Maybe a stupid question because I don't know a thing about both genres, what's the difference between avant-garde and experimental metal?

i use the terms interchangeably but avant-garde is sometimes used for bands more chaotic in their experimentation.

First time I'm hearing of this...light metal! Seriously, what the fuck! It's weird, but at least there's a proper place to label Demon now (the NWOBHM band, aka "softest metal band ever")!!!! Check out the Rush wiki page, where it mentions they play both heavy metal and "light metal". I guess they cancel each other out...

It's either metal, or it's not metal.
Demon has been playing AOR since The Plague.

"Heavy metal or no metal at all (whimps and posers, leave the all").

It's funny because when I was a kid around 1993/1994, I sometimes used the term "light metal" for Iron Maiden because I thought they were not heavy and even light during the twin lead guitar sections of their songs.
I agree with Opus (and Manowar!) that metal should be heavy or should not be. Then something such as "light metal" would never exist. If a riff is not heavy enough, then it's not metal but hard rock or just rock.
But here is a true question: when supposed metal songs use only lead guitars (which are not heavy by nature, and not especially metal sounding, I mean it could only be rock) without metal rhythm guitar's power chords in the background, then is it still metal? Or could it be called "light metal"

I would think that this is a better example of "light metal" than Demon, since Demon has a rock element in there sound. Check out Ashbury.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nZJuJCYR1I

The problem is that it is not heavy, nor is it hard. So it's not even hard rock really. Light rock? That's just silly!

I figure that whole Wikipedia article is a dig at Ghost.



It's just called rock.

Ashbury sounds to me like epic rock/hard rock with a touch of heavy metal. But I don't get why it should be called "light metal". There are rythm guitars and they sound like metallized rock : it definitely has a hard rock nature with metal hints in the sound (a kind of rockier Black Sabbath), and the spirit is metal (though not entirely the music).

Fore sure, "light metal" is a silly thing, who needs this sub-genre!? But if something should be called like that, i'd use it for metal bands that mainly use lead guitars without rythm guitars or far in the background.
But do lead guitar melodies really sound metal? I mean what's the difference beetween a rock and a metal lead guitar?

The same difference there is between a rock and a metal riff. Tempo, phrasing, and scales/intervals used. I like a good, slamming low octave riff as much as anyone, but that's far from the be all and end all of metal.
As for the single guitar bands, well, that's what the bass is supposed to be for. Admittedly, lots of stuff doesn't employ the bass particularly well.

I can't completely agree with that. It's too simplistic and omitting major features.
What primarily defines metal cannot be the tempo, the phrasing and the intervals. Imagine a song using a riff or a melody in minor scale and at high tempo, but without distortion... It is not enough to say it's metal... I can easily find song with those criteria which are just fast alternative pop/rock.

What makes metal to me is where a riff differs from rock/hard rock by two points:
- the heaviness of the guitar sound and phrasing (in the way Sabbath did and made a major rupture from rock in this)
- the use of minor scale (which was not entirely completed by Sabbath, plus minor scales may sometimes sound rock or major scale sound metal). Or the use of intervals which sound more metal than rock?
It's still a bit subjective...

And I still can't make the difference between a rock and a metal lead guitar. When I listen to some twin lead guitar sections by The Eagles or by Iron Maiden, I hear absolutely no difference...

As for the role of the bass, sure it takes the place of the rhythm guitar when this one goes lead. But a basic bass sound doesn't sound metal, except when it's distorted...

I just stumbled upon that Wikipedia article the other day and was pretty "WTF!?" when I saw it.

Anyway, anyone here know anything about "flash metal" a supposed genre mentioned on the entry for the obscure Canadian '80s hair band Dagger, where it's mentioned that this was their actual genre, rather than glam metal as one could deduce from their looks, and that Keel is another band from this genre.

I have personally never encountered the term outside of this entry, and would actually describe both bands as melodic heavy metal/hard rock (in the vein of Dokken, early Europe, TNT, Pink Cream 69, Praying Mantis, Pretty Maids, White Wolf, Stryper etc.).

Is depressive rock a real genre?
The question is motivated by this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoBeMILqp60
It begins rather fast, but from 1:52 it's mostly mid-paced riff and beat. If it's not depressive rock, what is it then? A legit sub-genre of black metal? I've heard some similar parts on early Burzum and some Agalloch, but this sounds unique to me.

Yes

It's black metal. I don't see why it should stop being black metal just because it slows down?

I've done some research into blackened grindcore, here's some of the stuff that I found.
https://open.spotify.com/user/xenon82/playlist/3hX0pcIpocResX0nSnqpNN?si=BElg33gEQGyBsDW6kE4gww
Enjoy!

I'm starting a band with some friends under the name Metallica. We aspire to be pioneers of the sweeping new rock movement known as "plagarismcore"
All rights reserved

Hmmmm...
Hopefully these are close to what you're looking for
https://open.spotify.com/user/xenon82/playlist/0oNqt3irfXpAWhzxNeXrGS?si=h9Y4UTCRRsqrNChkjOvdWQ
https://open.spotify.com/user/xenon82/playlist/64dTmtwEdBI2pmdEObSifI?si=1znRa3djTRaPkdnM1ufH_A

Is Raw Black Metal a real genre?

I read the topic about this, but it was inconclusive. There are so many different point of views.
So, is it a genre? What's the real difference between raw bm and bm? Which are some the major bands/artists in the genre?

I think avant-garde is a label for something like "setting a new standard, playing in a new way, innovating". Experimental is an obvious label. In pratice they're almost the same thing, but there's a subtle difference of concepts.

you are missing the mark completely

prog war metal would be something like axis of advance... but i cant think of much else tbh

Dark metal seems like a real genre to me. And I hate it when people start saying that only those with suicidal thoughts can listen to it. I'm a cheerful dude and don't want to die any time soon.

I'm pretty sure literally no one has said that ever about dark metal.

EDIT: What bands are you thinking of as "dark metal?"

Blackgaze has a unique feature in terms of the rhythm as there is some kind of mellowness. And you don't see a lot of mellow textures when it comes to black metal aesthetics.

I've never heard a description of "Dark Metal" that was worth a damn. Usually it's said to be some nebulous collection of metal with black, death, doom, and gothic traits. I don't get where this comes from either since the record it was named from, Bethlehem's Dark Metal is simply a very doomy black metal record.

I agree that Bethlehem's Dark Metal could simply be labelled "doom/black/death metal" (or "blackened doom/death metal" or "doomed black/death metal" ou deathend... fuck this tags). I think no one would have thought calling them "dark metal" if it wasn't the name of the album.
But some think this album has a distinctive sound (this particular mix of doom, black and death metal with an occasional "gothic" mood). If there is to call a subgenre, i think early Samael pioneered this kind of sound.
But should we call "dark metal" a subgenre? Not sure as I don't think it's distinctive enough, and moreover not very influential. Their music is primarily doom metal with black metal vocals and mood, and I can heard that compressed and rotten death metal riffing too mixed together with the other elements. As for the "gothic" elements, they are just kinds of accoustic interludes with low and gloomy clear vocals. I think Bethlehem's Dark Metal is not so different sounding from the early 90's doom/death metal scene, but with that dominating black metal vibe added.

Light Metal just seems to be the resting place for all those '70s bands where people can't decide if they're metal or not. Light Metal already had a name, Hard Rock. Unnecessary genre.

You guys are having a discussion that started on literally page 1 of this thread. MA has a really good internal search engine that could have saved you a lot of time.

Well, what is written on page 1 doesn't imply it's the absolute truth and that you don't have to talk about that once again. And I didn't ask the question, just answered my opinion, which may be slightly different from "page 1". So, why not?

Avant-garde generally means being ahead of your time. So technically, avant-garde should refer to artists whom would be pushing the boundaries and setting up standards.

Experimental means experimenting, but not necessarly in an opening up paths new paths for others to follow kind of way. Experimental refers to more chaotic, less "trend starting" or "genre defining" music than avant-garde.

In practice, avant-garde is mostly associated with avant-garde black metal artists à la Arcturus or Sigh, or more humoristic and disjointed music like Mr. Bungle. Sometimes it's also used to describe most post-metal, progressive and atmospheric stuff like maudlin of the Well (or Kayo Dot) or Neurosis. I've also seen it used to describe bands like Agalloch because of how unique and truly avant-gardist they were.

As for experimental metal, I've almost always exclusively heard it being used for more technical, progressive and weird stuff, typically in more death metal or deathgrind territories.

I agree though that the boundaries are extremely vague...

Is epic speed metal real?

No

Opus, actually there are bands on MA under genres that are listed as "epic speed metal".

Well, this may be speed metal that sounds epic?
What's your point?

I know this one goes back a ways back, but going back to me speaking of the comparison between stoner and doom, I'm wondering how much longer this wave of "psychedelic not-really-doomy doom metal/rock" bands is going to go on before "psychedelic metal" becomes a common term. I've found that there are quite a few bands on here that are listed as "psych doom" that are actually quite mid-tempo, catchy, and energetic, enough that it would feel more applicable to just say psychedelic rock/metal than doom metal. It makes me think of how there were a lot of doom bands in the 90's that started incorporating gothic influences in the mix, until gothic metal became its own style... or how stoner rock influences started being incorporated into doom, until stoner metal became its own style.

I feel that Dark Legions Archive did the best job of explaining the differences. Metal is the genre. Black, Death, Heavy, and Speed are the main subgenres. Doom is Heavy Metal. Folk Metal and Power Metal are basically Speed with other elements added. What people call Thrash Metal is Speed. Actual Thrash is the hybrid style of Heavy Metal and Hardcore Punk sometimes called 'Crossover Thrash' (early DRI, Fearless Iranians...). Grindcore is not Metal, but a hybrid of Metal and Crossover Thrash.

'Epic Symphonic Black Metal' and 'Technical Death Metal' are not subgenres of Metal. Black Metal and Death Metal are the subgenres. 'Epic' and 'Symphonic' and 'Technical' are just adjectives.

I like this formula because the number of subgenres is static. It safeguards against fans saying 'X band created a new kind of metal!', which is almost never true, anyway. Confusing novelty with innovation is a big problem among metalheads and critics.

"Doom is Heavy Metal"
"Folk Metal... basically Speed"
"Grindcore is not Metal, but a hybrid of Metal and Crossover Thrash"
How can you have so many things just plain wrong?

Yeah, I actually stopped reading when he said "Doom is Heavy Metal". That can be said for the pioneering and super traditional sounding doom bands... but doom metal is still very much its own thing. "Folk Metal and Power Metal are basically Speed with other elements added" I can't even really give a proper response to that.

So, I know very, very little about death metal.

What are the death metal sub-genres that use pig squeals, and burping?