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lowki1087
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:56 am
Posts: 26
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:16 pm 
 

Come on guys, cut the man some slack. I mean this is a really really hard list to compile, because establishing a bands importance can be very debatable.You have to take into consideration factors like, how said band affects another, or how without said band this genre wouldn't exist. It's a difficult task seeing how extreme metal is pretty darn big. I mean you have thrash,death,doom and black to represent in only 5 spots and god forbid you were to include fused subgenres like melodic, grind , viking , stoner or even gothic into the equation. I personally think Mr.Dunn was better off making it a 10 or even 15 band list to fully represent the umbrella genre of Extreme metal,but then again you can't please everyone. I somewhat agree with the bands he chose and fully understand why he did, but if I could alter it a bit, mines would be somewhere along the lines of this. Remember this is not facts just an opinion.

Slayer For Carcass -

As much as i like Carcass, and even moreso than the band i'm exchanging them for, their is no way and I mean no way Carcass is more influential to extreme metal as a whole than Slayer. Hell Awaits' importance to extreme metal is beyond words or explaination and influenced so many artists in death and black metal.I just couldn't see this list without Slayer being mentioned.

Darkthrone For Enslaved -

If it were a 15-20 band list i'd have Enslaved on it, but with only 5 spots Darkthrone would have to get in. Why Darkthrone, black metal is already represented on the list by Bathory. True but stylistically speaking Darkthrone's approach to the genre of Black metal has to be one of the most copied/influenced styles i've ever heard in extreme metal period. How many times have you read someone describing a black metal band and the writer uses the term Darkthrone (ish) sound.

Celtic Frost For Possessed -

Now this one I know I might get my head bit off for, but oh well. Similar to the Darkthrone For Enslaved exchange, if it were 10 spots to fill then sure Possessed would be there no problem. Seeing how there's just 5 I just couldn't have them as well as Death on the same list. Both being considered the Godfathers of death metal for space reasons I had to choose between the two,though debatable I felt Death to be more influential. Now onto Celtic Frost, what part of extreme metal hasn't this band touched; thrash, doom, black, gothic, death and industrial. Celtic Frost's influence leaks into some many avenues of Extreme metal I wouldn't feel right not adding them.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:34 pm 
 

That's only reasonable. I would also replace Death with Napalm Death because we should all aknowledge the importance of grindcore.

lowki1087 wrote:
I mean this is a really really hard list to compile, because establishing a bands importance can be very debatable.

Yet he manages to be miles off any reasonable educated guess. That guy is infamous for ignoring well known facts when making up his ridiculous theories about heavy metal history.
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juusokult
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:45 am
Posts: 145
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:24 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
That's only reasonable. I would also replace Death with Napalm Death because we should all aknowledge the importance of grindcore.

Pretty much this, but I would have replaced Carcass with Napalm Death.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:26 pm 
 

But then you still would have had to replace Death with Slayer.
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AFN
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:14 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Malta
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:43 pm 
 

I think the big flaw with the idea here is that there are a great deal more than 5 influential extreme metal bands, for many different reasons at that, thus narrowing the list down to five is impossible and pointless. There's no need for it. Take a band like Slayer, and then take a band like Carcass. Two very different bands with two very different contributions to extreme metal. Restricting such a vast list to 5 bands makes it redundant.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9701
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:37 pm 
 

Not the Worst List Ever but damn this guy is clueless. Enslaved being on the list instead of Darkthrone or Venom is bad enough (and I'd pick Morbid Angel over Carcass), but Bathory's debut s/t being vastly different from Venom? Being "sober" and "artistic", and having epic viking themes? Wha... does he think Bathory's debut is Blood Fire Death or what? :facepalm:
And lol @ Death being influenced by Autopsy. WTF? And "eschewing the primitive for the progressive", err, yeah, Scream Bloody Gore is not primitive and totally "progressive"... dumbass.

inhumanist wrote:
Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.

In terms of derp rating, this post must rank as at least 8 facepalms out of 10.

Spoiler: show
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1208
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:50 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Bathory's debut s/t being vastly different from Venom? Being "sober" and "artistic", and having epic viking themes? Wha... does he think Bathory's debut is Blood Fire Death or what? :facepalm:


What? Read closer; he was clearly referring to Bathory's career as a whole, with only the first sentence pointing out the qualities of the s/t album in particular. Whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant, because you are falsely giving the impression that he is claiming that Bathory's first album had "epic Viking themes", when he did no such thing. The list is about influential bands, not albums, so I assume he stopped talking about the debut after he stopped naming it explicitly.

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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:58 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
Meh, does anyone really care about Sam Dunn anymore?
Yes, I would say most do. It's only this forum that seems to hate him. It's funny the polar opposite feelings that metalheads project, I've had people come up to me that rave up about Metal Evolution, going on and on like it's a fun history lesson, and then I hop on here and see virtually nothing but jaded and bitter remarks.

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cultofkraken
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 1982
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:15 pm 
 

Enslaved would go on my list. In my formative years in the mid-nineties Enslaved had a large impact on both the imagery and development of sounds within pagan black metal. They've managed to stay relevant and evolve over the years, I'd say their importance isn't so much in the formative period of black metal but more so within the more modern evolution of metal as a whole. As most here though my list of bands could never be whittled down to simply five, that's a laughable over simplification of a large diverse genre.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:17 pm 
 

Enslaved is probably my favorite metal band by far but they don't belong on such a list.

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 1208
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:48 pm 
 

I agree with the above. Enslaved is no doubt a talented band, but if you're going for 5 most influential bands of extreme metal (an amazingly wide umbrella term), Enslaved has too narrow an infuence on the genre. They did have a clear focus on Nordic culture, Vikings etc fairly on though, but Bathory definitely covers that earlier than Enslaved.

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Foulchrist
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:25 pm
Posts: 635
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:10 pm 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
bitter remarks


Laughing at clowns = bitter?

:???:

Though, if anybody's actually bitter, I'd imagine it's because it can be a bit irritating to see charlatans gain recognition.

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XcKyle93
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:05 am 
 

Some of you guys seem legitimately angry over this... I don't understand. Revenge of the metal nerds? I mostly agree with the list, though I never really viewed Enslaved as a particularly influential band.
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shouvince
Veteran

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 3169
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:17 am 
 

volutetheswarth wrote:
It's funny the polar opposite feelings that metalheads project, I've had people come up to me that rave up about Metal Evolution, going on and on like it's a fun history lesson, and then I hop on here and see virtually nothing but jaded and bitter remarks.


Well, I wasn't surprised to see these flurry of posts because there are factual errors in some statements made by Dunn and it's not the first time he's done it. And I'd assume that most folks who post on the board aren't the casual metalheads who'll swallow any piece of information without questioning it or debating. Hence, you might get the impression that the remarks are jaded and 'bitter'. Come on, Dunn is only spoken with praise by the average rock fan who knows of metal but doesn't listen to it frequently. Once you've done your own assessment and have listened to a wide variety of metal for a few years, you'd know better.

I was surprised to see the topic spill over to the next page though.

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 4569
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:44 am 
 

I'll respect this as one guy's opinion as opposed to the be-all, end-all listing but no Celtic Frost? Really?!
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:48 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.

In terms of derp rating, this post must rank as at least 8 facepalms out of 10.

Yes, because Venom were actually huge innovators over Motörhead, and were srs as hell. And we should give them all the credit instead of Motörhead because surely all the classic extreme bands didn't even know Motörhead.
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Kveldulfr
Veteran

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:56 am 
 

But Motorhead didn't play any form of extreme metal, Venom did. That's a huge difference.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:01 am 
 

What's so extreme about Venom's music? Apart from production, lyrics and vocals that is. Underneath it's just Motörhead worship.
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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:34 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
What's so extreme about Venom's music? Apart from production, lyrics and vocals that is. Underneath it's just Motörhead worship.

They have Motorhead traits yes, but that production, lyrics, and attitude is WAY more important than you would care to admit. Just accept you are wrong.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:54 am 
 

Whatever.
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Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2483
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:32 am 
 

He won't accept he's wrong. We all know interwebz ego=virtual penis size. Admitting defeat on the internet is tantamount to castration.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:54 am 
 

There was no defeat. Only opinion against opinion. No point in dragging this on any further by insulting each other.
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joppek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 1632
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:10 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
What's so extreme about Venom's music? Apart from production, lyrics and vocals that is. Underneath it's just Motörhead worship.


you could say the same thing about immortal and iron maiden
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:15 am 
 

So you are saying that Immortal and Iron Maiden are as much like Motörhead as Venom? Ssssure thing bro!
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Last edited by inhumanist on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GardensofGrief
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:33 am
Posts: 38
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:16 am 
 

Personally I'd agree with Carcass because they have innovated so many genres, and practically created Melodeath and Goregrind. And I would replace Enslaved with Hellhammer, Venom might have paved the way for Extreme Metal but Hellhammer really pushed the boundaries and were arguably the first true extreme Metal band, that's just my opinion though, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost could probably be grouped together as one I personally see Celtic Frost as a continuation of Hellhammer and both are incredibly influential.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8219
Location: York, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:02 am 
 

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't consider goregrind to be a particularly important evolution in metal history. :P

I could never call Venom's music simply Motorhead worship. I mean, despite all the talk of Venom's sloppiness there's a lot of more intricate Priest-y riffs on those classic Venom albums and if you ask Mantas he'll certainly mention Judas Priest as his main influence. I mean, the Blonde hair and flying V came from somewhere, right, and it wasn't from 'Fast' Eddie! You never got Motorhead writing riffs like 'Black Metal' or 'Don't Burn the Witch' and inhumanist's summary is extremely reductive. Venom took a lot of things from many different bands; Sabbath, Priest, KISS, Motorhead... hell, even Rush! So, if you're going to call Venom "Motorhead worship" you might as well just call Hellhammer "Venom worship".
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joppek
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:08 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
So you are saying that Immortal and Iron Maiden are as much like Motörhead as Venom? Ssssure thing bro!


like said, apart from production, lyrics and vocals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meIh4oZ-hNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8p9JpDuQ-o

and just to clarify, i'm not saying immortal and maiden should be considered closely grouped - i'm saying neither should venom and motörhead
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5635
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:28 am 
 

I must have listened to the wrong Venom all those years.
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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 984
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:48 am 
 

Enslaved?! What the fucking hell are Enslaved doing there?!

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 984
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:54 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
He could fall into a bag of nipples and he'd still come out sucking his thumb.

:lol:

I really enjoyed 'Metal: a headbanger's journey' but Jesus fuck, Sodom death metal? Cradle of Filth Norwegian black metal? :scratch:

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Dudemanguy
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 2448
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:28 am 
 

AFN wrote:
I think the big flaw with the idea here is that there are a great deal more than 5 influential extreme metal bands, for many different reasons at that, thus narrowing the list down to five is impossible and pointless. There's no need for it. Take a band like Slayer, and then take a band like Carcass. Two very different bands with two very different contributions to extreme metal. Restricting such a vast list to 5 bands makes it redundant.

I agree. I have no idea why he didn't just pick 10-15 bands instead. That would have made it a lot easier. Less detail on the individual bands, sure, but you'd be far more accurate overall.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 7922
Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:44 am 
 

It wouldn't have taken a whole lot of thinking to come up with a few sentences of description and justification for the 15 most important extreme metal bands. Anyway, I'm sure the more he could've picked, the more absurd his list would be.
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Dudemanguy
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 2448
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:51 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Anyway, I'm sure the more he could've picked, the more absurd his list would be.

Yeah, good point. :lol:

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9113
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:08 am 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
What's so extreme about Venom's music? Apart from production, lyrics and vocals that is. Underneath it's just Motörhead worship.

They have Motorhead traits yes, but that production, lyrics, and attitude is WAY more important than you would care to admit. Just accept you are wrong.


Not only those things, but, and perhaps more importantly from a mmusical standpoint, three things that Motorhead never had: greater speed ("Witching Hour", "Heaven's on Fire"), nastier vocals, and a panache for the theatrical and bombastically epic that manifests despite any instrumental imperfection the band may have had to deal with...and I'm not just talking about lyrics here (just listen to "At War with Satan"!)
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Paninaro
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:25 pm
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:46 am 
 

Eh... Making a Top 5 list of anything is a dumb idea in the first place, but if the worst that happens is that someone new to metal is mislead into hearing Enslaved, then whatever.

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juicebitch
Juice Bitch

Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 1502
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:06 pm 
 

CELTIC FROST

CELTIC FROST

FUCK.
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Ceald Hraew
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:58 pm 
 

He seems to be more interested in promoting bands he likes than listing the top 5 most important extreme metal bands. Celtic Frost, Mayhem and even Burzum are more influential than Enslaved.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:47 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Whatever.

Good argument! I'll consider this as a concession from your part!
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Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:08 pm 
 

He's a good filmmaker, he did a great job on the Rush documentary, he's just way over his head when it comes to what he's trying to do with metal. Perhaps we should send an emissary and offer him some consultation with the revered elders of the archives (Gutterscream, Napero, and Uncolored).

I'd love to see Sam Dunn make a documentary on death metal with Uncolored advising him - we'd have a great "behind the scenes" documentary too, counting how many times he says "fuck you, you are an enemy of metal!"

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wEEman33
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:12 pm
Posts: 37
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:18 pm 
 

We are the true believers
It's our turn to show the world
In the fire of heavy metal we were burned
It's more than our religion
It's the only way to live
But the enemies of metal we can't forgive

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