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MRmehman
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:34 pm
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Location: The Painted World of Ariamis
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:18 pm 
 

Does anyone know if there's a version of Burzum's Hvis Lyset Tar Oss with Et hvitt lys over skogen readded?
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tobewhooper
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:26 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:01 pm 
 

oldmetalhead wrote:
I didn't want to pollute the sludge band favorite's thread that has already gotten muddied, so I'm asking here in the appropriate place, what is the difference between sludge, doom, stoner and even post metal? The first three all seem to have in common, downtuned, slower played powerchords, where post rock/metal seems to have more atmospheric sonic's. I don't know, tell me.


"Doom metal" is often used as a general term that encompasses lots of subgenres (epic doom, death/doom, funeral doom, etc.) with common traits of slow tempos and a mournful/gloomy/despairing tone. When you see "doom metal" without a modifier, it usually refers to trad doom like Saint Vitus or Trouble, from which most of the aforementioned subgenres derive riffing styles.

Sludge and stoner can be harder to distinguish, especially since there's LOTS of cross-pollination. Stoner tends to be more blues-derived, often with elements of psychedelia, and more bouncy or shuffley, whereas sludge is more plodding and crushing. In stoner you're more likely to hear clean/ish vocals; sludge vocals are more commonly hardcore shouts. Listen to enough of both styles and you start to be able to hear the difference.

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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4653
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm 
 

Themes are also a big part of it. Most stoner tends to be about weed, the desert, retro stuff, etc.

Post metal is basically a mix of post rock and sludge with a big emphasis on crescendos, textures, etc.

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Kalimata
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 525
Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:30 am 
 

But if a sludge band has lyrics about weed, desert and retro stuff, do they become a stoner band?

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Hexenmacht46290
Has a GED in Gamercide

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:44 pm 
 

Kalimata wrote:
But if a sludge band has lyrics about weed, desert and retro stuff, do they become a stoner band?


They’d have to actually be stoner metal. The metal version of stoner rock(although, stoner rock that isn’t predominantly metal is still metal influenced). If they sound more overtly psychedelic hard rock influenced. The Sword is stoner metal, not sludge, but some songs sound like High on Fire(which is both). They also have a lot of Thin Lizzy influence, in the guitar melodies, they sound like the less pop, proto-NWOBHM Thin Lizzy material. They don’t have enough hardcore, to be sludge. Weedeater, on the other hand, is more sludge, than stoner metal. They have blues melodies, but I’d not consider them stoner metal. It’s not really going for stoner rock atmosphere, but they tour with those bands, because they sound kind of similar, and attract the same people.

The lyrical tropes are just stereotypes people stick to. Like death metal, and slasher violence, or black metal, and nuclear Christ sodomy.
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Vadara
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 484
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:24 am 
 

I find MA's genre distinctions concerning bm to be frankly baffling at times. The mods are very insistent on their M.O of "there has to be a MUSICAL distinction to be worthy of being called a genre" (i.e "Pirate metal isn't a real thing") but there are bands tagged "Raw Black Metal" and "Pagan Black Metal". I guess the latter is a more folksy take on BM but I have no idea why Raw is distinguished when as far as I can tell, it's just "black metal with comically terrible production".

I don't know why BM gets this many distinctions when, say, OSDM isn't distinguished at all from regular DM and getting Slam to be an acceptable genre tag was a struggle.

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thealtruist
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:41 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:19 pm 
 

Idk if this is the right place, but why this site doesn't use blackgaze as a description like many other big music sites? Iirc it was used here years ago, but my memory is not the same as it used to be...

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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
Posts: 334
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:29 pm 
 

Does thrash come under the extreme metal umbrella? I would argue that it doesn't or shouldn't since the term extreme metal first came to popularity, I believe, in the early-90s when two new extreme genres emerged - DM and BM. Thrash existed before these two new genres hit the metal mainstream and before the EM term arrived. Therefore, thrash should not be added retrospectively to EM. Secondly, thrash is just not that extreme compared to DM and BM, especially in the area of vocals (yelled or shouted rather than shrieked or growled) and in drumming (thrash was pre-the rise of blast-beat infestation).

What are people's views on this? I can be convinced otherwise if a good case can be made.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:11 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:03 am 
 

https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128738

Essentially, I consider it borderline, depending upon the band in question, with Slayer being the dividing line. Vocal style is a key determinant. Bands like Morbid Saint and Demolition Hammer, yes, bands like Anthrax and Megadeth, no.

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collingwood77
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:43 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:44 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128738

Essentially, I consider it borderline, depending upon the band in question, with Slayer being the dividing line. Vocal style is a key determinant. Bands like Morbid Saint and Demolition Hammer, yes, bands like Anthrax and Megadeth, no.


Thanks for the link, I didn't realize this topic had been covered in a previous thread. I will read it with interest. And your comment makes a lot of sense.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:06 pm 
 

Sorry if this is a question that's already been covered, but can someone explain alternative metal and what bands make up the genre? I don't think I've heard of an "alternative metal" band besides Faith No More.
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:55 pm 
 

In theory, it's bands that incorporate outside influences into metal (usually hip-hop, funk, grunge, post-hardcore, industrial, etc.) in a less overt, more oblique and somewhat more artistic way than nu-metal (sometimes the line is blurry and it's just a euphemism for bands that fans and critics think more favorably of), starting around the late 80s, the darker, more abrasive version of alternative rock. Yet it's usually more commercial and less experimental than avant-garde metal, and not as technical and showmanship-focused as progressive metal. Examples would be Faith No More, Primus, System of a Down, Helmet, Soundgarden, Rage Against the Machine, Tool, Alice In Chains, Deftones, Rammstein, etc. In practice, it's a dumping ground for every band that is heavier and more aggressive than mainstream and alternative rock bands, but don't quite fit M-A's riff-centric definition of metal, though some of them are here. It has become the "we don't know what else to call them" subgenre for bands with too amorphous a blend of elements to properly fit into any other particular subgenre. Mid-00s Katatonia is a good example.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:03 am 
 

Thanks, that makes sense. I know most of those bands so I guess I'm not missing out on anything.
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thePowermetalLynx
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:57 am
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Location: China
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:19 am 
 

Ah... so is Disney metal a thing? And do bands other than Twilight Force falls under that tag?
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:16 pm 
 

yeah most alternative metal post the initial bands that actually were metallic(Alice in Chains or Faith no More) are basically just alternative rock with a heavier guitar sound.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 pm 
 

Shirley666 wrote:
Ah... so is Disney metal a thing? And do bands other than Twilight Force falls under that tag?


I mostly hear it used to describe the last few Nightwish albums. I suppose any similar pageanty symphonic or power metal would fit as well.

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Auch
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 589
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:34 pm 
 

Shirley666 wrote:
Ah... so is Disney metal a thing? And do bands other than Twilight Force falls under that tag?


That sounds like a very clear joke-y, tongue-in-cheek genre description.

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EvergreenSherbert
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Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:21 am 
 

Can somebody explain post metal? I understand post rock, but I don't really get how it's related to post metal, or what the "post" means in either case. Some "post metal" bands I find sound like post rock, but more metal. Others sound like a completely different thing.

I guess it would really help if somebody could explain what "post" means in regards to a genre. Basically, when you slap "post" in front of the name of a genre, what does that imply about the style?
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Last edited by EvergreenSherbert on Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PansexualTrans
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:18 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:37 am 
 

What is "buttrock"?

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:54 pm 
 

PansexualTrans wrote:
What is "buttrock"?


Basically a derogatory term for post-grunge, particularly with a singing style that is derived from the vocal yarling associated with grunge bands like Pearl Jam and others. It applies to bands like Puddle of Mudd, Nickelback, Creed, Seether, Shinedown, Three Days Grace, etc.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:02 pm 
 

Yup, that. But bands called "butt rock" aren't necessarily bad. In fact, Seether is one of my favorite hard rock bands, and they get that label all the time.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:29 pm 
 

Yeah, I agree, I'm a 90s kid and grew up on that sort of stuff, so I don't mind some of it now and then. I didn't mention Breaking Benjamin or StainD, who would both also qualify, but I enjoy some of their earlier material especially. Or Alter Bridge is also not too far from that sound and they're close to the best mainstream rock band (kind of borderline metal some of the time, actually).

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:18 pm 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
Yeah, I agree, I'm a 90s kid and grew up on that sort of stuff, so I don't mind some of it now and then. I didn't mention Breaking Benjamin or StainD, who would both also qualify, but I enjoy some of their earlier material especially. Or Alter Bridge is also not too far from that sound and they're close to the best mainstream rock band (kind of borderline metal some of the time, actually).

I really like Staind's album Dysfunction
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PansexualTrans
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:18 am
Posts: 25
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:36 am 
 

LithoJazzoSphere wrote:
PansexualTrans wrote:
What is "buttrock"?


Basically a derogatory term for post-grunge, particularly with a singing style that is derived from the vocal yarling associated with grunge bands like Pearl Jam and others. It applies to bands like Puddle of Mudd, Nickelback, Creed, Seether, Shinedown, Three Days Grace, etc.

Ah, I see, thanks.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:55 pm 
 

EvergreenSherbert wrote:
Can somebody explain post metal? I understand post rock, but I don't really get how it's related to post metal, or what the "post" means in either case. Some "post metal" bands I find sound like post rock, but more metal. Other sound like a completely different think.

I guess it would really help if somebody could explain what "post" means in regards to a genre. Basically, when you slap "post" in front of the name of a genre, what does that imply about the style?


It essentially means the same as with post-rock with a bigger focus on atmosphere and textures than on actual riffs or melodies. The thing is that while all post metal gets all thrown together there are several distinct forms of it. As it is something you can apply to different metal genres. The 2 most well developed forms of it are post-sludge and post-black metal. There are some bands that make post versions of other genres but that is quite rare.

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:03 pm 
 

Thanks, that clears it up a little. Sorry about all the typos, I only noticed those just now. I should stop posting when I'm tired.

Do you know what "post" means with other genres? I'm especially wondering about what the hell post-hardcore is, that one still confuses me.
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TheBra1n
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:56 pm
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Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:03 pm 
 

Post-hardcore is a weird thing, from what I know it started as a term to describe hardcore music that broke the boundaries of traditional hardcore music by adding elements from other genres, but now it's used to describe vaguely punk-ish emo hard rock. Weird stuff

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:44 am 
 

TheBra1n wrote:
Post-hardcore is a weird thing, from what I know it started as a term to describe hardcore music that broke the boundaries of traditional hardcore music by adding elements from other genres, but now it's used to describe vaguely punk-ish emo hard rock. Weird stuff

Yeah, that makes sense
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:26 pm 
 

yeah post-hardcore is basically a wastebin taxon, bunch of different genres thrown together because defining genres is elitist or something.

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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

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Posts: 668
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:53 pm 
 

On various bands' about sections, I see some being labelled "atmospheric black metal" and others being labeled "ambient black metal" when, to me, the bands are really similar. How do you distinguish these two, if you do at all?
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Tulcakelume
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:09 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:51 pm 
 

Nocturnal_Evil wrote:
On various bands' about sections, I see some being labelled "atmospheric black metal" and others being labeled "ambient black metal" when, to me, the bands are really similar. How do you distinguish these two, if you do at all?

Not a definite answer, but for me ambient black metal is black metal with a huge influence of ambient music, or even the other way around. It can be ambient music with raspy vocals and faint tremolo guitars and the occasional drum beat. An example is Elffor in the early days before they made the full transtion into (atmospheric) black metal.
I consider atmospheric black metal to be much more grounded in black metal, and doesn't necessarily need to have ambient passages, as long as the guitars transpire a more ethereal sound than the regular black metal riffing.

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Nocturnal_Evil
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:00 am
Posts: 668
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:17 pm 
 

In response to the post above me, I very much agree. Ambient black metal is slightly different than atmospheric black metal, and I was asking to see if there was anything my personal definition was lacking.
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oldmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
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Location: Helltown, United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:59 pm 
 

Alrighty, well old man here needs clarification on definitions of core and it's sub styles. Mall, Math, Hard, Grind and whatever other terms. Examples of the differences would be welcomed.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:42 am 
 

As far as I can tell "mallcore" has nothing to do with other -core genres that are punk/hardcore-derived. It just seems to be the mods' pet derogatory term for nu-metal and mainstream hard rock. I think the "mall" part of it comes from seeing edgy teens in the 90s and 00s who would hang out at the mall and shop at Hot Topic and such, so the sort of bands that were popular with that crowd.

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Boychev
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:49 am
Posts: 100
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:39 am 
 

Can someone explain sludge to me?

I understand it when it applies to bands like Eyehategod, Crowbar, Melvins, and some of the post-metal ("atmospheric sludge") bands like Neurosis, Isis, Cult of Luna, Pelican, etc. Basically a sound that started its development with the B side of Black Flag's My War and went into a few different directions from there (Eyehategod were more Sabbath-y, Crowbar had more hardcore to them, Melvins were more grungy, the atmosludge bands went into a more post-rock direction and pretty much got rid of any semblance of Sabbath and doom metal...).

What I don't understand is how the term applies to bands like Mastodon, Baroness, and High on Fire for example. I haven't gone through everything they've done, but I don't hear the slow soul-crushing sludgy filth anywhere in their sound. How are they sludge?

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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Posts: 1271
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:28 am 
 

Mastodon was sludge metal back in albums like Remission and Leviathan. After that they became... I don't even what to call them now, prog rock I guess? But their sludge metal material sounded like this:


I haven't listened to a lot of it, but I think sludge metal is mostly characterized by low riffs and a dirty guitar tone. I'm not sure why Baroness is sludge metal though, someone else is gonna have to help us on that one. I've never listened to Baroness and though it was metal. I haven't listened to High on Fire at all, so I can't really speak for that one either.
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EvergreenSherbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:37 am 
 

I also need some help with something. What's the best way to describe why nu-metal isn't metal, to people who haven't listened to authentic metal?
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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:58 am 
 

It's probably easiest just to say that the riffs are too simple.

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Boychev
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:49 am
Posts: 100
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:32 am 
 

I think the most fair way to explain nu metal is that there are metal aspects to it and a whole bunch of other, non-metal aspects to it. Sometimes this means that bands go through various styles on their albums and there are both metal songs, and a lot of non-metal songs (e. g. Slipknot's debut has metal songs, but it also has a few in this noise rock / rap rock style, a few more industrial sounding numbers, some stuff that sounds more like hardcore/metalcore...). Sometimes a single nu metal song might have a metallic vibe to it, but overall is in more of a post-grunge or rap rock or whatever style than it is metal - this is the case with stuff like Deftones, Disturbed, Papa Roach, Godsmack, Stone Sour that's kinda sorta heavy but not really metallic. The guitars just aren't that much to the forefront of the songs and they play a different role than they do in metal where the whole point is to bludgeon you with cool riffs. Sometimes the bands just have absolutely nothing to do with metal - Linkin Park and stuff like that.

Really, the problem with nu metal as a genre is that it's an umbrella term for all heavy rock/metal music that went mainstream around 1998-2003. Chimaira's debut is nu metal and those elements were still a big part of their sound even on their following two albums, but they're seen as a metal band as opposed to Slipknot, even though there's a ton of overlap between the two. Fear Factory isn't that different than nu metal and inspired many of those bands, but they aren't lumped in with that scene because they're an older band with roots in the extreme metal scene. It's not so much a well-defined genre, as it is a marketing term, that's why it doesn't really belong among the "real metals". The nu metal stuff that does get accepted as metal just gets described with other terms like groove metal or industrial metal.

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LithoJazzoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:50 pm 
 

Boychev wrote:
Sometimes the bands just have absolutely nothing to do with metal - Linkin Park and stuff like that.


They neutered the guitars starting on the third album, but on the first two they have some pretty heavy and metallic riffs. Songs like "With You" and "By Myself" certainly don't sound like R.E.M. or Counting Crows.

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