree, but at least it would be a discussion rooted in logical arguments rather then logical fallacies.


Feel free to point out the circular logic of my argument, but at the end of the day, most people's resistance to recognising nu metal or other genres like metalcore as metal is based solely on their feelings, identity and preconceived notions of what metal is or isn't. It's both childish and even masochistic to have such a strained relationship with music, where you absolutely feel the need to hate new initiatives based on some misguided loyalty to a genre you didn't even help create. To me it's just silly.


Very very few people in this thread are hating on nu-metal. Hell, I even I admitted I do generally hate it but I'm not presenting an argument on it because my dislike of it is irrelevant to the definition of it. A lot of other people are making good non-emotional arguments on both sides of the debate though.
Childish is claiming nu-metal is metal because the of the name, then refusing to admit it's a terrible circular argument.


You know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't play a fool.

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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:00 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't play a fool.


I do know exactly what you're talking about. You're talking about the age old tactic people use when they can't counter an argument- accusing the other side of beng emotional.

I'm pointing out that there are a lot of good logical arguments in this thread.

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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5122
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:12 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
Feel free to point out the circular logic of my argument, but at the end of the day, most people's resistance to recognising nu metal or other genres like metalcore as metal is based solely on their feelings, identity and preconceived notions of what metal is or isn't. It's both childish and even masochistic to have such a strained relationship with music, where you absolutely feel the need to hate new initiatives based on some misguided loyalty to a genre you didn't even help create. To me it's just silly.


I see a lot of people making very rationnal arguments against the inclusion of nu-metal under the metal umbrella, myself included. You can go back to my first post in the thread if you want to read my rationnal thoughts on the matter. My opinion is not rooted in hatred for the nu-metal genre, by the way. One of my favorite bands as a teenager was Slipknot, I also owned a Rammstein album, and still think that Toxicity and Hybrid Theory are amazing albums. However, when I revisit these albums, I find that they lack the essence of metal, most noticeably in the riffs. The riffing often borrows from rock music, sometimes funk, sometimes hardcore, and sometimes metal (yes, sometimes metal), but metal riffs are rarely if ever are at the core of the songwriting process of these bands. Very few bands, like Slipknot, have extreme metal drumming, but that's about it. The guitar riffs are not metal, except for a few ones, here and there.

So yes, I tend to think that nu-metal isn't metal. That's based on rationnal arguments, not emotions.

Also, you should know that there are debates like this for other subgenres or borderline cases as well. It's the case with some dungeon synth, ambient, black metal bands, where the guitars eventually become of a relatively low importance in the mix, and bands/projects of this type might end up not being included on Metal-Archives, because, regardless of their ties with black metal, these bands don't feature (enough) metal elements.

Sure, some people argue against the inclusion of nu-metal in metal because they hate it, but to dismiss all our opinions because of this is... not rationnal...

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4435
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:41 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
You have a point. However most people i know who are metalheads, and since I'm aging rapidly most of these people have been listening since the 1980's, have a bit wider view on what is a metal band than the MA admin staff.


Oh, but I'm not arguing that these older metalheads might not have some valid opinions on the subject. I know that some of the bands and even entire subgenres can be on the line between being metal and not, and I think these debates around nomenclature, genre definitions, etc. are good to have.

I just don't like the bad faith arguments and logical fallacies flying around this thread. Like people arguing that nu-metal is metal because of the name, or folks arguing that people outside of the metal community refer to Korn as metal, so they must be metal. It's just bullshit.

You want to tell me why you think Korn is metal? Be my guest. We might disagree, but at least it would be a discussion rooted in logical arguments rather then logical fallacies.


I don't think Korn is metal, or Linkin Park.

But Deftones? While they have songs with no metal, as does Blind Guardian, most everything I have heard from them does, and I'd say their riffing seemed more line with stuff like Sabbath than Emperor for example, or the hype tremelo guitar picking bm bands. Slipknot is carried by more than enough heavy metal guitar to qualify as well. Yeah a lot of those bands are all rhythm with no lead work, and I don't find much of them all that interesting for that reason, but I don't think the lack of metal riffage argument holds water in some of the cases.

Thankfully I haven't heard enough Limp Bizkit to make a judgement there.

For me its an interesting topic of discussion. My dad thought Pearl Jam was heavy metal so yeah, many throw anything in even if it doesn't qualify.

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Forever Underground
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:35 am
Posts: 1108
Location: Galiza
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:48 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:

For me its an interesting topic of discussion. My dad thought Pearl Jam was heavy metal so yeah, many throw anything in even if it doesn't qualify.

The line for people who care little about categorisation aka most people, is usually much wider when it comes to differentiating between hard rock and heavy metal (as well as not knowing or caring about subgenres like speed or thrash), which is why I'm sure almost all of us have heard people refer to AC/DC, Guns N'roses or Metallica as simply "Heavy Metal" at one time or another.
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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 211
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:12 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Frozen218 wrote:
Feel free to point out the circular logic of my argument, but at the end of the day, most people's resistance to recognising nu metal or other genres like metalcore as metal is based solely on their feelings, identity and preconceived notions of what metal is or isn't. It's both childish and even masochistic to have such a strained relationship with music, where you absolutely feel the need to hate new initiatives based on some misguided loyalty to a genre you didn't even help create. To me it's just silly.


I see a lot of people making very rationnal arguments against the inclusion of nu-metal under the metal umbrella, myself included. You can go back to my first post in the thread if you want to read my rationnal thoughts on the matter. My opinion is not rooted in hatred for the nu-metal genre, by the way. One of my favorite bands as a teenager was Slipknot, I also owned a Rammstein album, and still think that Toxicity and Hybrid Theory are amazing albums. However, when I revisit these albums, I find that they lack the essence of metal, most noticeably in the riffs. The riffing often borrows from rock music, sometimes funk, sometimes hardcore, and sometimes metal (yes, sometimes metal), but metal riffs are rarely if ever are at the core of the songwriting process of these bands. Very few bands, like Slipknot, have extreme metal drumming, but that's about it. The guitar riffs are not metal, except for a few ones, here and there.

So yes, I tend to think that nu-metal isn't metal. That's based on rationnal arguments, not emotions.

Also, you should know that there are debates like this for other subgenres or borderline cases as well. It's the case with some dungeon synth, ambient, black metal bands, where the guitars eventually become of a relatively low importance in the mix, and bands/projects of this type might end up not being included on Metal-Archives, because, regardless of their ties with black metal, these bands don't feature (enough) metal elements.

Sure, some people argue against the inclusion of nu-metal in metal because they hate it, but to dismiss all our opinions because of this is... not rationnal...


I don't know if this is news to you, but heavy metal is a form of rock music that differs only in being more aggressive, ie. "heavier" than your average rock music. This notion that you have to conform to the rules of specific sub-genres of heavy metal like black, death, doom, power, traditional, etc. to be considered "true metal" is a very recent invention. In the 80s and 90s there were absolutely no such rules, and I think that's one of the reasons we saw so much experimentation. Everyone was constantly pushing the boundaries of what heavy metal could be.

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Forever Underground
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:35 am
Posts: 1108
Location: Galiza
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:17 pm 
 

Try to give your source when you make a quote, otherwise we don't know if you have invented it to reinforce your argument.

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He is watching you
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Edit: Nvm, you just deleted the quote lol
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5122
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:52 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
I don't know if this is news to you, but heavy metal is a form of rock music that differs only in being more aggressive, ie. "heavier" than your average rock music. This notion that you have to conform to the rules of specific sub-genres of heavy metal like black, death, doom, power, traditional, etc. to be considered "true metal" is a very recent invention. In the 80s and 90s there were absolutely no such rules, and I think that's one of the reasons we saw so much experimentation. Everyone was constantly pushing the boundaries of what heavy metal could be.


No, heavy metal is not just a "form of form of rock music that differs only in being more aggressive, ie. "heavier" than your average rock music." Get out of here with your Wikipedia definitions.

Forever Underground wrote:
Try to give your source when you make a quote, otherwise we don't know if you have invented it to reinforce your argument.

Spoiler: show
He is watching you
Image


Edit: Nvm, you just deleted the quote lol


Yeah, I guess he was ashamed he quoted me a Wikipedia page, so he erased it. But I had a feeling he was just quoting me some bs definition he took from the first page he found when he googled "Heavy metal".

I mean, specialists spend their life studying musicology and how musical genres evolve and come to be. But hey, why waste your time with any of that scholar shit when you can just solve everything by quoting the first line of any given Wikipedia page and solve everything?

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